National Cemetary truth: Since 1996, Wiccans and others had
approached the VA asking that the Wiccan pentacle be added to their "list
of allowable religious symbols". They stonewalled for over a decade.
Finally, the VA was faced with a lawsuit to force them to comply with the First
Amendment of the U.S. Constitution which requires that no government law or
regulation infringe on the separation of church and state. Rather than fight a
lawsuit that everyone knew they would lose, the VA caved in and authorized use
of the symbol in 2007.Crosses in National Cemetaries exist along
side other religious and non-religious markers including atheism so the argument
about crosses in national cemetary or nation owned cemetaries needing removed
because of this lawsuit is unsupported by reality. Most religious and
non-religious beliefs are represented with a marker that represents that
particuliar deceased belief or religion if possible. Shoot down that
argument!It would have made a lot more sense to design a "Utah
State Trooper" memorial that could be used for ALL troopers both past,
present, and future because it would represent the troopers and not a specific
belief like these crosses clearly represent.
I wonder when he's gona go after the organizations responsible for installing
power lines....Seriously tho, the act of respecting the dead in any
manner by placing any marker to remember the individual has been handed down
from almost every religion.
Atheist attorney(s): You got what you wanted which was money making publicity.
Now, get your head out of the sand and realize that others have rights in the US
also. Its time to let this go. Take off to the gym or something to relieve the
I disagree with some of the comments posted. I have lost several fellow officer
and they have cross to show honor and the love we have for the fellow officers
who gave their life for the people they sever. i am tried of the Aetheists
calling a cross has any other meaning than to honor a fallen officer. Maybe
these aetheists need to call on themselves the next time they have a crime, or
an accident and leave other Aethiests handle it. Maybe move to another country
were there is no cross or christian.
Many readers insist that a roadside cross should be viewed as a symbol of death,
not as a symbol of Christianity.This means that when we go to a
cemetery and see a cross, the message of the cross is that the fellow in the
grave is dead. Otherwise, we might be unsure and perhaps even suspect that he is
carrying on a secret life underground. (Some people will do anything to avoid
taxes.) When we come to a Star of David at a gravesite, we recognize that the
person was Jewish, but we really don't know if he is dead because there is no
cross to indicate death.The fact that most gravesites have no cross
suggests one thing: There may be large numbers of undead in our cemeteries.Let's excavate. If we discover a subterranean population of undead, we
could tax them and pay off the deficit.
@Clarissa "How sad that a small minority of people feel that they have the
right to destroy something that has great personal importance to some
people."I agree it is a shame. However, it is, unfortunately,
necessary. Religious people demonstrate time and time again that
they are not satisfied just following their own chosen religion, but invariably
they attempt to force others to live by their religious doctrines as well. I put before you for your consideration religious lobby groups who seek
to influence the law of the land according to various religious doctrines on
issues such as abortion, gay marriage, stem cell research, exemptions to
anti-discrimination laws, proselytizing in elementary schools, the army, etc. I
could go on indefinitely.If religious people just followed their own
rules without insisting that everyone else follow them as well, we wouldn't have
to resort to such ridiculously draconian measures as disclaimers on crosses, and
a remorselessly secular government.In other words, give you and inch
and you'll take a mile. So we can't give you an inch, sorry.
We won this battle. Just take the crosses down. The side of the roads is NOT a
graveyard. Build your memorials in the graveyards. Knock yourselves out putting
up religious symbols in those graveyards. Leave the public highways alone. The
Supreme Court has spoken. Honor and obey the law, for crying out loud.It is finished. Move on. Stop wasting everyone's time and money dragging this
out. Your religious fanaticism is backfiring. People are leaving religion in
larger numbers than ever before because you go too far. Stop already. Enough.
You lost. Get over it.
The State should sell a reasonable square footage of land where the crosses are
for the going rate of real estate to a group who will then own the land and
maintain the memorial privately.
The laws are here only because you have the freedom of speech earn by the faith
of the United States Military and it's Veterans. The laws support all sides. The
Ten Commandments are the base of all law. Deal with that a while.
The Aetheists are such a small percentage of the minority. My father is one of
the names on the memorials. It's ridiculous to most so leave it alone.
The law is the law, and we atheists have the law on our side. deal with it.
ParkCityAggie crescent moon and star/or star of David symbol. You can find both
of these symbols on head stones at city, county, states and national cemeteries.
That is all government properties own by the citizen of this country. But I
don't see the lawsuits in court over all the cemeteries owned by and managed by
the governments but I do see the Ten Commandants remove from Courthouses around
the USA. ACLU is involve with taking down those. So why doesn't the ACLU and the
Supreme Court remove all religious symbols from every building in Washington
One old man has a valid solution. Here's another: Just saw off the top of the
post above the horizontal piece, making them into a T. I know of no religion the
uses the letter T as a symbol. Although I support the honoring of
fallen troopers I detest all the other roadside-makeshift memorials such as
small crosses, balloons, flowers, and Christmas trees placed where supposedly
somebody of the general populace has had a family member die. Those things need
to be taken down the same hour they are put up. Where's Mr. Barnard and his
employer when those things go up?
Roman history teaches us the use of the cross came long before the death of
Jesus Christ on the Cross. That was the preferred way of death in the Roman
Empire. The United States Constitution grants the right of religious freedom.
That doesn't mean others can tramp under foot those freedoms. Groups like
American Atheists and the ACLU are anti everything seeking to destroy the rights
of the people. Which is also a form of religion.
Brian Barnard is fighting for your rights! Do some research on this group who
has been pushing the crosses in Utah and other states, you'll see their goal is
simple to "secularize" the cross, not to honor our fallen heroes.
They just found an agency in Utah willing to allow them to our public lands for
their cause. You start allowing religion and government to mix, which is the
ultimate goal of this group, and most of you may find your churches and
religious liberties outlawed. Think about it! These people want undeserved
political power, we fought this in the 1700's remember! We didn't want a
theocracy, we wanted democracy! Tell these guys to put the crosses on private
property, not our property! If we want to honer our fallen heroes, I can think
of a myriad of ways to do it w/o putting religious symbols on public lands! Do
I get to come put a crescent moon and star/or star of David symbol in the park
strip in front of your house? NO! Why allow this dubious Christian group to
put up crosses up and down our highways!?
This whole thing is so stupid! Enough!Don't we have better things
to worry about than memorials on the side of the road?
Groups like American Atheists and the ACLU are ridiculous. When they win a
ruling they go to court to have the organization they sued pay their legal fees,
or when an organization tries to get around their suit they threaten with more
litigation and we the taxpayers pay their legal fees. It is time for the state
legislature to get involved and pass laws that will stand up to challenges from
the minority and also not let them trample on the religious rights I have
guaranteed to me in the Constitution. I am tired of having we the taxpayers
paying for frivolous lawsuits which violate my constitutional rights.
If you give a mouse a cookie, he's gunna want some milk....
Comply with the court ruling. Trying to find a sneaky way around it will only
result in more wasteful spending. Most insulting are the people who say
"Yes, its a cross, but not a religious cross." or "Just pretend
its not a cross!"It's a religious symbol. Everyone knows it is. The
courts know it is.Replace them with a non-denominational memorial.
What religion does a cross represent? When I see a cross to me it represents
death. Then any monuments along city, county, state and federal street or
highways from any religion would be illegal. The cross has been place where
people have passed away. Therefore the cross doesn't denote any religion. How
many of Utah Peace Officers that have passed away in the line of duty are LDS?
The Church hasn't any kind of symbol. If a poll were place at where a death has
occurred with the person name on it. What religion would that be? The cross has
been use since before Christ. I guess these people who bring this before the
courts don't ever pass away. Here again is a minority of people who think they
can act as authority and violate the majority.
Constructing any type of memmorial to a dead person beside the roadways is a bad
idea. If it is a privilage for one group, it should be the same privilage for
all groups or individuals and soon the roadways will look like cemetaries. There
should be more action removing adverdisement from the roadways; not adding to
the distraction. There are proper places to honor and place monuments to the
dead, but it is not beside the public roadways.
Don't get this wrong. I fully support the crosses. But instead of wasting time
and money pushing this, why not alter the cross by sawing off the horizontal
pieces and replace it with a replica of a trooper's badge?Oh, I know
that would be surrendering. But is this all really worth it?
So, what of the Normandy American Cemetery and Memorial honoring the American
soldiers who died in Europe in WWII? It is an American cemetery, operated by
the American government, with Congressional financial support, where the
American flag flies, since it is soil granted to the United States of America by
France. Have you seen the moving tribute there? Nine thousand,
three hundred eighty-seven crosses and stars of David in neat rows honoring our
soldiers who died making the world a better place. Is that Barnard's next
target? Go ahead and try it. There are some things that are worth fighting for
and I for one believe that this is one of them.
The story notes that Utah has paid $300,000 in legal fees already. Mostly to
Mr. Barnard, the "community organizer" for the perpetually offended.
This is a very lucrative racket for those folks, and although they may win
cases, they are still just flat wrong in their campaign to deny a small token of
respect and appreciation for fallen law enforcement officers.I hope
that this prolonged, tort torture process will cause the Legislature to change
our laws so that "loser pays" will dampen the enthusiasm for filing
frivolous lawsuits like this. By the way, the sight of an atheist's
lawyer deeply offends me as a symbol of state supported anti-religion. Can I
sue and win a jackpot like they do?
So let me get this straight... apparently atheists can push their beliefs (or
lack thereof) off on to others, but Christian families cannot choose to have
their loved ones who died heroically and tragically honored in the manner that
is meaningful to them. No one is trying to push Christian beliefs off on to
these atheists. They are welcome to not believe in God if they are so inclined.
But this is just absurd and wrong what this group of atheists are doing.
How sad that a small minority of people feel that they have the right to destroy
something that has great personal importance to some people. The law may be on
their 'side,' but just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. I
hope they can find some way to preserve the crosses. If the group who is against
this really wants my respect, they should offer to pay to replace the memorials
with something that would not 'offend' their beliefs to show respect for these
great people who died so tragically.
"But Barnard said that also had been tried in other states, and purchasing
'postage stamp sized pieces of land' also would not work. 'A private plot of
land in the middle of government land still gives the impression of government
support,' he said."Mr. Bernard, you are too worried about
impressions to care about the will of the people and the rule of law. If the
law says they have to be on private land, then who are you to tell the people of
the state of Utah how that land is to be allotted? Please stop wasting the tax
payers' money on frivolous litigation.
Brian Barnard needs to find something more useful to do with his life. This is
utterly ridiculous! I don't drive down the freeway, see a cross and say . . .
"hey, I feel like Utah is forcing me to be christian. I'm
offended."Barnard needs to go back to his own state.