Re: Pagan | 11:33 a.m. Jan. 4, 2012 "But find NO ISSUE with asking
LGBT persons to be 'celibate' (no sex) until marriage"No one is
asking you to remain celibate. As a matter of fact it is a common practice to
live together without the benefits of marriage. The only time it comes up is if
you are LDS and want a temple recommend so that makes it a moot point for you.
There is more to child abuse than relations with underage minors. As if anyone
knows there own age there anyway. They are not free to do whatever they want.
I would like to know, are people leaving?
@pagan: As usual, you slyly twist the thorns. Of course you know, there is no
such thing as gay marriage under the legal definition in Utah unless you are
referring to a happily married man and woman. Prop 22 passed then overturned,
prop 8 passed then overturned, then not overturned, then ???. California still
doesn't know what their definition of marriage is. God knows what His
definition is and we, as a nation, would be better off, if we followed His
definition.Homosexual action has been certified by some governments;
however, married men in Massachusetts that engage in homosexual action are still
breaking God's law of chastity.
For the sake of historical accuracy, it was not Kool Aid, it was the cheaper
Flavor Aid. Jim Jones may have been insane, but he was also frugal.And I can't see where cutting off the future supply of potential FLDS child
abuse victims could be anything but a good thing.
@Time4moore:Looks to me that if Warren Jeffs can't be having sex, no
one else can either.Jeffs will experience some interesting situation
in jail. There's plenty to do... exercise, read, contemplation, you name it.
I hear that the whole Group is moving to Hawaii.The Hear, See and
Speak No Evil Blue State."reference was not intended when
written, but its good and right on and it stays"
Funny. People claim the FLDS are 'kooky' for following a leader who
makes a decleration of 'no sex' until he is released. But find NO
ISSUE with asking LGBT persons to be 'celibate' (no sex) until marriage... and then WORK to prevent gay marriage. *'LDS Church's
in-kind donations to Prop. 8 total $190K' - By Lynn Arave - By Dsnews -
02/03/09 'Proposition 8 was a ballot measure in California last
November that changed the state constitution to restrict the definition of
marriage to opposite-sex couples and eliminated same-sex couples' right to
marry.' *Mormon Church agrees to pay small fine for mistake that led
to late report of contributions in Prop. 8 campaign' - By Scott Taylor - By
DSnews - 06/09/10 Pot, meet kettle. If you don't like
how it looks on YOU, why ask it of others?
How did that no sex thing work out for the Shakers?
I would believe the other fairy tale before I would believe the Wall would
crumble. Send him to Denver. The Feds have a joint there thats Underground, 23/7
lock down and double Guards for any movement.Locked down 23/7 No Toys. They have
a Super Max called CB Six in Florence Az. that would work just fine.
@Time4moore:"Looks to me that if Warren Jeffs can't be having
sex, no one else can either."Have you thought your comment
through carefully? Certainly his adherents can do what they please... as can
Oh PleaseThere for a moment I thougt I was reading a SNL script.
Better get the rest of my food storage.
Re: IMAN | 7:59 a.m. Jan. 1, 2012 "who am I, you or anyone else to
tell them otherwise?"The FLDS are free to do whatever they want
UNLESS it involves having sex with little girls. Children belong in school and
at home nursing one child while pregnant with another.
Can they cut off all of Jeff's communication with the outside world? Seems
obvious to me that he is endangering people even from behind bars.
I find it difficult to believe that the rank and file membership of the FLDS
Church will abandon their husbands and wives just because Warren Jeffs says they
should. Nor do I believe that they will abandon their religion. More than
likely they will do what is necessary to prevent conception for a short period,
but over the long run, Brother Jeffs is likely to be replaced.
@ruthseeker:"Will those leaving the cult regroup and start
their own FLDS congregations?"They can. But what's wrong with
the FLDS? Sure, they break state laws such as involving plural marriage. But
alotta folks break state laws and nothing happens. Just get on a Utah freeway
to see folks breaking state speeding laws. It's not the same as polygamy, you
say. Well, thousands of deaths occur from breaking speed limit laws. How many
deaths have been noted from polygamy?
When the walls don't come down, I expect there will be a revelation explaining
why. I also expectThe FLDS will buy it hook line and sinker.
Ann Lee, one of the early leaders of the Shakers, died in 1784. It was still
going strong at the time of Joseph Smith, and there are still some Shakers alive
today. Banning sex does not lead inevitably to a Church vanishing if it
recruits new members.
I can think of other religions, such as The Shakers, that went "out of the
religion business" because it forbade sex and marriage between a man and a
woman. For some time, they took in orphan kids to fill their ranks, yet after a
while, they recieved few new converts and the orphaned kids chose to join the
world. This is what will also happen to the FLDS.
Well, Jeffs will winnow out the less faithful . . . or the impotent.
Sorry for all the typos as usual, my iPad thinks it knows what I mean, and often
is wrong... and I only find out too late.
It is a little frustrating reading these comments from both sides. Both have
taken a very biased view of the churches history. It is absolutely true that
justifiably so the early church took a very isolationist tact. Unbelievers or
those that strayed were asked to leave, and non-believers who passed through
were not trusted. There were many events that drove the church to that position
then, and is in deep contrast to the policy of the current church. But those
are social/political driven decisions, not gospel doctrie driven. It is a little
sad that many don't understand this part of the churches history.At
the same time, anyone who has studied the history can easily identify how Jeffs
has bastardized those early teachings for his own advantage, resulting in
nothing resembling early church doctrine. To try to draw parallels stretches
history to unreconizable representations of what happened.Jeff's
truly is a sad man desperately trying to maintain control of others lives solely
for his on benefit and not out of live for those who follow him..... At least
that is my opinion.
Impartial7: His name is Joseph Smith (not Joe Smith) and polygamy today is not
what it was back then.
The difference is, as earlier mentioned, in that "by their fruits ye shall
know them".We have NEVER declared Joseph to be without sin!, We do
declare Christ to be the only one. We also declare that He leads His church. AND
that is the real difference in this. How do we know? By individual,
personal revelation - not by counting how many generations of LDS one has in
their genealogy.How do I know? By earnest prayer and by following
Christ and His called servants, the Prophets.In 1967 I stopped two
missionaries on the street in Finland to tell them how wrong they were. I did
not want to become "a mormon", but what I heard things I could not
deny, because I had known the Truth as a child... Later on my testimony has only
strenghtened as I have followed in His footsteps, and followed His Prophets...
And as I have seen the fruits of their labor.
Well said Jack. There are many malcontents who have an ax to grind against the
LDS church. They use pejorative terms, ad personam arguments, and try to tear
down faith by injecting doubt wherever possible.To your point, the
original (and current) LDS faith is about personal revelation, living prophets,
family, industry and the Living Christ and His doctrines. Not much has changed.
Yes, we no longer practice polygamy as these folks love to point out, but the
LDS church has always been about building better families and communities.
Everywhere they went, they made the places better - Kirtland, Nauvoo, Salt Lake
City and many communities all over North America, Central America, South
America, and now places all over the world.To look at what the FLDS
have done in comparison is a study in contrast. Rather than unleash the
potential of those who follow Jeffs and his brand of religion, Jeffs has created
a dying community, ravaged by mounds of heartache and pain by abusing his
self-proclaimed authority as a leader of his community.
To Mark;What, you think I was born yesterday? Good Heavens! I have many
ancestors who practiced polygamy and I think I have a better handle on what the
Prophet Joseph (note that I don't use "Joe" Smith, like an anti
would)said than Impartial7 would. If you were to pay attention, you would note
that my post was more about that, than polygamy. Neither Joseph Smith nor
Brigham Young tried to control things like Warren Jeffs is trying to do, nor did
they declare marriages, baptisms and memberships null and void until they
personally reaffirmed them.. Such is not part of the LDS faith, then or now.
Warren Jeffs is about control, the Gospel isn't. Warren Jeffs is trying to
cover his sins, the Gospel doesn't do that. So, next time you feel that urge to
wade in, stop and think about what is being said and about what.
Jack, how would he know that the FLDS, is closer to the original Mormon religion
then the LDS church is? Good heavens! Study! Learn LDS church history; read what
early LDS church presidents said about polygomy and its roll in their religion.
The FLDS is far closer to the original religion. Of course they
won't teach you this in your LDS church meetings today.
Obviously he expects to be in prison minimum 40 weeks after the edict.
To: Impartial7,And you know this how? I tend to think that you have
a bit of partiality, more than your moniker would imply. "Joe" Smith
is used as a pejorative by those wishing harm to the LDS faith, so I gather from
your use of it that you feel the same, and are therefore disqualified from any
credibility regarding LDS beliefs, past or present.
For all of you bashing Jeff's (& rightly so), you really need to thank Joe
Smith & Brigham Young for the FLDS lifestyle. It is more true to the
original mormon religion, & the BOM, than current day LDS.
To iman ... Any religion that allows/conducts/recommends activity like Jeff's
where underaged children are raped (which is the fact for any child involved
intercourse) should have it's rights cancelled.Also, I am abhored by
some of the comments on these pages like referring to kool-aid. I consider them
totally bad taste and not fit for these conversations. We are, afterall, talking
about victims (many of them totally innocent) that suffered under sick/satanic
leaders who themselves were engaged with adultery and underaged children. When
we talk about these events, let's show respect to whoever suffered and address
Now there is a church I might be interested in. Come on everybody lets go.
What? No takers?
Re:Tyler Ray | 9:17 a.m. Dec. 31, 2011 Regardless of your biblical
quotes IMVHO my question stands. If ANY religions' practices break the law the
responsible individual(s) should face the consequences of a secular judiciary.
That being said the practices of the Fundamentalest LDS are THEIR BELIEFS, THEIR
FAITH. My personal opinion of their practices aside, who am I, you or anyone
else to tell them otherwise? Do You really want religious freedom as outlined in
the constitution of the U.S. or do you prefer what is popular and commonly
acceptable here in the U.S.? Seriously, think about it.
This all sounds so bizarre, that I wonder if this is really true? Not just
banning sex, but cancelling ALL covenants/sealings! That now they all live in a
state of NO memberships, NO marriages... Till they are rebaptized and blessings,
including marriage, restored...This is much more than no bicycles and no
sex!THEREFORE, I truly hope the Deseret News has researched this
fully, and this is not just something DN hears from relatives.Allways, even when reported by our own press, remember what the media has
spoken about us. The lies and halftruths we have heard from even the most
respected media... We should never allow that to stain our own media.
If Jeffs has declared all marriages void then the women are free to leave their
husbands along with the children. In his own crazy way Jeffs has freed those who
have wanted to get out of his oppression, without out retribution. The FLDS
will survive though. Sooner or later they will appoint a new Leader and
Jeffsrole as their prophet will be past history once the majority of the FLDS
realize they cannot live their lives the way he has ordered them to. They will
still be polygamists but will leave Jeffs church and start a new one. FLDS do
not have a monopoly on polygamy.
I worry for the pregnancies conceived and children born some months from now. I
hope social services is paying attention in some months. Can't he be
barred from any communication at all?
It is easy to follow Iman's view point when religion in general is more than
some what strange and cult like and churchs are pretty much the same in kind
just differ somewhat in degree of enslavement of mind, soul and body.
Religion always wants to control sex, doesn't it? Doesn't matter, though,
because i haven't been able to get much past the censors today.
Well does not this order show that Jeffs has banned illegal relations between
adult males and minor females? Should this willingness to conform to that legal
issue not be counted in his favor in considering parol?
IMHO --- I believe God is ultimately in control.I suppose
Warren Jeffs might actually even be bidding his will with this one. What,
you say? Why is that?Let me explain thus -- BECAUSE....Outside influences has never been able to break up the
FLDS zealots for over 120 years.But, this may be the straw from
within, that finally breaks the camel's back.Thanks Warren.God's children might finally come out from their oppression.By bad
things happening, good is then allowed to prevail.
I am not here to condemn any religion but no organization should be able to
facilitate in child rape.Jeffs is going to find out really quickly
how cutting off sexual relations will destroy his power. In the history of
mankind sex and greed have never been defeated.
Will those leaving the cult regroup and start their own FLDS congregations? Or
will they join mainstream society?
I own a business in St.George Utah and many of Jeffs followers come into my
store. For a long time I thought that these people were very backward in
communication skills; until I found out that they were ordered not to speak to
anyone outside the FLDS faith unless it was over business.These people are
controled in more ways than you can imagine. I hope this so called religion
fails soon and these good people can recover and become who they want to be. We
may all need to help them in some small way.
How is this edict going to be enforced? I thought there were measures in place
to keep Jeffs from dictating to his flock and running the church from prison?
I don't think this is going go toward and early release for good behavior?
This will certainly lead to the end of the FLDS church, if not by everyone
finally getting fed up and leaving the cult, in time this sex ban will lead to
having no next generation left to continue the cult, because the evil Jeffs is
not getting out of prison any time soon.
This is one bizarre commandment, which flies in the face of the first
commandments given to Adam and Eve. This is what comes of a church based on man
and not God. This will be an extermination order for this group. If there are
no more children to control then there will be no more church.
I think Jeff had a come to god moment. He knows his followers will jump off a
cliff for him. By refraining from sex prevent future offsprings from facing the
same deadend all his followers are coming to realize. I bet Jeff is practicing
selfdestruction of his type to end the misery he had been preaching for
Warren, may you live to be 100. I hope more of the people in this group will
figure out that the person leading them is 100% certified crazy.
Jeffs "The Cool Aid is ready"
Sounds great, where can I sign up?
Iman, "by their fruits ye shall know
them." The fruits of the leader of the sect are what make them appalling.
Rape, destruction of agency, forbidding of good things. Not ok for any religion!
Goodbye FLDS.We're going to miss you. It might take a generation
but if ya ain't gonna play, ya ain't gonna stay.
What makes the FLDS religion any more or less strange, appalling, cult like,
etc; than any other religion? It is puzzling to see this particular religion
openely criticized while criticisim of any other religion appears not to be
Time4moore - I was thinking the same thing. And he believes this
will bring about his early release how? I feel sorry for the young people being
raised under the leadership of this group. How very sad their mortality will
be wasted in this way because of the ravings of a very selfish man.
This isn't religion, this is the ramblings of an imprisoned madman whose own
lust and selfishness drive him.
Looks to me that if Warren Jeffs can't be having sex, no one else can either.
We need to thank Warren for ending his own sect, unfortunately it will probably
last about a week.I can't believe anyone actually listens to this guy any
longer.The scary thing is that there are a lot more where he came from.
Well I have to say he will be successful. He will winnow his group
down to only those who are truly loyal to him as is said in the article.
However, that number will be less than the fingers on my hand. If
someone had purposefully tried to destroy his power over his group, they would
have failed miserably as compared to his crazy plan. Good riddance to him and I
hope he never sees the light of day. I do not mind someone having a different
opinion than I do, but he is obviously hell-bent on impose his will on anyone he
can. Again, he will be successful on imposing his will on an
extremely small number of people, but will ultimately destroy the FLDS church.
Let me see if I understand......1. I get to have sex2. I get
to bring a beautiful new life into the world3. I get kicked out of this
church run by an extremely evil man.and the down side is.......what
I think Jeffs is confusing himself........what he really meant to say was when
that "other place" freezes over!! In the mean time he'll continue to
rot in prison!
This is hilarious! I predict a long dry spell for the FLDS faithful. May they
dwindle in numbers until their purposely remote settlement becomes a ghost town.
The rest of us can accept these people back into society where they belong.
Mr. Jeffs has a long prison sentence in front of him because he did criminal
things which he refuses to acknowledge were wrong. This will not please the
Texas parole board.
Wow warren jeffs....no bicycles, ATVs, trampolines and children's toys? Now
there's no sex? What's next? No medicine, food, water, and oxygen? Would you
croak already please?
What a horrible deal to try and unwind? It is good that families are flocking
from this community but their current lifestyle must make it hard to assimilate
into a different society when the baseline fundamentals are askew?? When one
father/husband leaves Jeff's experiment, and he has multiple wives, where do
they go? Leaving Texas seems easy and bless those shelters who take them
in...but after that the real problem exists...These refugees must
feel totally misplaced. My heart breaks for the children. It's always the
innocent who pay the price.
Jeffs might want to study up on his scriptures while he's in prison..."...Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them
male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother,
and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they
are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let
not man put asunder." -- Matthew 19:4-6"Now the Spirit
speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,
giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in
hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to
marry...." -- 1 Timothy 4:1-3"And again, verily I say unto
you, that whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God, for marriage is
ordained of God unto man." -- Doctrine & Covenants 49:15
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the edict is going to be broken
long before the prison walls are.
Please stop refering to it as the "Fundamentalist LDS Church". Either
use the whole name or FLDS. The other name is far too confusing and misleading.
Where's the Kool aid?
This is Warren Jeffs not Alma and Amulek The walls ain't falling any time
soon in my humble opinion
Wasn't one of the first commandments to multiply and replinish the earth.....now
how are they going to do that. Jeffs ain't getting out anytime soon.
Jeffs sounds like he is a minion to Satan. Satan wants all men to be miserable
like himself and so because Jeffs has to be celibate while in prison, everyone
else has to be celibate also. He is definitely a control freak and loves the
attention that the newspapers are giving him.I am so sorry for those
who are blinded by his corrupt power. I hope all family members and friends of
those people who are still following him will find a way to reach out to them
and help them escape.
Hilarious. Cutting of sex will kill the religion quicker than anything.
Every so often a religious leader will come out and command his followers to do
really kooky stuff. Jim Jones and his deadly "cool aid party?" The
Heavan's Gate group waiting for the spaceship that was following the Hale-Bopp
comet?People are free to follow any religion they want to, but
disintrested observers must note that some religious leaders have pretty kooky
ideas, and followers might want to think long (and prayerfully?) about the
wisdom of their religion compared to others.Especially when a leader
has been convicted of criminal offenses.I wish them all well,