Re: A Scientist 2:40 p.m. March 24, 2012Well said SPOT ON! The
protests/arguments against your post ring hollow and are merely more smoke and
@Mr.Bean;Are you aware that the favorite holy book in the US
condones the beating & killing of children for disobedience and it basically
considers women chattel? One could imagine that the Religion you're
insinuating is actually Christianity. And yes, they do appear benign at the
moment, but they've begun enacting laws forcing their religious beliefs on
non-believers all over the country. Many of them were passed just this last
legislative session.@VoR;You consistently post the most
hypocritical comments on these threads. @KirkRGraves;Not at the expense of the Liberty of Citizens who aren't of your
A voice of Reason“Congress shall make no law respecting an
establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”This First Amendment is a promise to the people of America saying the
government will not interfere with the beliefs and actions of the individual
citizen with regard to religion. It is not a cart blanch
declaration of freedom for churches, religious organizations or their business
operations. With some exceptions the government has pretty well stayed true to
it’s word. But we don’t allow human sacrifice or denial of the
American basic rights. If you believe that your church is the true
church of God, then you can also believe that your church can do no wrong and
therefore should have total unrestricted freedom.But if you
don’t believe in a God you would look at a church as something else. That
something else would be just another giant corporation competing with the other
giant corporations for the wealth of the world. I think that the
American experiment was sold to the people as a protection from the giant
competitors, both business and religion.
@Mr. Bean.A mystery religion. Another religious mystery. Hmmmmm.
No need to go off topic by talking about the conflict between church vs.
government. That is a great topic of discussion for another day.This article is talking about Individual Religious Freedom -- the right of
each individual to follow their own conscience and choose their own form of
religious beliefs and form of worship. Simply read the wording of
the 1948 Declaration of Human Rights regarding the individual freedom to choose
our own religion (signed by almost all countries of the world EXCEPT
Islamic-dominated or communist-dominated countries) VS. the 1990 Islamic
Declaration of Human Rights. The importance is what is MISSING from the Islamic
Declaration. There is no guaranteed right for an individual to change
religions. As Mohammad taught, anyone is allowed and encouraged to become
Muslim. But, once Muslim, that individual can never be allowed to change to
another belief. The Koranic/Sunnah punishment is death. That
INDIVIDUAL right is the one being discussed in the article. Those of us lucky
enough to live in countries which guarantee that right should try to find ways
to help those trapped in countries where even this fundamental freedom of
conscience doesn't exist.
Ultrabob,"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment
of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" or in denying
"the right of the people peaceably to assemble". Maybe you missed the
memo, but I have rights, just like you. You start taking away people's
rights, and peace can not exist.Group meetings, panels, conferences-
with purpose to find common agreement- for a political party, Religion, or
philosophical panel are all free expressions of the human voice. People
financially support such human organizations to peacefully, lawfully, and
democratically build on those ideas, as free expressing bodies of the human
voice. Limiting specific groups from peaceable assembling, using money, voicing
opinions in this democracy- is establishing a state system of beliefs and
opinions."The purpose of religion is the enslavement of men...
to gain control and ownership of wealth."Compare the LDS
Church's spending to Wall Street and the U.S. government. You may not agree
with all its dealings, but one would very quickly see how that accusation is
wildly without substance. Study up on the straw-man fallacy. Because until you
give your opponents the most plausible representation of their views- you
won't have credibility.
@AVoiceofReason,"There are certainly those who do- but just as
there are FLDS, catholics, jews, atheists, conservatives, liberals, and other
groups who do horrible things in the name of their beliefs or opinions." Of course he doesn't list LDS or Mormons here ... when A Voice of
Reason talks the Reason is always the BOM ... like others mentioned he can be so
close but always so far with his religious bias.Religious freedom
should be a core human right. Unfortunately, as you see in Utah probably more
significantly than any state in the country, religious groups put laws in place
that remove your religious freedom (granted you're not of that religion).
Having the freedom to choose which faith works for you is important. That is a
right that our next President will protect in America. Having and maintaining
the freedom to choose is a major tenant of the LDS faith which is not in any way
compromised by preaching the gospel. We reserve the right to share what we
have, but we allow all other faiths to also share. And then to make an informed
decision free from persecution.
Religious freedom for individuals. Good. Religious freedom for
churches, religion. Bad.The purpose of religion is the enslavement
of men. The reason for religion is to gain control and ownership of wealth.
Churches and religions are business operations. They have a product
for sale and engage is fierce competition with other churches and religions.
And like the business interest competition of nations, it often results in
war.Denied the force of government for their cause, American
religions had a sort of truce but because of the burning desire for conquest
even American churches are straining at the bit. The shrinkage of
the world and the close proximity of world religions, not party to the truce, is
kindling the need to become more aggressive and fortified in their competition.
It is likely that the war that ends the world will be a war of the religions and
not just a war of commercial profits. One of two things that might
save us is the actual appearance of God or the complete discounting of religious
notions and needs among men.
Mr. Bean,"The religion" you referenced does nothing. A
religion is made up of people and to generalize an entire people by a title-
while all members of that group do not in fact support the same actions, is
logically fallacious. It's called a "faulty generalization"My comparison of other belief systems or belief associations was simply
to show that 'just because members of an organization have done wrong,
doesn't mean you ban the organization altogether'. Banning a political
party would in effect be no different than a religion, thus the reference. FYI,
we do not have a clean record ourselves. If you look at violence and crime here
in comparison we aren't that much better and in some cases worse. We may
not use bombs, but killing is killing, and so on.Furthermore, from
your comment you implied that Muslims should not be permitted to be in the U.S.
or at very least worship freely in the U.S. - Is this your opinion?I
clearly used "religion" to refer to people maintaining specific beliefs.
Perhaps you missed this. I used the word liberally, but only to illustrate a
@ A voice of Reason: "Choosing to get pregnant is a right, not to use
abortion as birth control. People want their own views to be justified and
accepted by people, even if they have to force it against our will."Do you not see the irony of your statement?As long as it is
something you agree with, it is a right - but if it is not something you agree
with, then it is not a right and someone is forcing their will on you.I have read several of your posts and it always amazes me that you can be so
close and yet so far.When you pass a law prohibiting me from doing
something, you are forcing your will upon me. When I engage in a legal
behavior, my participation in that behavior in no way forces anything on you -
nor does it prohibit anything to you.How can you be so close and yet
so unable to go that last little bit of reason to understand that?
Re:AVoiceofReasonNobody cares what conservatiives think about
abortion anymore. We've learned the conservative's world view is that
contraceptives cause sexual immorality. They care less for the unborn than they
do about a fantasy world where people only have sex when they want to have
children. I can hardly wait for part 2.
@VOAwhy do you get to decide if something is a right aren't rights
determined by the constitution? how is your desire to control others behavior
not trying to dictate? Is it your body? why is it your business? how can those
that think such decisions should be left up to the individual dictators?
@A voice of Reason:"While there is a lot of truth in your
comment, if it is referring to Muslims, or Islam- then I would have to
disagree."You can decide which religion.... but the religion I
referenced does, indeed, murder the infidel, honor kill errant daughters, and
whip their wives into submission. The point being, is if this religion is to be
protected by the Constitution, we're in deep trouble. "There are certainly those who do- but just as there are FLDS, catholics,
jews, atheists, conservatives, liberals, and other groups who do horrible things
in the name of their beliefs or opinions."The religions you
mention might have weird tenets but none do the abhorrent things as listed
above. Atheists, conservatives, and liberals are not religions."There is a religion invading the United States right now- it's
called Relativism."To my knowledge that's not a religion
either... at least one protected by the 1st Amendment."This is
the only 'religion' I would be concerned about."Your
fears are unfounded.
@Blue,LDS believe very much in secular government. It is nearly a
tenant of the faith. However, secular government does not mean immoral
populous. Secular government simply means that the government does not promote
religion. Government should still promote the viewpoint of it's citizens.
Mr. Bean,While there is a lot of truth in your comment, if it is
referring to Muslims, or Islam- then I would have to disagree. I do not believe
Muslims are some sort of 'enemy'. There are certainly those who do-
but just as there are FLDS, catholics, jews, atheists, conservatives, liberals,
and other groups who do horrible things in the name of their beliefs or
opinions.There is a religion invading the United States right now-
it's called Relativism. The problem is that relativists are really arguing
for dictatorship and essentially a state religion (what they claim they are
fighting) by claiming rights to what belongs to others, rights to exemption from
law, rights to exemption from democratic process- all to negate the votes of
others in favor of their own power over others.State recognition
belongs to the people to decide, it isn't a right exempt from democratic
process. Choosing to get pregnant is a right, not to use abortion as birth
control. People want their own views to be justified and accepted by people,
even if they have to force it against our will. This is the only
'religion' I would be concerned about.
The instant Santorum-type evangelicals are in control and start moving to impose
a strictly Baptist "Bible-based" curriculum on public schools and
purging federal employees of anyone not properly "born again," this
newspaper will discover the value of secular government.
Imagine there's no Heaven It's easy if you try No hell
below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for
today Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to
do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all
the people Living life in peace You may say that I'm a
dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll
join us And the world will be as one Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can No need for greed or hunger A brotherhood
of man Imagine all the people Sharing all the world You
may say that I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope
someday you'll join us And the world will live as one John Lennon RIP
@A Scientist: "What, exactly, do you mean by 'religious freedom?'
The freedom to blow up the infidels in gods name?"Good question,
Scientist.There is a religion on the face of this earth today whose
tenets include the killing of infidels and errant children and the beating into
submission certain family members. Should that religion be protected under our
Constitution and be allowed to flourish in the home of the brave and the land of
the free? We need to decide very quickly because the US is, as we speak, being
invaded by such a religion. They appear rather benign at the present because
they are a fairly small minority. But wait a few years and the problem will be
upon us like odor on a skunk.
Let's try this religious freedom thing in utah.
@A ScientistAssuming your infidel comment is item #1, here goes.1)
Clearly not acceptable. Anyone who believes they have the right to kill or
oppress another because of religious beliefs has twisted their own religious
into something evil.2) See as #1.3) Since each person in this
country has the obligation to vote according to their conscience, it is
reasonable that in an area where one religion represents a high density, that
individuals belonging to that religion would tend to be elected.4) You
statement doesn't actually make sense; I think what you are implying is
that tax exemptions for religious organizations are bad. You are wrong, and I
wish I had enough space to explain why.5) See #3. If a group of people
all belong to the same religion, odds are high they will share some common
political ideologies. They absolutely have a right to come together to express
those ideologies.6) Do we as a nation want to have a federal Department
of Theology? Keep the two completely separate. While not a perfect solution
and some will abuse it, the alternatives are MUCH worse.
I have students m my classes who have had to flee their country because they
don't belong to the correct faith. They literally face being shot down. Its
important to note that this is not being done by a "godless state" by
but by a state controlled by one religion. I think the founders of the
constitution knew what they were doing when they kept church and state separate.
@ A Scientist 2:40 p.m. March 24, 2012**When religion wants special
rights and exceptional treatment, then religion is trying to scam the public by
passing favoritism off as "religious freedom".**Agreed 100%.
Succinct & accurate about religion playing the victim when people see
through their smoke & mirrors.
If religious people want to preserve their "religious freedom", they are
going to have to be more specific.What, exactly, do you mean by
"religious freedom?"The freedom to blow up the infidels in
gods name?The freedom to deny equality before the law to people who
are not members of your religion?The freedom to vote as a
homogeneous bloc so that only "believers" are serving in positions of
political power?The freedom to use public money for tax exemptions
on religious properties and businesses, and to exploit public property to your
religion's advantage?The freedom to buy lobbyists,
"cultivate political offices", and otherwise use religious influence to
manipulate the political and governmental processes?The freedom to
deny employees and workers access to insurance benefits for things the religion
does not like? And the freedom to operate businesses but be exempt from the good
and decent laws protecting employees of all other, non-religious
organizations?When religion wants special rights and exceptional
treatment, then religion is trying to scam the public by passing favoritism off
as "religious freedom".
The Middle-East region is lost, "even as chaff is driven before the wind, or
as a vessel is tossed about upon the waves, without sail or anchor, or without
anything wherewith to steer her".However many generations ago,
their fathers have abandoned the true principles they once held to be true. The
entire peoples of those areas of the world have lost their way and rejected
anyone trying to help them find a better way. Just as concerning is that many
within our own country are abandoning the basic principles that this country was
founded on- abandoning democracy and freedom in favor of enforcing their own
laws on everyone else. Sadly, many may end up just as lost."We
believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and
held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of
conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of
life."Some people like to twist that verse to mean what it
doesn't- but we all know right from wrong, and those wanting to know the
full truth can receive it- Ether 4:11