Comments about ‘Supreme court to take new look at affirmative action’

Last semester I finished a paper in my graduate HR class on the the problem of affirmation action.

Please get rid of it. It only makes everyone feel like a Second Class Citizen.

It makes those who are admitted solely on their race feel like Second Class Citizens because they realize on their own merit they did not earn entrance. That's like getting an A when you know you did B or C quality work. And of course it makes the students who deserve to get in feel like Second Class Citizens because they had the wrong gender or skin color. That's like getting a F when you know you deserved an A.

I care not what skin color a person has nor their gender. Let the best most qualified candidate be the one selected.

Affirmative action is needed.

My examples to support this are:

** Study: African Americans Paid Significantly Less Than Whites' - By Boyce Watkins, PhD - Aug 3rd 2010

** Invisible Men: Many young black males are in crisis' - by Ervin Dyer, Pittsburg Gazette

'...high school, black males are more likely to drop out; in 2001, only 42.8 percent graduated from high school, compared to 70.8 percent for their white counterparts. - Article

** Education is key to easing poverty' - Deseret News editorial - 08/23/09

And yet:

** Utah Legislature: Lawmaker proposes ending affirmative action in higher education' - By Josh Smith - DSNews - 02/12/10

Result?

** Backers of proposed Utah affirmative action amendment don't show' - By Lisa Riley Roche, Deseret News - 12/03/10

I enjoy when people are against affirmative action who...

took out a loan to pay for college.
Grant
GI Bill

or took advantage of a tax break.

These are ALL, examples of public. Assistance.

But affirmative action, is 'bad.'

Sarcasm

affirmative action is reverse discrimination, It hurts minorities when I was in school the teacher left the class room, a black student started going around coping other students work, I told him if he cheats how is he supposed to learn the material to get into college? His reply they will let me in just because of my race.Also according to some studies at the current birth numbers of races whites will be the minority within 50 years, so does that mean affirmative action will apply to whites at that time? People should be awarded things based on their merits not their race etc. just make it illegal to ask for race on any application. Seemed to me even Martin Luther King Jr said I have a dream that one day my children will be judged by the content of their character not the color of their skin. Affirmative action makes everything they apply for and do in life based on skin color.

I share an experience like many may have had, of being accosted by a jubilent woman in the hallway at IRS, who wanted me to know she had just gotten a wonderful job, would have her own office, promotion without competition, etc...I asked her what the qualifications for such a job was and she soberly replied, "I have just what they want, I am Mexican, and I'm a woman." I soon left employ at the IRS, knowing as a white caucasion male at IRS in 1982, I'd be going nowhere, as I did not want the process of becoming a woman or leaving my birth parentage to be adopted into another culture.

Pagan said:

"took out a loan to pay for college.
Grant
GI Bill

or took advantage of a tax break.

These are ALL, examples of public. Assistance."

Someone taking out a loan does not hurt or really affect the rest of us. Whereas affirmative action, which allows for reverse discrimination, is by definition hurting someone to the advantage of another.

I don't believe anyone should be put above another or given any preferential type of different because of race, religion, class, gender, etc. Let your merit earn your own way.

I know there is still discrimination in our society, but I can't understand how Affermative Action (if it promotes one race over another) is anything but State sponsored racial discrimination.

If we want to get rid of discrimination based on race... we need to change our society... not authorize the STATE to discrminate based on race and promote one race over another.

I think we need to address this problem at the grass roots level (in each individual's hear) not at the Federal level.

You will NEVER be able to legislate morality, or bring about equality by authorising state sponsored racial discrimination.

We need to start with each heart and mind... like Dr Martin Luther King said. Not by giving the government permission to exercise racial discrimination to counter those who still think race makes any difference.

I know there is still discrimination in our society, but I can't understand how Affermative Action (if it promotes one race over another) is anything but State sponsored racial discrimination. - 2 bits | 12:58 p.m. Feb. 21, 2012

Alright, let's start here.

We ACKNOWLEDGE that racism still exist's.

I have already given examples to support this.

But...?

There no but here!

The MOTIVATION behind affirmative action STILL exist's! Being black in American factually puts you at around 30% LESS THAN income of a white person in the same country.

SLC discrimination report. 2009.

You cannot petition to 'change' something...

if you have not resolved the root cause.

Want to change hearts and minds?

Don't support the repeal of policies against minority groups, in this case race...

that we AGREE are being discriminated, against.

That, supports racism.

Because we AGREE that affirmative action was created, because racism, is still real.

And the removal of affirmative action, still takes away ability for a person of color, to avoid being anything but working poor in this country.

Pagan,
We know discrimination exists (Hint... it always will in SOME people). My only point was making is... that reverse discrimination by the government (in the form of "Affirmative Action).. is NOT the answer. It wont' FIX the problem. Only changing the hearts will.

You can reverse discriminate all you want and it will NEVER fix the problem!

Pagan,

I work with a LOT of people of other races (I am a minority on my team) and ALL of them got there because of their talent NOT the color of their skin.

You degrade people of color when you ASSUME "the removal of affirmative action, takes away ability for a person of color, to avoid being anything but working poor in this country".

Affirmative action is NOT the only reason people of color are succeeding in this country. President Obama was NOT elected to the highest office in this country because of Affirmative Action.

People who assume people of other races can only be the working poor without affirmative action.... represent the lowest form or racists I know.

People of ALL races can succeed in this country WITHOUT affirmative action. Those who think they can't... show an incidious racism deep inside.

I KNOW we don't need Affirmative Action. I see it all around me EVERY DAY!

SOME people will always be racist. Affirmative Action won't change that.

Pagan,

I advocate blind hiring and believe that affirmative action is no longer needed. Blind Hiring is a hiring practice that masks the gender and race of the person. It is very possible to do this now with the current level of technology we have. Consider this as additional proof for the need for blind hiring.

In studying personnel from 11 major orchestras, Harvard economist Claudia Goldin and Princetonâs Cecelia Rouse found that 29% of females and 20% of males advanced to the final round in blind auditions. When auditions were not blind, only 19% of women advanced compared to 23% of men.â (Women For Hire, 2009)

Women are the not only ones who would benefit from blind hiring. With the economy still on its knees and most likely heading into another round of recession, there is an urgent need for the unemployed minorities, women and other protected classes of people, to feel like there is a level playing field; in which hiring is based solely on their merit. (Fox News, 2011). âRecent evidence suggests minorities are facing higher levels of discrimination in employment during the recession.â (Disabled World Online, 2010).

The need for a blind hiring system is even more apparent for minorities when considering the research data which indicates the, âwealth gaps between whites and minorities have grown to their widest levels in a quarter century.â (Huffington Post Online, 2011).

Blind Hiring is a fair practice as it levels the playing field for everyone. Minorities would have a greater chance of success when allowed to do so solely on their merit.

A local attorney had this to say on the matter: âI donât feel a slight variation from the averages is a justification for hiring an individual that will bring your human resources to the median. If you had more than a slight variation I think you would have to interview more people in order to justify whatever choice you make. For instance, letsâs say I had 10% fewer females than males. I don't feel if you have 10% fewer females than males that you have a justification for hiring a female over a male. But if all things being equal then it is okay to hire the female over the male. The defense for this position is if all things are equal, then you have to choose one over the over. And therefore, any choice you make would be discriminatory to the other party. Companies already know who they would like to hire and to make or cloak what would otherwise look like a discriminatory hire, they interview a disproportionate number of protected class applicants. And by doing this they can justify whatever hire they make based on merit.â

Affirmative action allows for reverse discrimination. Blind Hiring eliminates this and actually does far more good for minorities.

Pagan,
We know discrimination exists (Hint... it always will in SOME people). My only point was making is... that reverse discrimination by the government (in the form of "Affirmative Action).. is NOT the answer. It wont' FIX the problem. - 2 bits | 2:53 p.m. Feb. 21, 2012

What will??

Hearts and minds?

Your talking about taking an ACTIVE step (which we're NOT doing) to promote racial equality by taking NO action, which can take decades.

That's no solution.

That is a prediction.

Also, I am not 'assuming' race dictates a lower standard of living.

I have SUPPORTED that.

Twice!

It is not 'racsim' to present studies that support racism exists!

While your acceptance of racism negates your claims that we can 'change' it.

As such, you are contradicting yourself only.

In conclusion, you have presented ZERO facts to support your claims.

'race bait' people who present, facts.

And offer NOTHING to alieviate the problem.

Debating the points of racsim, that they are real, provable, and we need SOLUTIONS...

has been a waste of my time.

Pagan,
Cutting and pasting from articles does NOT make what you post a "Fact".

You say "you have presented ZERO facts to support your claims"
I told you I work an a very diverse group. I hired that group of people, and race was NOT a factor. That's a fact. Not a quote from some article that came up in a google search.

You said, "you offer NOTHING to alieviate the problem".
That's not true. I said we have to change people's hearts and minds (not ramp up affirmative action). Affirmative Action works to an extent, but it's artificial. It doesn't FIX the problem. We have to FIX the problem. Not cover it up.

You say, "your acceptance of racism negates your claims that we can 'change' it".
Again, not true. I can accept that SOME people won't change. You have to realise that to be standing in ANY sense of reality. To represent anything other than rhetoric and unrealistic idealism. Even MLK didn't want Affirmative Action. He wanted to change the hearts and minds of the people. That's what I want.

You say I "offered nothing" to solve the problem. I don't think that's true. I think YOU offered nothing that will SOLVE the problem.

Hint... a job is NOT all it's about. That's all affirmative action is about. It's about respect and true equality. NOT government sponsored IN-equality in the name of turning the table and attoning for past sins, or bringing about an illusion of equality.

I believe in REAL equiality. The kind GOD gave us. Not government created equality.

It IS possible. But minds and hearts have to change. Not everybody... just enough of us.

Re: 2 bits | 4:34 p.m. Feb. 21, 2012
"Pagan, Cutting and pasting from articles does NOT make what you post a "Fact".

Actually they do .... in his mind.

Pagan,

You're incorrect in asserting that any study you present could possibly prove that being a minority "dictates a lower standard of living."

You're confusing correlation with causation, an error that many people fall victim to when looking at statistics. You can look at such a study and reasonably conclude (at least based on the evidence provided by the article) that blacks are likely to make less money than whites, but you cannot conclude that they make less money BECAUSE they are black.

A subtle but very important difference.

I just want to remind some of you that only a few days ago you were talking about the "equal protection clause" ( the 14th Amendment) as the final say so regarding same-sex marriage. And that a public referendum or law banning same-sex marriage would be trumped by it as unconstitutional. Well, please explain how any law giving preferential advantage to one group over another is any different? You want same-sex marriage based upon the 14 Amendment, OK, you have a valid argument. But don't now try to defend affirmative action policies that use race, instead of sex, as being OK. The equal protection clause should be just as valid in this case as well.

Pagan your just digging yourself a deeper grave with every comment.

AA=racism and discrimination. Its time for it to go.

Pagan,

I believe that everybody should have an equal opportunity. Universities should admit and companies should hire based on ability, NOT on the color of their skin or their gender.

And THAT is why affirmative action is so bad! It DOESN'T do ANY of that! In fact, I would probably be offended if I were a minority. To think that I am held to a lower standard than everyone else is implying that they believe I am inferior to them. Wouldn't people want to SHOW that they are equal without having extra help that the others don't get?