continued.... So IMO the word of wisdom did not have to be revealed by god to
Joseph Smith - that same information was in a book written by a doctor 27 years
before that and clearly was available at the time. Here are some quotes from
that book just to give you an idea of where Joseph may have gotten his ideas,
again IMO."Concerning distilled spirits their frequent and
excessive use is not only unnecessary, but highly injurious; and has destroyed
thousands""It is rare to see great and constant drinkers
of strong tea and coffee, somewhat advanced in life, who have not some symptoms
of weakness, tremors, or indigestion: wherefore, it is judged, that the great
number and increase of paralytic, nervous, and hypochondriac diseases are, in
part, to be attributed to the frequent and excessive use of those articles,
drunk in a hot and strong state.""The oil of tobacco is of
so active and virulent a nature, that a few drops of it have proven fatal.This
plant is possessed of narcotic properties...""animal food
may be admissible by the human economy... temperate and sparing use of it is the
surest means of preserving health"
m.g. scott - I agree with you that we should listen to past prophets
revelations. That is one of the problems I have with the word of wisdom. The
church doesn't adhere to the word of wisdom as it was revealed by god to Joseph
Smith. Meat was supposed to be consumed sparingly, and now it is consumed
without restriction. Obviously meat is unhealthy for us, especially in the
quantities we eat it. So that whole part of the word of wisdom is ignored. Also
the original word of wisdom allowed the consumption of beer but didn't allow for
strong drinks. This is evident because not only did many apostles in the 1800's
continue to drink beer, but Joseph Smith himself drank beer. Surely if anybody
knew what god meant when he revealed the word of wisdom, Joseph would. But now
the church has changed that direct revelation. It is still in canonized
scrupture, yet parts of it are ignored. It doesn't make sense. Also,
I own a book printed in 1806 called "Means of Preserving Health, and
Preventing Diseases." It was written by Dr. Shadrach Ricketson. It is
strikingly similar to Josephs word of wisdom.
"Assuming of course that there actually was a global flood which geological
research suggests there wasn't. As m.g. scott pointed out, there is
a significant body of scholarly evidence regarding this. It isn't hidden from
those who want to study it."(Plus Noah would die because of the
global warming that would occur having that much water vapor in the atmosphere
and he'd die because of the pressure of having that much water in the atmosphere
since it'd be like pressures experienced when one is at the bottom of an
ocean)."Obviously you've never been in a place where the
humidity ever reaches 100%. It's intensely difficult to deal with but has none
of the silly supposed consequences associated with the idea of global warming,
manmade or othwerwise.
@BrahmabullAssuming what you say about the journal of health in 1830
is true, but a prophets words are not just for the time in which they were
stated. As recently as the 1950s for instance you could see advertisements for
cigarettes being good for ones health. And alcohol has become much more deadly
today than it could have ever been back then, due to drunk driving. Many
revelations from the past, Bible,BOM,D&C,ect. are even more relevent today
than when they were given. That is a fundamental principle of the LDS Church.
Gracie - yes actually I have listened very closely. I have not heard anything
that qualifies as a revelation in my lifetime. M.G. Scott - I agree
with you there have been some good teachings i.e. word of wisdom, staying out of
debt, etc. However, the word of wisdom as it was revealed to Joseph Smith is far
different than the word of wisdom we follow today. And yes, many people of the
time knew the benefits of obeying it BEFORE the prophet Joseph Smith revealed
it. The journal of health in 1830 taught alcohol and tobacco were bad, and
eating fruit was good. That was 3 years before the supposed word of wisdom
revelation, so it was already an idea floating around and needed no revealing.
@alt134There is however evidence of a huge flood in the part of the
world,(the only known world then) where Noah was. Id like to hear
the skeptics explain how the revelations from LDS Prophets have been wrong or
bad for mankind. Example, the Word of Wisdom was given long before we
understood that for instance tobacco, alcohol, could cause so much harm. Staying or getting out of debt. What better lesson could be taught,
especially today.Having a supply of food and other essentials.Strongly supporting marriage and family. The backbone of our nation.Many other things too. Even if you don't think they come from a
prophet, you certainly can't disagree with them as good teachings.Even if you don't think these lessons come from a prophet, you certainly can't
rationally disagree with them.
"On another note, I haven't heard any revelations in the 29 years of my
life anyways.... Teachings yes, revelations, no."Apparently you
haven't been paying attention.
John the Beloved, 3 Nephites? Are there others we know not of? We don't know
Since the begining of man's history he has had a mystical connection with
superstitions, healers, sooth-sayers, prophets, etc. and all kinds of
imaginations that have evolved over centuries into complex religions and church
organizations. All this began tens of thousands of years before Christ's time.
Oraganized corporate religion like Mormonism is just the extension of man's
exploitation by soothsayers and superstition. There have always been the
dooms-dayers with their threat of the end of times. Man has been on earth for
over fifty thousand years and he will be here another fifty and by that time
thousands of more religions will have come and gone.
Gregg Weber - No, actually if you believe in the great apostasy as taught by the
LDS church the gospel was not around between shortly after the time of christ
until Joseph Smith restored it. That is a basic LDS teaching. So rather than say
"we don't know everything" and speculate, why don't we go off of what
we DO know at this point? On another note, I haven't heard any
revelations in the 29 years of my life anyways.... Teachings yes, revelations,
"Without there being a known prophet around. We don't know
everything."And I would say that there is no such thing as a
"known" prophet.It is based on faith, belief and
conjecture. As is everything to do with religion.
atl134 wrote "Even the LDS church believes that we went over 1500 years (as
far as Europe is concerned since they didn't know of the Nephites, over 1000 for
North America) without there being a prophet around."Without
there being a known prophet around. We don't know everything.
@Ross"People today seem to think that religion must be comfortable,
forgetting that it was not too comfortable for those left behind when Noah and
the Ark rose to to the top of the water above them."Assuming of
course that there actually was a global flood which geological research suggests
there wasn't. (Plus Noah would die because of the global warming that would
occur having that much water vapor in the atmosphere and he'd die because of the
pressure of having that much water in the atmosphere since it'd be like
pressures experienced when one is at the bottom of an ocean).
People today seem to think that religion must be comfortable, forgetting that it
was not too comfortable for those left behind when Noah and the Ark rose to to
the top of the water above them. Gods ways are higher than our ways, as in the
time of our death, the master knows better than we do, and he is in control.
This life is a test, when God speaks we should listen and obey. There is nothing
weird about it.
I don't know if all Presidents of the LDS church would qualify as prophets. I
have my personal doubt about some personal opinion expressed by some of them. On
the other hand, I have heard very inspired talks by other leaders of the
Church.I don't understand why evangelicals have this animosity
against the LDS church, if we are supposed to judge by our fruits, it seems that
a good LDS should be a wonderful Christian. Even though I have moved
away from the Church, it seems I will feel a Mormon until I die.My
dear RanchHand, I agree with you to some extend. However, I still hope and pray
for President Monson, the Pope, and other spiritual and secular leaders.
Because, I believe that God will not leave us alone in our pursue for equality,
social justice and a better world for all his children.
I will never, ever, EVER again trust anyone who tells me that god speaks to them
about what I should do (I was LDS, once upon a time trusted the leaders).If god wants ME to do something, he can come tell me directly; theres no
need for an intermediary.
Even the LDS church believes that we went over 1500 years (as far as Europe is
concerned since they didn't know of the Nephites, over 1000 for North America)
without there being a prophet around.
If ever in the history of mankind with evil and corruption at every turn, we
need revelation from God today. I am so grateful for personal revelation in my
own life and hope to live worthily to continue to receive it. And God makes it
available to all who will obey and live His commandments and draw near unto Him.
Good question. Maybe people think that as soon as we developed scientific ways
of determining the state of things, God decided we could manage on our own?
Personally, no matter how much I can do on my own, I know I can't do EVERYTHING
- especially not figure out what God wants to tell me by using scientific
techniques. Maybe, as JoeBlow says, people have gotten more sceptical. But
completely discounting the possibility of modern reveletion isn't skepticism,
it's just closing your mind and heart completely.
I don't know that there is a specific cut-off date.However, history
has shown us that there are lots of people claiming to know God's will. For
those with persuasive personalities and leadership skills it can be a ticket to
power and money.How many really felt that Jim Jones, David Koresh, L
Ron Hubbard or Warren Jeffs had any inside information? Probably just their
followers.Maybe we have just gotten more skeptical, and rightfully