Faith

Defending the Faith: Life after death is a joyful fact

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  • RockOn Spanish Fork, UT
    April 14, 2014 1:43 p.m.

    I don't care what RanchHand and Red think except as a mild conversation to know another person. Such vigor in defending nothing doesn't leave much. On the other hand, I know Ken and Debbie McCarty. Our daughter was best friends with Sarah. They were on our Russia cruise. There is MORE to this story, more that matters but Ken and Debbie and others like them don't discuss these sacred matters with people whose goal in life is to ridicule others. Death is a sacred experience. Two of our sons died and we encountered experience together that still leave us stunned as to the power and magnitude of the reality of God, and a post-mortal life. Thank you Dan Petersen for sharing this sacred time.

  • MHughes Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 28, 2013 3:32 p.m.

    That is a very beautiful account. Thank you very much for sharing.

  • O'really Idaho Falls, ID
    March 5, 2012 1:22 p.m.

    @ Joggle The idea that there is no God or afterlife is a "belief" also because there is no proof that they don't exist. So then, where does that burden of support fall?

  • Bill in Nebraska Maryville, MO
    March 5, 2012 12:38 p.m.

    JOggle, as stated earlier whn one says I have the proof and her it is, take it or leave it. The difference is that when a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints states that I know we are the only true and living Church of JESUS CHRIST on earth. This basically in all manner states that all the others may have some truth to them but WE have all the truth. You then state that if I prove you wrong then you go back to faith. No where has anyone actually proven the LDS Church wrong on its claim. They disagree very much to it but they can't prove otherwise. The other is that through scriptures and others we have proven our point more often than not. Does this make us better than the others no. In fact, if you really looked at the true doctrine of the Church you will find that the majority of church members will fall in the second kingdom, the Telestial World. Why, do you think this is? Life after death isn't a fact nor is it not fiction. It is what it is when we all see it. Joseph Smith stated that many of us if we saw the third kingdom would die just to get there. To me this means more than anything and gives of hope for the world to come. Hope is greater than no hope at all.

  • Moontan Roanoke, VA
    March 5, 2012 12:30 p.m.

    @Joggle ... Nice post. One of the better ones I've seen hereabouts.

    I've no issues with your 2nd paragraph, but a comment or two on the 1st.

    Re your sentence "Most atheists research religious belief ... before coming to their conclusions." If you used "Some" for "Most" I would agree with you. I think 'most' atheists base their conclusions on feelings - always a danger. Psychology plays a huge role in the structure of beliefs, too.

    There is nothing about a believer's belief in an afterlife that diminishes the importance of this life. On the contrary. Such a belief makes the importance of this life all the more so. The atheist's focus on this life is therefore no more laudable than the believer's, who can also give reasons why this life is so important, whereas the atheist cannot. But, as you allude to in your 2nd para, the truth or falsehood of a belief cannot be established the focus one gives this or the next life.

    You say "Believers fail to meet this burden [of support or proof] and thus fail to provide good reasons to accept their claims." Oh, not at all. I'm thinking you don't really mean that. :-)

    How about Plato's Allegory of the Cave? Or, even better and still discussed after 900 years, Saint Aquinas' 'Five Proofs'? Or the excellent essays by C.S. Lewis in "God In The Dock"? And lets not forget the written reports of the original disciples. It seems to me that the issue isn't 'is there proof of God' but, rather, 'what proof would you accept?' and here I'd go back to the William James' paraphrase I made in my 1st post.

    @Gramma ... Joggle presents intelligent, respectful opinions contrary to ours. Good for him or her. But you are correct - many people commenting here are outright cruel and disrespectful. You have to wonder about the psychology of such folk. Anger always indicates something deeper.

  • Joggle Clearfield, UT
    March 5, 2012 11:12 a.m.

    @Moontan

    Actually it isn't easy to dismiss the concept of an afterlife at all. Many atheists would be happy if that was true, but there is nothing that personally tells us it is. Most atheists research religious belief, other knowledge, and their own experiences/feelings thoroughly before coming their conclusions. Certainly atheists would like if there was life after death, but still they must base their conclusions ultimately on their own experiences and knowledge.....not somebody elses....since they could be wrong. Atheists love life and are pained when a loved one is lost, but believe it is THIS life that is important and we give THIS life meaning instead of being concerned about an afterlife that may or may not be true. Perhaps the most basic reason for not believing is the absence of good reasons for doing so. Once a person gets beyond the bias in favor of belief they may realize something critical: the burden of support lies with those claiming that religious belief is necessary or believable. Believers fail to meet this burden and thus fail to provide good reasons to accept their claims. Even if religious believers don't intend it, it seems that in practice "faith and feelings" is simply pulled out whenever attempted arguments based on reason and evidence fail.

    Do we decide based on whose faith is the strongest, assuming we can measure that? No, the strength of a belief is irrelevant to its truth or falsehood. Do we decide based on whose faith has changed their lives the most or their personal feeling that could be wrong? No, that's no indication of something being true. Do we decide based on how popular their belief is? No, the popularity of a belief has no bearing on whether it's true or not. If three different people each make the same "faith" argument on behalf of their beliefs, we have no way to evaluate their claims to determine which is more likely correct than the others. What it does mean is that claims about the truth of religion or the existence of some god cannot be defended to a skeptical nonbeliever on the basis of faith. It means that faith is not an adequate or reasonable defense of any belief or belief system which purports to have any empirical connection to the reality which we all share. Faith is also an unreliable basis for singling out one religion and claiming that it is true while all other religions, as well as any competing secular philosophies, are false.

    @Gramma
    Perceived ridicule may be nothing more than disagreement, but some people take it as ridicule even it was not meant as such. I have no problem with religious beliefs bringing hope and solace to people. However, if faith is strong....then no amount of disagreement will destroy that.

  • Gramma Sugar City, ID
    March 5, 2012 10:12 a.m.

    In reply to windsor and Moontan, what I don't understand about certain commenters is their desire to disparage and denigrate the beliefs of others. I can certainly understand (intellectually) their unbelief. I just cannot understand their wanting to mock another person for believing something that brings that person comfort and solace. It seems to me to be very mean-spirited, even cruel. Since neither side can "prove" their point of view, it is equivalent to seeking out someone whose loved one suffers from cancer and has a 50-50 chance of survival and insisting on telling them that there is no hope, so they should give up right now. Why do they want to cause pain? And if someone else says, "There is hope! My experience is that a cure is possible!" why do some want to ridicule that person's experience?

  • Moontan Roanoke, VA
    March 5, 2012 8:33 a.m.

    @windsor...I don't speak for those whom your post addresses, but I know many such people.

    The love of life doesn't prove there is an afterlife, they would say. Nor does the pain of losing a loved one. Atheists aren't necessarily happy that it all ends, that everything is ultimately pointless. Many wish the concept of an afterlife was true. They aren't really good with it all ending ... they just don't believe it doesn't end.

    So it seems to me that the real question is 'why'? Probably many answers, but I find two recurring frequently: many people filter concepts through the self, accepting and rejecting propositions based upon their ability to understand and explain them; and, 2) was it William James (??) who said that arguments for the existence of God (and by inference, the afterlife) have no effect simply because some people just don't believe in a God whose existence the arguments aim to prove. No argument or proof would work for such people.

  • windsor City, Ut
    March 5, 2012 3:50 a.m.

    The two types of comments here is something that is ever-present in my thinking:

    The two types of people there seem to be.

    Those who hope, who believe, who say there is evidence life after death
    and those who don't hope, don't believe, say there is no life after death--who say dead is dead, and that religion is a fictitious, invented-by-man institution.

    As one who has an atheist close in my life, (who will not discuss this, other than to say the same things as RanchHand, Red Corvette and others)this question fascinates and puzzles me endlessly.

    As a believer and one who hopes, its easy for me to see why I hope: I have people I love. I love life. I want those things to not end with death, and for them to continue. Based completely in emotion, I know.

    But for those who are on the opposite side, my honest, sincere question is WHY and HOW???

    Why is it SO EASY for you to just dismiss it all?
    Do you not love life?
    Do you not have people you love that it would pain you to lose if there is nothing after death?
    HOW can you not care? (I am not being contentious here, I am really, really wondering!)
    How can you just accept, and be happy with, the notion that your short time will be up soon and that everything wonderful and important in life means absolutely nothing??

    Even if we believers are delusional, I can totally see how and why we would be.

    What I can't see is how non-believers can find it so easy and painless to face the prospect of it all ending, and being good with that.

    HOW and WHY can and do you do that?? I would love to know your thoughts, RanchHand, Red Corvette and others.

  • O'really Idaho Falls, ID
    March 4, 2012 10:30 p.m.

    For those dissing faith in the afterlife or faith itself, I imagine that giving up on cold hard facts to guide you through life would be a scary deal. There is security in believing only after seeing. But if you were to give faith a try, ease your tight fisted hold on what you can only see with your eyes or touch with your hands, you'll find greater strength and peace of mind than you ever thought possible.

    I challenge you to allow yourself to explore the possibility that there is a Greater Being in charge here and has it all under control despite the fact- a definite fact that is doesn't look that way sometimes. Allow yourself to enjoy the possibility that there truly is life after death and that it doesn't all end here. THere is a God in Heaven who loves you more than you could ever imagine. Don't be afraid to explore it mentally and give your mind permission to rest there in that thought for awhile. Then see if you don't have a greater sense of well being and calm and happiness, even for a minute. I dare you to go that far. Who knows where this novel idea might take you? Perhaps to a happier, healthier state of mind than you're currently in.

  • Raeann Peck Salt Lake City, UT
    March 4, 2012 10:16 p.m.

    So grateful for our loving Father in Heaven, and our Savior Jesus Christ for the hope and promise of eternal life. Thank you for such beautiful affirmation.

  • JSB Sugar City, ID
    March 4, 2012 10:02 p.m.

    People can contend with and even mock those that have had spiritual experiences. Just because someone isn't close enough to the spirit to recognize it, doesn't mean the spirit isn't there. In spite of what skeptics might say, I cannot deny the reality of my own experience.

  • Bill in Nebraska Maryville, MO
    March 4, 2012 8:26 p.m.

    I understand what LVIS said andIagree with him. However, I also agree that there is much in this life we do not understand that must be taken on faith, and faith alone. There are many on this board that has had a spiritual awakening based on Moroni's promise. Then there are those who say they haven't therefore the promise is false. Either it is true or it isn't, but to dismiss it all together is just as wrong. President Packer in his last General Conference talk explains very well how the Holy Ghost talks to us to KNOW its truth.

    Some like Brahmabull corrects us by saying it is belief, that you really can't KNOW yet we all do say we KNOW the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Days Saints is the only true and living Church of Jesus Christ on earth today. There are others like Sharrona who argues against the LDS Church in all its glory as unchristian. Then there are those who have no faith at all. In the end, what matters is what is in each of our own hearts that allows us to be who we are. It is the at our deaths that all is revealed, whether truthful or not. If it comes down to it the only one who knows for sure is our Heavenly Father and it is up to us to find out for ourselves. As stated Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is truth.

  • LVIS Salt Lake City, UT
    March 3, 2012 3:07 p.m.

    Independent Woman
    West Jordan, UT
    LVIS, Where did you get the idea that MORMON TIMES is a secular paper? The name itself should tell you something. Besides the Deseret News is owned by the Church which theoretically can print anything it deams appropriate. Granted other things are in that section, but that doesn't make either the paper or the Mormon Times section secular in all things.

    Point taken. However, I still believe the quotes I reference are just as valid--whatever the publication. To discuss 'happenings in the church' is one thing. To discuss spiritual items of a personal nature are best reserved for blogs, conversations with close friends, or more intimate settings, etc. But, to each her own, I suppose.

  • hc1951 Bend, OR
    March 3, 2012 1:17 p.m.

    Like Kirjsten, since my son died 2 years ago from brain cancer, there have been days when "enduring to the end" was all I could do, at least in part because I know George is there, on the other side. Have I "seen" him? Not exactly, but I know when he's nearby, checking up on me. I know he's still tall (6'5", 300lbs), still funny, and wears white. For me it has been like feeling him beside or in front of me, observed with some kind of other-worldly peripheral vision, tangible in a truly personal way. When I feel his loss the most I often feel his arm around me, assuring me he can wait as long as I have to.

  • Independent Woman West Jordan, UT
    March 3, 2012 12:17 p.m.

    LVIS, Where did you get the idea that MORMON TIMES is a secular paper? The name itself should tell you something. Besides the Deseret News is owned by the Church which theoretically can print anything it deams appropriate. Granted other things are in that section, but that doesn't make either the paper or the Mormon Times section secular in all things.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    March 3, 2012 11:50 a.m.

    PapaCorn--
    "You see, yours and RanchHand's thoughts are also beliefs. You have no proof that there actually ISN'T eternal life. You're relying on your own hubris as proof there really isn't anything after death."

    Agree. What many fail to understand is that it takes just as much faith NOT to believe as it does to believe.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    March 3, 2012 9:08 a.m.

    RE Iron@ClayJoseph, of course, was at least one hundred and seventy years ahead of science who have only recently discovered the quantum, string theory of discrete particles of energy and matter?

    In 2 Cor 12:2,4, The point Paul is making is that any revelation that comes from outside the Bible (extra-biblical revelation) is not a reliable source, and as Paul says, "There is nothing to be gained by it." This does not mean that his out-of-body experience wasn't real, only that he is not relying on it to give him truth or really to benefit himself or other people in any way.

    An involuntary out-of-body experience or a near-death experience, like the Apostle Paul's, should be treated in the same way as a dream in the life of a ChristianÂan unexplained phenomenon that may make a good story, but does not give us truth. The only place we find absolute truth is in the Word of God. All other sources are merely subjective.

  • PapaCorn Springville, UT
    March 3, 2012 1:12 a.m.

    Dennis,

    I find it funny how people such as yourself, in fact one from Harwich, MA, find the need to read a newspaper from Utah and to make agnostic or atheistic comments. Must have a lot of time on your hands that you feel is best spent trying to denigrate the faith of others. You are right, humans are VERY odd.

    Organized religion is simply a man-made institution? Prove it. Impart your grand knowledge to us that there isn't life after death. With your limitless erudition I challenge you to prove to us all what Mr Petersen and Ms Youngberg said were based on dreams, thoughts and hopes.

    You see, yours and RanchHand's thoughts are also beliefs. You have no proof that there actually ISN'T eternal life. You're relying on your own hubris as proof there really isn't anything after death.

  • iron&clay RIVERTON, UT
    March 2, 2012 11:27 p.m.

    Ooseph Smith stated that all spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

    Joseph, of course, was at least one hundred and seventy years ahead of science who have only recently discovered the quantum, string theory of dicrete particles of energy and matter.

  • Kith HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA
    March 2, 2012 10:20 p.m.

    LVIS has a point. Experiences such as this article and many of those shared in comments should generally be kept within immediate family.

    Ranch, You wouldn't receive an answer that it is not true, you may receive no answer however. This generally happens because people don't read the BoM and ask with the right mindset, which I described in my previous post. I forgot to mention you must ask in faith, even if all you can do is desire faith, that if he is there and it is true you will receive an answer. This answer may be very subtle, so if you were to do this pay close attention to how you feel.

  • iron&clay RIVERTON, UT
    March 2, 2012 10:14 p.m.

    Daniel Peterson's article does not mention the opposite condition that exists for those who die with a devout belief in the erroneous philosophy that there is no dreator and therefore no afterlife and did not excercise faith and repentance while they had the oportunity while in this mortal probationary sphere.

    This opposite condition is a state of misery, the consequence of disobedience to God's law. And to be tormented by the one who FLATTERED them to believe that there was no creator and no afterlife. The adversary desires that all those who received a body to be tested in this life might eventually be miserable like unto himself.

    There is a judgement at the time the spirit leaves the body.

  • SoCalChris Riverside, CA
    March 2, 2012 10:14 p.m.

    I've heard or read a number of stories of this nature. Some of them ring true and some don't. This one definitely does. Thanks for sharing it.

    Perfectly appropriate -- this is the Faith section after all.

  • RockOn Spanish Fork, UT
    March 2, 2012 4:45 p.m.

    We know the McCartys and Sarah. Great family and Sarah was a terrific young lady.

    Her death was surrounded by many other such incidents. One has to wonder how many coincidences it takes to equal a trend... How many trends equal a verified experience... How many experiences equal a reasonable theory. How many reasonable theories that have parallelism equal a truth. And how far away from truth is a fact? For some, no amount of experiences are worthy of "fact" labels. Except for areas of their interest. Yet I wonder how many seek to discard a truth and replace it with nothing, bring little value to life.

    Thanks, Dan, for sharing that story with others. It will resonate with those open to truth.

  • LVIS Salt Lake City, UT
    March 2, 2012 3:25 p.m.

    Not really sure what the point of the article is. Those that believe believe, those that don't don't. Even if we concede the events discussed are absolutely without question, it may be helpful to be reminded of a couple of comments made by others:

    "It is my conviction that experiences of a special, sacred nature are individual and should be kept to oneself" --Boyd K. Packer

    "If you have had a vision or manifestation, it is your duty to keep it to yourself; it is not for the church (and I would add most assuredly not for the public) and I advise you not to repeat it." --Joseph Fielding Smith

    In the LDS church, there is a fairly vocal hue and cry whenever one of its teachings or beliefs is subject to ridicule and mockery--intended or not. And yet, articles like this, by a member of the LDS church, in a secular publication, only serves to invite critics to comment. I wouldn't expect this to be mentioned in a church testimony meeting, much less in the press.

  • Schwa South Jordan, UT
    March 2, 2012 2:57 p.m.

    I think by definition something that requires faith cannot be considered a fact.

  • Cats Somewhere in Time, UT
    March 2, 2012 2:34 p.m.

    I feel so sorry for those posters that have lost their faith, find the whole idea of life after life funny and are so tragically lost. You don't have to be this unhappy, you know. You can find faith and true happiness. You don't have to keep spending your life in this kind of emptiness.

    God is our father, Christ is his son, the Holy Ghost is with us and Eternal Life is real, true and factual. I feel so sorry for those who don't know this. It's so sad when someone is so desperately trying to convince him/herself that they have to spend all their time attacking those who have true knowledge and joy in faith. I guess misery loves company.

    Once again...you don't have to be this unhappy. You can find true joy in the truth.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    March 2, 2012 2:18 p.m.

    A warm feeling in the chest (emotion) does not verify fact. Never has, never will.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    March 2, 2012 2:17 p.m.

    Fact or belief? There is quite a difference.

  • Thinkman Provo, UT
    March 2, 2012 11:51 a.m.

    I hope that there is life after this life. I believe there is despite no longer believing in the LDS church after growing up in it, preaching its teachings on my mission and marrying in the temple.

    I have read many Near Death Experiences (NDE) and one common thread runs through them all and that there is something on the other side.

    I hope so.

  • newwest Ferron, UT
    March 2, 2012 11:28 a.m.

    Ranch: "Near-death is NOT death; what they experience could be nothing more than the neurons in their brains firing at random as their bodies shut down."
    And your whole life might be nothing more than a grasshopper's daydream as he clings to a stalk of wheat somewhere. Ever considered that possibility?
    We can play "what-if" endlessly. But the fact is, people do have near-death experiences that confirm a belief in the after life. A friend had such an experience while flying to the hospital in an air-med chopper. He said, "I have to take many things on faith, but I absolutely know that death is not the end."
    Firing neurons? You'll never convince him of that.

  • dalefarr South Jordan, Utah
    March 2, 2012 10:25 a.m.

    Thank you Daniel. I am as cynical as they come, but your article softened my heart. Thanks again.

  • Independent Woman West Jordan, UT
    March 2, 2012 9:56 a.m.

    I keep thinking about a talk, also by Daniel Peterson, which I heard on a CD. He said that you cannot prove the Book of Mormon is true, the Church is true, etc. because that is not the way it works. God has made it so that we have to exercise faith. True, you can dispute what someone else accepts on faith, but much of science, etc. can also be disputed because research is ongoing and sometimes "proves" something different than they thought before.

    So the only way we can deal with these truths is by exercising faith, which will give us the assurance we seek. If we pray, and have faith that our prayers will be answered God will give us the answers, and that is all we need. If you don't believe, don't try to convince me to follow your way of thinking. Let's just agree to disagree.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    March 2, 2012 8:18 a.m.

    Re: I came to tell you that heaven is beautiful. Sarah looked happy and beautiful, Don said, and healthier than he had ever seen her.
    Paul warns against this,He was caught up to the third heaven, or Paradise(2 Cor 12:2). Verse 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is NOT permitted to speak.

    The Jews in Paul's day referred to the, first heaven as the place where the birds fly, the second heaven as the place where the sun, the moon and the stars resided, and the third heaven as the place of God's abode.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    March 2, 2012 8:08 a.m.

    Kith says:

    "Sure we can. Not the Church's fault you want to pick and choose which evidence you'll accept. If you read The Book of Mormon with an open mind, with real intent to discover the truth, and humbly ask our Father in heaven if it is true, He will answer you."

    ===

    What if I do all of that and the answer I get is not the one you expect? What if the answer I get is "It is NOT true"? Then what?

    @Firefly;

    Near-death is NOT death; what they experience could be nothing more than the neurons in their brains firing at random as their bodies shut down.

  • androol Queen Creek, AZ
    March 2, 2012 7:38 a.m.

    I had a similar experience a few years ago when my Mom died. She was ill and we knew her time was short, but we had figured she had a week or so left. Early in the Morning I could have sworn I heard my Mom call my name, just like she did when I was a kid and she was waking me up for school. I half arose and my Mom was sitting at the foot of my bed and told me it was time for her to go, but I should not be sad because she was ready and was no longer in pain. She told me she loved me, was proud of me and she would always not be far away from me. As she said that to me my phone rang and it was my Dad telling me Mom had taken a turn for the worse during the night and I needed to get over to their house because she looked to be in the final stages of dying. I quickly drove over in time to see her last breath. Exactly one week after she died she was again in my room and told me that she was good, and not to be sad about her dying because she could finally do things she had not been able to do in a long time because of her being sick. She again told me she loved me and that we would see each other again some day.

  • m.g. scott LAYTON, UT
    March 2, 2012 7:31 a.m.

    Re: RanchHand

    There are a lot of places that no one has ever been to or seen that can be verified or factual. Most of quantum physics for example. As one poster noted, you may have never had a spiritual experience, but many have. You cannot say that what they experienced is not verified or factual any more than I can say whether or not you have been to Spain. If you say you haven't I'll believe you. And by the way, emotions are factual. Just hard to prove to skeptics.

  • Dennis Harwich, MA
    March 2, 2012 6:07 a.m.

    Life after death has no relevance to Mormonism or any other religion. Organized religion is simply a man-made institution. I'm always amused at how dreams, thoughts, hopes and belief always translate into fact, visions, angels and revelation. Humans are very odd.

  • Baccus0902 Leesburg, VA
    March 1, 2012 4:13 p.m.

    A beautiful experience/story ! Thank you for sharing!

    Have been many years since I stopped believing in organized religion. One of my biggest contention with all religions is that in my view, they diminish God and Science in order to support their limited understanding of the universe.

    These stories not only touch the realm of spirituality but physics as well.

    My only certainty in knowledge is to know that I know and understand very little of how this whole thing works.

    In my life I have learned that my five senses are not enough to perceive what happens around me.

    What I have also learned is that my body and mind reacts to certain spiritual stimuli, because I cannot define them, does it mean they don't exist? I don't think so.

    Our existence is wonderfully complex.

    and again...a wonderful story.

  • YGradFan CENTERVILLE, UT
    March 1, 2012 3:09 p.m.

    @RanchHand

    "Fact: Spain exists, though I've never been there to see it myself, I know people who have been there."

    Many people could say the same thing about the next life. "Life after death exists, though I've never been there to see it myself, I know people who have been there." Firefly123 is just one example. We've never been there, but his/her son has, and has as much validity as those that you know that have been to Spain. The fact that you don't want to believe in it is your choice, and has nothing to do with fact.

  • Brahmabull sandy, ut
    March 1, 2012 1:45 p.m.

    While I do think this is a great story and I believe that those involved encountered what they say - there really is no way to verify if it happened. It sounds to me like one of those three nephite stories - stories that have been embellished, made up, or altered after the fact. 3 nephite stories have been going around for years, and none of them can be given much credence but are told in church as if they are fact. Still a nice story though and I hope it is the truth.

  • BYU Track Star Los Angeles, CA
    March 1, 2012 1:29 p.m.

    Looks like the DN is not telling its local readers about the recent Daniel Pearl baptizm in a local temple. Here is an interesting quote form the Article DN readers will find interesting...An the Church's PA office has some serious PR work to do ..Again

    The quote:

    Reached by phone, Pearl's mother, Ruth, said she and her husband were dismayed when informed of the ceremony by a reporter from the Boston Globe, which first reported the news.

    "We realize that the Mormon ministers who baptized our son posthumously meant to offer him salvation in the most honorable way they know how," she said in statement. "To them we say: We appreciate your good intentions but rest assured that Danny's soul was redeemed through the life that he lived and the values that he upheld. He lived as a proud Jew, died as a proud Jew and is currently facing his creator as a Jew -- blessed, accepted and redeemed."

    Looks like somebody is going to called before a church court to account for this OOPS.

    This has been reported in the Boston Globe, the New York Times and the LA Times - to name a few newspapers.

  • Firefly123 Mapleton, UT
    March 1, 2012 1:25 p.m.

    Oh, Ranch Hand, I am sure you would like to believe nobody has ever died and come back "with whom we can talk and ask questions" when the simple fact is, it happens. The event in clinical terms is called an NDE or "Near Death Experience" and with the extreme measures ER's go through to bring people back to life these days, it happens more and more.

    People who don't want their narrow paradigm challenged always tell me it was the effect of drugs on my sons brain. Well, they weren't there. The never talked to him. We did, and we know things they'll never be able to accept, and I'm okay with it.

    Though our son has now grown and forgotten his experience, we never will.

    If you want to do a serious study, or speak with someone who has had a verifiable death-where all heart and brain function ceased, and they were resuscitated back to life-you are free to seek them out, and question them yourself. Google NDE's and learn about it, or perhaps read about Dr. Raymond Moody's research.

    That NOVA program was also quite interesting. I think the biggest shock we'll have after we die, is seeing just how naive were were about nearly everything we thought we knew.

    One of the most fascinating things my son said to me was, "Oh, Mom; you know everything when you die." I honestly can hardly wait to discover it for myself. The universe is such a huge place!

  • Mormoncowboy Provo, Ut
    March 1, 2012 1:16 p.m.

    M.G. Scott:

    "On the other hand, RanchHand, I'll bet you have loved people in your life and you know it to be a fact. Try to verify it."

    This again. Love is an emotion, and a fairly ambiguous term. If you wanted to call it a "fact" you would have to clearly define love. Once defined, developing systems to test that argument would not be difficult at all.

    This is yet another example of something we say, but didn't actually think through.

  • Mormoncowboy Provo, Ut
    March 1, 2012 1:11 p.m.

    "There are fairly consistant weight losses of about 21 grams; approximately the weight of four U.S. nickels. You can read about the older cases on Snopes if you don't believe me."

    Indeed the worth of souls is great, approximately it's weight in nickles following a short spike!

  • Kith HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA
    March 1, 2012 1:08 p.m.

    Sure we can. Not the Church's fault you want to pick and choose which evidence you'll accept. If you read The Book of Mormon with an open mind, with real intent to discover the truth, and humbly ask our Father in heaven if it is true, He will answer you.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    March 1, 2012 12:37 p.m.

    @m.g.scott;

    Completely unrelated analogy; emotions are applicable to the person feeling them, nobody else can ever be sure what they actually are for somebody else.

    Fact: Spain exists, though I've never been there to see it myself, I know people who have been there.

    Fact: Nobody has ever died and been 'resurrected' (that we can verify) with whom we can talk and ask questions. Lazarus, Jesus, etc. are all simply myths that we may or may not believe; yet they can't be verified through any other method than hearsay (so-and-so said..., so-and-so saw...).

  • New Yorker Pleasant Grove, UT
    March 1, 2012 11:58 a.m.

    @ Red Corvette

    You apparently didn't watch the most recent new Nova series on time and space. Everything is all their, all the time. Time, if viewed as a loaf of bread, can be sliced in any direction. Nothing is gone, nor ever will be. You've got to watch the whole series to grasp that our human paradigm about what is going on around us is not just flawed by our own limitations, but absolutely wrong. As Latter-day Saints, we call it the veil. When the veil is removed in the final resurrection we'll see things as they really are. One of the real possibilities discussed in the Nova series is that 3 dimensional space as we perceive it is actually only a holographic projection of reality on a two-dimensional surface. True science and true religion will someday be one and our limited views will fall as scales from our eyes.

  • Kjirstin Youngberg Mapleton, UT
    March 1, 2012 11:41 a.m.

    There was a time I agreed with you, Red. That time has passed.

    Dead IS dead as to the physical body, but we are not only physical beings. There is a portion of ourselves that is spiritual, and measurable. It has mass. Mass cannot be destroyed. Mass can only be changed.

    You'd be amazed at what can be weighed on highly sensitive time and frequency measurement devices. They were recently used by scientists on the beds of people in hospice care. I'm not talking about the 1907 cases; these were within the past four months, and are ongoing, their results as yet unpublished. They were conducted with the consent of the person dying and their family. (Which is the only reason I know about it.) By measuring the entire bed, the procedure was completely unobtrusive, and digital recordings verified both the weight loss and actual time of death. There are fairly consistant weight losses of about 21 grams; approximately the weight of four U.S. nickels. You can read about the older cases on Snopes if you don't believe me.

    As a Christian, I believe a third of the host of heaven followed Satan to serve him. These never gained bodies. They are desperate to enter any body, and I would not be surprised if they hang out around the dying in an attempt to jump into one, if only for a few seconds after the spirit of that person leaves it behind. That's my theory as to why there is sometimes a spike up at death, but it does settle to a loss of about 21 grams after a verified death.

    My three-year-old came back a changed child after his experience. He rarely spoke prior to his tonsillectomy, and became a chatterbox after it. He told us things he could not possibly have known, including telling us that his Grandma LaRue (then in her 70's) would die at the age of 87, which was to be "her appointed time to return home to Jesus Christ." Show me any other three-year-old who talks like that and with such prophetic gifts, and I'll be impressed.

    Thanks to Christ, we all have moral agency to do what we desire with our time as we sojourn here, and to believe or disbelieve anything we choose.

    Enjoy your 'Vette, Red.

    John 3: 4-5

    P.S. Another young boy named Colton Burpo had a similar experience and has written a book about it called, "Heaven Is For Real". He was old enough to remember a lot of his experience.

  • Kjirstin Youngberg Mapleton, UT
    March 1, 2012 8:55 a.m.

    Thanks to all of you for coming forward with these encouraging truths. I know from experience how difficult they are to share with the world at large.

    My son was just three when he died during surgery, and returned to tell us about meeting Jesus Christ, Zacharias, and his twin brother who had died of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. He spoke of his encounters, the beauty of heaven-including a "gold gate" which was never part of his religious instruction-and his sadness at being told it wasn't his time yet, and he'd have to return home to us. He spoke as if he had spent weeks on the other side, though his doctor confirmed his heart had stopped for less than two minutes before they were able to revive him. He will turn 21 in a couple of months, but sadly has no memory of his experience.

    So many of my close friends have recently left the Church and become agnostic or atheist. I know it's hard to be Mormon most of the time, and many things that are part of the culture of the Church drive me nuts. (We're all in the same sandbox; let's play nicely together!) However-I know from his experience and many others that there is so much more to eternity than our short little lives on this rock. How I wish more could recognize the Big Picture and learn to love everyone.

    We are in the final hours, or perhaps even minutes of our lives here, for we never know when our time will end. Every day I try to endure to the end, as my grandfather taught me. Some days, that's the most I can manage.

  • Mormon Wookiee Riverton, UT
    March 1, 2012 8:14 a.m.

    This is one of the most touching stories I have read in a long time. Thank you.

  • m.g. scott LAYTON, UT
    March 1, 2012 8:00 a.m.

    On the other hand, RanchHand, I'll bet you have loved people in your life and you know it to be a fact. Try to verify it.

  • JoeCoug OREM, UT
    March 1, 2012 7:25 a.m.

    Beautiful. Thank you. I had an experience while on my mission in Bolivia where the Spirit whispered to me that my Mother had passed away. The following morning I received a telegram from Zone Leaders instructing me to contact my mission president. I called him and he reported that, indeed, my Mom had left this world. I am grateful for tender mercies of the Lord.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    March 1, 2012 7:10 a.m.

    Life after death is a BELIEF. A Fact is something you can verify.