Comments about ‘Report ranks Utah 42nd in education; educators take review with grain of salt’

I cannot believe this board is not on fire. These are our children folks. Why are we not doing better? Why is this not a higher priority? What is dragging us down? Are you all content for your children to be mediocre?
I hope when I sign back on I see some parents and teachers discussing what is wrong and how to fix it.

Note to the State School Board. You can't dismiss criticism simply because you don't agree with it. What is supposed to happen is you take the compliments and critiques and formulate plans for the future. Burying you head the sane with rose-colored glasses on doesn't improve anything for anyone.

Utah is first in the nation in percentage of children classified as "special needs."

Correlation here?

Note to CHS 85: The areas the state is ranked low in are the ones controlled directly by the legislature or state board. The areas the state ranks high are the areas controlled by the local schools and local school boards. Low in one area and high in another equals a C grade.

The State of Utah spends less in Education, simply because this State chooses to keep the local Education Dollars Local.

Let's have more Transparency in Education Spending, before we encourage our State representatives to spend more and more of our tax dollars to Education.

The teachers are not currently commenting on this article b/c they're busy doing more important things, like educating the children. Also, you would do well to check the report. What matters most is how Utah's students are actually performing. Those other measures are indirect measures that the makers of the report suppose contribute to education but may not necessarily be so.

I'm more interested in how students are doing on the state CRTs, the ITBS, graduation rates and nation-wide aptitude tests, such as the ACT and various SATs. Some of those measures are in there, but they're hidden amongst the complaints about the formalization of indirect measures.

Also, I believe I've heard more than once complaints that the government is sticking it's nose too much into public education. Are you suggesting there should be more government control of education?

The school system probably loves this report. It is going to get them more money.

We don't want to pay any more in taxes yet we want the government to provide top quality everything for us. One doesn't happen without the other folks.

If you don't want half your paycheck taken so the govt. can do whatever with it don't complain.

You can't take this study seriously. It's a political agenda being presented under the guise of a study. There are specific metrics used, all based on end results rather than upfront dollars spent, laws promoted by one group or another, etc. When looking at that, Utah is jealously admired by other states. Washington state went for utasshellgame's transparency, centralizing education at the state level; the result has been catastrophic. Arizona, to avoid having special needs kids, dumbed down the system and now half the kids are bored stiff and don't qualify for college upon graduation. Note that a higher percentage of special needs and IAPs tends to mean that more attention is being given to individual students, giving them a better chance to learn and succeed.
This study in particular is designed to promote the passage of laws and estblishment of methods that give more power to an education union rather than help our children.

We moved here from a "great" school District in California. As soon as the school day ended the teachers would lock their doors. They didn't return phone calls and you were lucky to see 1 or 2 teachers at parent teacher conference. The administration were completely absent from us as parents. We moved here 5 years ago and it was the best thing I ever did for my kids. All the teachers my kids have had(most all) want to see our children succeed. They answer phone calls and emails. They are kind and helpful and work with kids who would have fallen through the cracks in California. I can't say how GLAD I am to be out of that awful "great" school in CA. If that is the kind of school that is getting a C grade... they really need to reevaluate the grading system.

So let's understand this. When Utah ranks high in a survey -- no matter the subject matter of the survey -- Utah has bragging rights and everything about the survey is "factual" and makes sense. When Utah ranks low on a survey we find excuses as to why the survey doesn't apply. Yeah that makes sense ... NOT. If the survey results aren't accurate to Utah, then they likely aren't accurate to every other State, which results in Utah still being near the bottom.

I for one can't afford to give more than 100% of my state income taxes to education. Parents need to be involved and those just screaming for more money don't have a clue about how money alone is not the answer. Look at Washington DC schools if you think otherwise.

We've always had great teachers in Utah and they do a good job with limited resources. But maybe education reform should be given some thought instead of just emotionally saying "it's our kids" and reacting in less than a mature way.

There's only so many dollars to spend, folks, particularly during a recession as deep as the one we've just experienced. Get involved directly in your student's education instead of deciding others need to pay more money.

Formerly, Utah was dead last in school spending:

**'Utah last in U.S. in spending per pupil - again' - By Molly Farmer and Lee Davidson - DSNews - 06/29/10

"The census found that Utah schools spent on average $5,765 per student in 2007-08. Idaho was second-lowest at $6,931 but that was still 20 percent higher than what was spent in Utah.
Nationally, schools spent $10,259 per student on average. That is almost twice as much as in Utah."

To be 42nd, while low IS a sign (technically) of, improvement.

Even Gov. Herbert has changed to match diversity of his education panel.

What I would take away from this is:

We have improved...

we must, do better.

Maggie - there is endless discussion on what's wrong and how to fix it by many people. the problem is no-one can agree on exactly what needs fixing or how to do it should we actually make some concrete observations.

There are some many misconceptions about exactly what is going on in education by people who never step into a real classroom. My father believes that not enough of the constitution or US history is taught in our elementary schools. He was very pleased and very surprised to see a Freedom Wall in our school that has copies of many of the original documents, used in the founding of our country, proudly displayed by the front door.

Could we improve on this? Yes. But is it as "bad" as my father thought? No.

It would be nice if - before speaking or writing quick, emotional responses to education articles - people actually found out the reality about what goes on in Utah's public schools first.

I take this study with a grain of salt as I also do with most opinions about Utah's public education - even as a parent of 5 successful students of Utah's public schools.

@ Pagan

I have heard that agrument "last in per-pupil spending" for over 50 years. (Somehow I knew you'd raise it yet again.) Get a new argument; that one is stale! How many people want to compare per-pupil spending between Utah and New York or Texas? What percentage of state income taxes in either New York or Texas is spent on education? (Hint: In Utah, it's 100%---why don't the education lobbyists ever mention that statistic?)

We need true education reform, not just more taxes; we are taxed to death and just look at the Davis School District if you want an example of letting a coupe people rip them off tens of millions of dollars in a text-book scandal and then they raise property taxes approx 10% each of the last two years.

It's insane and immoral.

So, who the heck is Quality Counts 2012? 42nd ranking in the state? Big deal. Okay, let's try this on for size. The Eddy Institute for States Academic Excellence 2012 has just rated Utah #1 in the nation for getting the most out of students without ridiculous and wasteful spending! Congatulations Utah. With the stroke of a pen you have gone from #42 to #1 in one fell swoop. Keep up the great work.

We need more money in schools, yet people complain that we don't have any more money to give. Personally, I feel that some of our laws that seem to have nothing to do with education keep us from having a larger tax-paying citizenship that would enable us to increase the amount we spend per pupil.

Our legislatures say they are pro business, yet they are afraid to charge impact fees when new housing and business developments are granted construction licenses. Well, wouldn't impact fees enable us to build more schools? More buildings means more people moving into an area, and that impact fee would help us build the infrastructure (including schools) to accommodate the extra bodies.

Our liquor laws and our refusal to pass hate-crime laws make us seem very inhospitable to a very important part of large communities--the young, single professional. If we became more accepting, we would possibly become more inviting to young adults who would contribute more tax dollars to our economy. Many companies pass over Utah because we don't seem to be accepting of diversity here. We are missing out on some great opportunities.

I can tell you, as a recent transfer from out-of-state, that the article is not far off. We moved to one of the better areas (top 5 in State High School, some of the best elementary and middle schools), and I can tell you that the schools here are a noticeable and significant step down. The biggest problems, in my judgement?

1). Too many young, inexperienced teachers.

2). Not enough emphasis on recruiting, training and retaining highly qualified math, science and language (reading/writing) faculty. In my limited experience here, I see talent jumping from the classroom to administration, or leaving the profession altogether just so they can make a reasonable income for their family.

3). Low pay hurts ability to hire and retain the best teachers, particularly in key areas like math and science. See #3.

4). Too much patting ourselves on the back. Wholes scores and college prep is ok, when adjusted for demographics, achievement is poor, if not abysmal.

5). Parent and school system expectations are too low for our students.

The current Utah education system will fail a huge percentage of students in preparing them for 21st Century Jobs. We need to invest more and invest smarter or the long term consequences will be severe.

There are a lot of problems with our education system here in Utah. There are also a lot of good things. The deputy superintendent was right to an extent that teachers are better than the study indicates, however, there are a lot of problems that are being glossed over as well. Our schools are terrible at really preparing kids for college. I graduated from a decent high school at the top of my class. I scored over 30 on the ACT. Yet, I was seriously underprepared for college, particularly in the area of mathematics. Since, I have been able to catch back up and am once again ahead of the curve, but it took a lot of extra effort that would have been made easier had my pre-college education been up to par.
A second area that really needs improvement is teacher compensation. I will graduate near the top of my class in engineering and technology education in a Top 5 secondary ed program, with a 100% guarantee that I can get a job anywhere I want upon graduation. I will not be spending my career in Utah, as much as I would like to. Many students in my field have similar feelings. It simply does not pay. If you want to get the best teachers, you're going to have to pay market value. A starting salary in the neighborhood of $25-30k per year is not going to cut it when there are dozens of states that will pay $40-50k for the same job.

I always tell people to proofread before you post, but I didn't last time around. Before I get any snarky comments, I know the difference between legislators and legislature. We often make editing mistakes.

My point of the previous post, however, stands. We all have a vested interest in improving education in our state. The reality is more money is needed to make it happen. Another reality is that many people already feel like too much money is being wasted in education. I would recommend to those who think that the schools don't need any more money to start volunteering in their local schools. Step inside the doors, offer help, and see what is really happening there. I am pretty sure most of you would see pretty amazing things happening. You will also discover how much those working in the schools really do care about the students and will do whatever it takes to help those kids succeed in life.

Education accounts for well over 50% of the entire state budget and we rank 42nd! Why? Where is the money going? Sounds to me like the "audits" of our schools have been conducted to perpetuate the status quo. What is district administration doing with our tax dollars?

The time has come for a no holds barred, every expense scrutinized audit of every school in every district across the state. Kick the union reps, administration hacks, and anyone else who has a little kingdom to run or build out of the building. Crawl through every scrap of paper and get to the bottom of it. No administrator can claim that they are not wasting money, and if they are claiming that then they should be fired for gross negligence.

Teaches are a dedicated group fighting administration, and the legislature to do a job that is crucial to this states economic viability. Lets give them the tools to really do the job by starting with fiscal responsibility. Lets give our children the moon so one day they can go there.