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Comments about ‘LDS Church toughens stand against 'improper' proxy name submissions’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 21 2012 7:10 p.m. MST

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Phranc
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

@cats
So ignoring church leaders is a non issue?

toshi1066
OGDEN, UT

Now we'll see if it's all just lip service...

I promise, I will haunt the person who baptises me against my will.

Truthseeker
SLO, CA

Obviously the "honor system" used by the church broke down. Maybe this whole system needs to be re-evaluated.

Capella
Bakersfield, CA

Blue Coug, on your planet there may have been Jewish proxy baptisms, but no where in the Bible.

The Corinthians who were practicing this ritual were Christians, they were not part of the Apostle Paul's churches. They believed in the resurrection, which is the topic of 1Cor. 15, not the baptisms performed by "they"/ as opposed to "we".

No other Christian churches have practiced this until 1830.

Let's at least keep this 'tempest in a teapot' factual, if not Biblical.

Bill in Nebraska
Maryville, MO

In the end it will not matter. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints knows that everyone on earth will be baptized sooner or later. Whether it happens now or during the millineium really won't matter. Now is more for the members to trace as far as they can their own family. This has always been the mandate. Those who have gone against this are really going against the direction of the Lord. However, in the end all will be baptized. At the time the Lord returns every knee shall bow and every tongue confess Jesus is the Christ. This will happen.

Just as everyone's temple work will be done for every family that has been on earth. All families on earth will be traced back to Adam and Eve. Everyone will be baptized and sealed all the way back to Adam. This will be done. We as members should just stick to our own families. By the war Pagan, you can't stop your own family from doing it if they are members of the Church. It will be done.

BCA
Murrieta, CA

"The church keeps its word."

The church exists in a terrestrial world. The church tries, like the rest of us, to keep its word the best it can. The church is made up of humans. It is not some entity separate from humans. Not infallible. Not close, just like us.

sharrona
layton, UT

Bill in Nebraska Those who have gone against this are really going against the direction of the Lord. However, in the end all will be baptized.

No need ,the God of the Bible is Sovereign.⦠âI will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.â It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on Godâs mercy.( Romans 9:15,16).

Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all ISRAEL will be saved⦠As it is written: âThe deliverer will come from Zion;he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.(Romans 11:25-26)

The total number of ELECT Jews of every generation (the fullness of Israel v.12) which is analogous to the fullness of the gentiles (full number) verse 25.
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KC Mormon
Edgerton, KS

Capella

You said "Let's at least keep this 'tempest in a teapot' factual, if not Biblical"
I agree. While I do not know of any Jewish sect that performed Baptism for the Dead it is also not "factual that no other Christians than the Corinthians practiced it. It was infact Practiced as late as the fifth Century. We know this by the writings of Epiphanius. While he did not believe in it he did say it was being practiced from Asia to Gaul (present day spain and France)
"From Asia and Gaul has reached us the account [tradition] of a certain practice, namely that when any die without baptism among them, they baptize others in their place and in their name, so that, rising in the resurrection, they will not have to pay the penalty of having failed to receive baptism, but rather will become subject to the authority of the Creator of the World. For this reason this tradition which has reached us is said to be the very thing to which the Apostle himself refers when he says, "If. the dead rise not at all, what shall they do who are baptized for the dead"
Interesting that in the fifth century they were useing the same scripture as the LDS Church. On top of taht we see it as far back as the Second Century (some claim the First) in the "Shepard of Hermas" were he speakes of the Apostles being Baptised for the Dead.

John Pack Lambert of Michigan
Ypsilanti, MI

As I have said in other contexts, I have no objection to anyone doing any services of any kind for my deceased relatives. That said, I fully understand and support the position taken by the Church on this matter.

The people involved will have chances to meet with their bishops and to have other proper procedures taken. However, submitting these names for temple work represents a deliberate attempt to go against the directives of the Church.

Everyone has some sort of relatives who the work has not been done for. There is no excuse for anyone to go submitting non-related people for temple work. This is especially true with so many more resources having become available of late.

John Pack Lambert of Michigan
Ypsilanti, MI

To link this issue exclusively to the Holocaust is to miss the point. The issue is not so much the Holocaust as the Christianphobia of many Jews. They have an irrational, unjustified fear of Christianity. It is a standard quote from some "to baptise a Jew is worse than to kill a Jew."

It is only once you realize these facts that you can begin to understand the extreme anger involved in the statements of the people involved here. Added to this is the fact that most Jews who get involved in these discussion really do not understand the meaning of baptisms for the dead, no matter how many times we say it, the fact that we do not claim there people were other than Jews does not stick in their head.

To illustrate what I mean by the "to baptize a Jew is worse than to kill a Jew" after my grandmother was baptized a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints her Jewish relatives included her on the list of the memorialized dead. In their view she was dead.

This is not just a dislike of other religions, it is specifically aimed at Christianity. David Ben Gurion, Israel's George Washington, was at some level a Budhist. People who have denied the existence of God can go to Israel as Jews under the law of return, but people baptized as Catholics cannot go there under that law, even if they saved many Jews from the Holocaust.

John Pack Lambert of Michigan
Ypsilanti, MI

Those who advocate "catching Jewish names" are speaking on pretty shaky ground. Exactly what names would count as Jewish names? Do you want temple workers to step in and say "no, you can not do the work for Ruth Schrieber, that is a Jewish name." So what if it is, it is also my great-great grandfather's sister, and she came to America long before the Hitler was known by anyone living in Germany.

Beyond this, "Jewish name" is in many ways a false notion. There are many Schriebers who are not Jewish at all. One of the Jews mentioned in these discussions was a Rabbi Cooper. The vast majority of Coopers are not Jewish.

John Pack Lambert of Michigan
Ypsilanti, MI

A court would not even entertain a lawsuit on this matter. To do so it would have to find that among other things that people can bring slander cases related to deceased people, and that performing ordinances that are believed to be helpful to the deceased individual in question is in some way slanderous. No judge would ever consider such a proceeding, and any lawyer who would even try to start it would deserve to be removed from the bar.

m.g. scott
LAYTON, UT

Jack Pack Lambert makes an important point about names. I once knew a Jewish girl who had the last name of Nelson. The name was changed when the family came to America after the war.

Re: spring street

It matters why this is becoming public because it might help track down who is doing this and why. I believe it might be the work of people intentionally trying to cause a problem for the Church. Don't you understand that? I doubt that when this all plays out we will find out that some high church offical ordered these baptisms done. Much as some of you would like that to be the case.

mustberight
MESA, AZ

I thoght the purpose of the new Family Search was to prevent the duplication of ordinance work.

KC Mormon
Edgerton, KS

mustberight
That is the purpose. That is why the accusation that this is coming from some insider that wants to hurt the Church does not make sense. With simply a name and birth date or death date I can find any person and find what Temple work has been done for them. The reason the Church set this up is because in the past you had to go check a microfiche at a Church history library to see if a persons work had been done. People were not doing this and work was being done for the same person many times. I have an ancestor that I found had had his work performed seven times.
For those who wonder why the Church does not keep these records secret how then would we know if an ancestor's work had already been performed? we would be wasting time doing work that had already been done and not doing work that needed to be done.

sharrona
layton, UT

RE: KC Mormon, Baptism for the dead. (1 Corinthians 15:29),(Against Marcion 10) and Chrysostom (Homilies 40) attributed the practice to the Marcionites and Cerinthus whom they identified as a heretical gnostics(they have the truth)), Consequently the practice was forbidden(condemned) by the Catholic Church, and is not practiced by Christianity, whether Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant.

Some members of the early Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints now known as the Community of Christ also believed in baptism for the dead, but it was never officially sanctioned by that organization.

elarue
NEW YORK, NY

This sounds like what happened after the manifesto. Certain people defied the policy, and the President of the Church intervened and put his foot down. Sounds like the proper course of action.

James B. Young
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

A great big shout of thanks to the LDS authorities on this issue. A gentle reminder to those who still resist being chastised, gently or otherwise, that this issue is sensitive to many non-church individuals and groups. The LDS authorities should not have been put in this situation by church members that could not grasp just how sensitive an issue this was to many peoples and groups. I have been increasingly impressed by the willing of the LDS leadership over the last few years to go the 'extra mile' at times, despite some of the at times few fractious in their membership, to reach out and change boundaries into negotiable borders. Thank you.

will7370
LOGAN, UT

Just curious-----how are they going to stop this from happening after the start of the Millennium? The work's gotta get done sometime before the thousand years are over with. Not doing it now just makes more work for us then---and we'll already be overloaded with ordinance work then as it is.

Gary Moore
Bountiful, UT

If I thought that death was my final opportunity to make religious decisions, and I assumed that everyone else in the world believed the same, baptism for the dead wouldn't make any sense to me, and I'd be suspiciously looking for an explanation for just what those practicing it are trying to pull. We LDS have not done a very good job informing the world that not everyone believes that death is that final opportunity. A shame, because that is one of the greatest doctrinal truths revealed by the prophet Joseph Smith.

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