I don't care what RanchHand and Red think except as a mild conversation to
know another person. Such vigor in defending nothing doesn't leave much. On
the other hand, I know Ken and Debbie McCarty. Our daughter was best friends
with Sarah. They were on our Russia cruise. There is MORE to this story, more
that matters but Ken and Debbie and others like them don't discuss these
sacred matters with people whose goal in life is to ridicule others. Death is a
sacred experience. Two of our sons died and we encountered experience together
that still leave us stunned as to the power and magnitude of the reality of God,
and a post-mortal life. Thank you Dan Petersen for sharing this sacred time.
That is a very beautiful account. Thank you very much for sharing.
@ Joggle The idea that there is no God or afterlife is a "belief" also
because there is no proof that they don't exist. So then, where does that burden
of support fall?
JOggle, as stated earlier whn one says I have the proof and her it is, take it
or leave it. The difference is that when a member of the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-Day Saints states that I know we are the only true and living Church
of JESUS CHRIST on earth. This basically in all manner states that all the
others may have some truth to them but WE have all the truth. You then state
that if I prove you wrong then you go back to faith. No where has anyone
actually proven the LDS Church wrong on its claim. They disagree very much to
it but they can't prove otherwise. The other is that through scriptures and
others we have proven our point more often than not. Does this make us better
than the others no. In fact, if you really looked at the true doctrine of the
Church you will find that the majority of church members will fall in the second
kingdom, the Telestial World. Why, do you think this is? Life after death
isn't a fact nor is it not fiction. It is what it is when we all see it.
Joseph Smith stated that many of us if we saw the third kingdom would die just
to get there. To me this means more than anything and gives of hope for the
world to come. Hope is greater than no hope at all.
@Joggle ... Nice post. One of the better ones I've seen hereabouts. I've no issues with your 2nd paragraph, but a comment or two on the 1st.
Re your sentence "Most atheists research religious belief ... before
coming to their conclusions." If you used "Some" for "Most"
I would agree with you. I think 'most' atheists base their conclusions on
feelings - always a danger. Psychology plays a huge role in the structure of
beliefs, too.There is nothing about a believer's belief in an
afterlife that diminishes the importance of this life. On the contrary. Such a
belief makes the importance of this life all the more so. The atheist's focus on
this life is therefore no more laudable than the believer's, who can also give
reasons why this life is so important, whereas the atheist cannot. But, as you
allude to in your 2nd para, the truth or falsehood of a belief cannot be
established the focus one gives this or the next life. You say
"Believers fail to meet this burden [of support or proof] and thus fail to
provide good reasons to accept their claims." Oh, not at all. I'm thinking
you don't really mean that. :-) How about Plato's Allegory of the
Cave? Or, even better and still discussed after 900 years, Saint Aquinas' 'Five
Proofs'? Or the excellent essays by C.S. Lewis in "God In The Dock"? And
lets not forget the written reports of the original disciples. It seems to me
that the issue isn't 'is there proof of God' but, rather, 'what proof would you
accept?' and here I'd go back to the William James' paraphrase I made in my 1st
post. @Gramma ... Joggle presents intelligent, respectful opinions
contrary to ours. Good for him or her. But you are correct - many people
commenting here are outright cruel and disrespectful. You have to wonder about
the psychology of such folk. Anger always indicates something deeper.
@MoontanActually it isn't easy to dismiss the concept of an
afterlife at all. Many atheists would be happy if that was true, but there is
nothing that personally tells us it is. Most atheists research religious belief,
other knowledge, and their own experiences/feelings thoroughly before coming
their conclusions. Certainly atheists would like if there was life after death,
but still they must base their conclusions ultimately on their own experiences
and knowledge.....not somebody elses....since they could be wrong. Atheists love
life and are pained when a loved one is lost, but believe it is THIS life that
is important and we give THIS life meaning instead of being concerned about an
afterlife that may or may not be true. Perhaps the most basic reason for not
believing is the absence of good reasons for doing so. Once a person gets beyond
the bias in favor of belief they may realize something critical: the burden of
support lies with those claiming that religious belief is necessary or
believable. Believers fail to meet this burden and thus fail to provide good
reasons to accept their claims. Even if religious believers don't intend it, it
seems that in practice "faith and feelings" is simply pulled out
whenever attempted arguments based on reason and evidence fail. Do
we decide based on whose faith is the strongest, assuming we can measure that?
No, the strength of a belief is irrelevant to its truth or falsehood. Do we
decide based on whose faith has changed their lives the most or their personal
feeling that could be wrong? No, that's no indication of something being true.
Do we decide based on how popular their belief is? No, the popularity of a
belief has no bearing on whether it's true or not. If three different people
each make the same "faith" argument on behalf of their beliefs, we have
no way to evaluate their claims to determine which is more likely correct than
the others. What it does mean is that claims about the truth of religion or the
existence of some god cannot be defended to a skeptical nonbeliever on the basis
of faith. It means that faith is not an adequate or reasonable defense of any
belief or belief system which purports to have any empirical connection to the
reality which we all share. Faith is also an unreliable basis for singling out
one religion and claiming that it is true while all other religions, as well as
any competing secular philosophies, are false. @GrammaPerceived ridicule may be nothing more than disagreement, but some people take
it as ridicule even it was not meant as such. I have no problem with religious
beliefs bringing hope and solace to people. However, if faith is strong....then
no amount of disagreement will destroy that.
In reply to windsor and Moontan, what I don't understand about certain
commenters is their desire to disparage and denigrate the beliefs of others. I
can certainly understand (intellectually) their unbelief. I just cannot
understand their wanting to mock another person for believing something that
brings that person comfort and solace. It seems to me to be very mean-spirited,
even cruel. Since neither side can "prove" their point of view, it is
equivalent to seeking out someone whose loved one suffers from cancer and has a
50-50 chance of survival and insisting on telling them that there is no hope, so
they should give up right now. Why do they want to cause pain? And if someone
else says, "There is hope! My experience is that a cure is possible!"
why do some want to ridicule that person's experience?
@windsor...I don't speak for those whom your post addresses, but I know many
such people. The love of life doesn't prove there is an afterlife,
they would say. Nor does the pain of losing a loved one. Atheists aren't
necessarily happy that it all ends, that everything is ultimately pointless.
Many wish the concept of an afterlife was true. They aren't really good with it
all ending ... they just don't believe it doesn't end. So it seems
to me that the real question is 'why'? Probably many answers, but I find two
recurring frequently: many people filter concepts through the self, accepting
and rejecting propositions based upon their ability to understand and explain
them; and, 2) was it William James (??) who said that arguments for the
existence of God (and by inference, the afterlife) have no effect simply because
some people just don't believe in a God whose existence the arguments aim to
prove. No argument or proof would work for such people.
The two types of comments here is something that is ever-present in my
thinking:The two types of people there seem to be.Those
who hope, who believe, who say there is evidence life after death and
those who don't hope, don't believe, say there is no life after death--who say
dead is dead, and that religion is a fictitious, invented-by-man institution.As one who has an atheist close in my life, (who will not discuss this,
other than to say the same things as RanchHand, Red Corvette and others)this
question fascinates and puzzles me endlessly.As a believer and one
who hopes, its easy for me to see why I hope: I have people I love. I love life.
I want those things to not end with death, and for them to continue. Based
completely in emotion, I know.But for those who are on the opposite
side, my honest, sincere question is WHY and HOW???Why is it SO EASY
for you to just dismiss it all?Do you not love life?Do you not have
people you love that it would pain you to lose if there is nothing after
death?HOW can you not care? (I am not being contentious here, I am really,
really wondering!)How can you just accept, and be happy with, the notion
that your short time will be up soon and that everything wonderful and important
in life means absolutely nothing?? Even if we believers are
delusional, I can totally see how and why we would be.What I can't
see is how non-believers can find it so easy and painless to face the prospect
of it all ending, and being good with that.HOW and WHY can and do
you do that?? I would love to know your thoughts, RanchHand, Red Corvette and
For those dissing faith in the afterlife or faith itself, I imagine that giving
up on cold hard facts to guide you through life would be a scary deal. There is
security in believing only after seeing. But if you were to give faith a try,
ease your tight fisted hold on what you can only see with your eyes or touch
with your hands, you'll find greater strength and peace of mind than you ever
thought possible. I challenge you to allow yourself to explore the
possibility that there is a Greater Being in charge here and has it all under
control despite the fact- a definite fact that is doesn't look that way
sometimes. Allow yourself to enjoy the possibility that there truly is life
after death and that it doesn't all end here. THere is a God in Heaven who loves
you more than you could ever imagine. Don't be afraid to explore it mentally and
give your mind permission to rest there in that thought for awhile. Then see if
you don't have a greater sense of well being and calm and happiness, even for a
minute. I dare you to go that far. Who knows where this novel idea might take
you? Perhaps to a happier, healthier state of mind than you're currently in.
So grateful for our loving Father in Heaven, and our Savior Jesus Christ for the
hope and promise of eternal life. Thank you for such beautiful affirmation.
People can contend with and even mock those that have had spiritual experiences.
Just because someone isn't close enough to the spirit to recognize it, doesn't
mean the spirit isn't there. In spite of what skeptics might say, I cannot deny
the reality of my own experience.
I understand what LVIS said andIagree with him. However, I also agree that
there is much in this life we do not understand that must be taken on faith, and
faith alone. There are many on this board that has had a spiritual awakening
based on Moroni's promise. Then there are those who say they haven't therefore
the promise is false. Either it is true or it isn't, but to dismiss it all
together is just as wrong. President Packer in his last General Conference talk
explains very well how the Holy Ghost talks to us to KNOW its truth.Some like Brahmabull corrects us by saying it is belief, that you really can't
KNOW yet we all do say we KNOW the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Days Saints
is the only true and living Church of Jesus Christ on earth today. There are
others like Sharrona who argues against the LDS Church in all its glory as
unchristian. Then there are those who have no faith at all. In the end, what
matters is what is in each of our own hearts that allows us to be who we are.
It is the at our deaths that all is revealed, whether truthful or not. If it
comes down to it the only one who knows for sure is our Heavenly Father and it
is up to us to find out for ourselves. As stated Beauty is in the eye of the
beholder, so is truth.
Independent WomanWest Jordan, UTLVIS, Where did you get the idea
that MORMON TIMES is a secular paper? The name itself should tell you something.
Besides the Deseret News is owned by the Church which theoretically can print
anything it deams appropriate. Granted other things are in that section, but
that doesn't make either the paper or the Mormon Times section secular in all
things.Point taken. However, I still believe the quotes I reference
are just as valid--whatever the publication. To discuss 'happenings in the
church' is one thing. To discuss spiritual items of a personal nature are best
reserved for blogs, conversations with close friends, or more intimate settings,
etc. But, to each her own, I suppose.
Like Kirjsten, since my son died 2 years ago from brain cancer, there have been
days when "enduring to the end" was all I could do, at least in part
because I know George is there, on the other side. Have I "seen" him?
Not exactly, but I know when he's nearby, checking up on me. I know he's still
tall (6'5", 300lbs), still funny, and wears white. For me it has been like
feeling him beside or in front of me, observed with some kind of other-worldly
peripheral vision, tangible in a truly personal way. When I feel his loss the
most I often feel his arm around me, assuring me he can wait as long as I have
LVIS, Where did you get the idea that MORMON TIMES is a secular paper? The name
itself should tell you something. Besides the Deseret News is owned by the
Church which theoretically can print anything it deams appropriate. Granted
other things are in that section, but that doesn't make either the paper or the
Mormon Times section secular in all things.
PapaCorn--"You see, yours and RanchHand's thoughts are also beliefs.
You have no proof that there actually ISN'T eternal life. You're relying on your
own hubris as proof there really isn't anything after death."Agree. What many fail to understand is that it takes just as much faith NOT to
believe as it does to believe.
RE Iron@ClayJoseph, of course, was at least one hundred and seventy years ahead
of science who have only recently discovered the quantum, string theory of
discrete particles of energy and matter?In 2 Cor 12:2,4, The point
Paul is making is that any revelation that comes from outside the Bible
(extra-biblical revelation) is not a reliable source, and as Paul says,
"There is nothing to be gained by it." This does not mean that his
out-of-body experience wasn't real, only that he is not relying on it to give
him truth or really to benefit himself or other people in any way.An
involuntary out-of-body experience or a near-death experience, like the Apostle
Paul's, should be treated in the same way as a dream in the life of a
ChristianÂan unexplained phenomenon that may make a good story, but does
not give us truth. The only place we find absolute truth is in the Word of God.
All other sources are merely subjective.
Dennis, I find it funny how people such as yourself, in fact one
from Harwich, MA, find the need to read a newspaper from Utah and to make
agnostic or atheistic comments. Must have a lot of time on your hands that you
feel is best spent trying to denigrate the faith of others. You are right,
humans are VERY odd. Organized religion is simply a man-made
institution? Prove it. Impart your grand knowledge to us that there isn't life
after death. With your limitless erudition I challenge you to prove to us all
what Mr Petersen and Ms Youngberg said were based on dreams, thoughts and hopes.
You see, yours and RanchHand's thoughts are also beliefs. You have
no proof that there actually ISN'T eternal life. You're relying on your own
hubris as proof there really isn't anything after death.
Ooseph Smith stated that all spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and
can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are
purified we shall see that it is all matter.Joseph, of course, was
at least one hundred and seventy years ahead of science who have only recently
discovered the quantum, string theory of dicrete particles of energy and matter.
LVIS has a point. Experiences such as this article and many of those shared in
comments should generally be kept within immediate family.Ranch, You
wouldn't receive an answer that it is not true, you may receive no answer
however. This generally happens because people don't read the BoM and ask with
the right mindset, which I described in my previous post. I forgot to mention
you must ask in faith, even if all you can do is desire faith, that if he is
there and it is true you will receive an answer. This answer may be very subtle,
so if you were to do this pay close attention to how you feel.
Daniel Peterson's article does not mention the opposite condition that exists
for those who die with a devout belief in the erroneous philosophy that there is
no dreator and therefore no afterlife and did not excercise faith and repentance
while they had the oportunity while in this mortal probationary sphere. This opposite condition is a state of misery, the consequence of
disobedience to God's law. And to be tormented by the one who FLATTERED them to
believe that there was no creator and no afterlife. The adversary desires that
all those who received a body to be tested in this life might eventually be
miserable like unto himself.There is a judgement at the time the
spirit leaves the body.
I've heard or read a number of stories of this nature. Some of them ring true
and some don't. This one definitely does. Thanks for sharing it. Perfectly appropriate -- this is the Faith section after all.
We know the McCartys and Sarah. Great family and Sarah was a terrific young
lady.Her death was surrounded by many other such incidents. One has
to wonder how many coincidences it takes to equal a trend... How many trends
equal a verified experience... How many experiences equal a reasonable theory.
How many reasonable theories that have parallelism equal a truth. And how far
away from truth is a fact? For some, no amount of experiences are worthy of
"fact" labels. Except for areas of their interest. Yet I wonder how many
seek to discard a truth and replace it with nothing, bring little value to
life.Thanks, Dan, for sharing that story with others. It will
resonate with those open to truth.
Not really sure what the point of the article is. Those that believe believe,
those that don't don't. Even if we concede the events discussed are absolutely
without question, it may be helpful to be reminded of a couple of comments made
by others:"It is my conviction that experiences of a special,
sacred nature are individual and should be kept to oneself" --Boyd K.
Packer"If you have had a vision or manifestation, it is your
duty to keep it to yourself; it is not for the church (and I would add most
assuredly not for the public) and I advise you not to repeat it." --Joseph
Fielding SmithIn the LDS church, there is a fairly vocal hue and cry
whenever one of its teachings or beliefs is subject to ridicule and
mockery--intended or not. And yet, articles like this, by a member of the LDS
church, in a secular publication, only serves to invite critics to comment. I
wouldn't expect this to be mentioned in a church testimony meeting, much less in
I think by definition something that requires faith cannot be considered a fact.
I feel so sorry for those posters that have lost their faith, find the whole
idea of life after life funny and are so tragically lost. You don't have to be
this unhappy, you know. You can find faith and true happiness. You don't have
to keep spending your life in this kind of emptiness. God is our
father, Christ is his son, the Holy Ghost is with us and Eternal Life is real,
true and factual. I feel so sorry for those who don't know this. It's so sad
when someone is so desperately trying to convince him/herself that they have to
spend all their time attacking those who have true knowledge and joy in faith.
I guess misery loves company.Once again...you don't have to be this
unhappy. You can find true joy in the truth.
A warm feeling in the chest (emotion) does not verify fact. Never has, never
Fact or belief? There is quite a difference.
I hope that there is life after this life. I believe there is despite no longer
believing in the LDS church after growing up in it, preaching its teachings on
my mission and marrying in the temple.I have read many Near Death
Experiences (NDE) and one common thread runs through them all and that there is
something on the other side.I hope so.
Ranch: "Near-death is NOT death; what they experience could be nothing more
than the neurons in their brains firing at random as their bodies shut
down."And your whole life might be nothing more than a grasshopper's
daydream as he clings to a stalk of wheat somewhere. Ever considered that
possibility?We can play "what-if" endlessly. But the fact is,
people do have near-death experiences that confirm a belief in the after life.
A friend had such an experience while flying to the hospital in an air-med
chopper. He said, "I have to take many things on faith, but I absolutely
know that death is not the end."Firing neurons? You'll never convince
him of that.
Thank you Daniel. I am as cynical as they come, but your article softened my
heart. Thanks again.
I keep thinking about a talk, also by Daniel Peterson, which I heard on a CD. He
said that you cannot prove the Book of Mormon is true, the Church is true, etc.
because that is not the way it works. God has made it so that we have to
exercise faith. True, you can dispute what someone else accepts on faith, but
much of science, etc. can also be disputed because research is ongoing and
sometimes "proves" something different than they thought before. So the only way we can deal with these truths is by exercising faith,
which will give us the assurance we seek. If we pray, and have faith that our
prayers will be answered God will give us the answers, and that is all we need.
If you don't believe, don't try to convince me to follow your way of thinking.
Let's just agree to disagree.
Re: I came to tell you that heaven is beautiful. Sarah looked happy and
beautiful, Don said, and healthier than he had ever seen her.Paul warns
against this,He was caught up to the third heaven, or Paradise(2 Cor 12:2).
Verse 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man
is NOT permitted to speak.The Jews in Paul's day referred to the,
first heaven as the place where the birds fly, the second heaven as the place
where the sun, the moon and the stars resided, and the third heaven as the place
of God's abode.
Kith says:"Sure we can. Not the Church's fault you want to pick
and choose which evidence you'll accept. If you read The Book of Mormon with an
open mind, with real intent to discover the truth, and humbly ask our Father in
heaven if it is true, He will answer you."===What if
I do all of that and the answer I get is not the one you expect? What if the
answer I get is "It is NOT true"? Then what?@Firefly;Near-death is NOT death; what they experience could be nothing more than
the neurons in their brains firing at random as their bodies shut down.
I had a similar experience a few years ago when my Mom died. She was ill and we
knew her time was short, but we had figured she had a week or so left. Early in
the Morning I could have sworn I heard my Mom call my name, just like she did
when I was a kid and she was waking me up for school. I half arose and my Mom
was sitting at the foot of my bed and told me it was time for her to go, but I
should not be sad because she was ready and was no longer in pain. She told me
she loved me, was proud of me and she would always not be far away from me. As
she said that to me my phone rang and it was my Dad telling me Mom had taken a
turn for the worse during the night and I needed to get over to their house
because she looked to be in the final stages of dying. I quickly drove over in
time to see her last breath. Exactly one week after she died she was again in my
room and told me that she was good, and not to be sad about her dying because
she could finally do things she had not been able to do in a long time because
of her being sick. She again told me she loved me and that we would see each
other again some day.
Re: RanchHandThere are a lot of places that no one has ever been to
or seen that can be verified or factual. Most of quantum physics for example.
As one poster noted, you may have never had a spiritual experience, but many
have. You cannot say that what they experienced is not verified or factual any
more than I can say whether or not you have been to Spain. If you say you
haven't I'll believe you. And by the way, emotions are factual. Just hard to
prove to skeptics.
Life after death has no relevance to Mormonism or any other religion. Organized
religion is simply a man-made institution. I'm always amused at how dreams,
thoughts, hopes and belief always translate into fact, visions, angels and
revelation. Humans are very odd.
A beautiful experience/story ! Thank you for sharing!Have been many
years since I stopped believing in organized religion. One of my biggest
contention with all religions is that in my view, they diminish God and Science
in order to support their limited understanding of the universe.These stories not only touch the realm of spirituality but physics as well.My only certainty in knowledge is to know that I know and understand
very little of how this whole thing works. In my life I have learned
that my five senses are not enough to perceive what happens around me. What I have also learned is that my body and mind reacts to certain spiritual
stimuli, because I cannot define them, does it mean they don't exist? I don't
think so.Our existence is wonderfully complex.and
again...a wonderful story.
@RanchHand"Fact: Spain exists, though I've never been there to
see it myself, I know people who have been there."Many people
could say the same thing about the next life. "Life after death exists,
though I've never been there to see it myself, I know people who have been
there." Firefly123 is just one example. We've never been there, but
his/her son has, and has as much validity as those that you know that have been
to Spain. The fact that you don't want to believe in it is your choice, and has
nothing to do with fact.
While I do think this is a great story and I believe that those involved
encountered what they say - there really is no way to verify if it happened. It
sounds to me like one of those three nephite stories - stories that have been
embellished, made up, or altered after the fact. 3 nephite stories have been
going around for years, and none of them can be given much credence but are told
in church as if they are fact. Still a nice story though and I hope it is the
Looks like the DN is not telling its local readers about the recent Daniel Pearl
baptizm in a local temple. Here is an interesting quote form the Article DN
readers will find interesting...An the Church's PA office has some serious PR
work to do ..Again The quote: Reached by phone, Pearl's
mother, Ruth, said she and her husband were dismayed when informed of the
ceremony by a reporter from the Boston Globe, which first reported the news. "We realize that the Mormon ministers who baptized our son
posthumously meant to offer him salvation in the most honorable way they know
how," she said in statement. "To them we say: We appreciate your good
intentions but rest assured that Danny's soul was redeemed through the life that
he lived and the values that he upheld. He lived as a proud Jew, died as a
proud Jew and is currently facing his creator as a Jew -- blessed, accepted and
redeemed."Looks like somebody is going to called before a church
court to account for this OOPS. This has been reported in the Boston
Globe, the New York Times and the LA Times - to name a few newspapers.
Oh, Ranch Hand, I am sure you would like to believe nobody has ever died and
come back "with whom we can talk and ask questions" when the simple fact
is, it happens. The event in clinical terms is called an NDE or "Near Death
Experience" and with the extreme measures ER's go through to bring people
back to life these days, it happens more and more. People who don't
want their narrow paradigm challenged always tell me it was the effect of drugs
on my sons brain. Well, they weren't there. The never talked to him. We did, and
we know things they'll never be able to accept, and I'm okay with it.Though our son has now grown and forgotten his experience, we never will. If you want to do a serious study, or speak with someone who has had a
verifiable death-where all heart and brain function ceased, and they were
resuscitated back to life-you are free to seek them out, and question them
yourself. Google NDE's and learn about it, or perhaps read about Dr. Raymond
Moody's research. That NOVA program was also quite interesting. I
think the biggest shock we'll have after we die, is seeing just how naive were
were about nearly everything we thought we knew.One of the most
fascinating things my son said to me was, "Oh, Mom; you know everything when
you die." I honestly can hardly wait to discover it for myself. The universe
is such a huge place!
M.G. Scott:"On the other hand, RanchHand, I'll bet you have
loved people in your life and you know it to be a fact. Try to verify
it."This again. Love is an emotion, and a fairly ambiguous term.
If you wanted to call it a "fact" you would have to clearly define love.
Once defined, developing systems to test that argument would not be difficult at
all. This is yet another example of something we say, but didn't
actually think through.
"There are fairly consistant weight losses of about 21 grams; approximately
the weight of four U.S. nickels. You can read about the older cases on Snopes if
you don't believe me."Indeed the worth of souls is great,
approximately it's weight in nickles following a short spike!
Sure we can. Not the Church's fault you want to pick and choose which evidence
you'll accept. If you read The Book of Mormon with an open mind, with real
intent to discover the truth, and humbly ask our Father in heaven if it is true,
He will answer you.
@m.g.scott;Completely unrelated analogy; emotions are applicable to
the person feeling them, nobody else can ever be sure what they actually are for
somebody else.Fact: Spain exists, though I've never been there to
see it myself, I know people who have been there.Fact: Nobody has
ever died and been 'resurrected' (that we can verify) with whom we can talk and
ask questions. Lazarus, Jesus, etc. are all simply myths that we may or may not
believe; yet they can't be verified through any other method than hearsay
(so-and-so said..., so-and-so saw...).
@ Red CorvetteYou apparently didn't watch the most recent new Nova
series on time and space. Everything is all their, all the time. Time, if viewed
as a loaf of bread, can be sliced in any direction. Nothing is gone, nor ever
will be. You've got to watch the whole series to grasp that our human paradigm
about what is going on around us is not just flawed by our own limitations, but
absolutely wrong. As Latter-day Saints, we call it the veil. When the veil is
removed in the final resurrection we'll see things as they really are. One of
the real possibilities discussed in the Nova series is that 3 dimensional space
as we perceive it is actually only a holographic projection of reality on a
two-dimensional surface. True science and true religion will someday be one and
our limited views will fall as scales from our eyes.
There was a time I agreed with you, Red. That time has passed. Dead
IS dead as to the physical body, but we are not only physical beings. There is a
portion of ourselves that is spiritual, and measurable. It has mass. Mass cannot
be destroyed. Mass can only be changed. You'd be amazed at what can
be weighed on highly sensitive time and frequency measurement devices. They were
recently used by scientists on the beds of people in hospice care. I'm not
talking about the 1907 cases; these were within the past four months, and are
ongoing, their results as yet unpublished. They were conducted with the consent
of the person dying and their family. (Which is the only reason I know about
it.) By measuring the entire bed, the procedure was completely unobtrusive, and
digital recordings verified both the weight loss and actual time of death. There
are fairly consistant weight losses of about 21 grams; approximately the weight
of four U.S. nickels. You can read about the older cases on Snopes if you don't
believe me. As a Christian, I believe a third of the host of heaven
followed Satan to serve him. These never gained bodies. They are desperate to
enter any body, and I would not be surprised if they hang out around the dying
in an attempt to jump into one, if only for a few seconds after the spirit of
that person leaves it behind. That's my theory as to why there is sometimes a
spike up at death, but it does settle to a loss of about 21 grams after a
verified death.My three-year-old came back a changed child after his
experience. He rarely spoke prior to his tonsillectomy, and became a chatterbox
after it. He told us things he could not possibly have known, including telling
us that his Grandma LaRue (then in her 70's) would die at the age of 87, which
was to be "her appointed time to return home to Jesus Christ." Show me
any other three-year-old who talks like that and with such prophetic gifts, and
I'll be impressed.Thanks to Christ, we all have moral agency to do
what we desire with our time as we sojourn here, and to believe or disbelieve
anything we choose. Enjoy your 'Vette, Red. John 3:
4-5P.S. Another young boy named Colton Burpo had a similar
experience and has written a book about it called, "Heaven Is For Real".
He was old enough to remember a lot of his experience.
Thanks to all of you for coming forward with these encouraging truths. I know
from experience how difficult they are to share with the world at large. My son was just three when he died during surgery, and returned to tell
us about meeting Jesus Christ, Zacharias, and his twin brother who had died of
Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. He spoke of his encounters, the beauty of
heaven-including a "gold gate" which was never part of his religious
instruction-and his sadness at being told it wasn't his time yet, and he'd have
to return home to us. He spoke as if he had spent weeks on the other side,
though his doctor confirmed his heart had stopped for less than two minutes
before they were able to revive him. He will turn 21 in a couple of months, but
sadly has no memory of his experience. So many of my close friends
have recently left the Church and become agnostic or atheist. I know it's hard
to be Mormon most of the time, and many things that are part of the culture of
the Church drive me nuts. (We're all in the same sandbox; let's play nicely
together!) However-I know from his experience and many others that there is so
much more to eternity than our short little lives on this rock. How I wish more
could recognize the Big Picture and learn to love everyone. We are
in the final hours, or perhaps even minutes of our lives here, for we never know
when our time will end. Every day I try to endure to the end, as my grandfather
taught me. Some days, that's the most I can manage.
This is one of the most touching stories I have read in a long time. Thank you.
On the other hand, RanchHand, I'll bet you have loved people in your life and
you know it to be a fact. Try to verify it.
Beautiful. Thank you. I had an experience while on my mission in Bolivia where
the Spirit whispered to me that my Mother had passed away. The following
morning I received a telegram from Zone Leaders instructing me to contact my
mission president. I called him and he reported that, indeed, my Mom had left
this world. I am grateful for tender mercies of the Lord.
Life after death is a BELIEF. A Fact is something you can verify.