Comments about ‘Elitism in education’

Follow the money to understand where and why public ed in Utah is being raided to favor the private sector. In particular, track political "donations" by the private industry to Stephenson and others (who, coincidentally, led the failed voucher movement).

Well said, Mr Nielson. Privatizing education is nothing more than an attempt to gleen the system of well off students and money. Period. It has nothing to do with having a well educated society.

The answer to your question is clearly "no".

So work to elect different people. Utahns don't like what they are getting, so they keep re-electing them. How much sense does that make?

The goal is to educate our children, not to favor public schools over private schools or quasi-private schools.

OUR tax money does not belong to public schools, to the school boards, to the UEA or to anyone affiliated with any form of education. OUR tax money is earmarked for the EDUCATION of our children.

Even those who have received a public school education can see that many of our children are not "educated" after being graduated by the public schools. Ask any employer who hires a high-school graduate to do elementary office work or to compose simple email messages. That business owner will tell you that many high school graduates cannot write a simple declarative sentence nor can those graduates maintain basic accounting books.

When challenged about their failure to educate, public schools simply ask, "What did you expect from the pittance that you gave us?"

Non-public schools ARE doing the job. They deserve every possible break. It's time for the public schools to stop using OUR children as pawns to get more of OUR tax dollars to graduate even more quasi-educated students.

This letter completely misuses the term "elitism," and in so doing, adds confusion to the issue. In reality, true elitism would be a great thing for Utah education.

The problem with the current system is that it attempts to be egalitarian by attempting to treat all students the same in a vain attempt to have all students acheive the same results. This approach ignores the fact that some students have no ability to succeed and many make no effort to do so.

This current system wastes precious and scarce resources on students who, quite frankly, should not be in school. Rather than spending money to warehouse these uneducatable children, let us spend money on those who have demonstrated that they have the ability and determination to be successful.

"This current system wastes precious and scarce resources on students who, quite frankly, should not be in school."

And who determines this? There was a country in the 1930s-40s that decided that they would decide who deserved to live and die. They murdered thousands of their own people who they deemed "unworthy to live."

I don't want the government to decide who should be in school. All should have the equal opportunity. Let the students and parents decide.

"Rather than spending money to warehouse these uneducatable children, let us spend money on those who have demonstrated that they have the ability and determination to be successful."

Once again, you're putting us on a slippery slope here. This logic could be used to start up private security, firefighter, snow plow subsidies.

Furthermore, where does it end? Since private school tuition is much higher than public school, the money you'd normally give for public school would fall far short for your child to attend a private school. Meaning, you'd need to either fork out money to make up the difference or demand more money from society to subsidize your decision.

I've seen society, and I know that for a fact, parents WILL NOT pay the difference. They'll simply demand more out of us tax paying regular Americans.

In the end, we'll be subsidizing YOUR decisions and private schools will keep hiking up their costs since they know that we'll keep paying YOUR bills.

I'm sorry, but that's not how it works.

Pay your dues to society, respect Utah's decision (which was AGAINST vouchers), and pay for your OWN choices.

I don't pay for your PRIVATE boat and vacations. So why are you expecting me to pay for your child's PRIVATE education?

Our public educators are constantly telling us that parents need to be more involved in their childrens education. Yet, when the legislators try to empower parents financially these same educators cry foul.

If you favor helping only the wealthy, then vote only Republican. If you belong in the working class population, the poor and elderly, the uninsured, and you want to help the wealthy obtain more wealth on your back, vote Republican.
If you as a voter, don't like even one thing that the current leaders are doing, then vote them out of office.
But please, don't vote for somebody who would only want to enrich themselves, thier friends, and the wealthy in general.
We have have enough of that thought train the last three decades. It must stop.

Re: "But please, don't vote for somebody who would only want to enrich themselves, thier [sic] friends, and the wealthy in general."

You mean the Obama crowd? They're the ones who get rich from government -- taxpayer-supported -- "service."

And who gains from their deranged, unsustainable fiscal policies? Not the poor, who they need to stay poor, desperate, and ignorant enough to keep voting them into office.

Obama beneficiaries include a plethora of government workers, insurance companies, poorly managed "green" energy enterprises, and other "entrepreneurs" like Al Gore, who became multi-millionaires on profits from insane, untenable government policy.

But the poor? They're still with us.

Charter schools are public schools. I don't understand why people can't get this straight. Charter schools are open to everyone at no cost. They don't require vouchers. Charter schools do not have the wasteful bureaucracy you see in the school districts. Schools are responsible to the charter board and to the State Board of Education. No layers of middle management.
Unfortunately, charter students do not get their full funding. Charter school students have a portion of their per-pupil funding creamed off the top and returned to the school district that does nothing to educate them. This does not seem fair to the student or their public education.
Again, charter schools are public schools and are open to all and students are chosen by lottery. The long waiting lists for the lotteries show the effectiveness of the charter school system. Charter schools are a great option for improving public education.

Alive - one word. Different meaning than 'a live'.

/elitism

My little area of town is dense with lawyers/doctors/professionals. When the charter school popped up around the corner I saw parents falling all over themselves to get their kids in. Now its a darn lottery! (sorry to DN for swearing the first time around, I was educated on the west side, and I slip up sometimes) They are all convinced that their kids are safe from life's failures thanks to their special higher education. My wife is an ex-teacher at one of these special charter schools, so we were up close and personal with the dynamics of at least that particular school. We went with the traditional school for our kids. Now that our oldest is in an intermediate school where the chartered kids are mixed in with the ordinary kids, we see no difference. My child excells in his classes, has learned social/leadership skills and we are just crossing our fingers and saying our prayers that he will be 'just fine.' Imagine how smart he'd be if we were lucky enough to get him enrolled in the special charter school.
As I see it, most parents of chartered kids are already actively involved themselves in their child's education, which to me is the key, yet they give all the credit to the 'unique' experience from the special charter school.
It starts at home. Spend time with your kids, be involved in their education and they may just turn out to be 'adequate' enough to survive in this world.

From: Think then Respond;
Again, charter schools are public schools and are open to all and students are chosen by lottery. The long waiting lists for the lotteries show the effectiveness of the charter school system. Charter schools are a great option for improving public education.

To: Think then Respond;
??? open to all and chosen by lottery ???
That doesn't make sense to me.
Have you ever read Hunger Games? Me niether, but my wife has. She's in a book club with all the charter moms in our barrio.

R,K. Nielson

The answer to your question is NO.

It is not possible to believe any of the words spoken by politicians and even those who post here.

My theory is that the only way to understand the actions of politicians, businessmen, religious people, or just about any other kind of person in the world, is to look at the results and make your own decisions.

50 years ago we moved to Utah. The highly touted Utah schools were a factor in doing so.

Since that time the public schools have diminished in stature. Coincident with this change has been the rise of commercial business effect on government. While coincidence is not proof of cause, it is highly suspicious.

When a government service is taken over by private business, the result is always an increase in cost and a decrease in equal justice for all.

Business and businessmenÂs motives for tinkering with public education might include:

Lowering the cost to the state and to some of the parents.

Effecting the competition for jobs.

Lower wages.

Less intelligent customers.

Mr Richard, you need to stop! What you are saying is unconstitutional, not rational, and completely un-American.

"OUR tax money does not belong to public schools"

and

"Non-public schools ARE doing the job."

If you had ever attended college and received higher education, you would have learned philosophy and logic. Your flawed logic can be applied to virtually any system in our country. You could potentially claim that tax money doesn't belong to police, fire departments, the IRS, and the military. You could potentially claim that your "private" groups are doing the job and therefore would receive the money that you'd normally give to public institutions.

Should Mike receive credits? Should he be able to exempt himself from paying, just like everyone else? Should vouchers be given to those who want private policemen, firefighters, and garbage pickup? And what happens if they fail? Will Mike then be entitled to a bailout from society?

I'm sorry, Mike, if you hate this system so bad, go to Afghanistan or Somalia.

Here's a question to all those who ignore the will of the people of Utah and stuff their voucher nonsense down our throats. YOU FOLKS LOST. We voted on your option. We didn't like it. It was overwhelmingly defeated. If Romney were to win the GOP seat yet Newt Romney was placed to run against Obama by a few vocal GOP leaders thus ignoring the voice of the people? how would folks like Mike Richard feel?

So why then, are the persistent in ignoring the voice of Utah in regards to vouchers? In the United States of America, WE WILL NOT BE RULED BY THE MINORITY.

In America, you pay for basic institutions. This includes police, firefighters, snow plows, garbage pickup, and schools. Go ahead and CHOOSE to find those that can do this in the private sector, but PAY FOR THOSE IN ADDITION to your American societal duties.

I grow tired of how those supporting vouchers refuse to listen to Utah's voice. We've already voted this down before. Why should you folks continue to have a forum and reject what WE have chosen?

It's that self-accountability that is lacking.

Mike and his ilk want us to subsidize their choices. I'm sorry, it just doesn't work that way. Don't want to give back to society? Then by all means, leave.

@The Real Maverick "We've already voted this down before. Why should you folks continue to have a forum and reject what WE have chosen?"

Because this is America, where the majority doesn't get to infringe on the free speech of everyone else. Why is it always the first inclination of the Left to try to silence their opposition?

Excellence is not elitism.

Maverik,

Did you even read my post? If you did, take the time to re-read it until you comprehend what I wrote.

Did I call for an end of taxation for education? I DID NOT!

Tell me exactly what I said that was unconstitutional. There is NOTHING in my post that is unconstitutional.

I called for accountability for OUR tax dollars. Those dollars do not belong to teachers, to the school district, or to any other part of the teaching system. Those dollars are levied on us so that our children will GET AN EDUCATION. Do you understand the difference between taxing us to pay teachers and taxing us to educate our children? Apparently not.

Do you have a job? Are you required to perform? Are you given evaluations to see if you are performing? Is someone watching to see that you are a value to your company? Would you be paid if you make your own rules, worked your own hours, and rated your performance based on what YOU wanted and not for what you were hired to do?

Please, get a grip. If you think that our children are pawns, then keep up your diatribe. Keep pretending that taxes are not connected in any way to results. Keep pretending that the function of the schools is to babysit our kids. While you do that, I will continue to remind you that OUR TAX DOLLARS are earmarked for TEACHING our kids the skills that they need. If you find that offensive, then perhaps YOU need to rethink YOUR citizenship in this Republic.

"Because this is America, where the majority doesn't get to infringe on the free speech of everyone else. Why is it always the first inclination of the Left to try to silence their opposition?"

Nor does it mean that the minority get to jam their agenda down our throats. Vouchers have been defeated. Yet, we continue to see not only discussion, but the ramming of legislation that essentially does the exact same thing.

Why does the right only respect decisions in their favor? But when things don't go their way, they continue to try to jam their agenda down our throats?

Sorry folks, you lost, we won. Deal with it. We don't want to subsidize you for your PERSONAL choices. You want private education? Great! But pay for it by YOURSELF.

Don't ask society for handouts.

The less educated the population is, the more likely they are to vote republican. That's a fact. It's self preservation for the legislature.