Salt Lake county still split three ways; Demos may sue
Re: On the other hand | 1:56 p.m. Oct. 20, 2011 Don't take your loss
so hard. It should help toughen you up for the loss the Democrats are facing at
the ballot box in 2012. I'm still hoping the Democrats can get Obama to come to
Utah and campaign for their man. He certainly fired up the Republicans in 2010
and I'm betting he will do it again.
"We don't mind the Democrats joining us. They can come for the ride, but
they gotta sit in back."And leave the room every time a
decision is made, apparently.All hail The Party!
Re: On the other hand | 2:28 p.m. Oct. 19, 2011 "The Party has
spoken. All hail The Party."To paraphrase a comment Obama made:
"We don't mind the Democrats joining us. They can come for the ride, but
they gotta sit in back."
The Party has spoken. All hail The Party.
Re: rightascension | 4:00 p.m. Oct. 18, 2011 "I have been Republican
since 1974"I vote for the candidate not the party. If the
Democrats in Utah feel they are being abused they should invite Obama to come
here and campaign for them. On second thought that might not be such a good
GOP House not agreeing. Not agreeing. Agreeing to not agree. Not agreeing with
the Senate. Agreeing to not agree with the Senate. Agreeing to compromise with
the Senate. Agreeing with the compromise with the Senate.Couldn't
agree to close the caucus. Those that didn't agree couldn't agree to fight. The
GOP house was as divided as the map. The final tweaks to the senate
passed congressional map were drawn with staff and the computer room door was
wide open. Anyone from the house or senate, democrat or republican could have
If residents of rural counties think that Republicans are always going to vote
their way when four or five of their representatives live in SLC, they are worse
than crazy.That's exactly what this map is going to cause.A rich republican representative to Congress that lives in Salt Lake City, or
Provo, or Ogden, is not going to at discord with rural Utah counties MUCH of the
time and you'll find your Republican representatives and Senators will care very
little about your concerns.Rural counties NEED rural representation,
Representative Jim DeBackis has no room to talk. He and his caucus was clearly
informed and after months of debate and citizen input in one of the most
collaborative and open processes in our history, a map was finally drawn. The
only reason why it was voted on by the Republican caucus in a close-door meeting
at the end was because of a threatened law-suit by the Democrats who are a bunch
of party hacks and will resist any effort to re-draw districts that is not
allowing one district to be completely Salt Lake county. This has been the most
fair process ever in redistricting and will easily survive any lawsuit from the
Democrats. The Democratic Party needs to grow up and accept the urban-rural
premise for all four districts in the state.
Matheson should NOT even think of running for governor. Governor Herbert is one
of the few Republicans who will receive this registered Republican's vote.IF Matheson thinks he has a high favorable rating by Utah residents, he
needs to run in either his new or old gerrymandered district...or better yet,
run for the Senate against Orrin who has been in the Senate 3 terms too long.BTW, why wasn't Rob Bishop's 1st Congressional District radically
realined? Rich, Cache, Box Elder, Weber, Tooele, Juab, Millard, Beaver, Iron,
Washington, Kane, etc. counties have more in common than Rich, Cache, Box Elder,
Weber, and Davis counties. Davis County is NOT a rural county anymore.
@SalSo would you feel the same if the Democrats had gerrymandered
the state? I'm sure a flippant "to the victor go the spoils" wouldn't
exit your mouth. I don't care so much about the redistricting. I
am being moved from the 2nd to the 3rd District regardless and being
"represented" by a man who wants to eliminate my job and my family's
livelihood. My problem is the way it was done behind closed doors. The
public's business needs to be done in public. If I am paying their mileage,
hotel, per diem, and salary, I deserve to know what is going on. They are
employed by me and as their boss, I demand better than be to called a
I have been Republican since 1974, but here lately I feel like I am in a family
that has gone utterly dysfunctional. I really dislike the redistricting map,
how this map suddenly appeared in secret(from where??), and that the legislators
voted for it about the time Utahns were getting ready for bed. Rural Utah should be in one district. The legislature finally had a chance to
consolidate rural Utah into its own specialized district. Voters could elect
someone from somewhere other than the Wasatch Front to Congress. Instead the
legislature passed THIS map. All 4 representatives could live on the Wasatch
Front. 3 of them could live in Salt Lake County. Giving the Provo
district Emery, Grand, and San Juan Counties is awful. Exactly what issues
does Provo and Moab have in common? The rural counties should have received
their own specialized house district centered on Saint George. SLC
and St.G in the same district? UnbelieveableIf the Republicans
cannot defeat James Matheson on principles, they shouldnt do it by redrawing the
lines. Just because it is done elsewhere is no excuse to do it here.Governor Herbert should veto the map.
To the winner go the spoils. If Democrats don't like the new maps then they
need to appeal to more voters in order to have more control over the process.
I'll have to agree with President Obama on this issue. He had this to say about
the GOP joining Democratic efforts for reform: They can come for the ride, but
they gotta sit in back.If it applies to the GOP in Washington why
shouldn't it apply to Democrats in Utah?
Last statistic I read Utah's population was 62% LDS -- a church that has much to
say against secret combinations. Do these LDS politicians practice what they
preach? Guess not ...
Demos may sue? Count on it. This has been their plan all along. Sure as the sun
comes up in the east and sets in the west, they will sue. Never doubt the Demos
love with litigation and judicial fiat. Is everyone ready to have your voting
rights held hostage?
To A_Chinese_American | 12:47 p.m. Oct. 18, 2011 The problem is not
close[d] door meetings, nor "crying baby," it's governing of the
people, by the people, for the people.Republicans show by their
actions that they believe in "of the elected, for the elected, by the
elected."And the people should therefore be thankful to
"Big brothers," all.
I jusy LOL when reading most of the crying baby here! Stop whining, period. It's
legal to have a close door meetings, show me how it is iilegal! People, remember
this: ? "you will know it after you pass it" That documentation would
change our nation was not even being discussed before it passed. Still whining?
This is why it doesn't matter if you vote or not in Utah. Everything has already
been decided ahead of time in backroom, secret meetings.If you want
to be part of the political process, stop voting and join a secret combination.
I suspect if the Democrat legislators not been so quick to threaten a lawsuit,
that the conversations would not have been behind closed doors.As
far as requiring a full citizen review at each level of the process to establish
the new congressional map, at some point you have to take all the feedback given
to that point, draw a vote on the map most favored and move on. I believe this
is what occured.I also believe with some honestly, the disagreements
are not really about the process of selection of the current map, but more
closely aligned to disagreement with the premise of the urban/rural map of the
state.Was the end result perfect? No. But if I were one of the
members of the legislature - which I am not, I also would have voted as they did
for the current map - based on what I have learned has been going on over the
last year in the selection process.
Closed doors is the problem and the Republican congress loves doing public
business that way. That's interesting because they are
representatives BECAUSE they won their election.Why do they then
have to go behind closed doors to govern?Why don't they govern in
the open since they were duly elected?What is their fear and what do
they have to hide?But the bigger question is, why is the majority of
the Utah electorate content with a closed-door governing process that the
Republicans feel a constant need to conduct?
@ Allen#1If you look at the map, Davis County has been split in
half, unless perhaps Layton and Bountiful are no longer both in Davis County.Did you give public input on your suggestion or save it until now?Salt Lake County ought to be split in half for area codes with the
northern half joining Davis County and the southern half joining Utah County,
but NO, they wouldn't go fo that so now we have the goofy 10-digit dialing for
every number and the new area code 385 is sprinkled among who knows where.I'm wondering what some of these areas have in common, other than we are
all residents of the state of Utah and we are now gropued into 4 areas instead
of 3. Certainly there was political reasons for the new map; I don't know why
people expect politicians to do anything that isn't political in nature as
that's their area of expertise....they got elected -- so apparently they think
they know best.
The new map stinks. Why not put Cache, Box Elder, Rich, Morgan,
Tooele, Juab, Millard, Beaver, Washington and other "rural" counties
into one district and split the heavily populated Wasatch Front into the other 3
counties?If it is fair to split Salt Lake County into 4 districts,
wouldn't it be fair to split Utah and Davis counties into 2 separate districts?
I like the map. I think it's right that the area where the greatest proportion
of people be broken up into four groups. If one political party wants to win a
race for a representative, show that they have the best candidate regardless of
Fairness apparently is not a value in this state. No surprise. This nonsense
will continue until a large part of the community learns the difference between
"voting" and "sustaining".
A "Senate leaders meeting in Argentina?" What the...?
Why are Utah taxpayers paying to send a state Senator to a meeting in Argentina?
This so soon after legislators went to meetings in Hawaii on the public
dime?Really?? Have these people never heard of Skype?
The threat of a lawsuit was simply an excuse to close the doors, not a genuine
concern. Every bill the legislature passes carries the threat of litigation
from one group or another. If the legislature closed the doors and met secretly
over every bill that might be litigated they would never have a public and open
debate on anything.And anyway, this is not some business decision,
this is the democratically elected state legislature. Open and public
decision-making is one of the very cornerstones of our system and should never
be discarded. The best way to avoid litigation, resentments, distrust, etc., is
to have a completely open process, ensuring a sound, logical, and object
Dear Kami in Bountiful. I appreciate your sentiment, and I'm sure it works for
children and church, BUT, in the real world, we have to use all of the power we
have to fight for our principles or we as a state and nation will end up like
the bankrupt state I came from. We should see by now that being nice to the
Democratic party does not get us progress, it only gets us stepped on. I look
at this as a national fight, not just a local one. I'm sure most Democrats here
in Utah would be nice people to be around. But, Harry Reid???Nancy
Pelosi??? We can't let people like that ruin our country. We have to change
course and fast. Respectfully.
How many of you, if you had a lawsuit hanging over your head, would openly talk
about issues that were guaranteed to be brought up in the lawsuit. "You
have the right to remain silent. Anything you say may be used against you in a
court of law." Quickest way to shut someone up is to bring in the lawyers.
If the democrats wanted it to remain open, they should have never threatened a
This solution is as good as any. It has the same number of people in each
district, which is the ONLY actual requirement, ensuring "one man, one
vote."As for some Democrat whining that "...each district
is more than 62 percent Republican..." anyone smarter than a fifth grader
would note that the entire state is more than 62 percent Republican, so this is
a fair solution. To end up with a Democrat majority Congressional District
would indeed be gerrymandering of the worst kind, as would ensuring Republican
super majorities in three of the districts.Now, let the election
races begin, and see if the Democrats have any luck selling their big spending,
big government solutions to Utah voters.
As a registered Republican, I'm disappointed in how this whole thing went down.
The closed caucuses particularly frustrate me. I can't speak for other
Republicans in this state - but this one will be voting for the opposition in
the next election to send a message. I hope a significant number in my party
will join me.
Many Utah voters, including me, will REMEMBER what our "lawmakers"
(and our Governor) did this past year. They have done everything possible to
destroy any rights that the people of this state have. They
announce in the newspapers that they send out questionnaires to their
constituents asking our opinions concerning legislation to be brought up in
their next sessions. I have lived in the same home, and been registered to
vote, for nearly 6 years. I have never received one of these questionnaires --
or any other correspondence from my Republican State Legislators.There is something wrong with the governing in this state, and it needs to be
Why is Waddoups in Argentina? Who is with him? Who is paying for this little
junket? This is crazy!
For all of you crying about this, just remember that these are the same folks
that gave us HB 477. Proof of your being upset will be reflected at the ballot
box in the next election. If history is any marker, voters will prove again
that they have short memories, as politicians thrive on such.
Our Utah Republicans act just like the Obama Democrats. They don't care what
the public thinks, they know best. Remeber the Democratic Speaker of the House
telling us that we would find out what was in Obamacare after it was passed.
The federal dems didn't care what the public thought. Doesn't that remind you of
the Utah Republicans. Going back a few years, a majority of the patrons of the
state did not want vouchers. Guess what, they passed the bill anyway. "We
don't care what you want or what you think. We know best." Sound
familiar. We do need to vote out every legislator who participated in the
closed and secret caucus.
dumprake: if it were just about doing what the majority wants, why did the
Republicans not go along with one of the publicly-developed and
publicly-scrutinized plans? Why didn't they pay attention to any of extensive
public input? Why did they make this decision behind closed doors in a private
caucus?You say nobody likes democratic values. Are you saying you DO
like the values on display in this process? Are secrecy, smoke-filled rooms, and
utter disregard for the public the Republican values that are important to you?
Waah, waah, waah, you're Democrats, nobody likes you or your values, which is
why you're an insignificant minority in Utah. This is a Republic, the majority
decides. Utah certainly didn't elect a heavily Republican legislature, only to
have the Democrats decide the districting issues. Stop whining and swallow your
Charles,Rather than get down in the gutter and insult you like you
did with me, I think I will just stick to the facts. The Utah State
Constitution like most state constitutions is crafted after the US Constitution,
so there are many common principles. I thought most people understood that
concept. Not sure what your list of programs approved by the United
States Congress have to do with doing the peoples business being done in a
closed caucus but oh well it is a nice list I guess.The US
Constitution was based on the Virginia state constitution and as you correctly
point out was written behind closed doors. You neglect to point out however that
it was thoroughly debated in public and took two years for the states to ratify.
The problem with the Utah state legislature is that the debate is always done
in private, not in public where it belongs.In terms of Maryland I
will take your word that what you say is true. I believe wrong is wrong, I
don't care about R's and D's.I hope this time I know what I am
Just more examples of second-rate government....
"Tensions high over drawing new congressional districts; Republicans come
up with new map"This Republican Congress has made history as
the most incompetent and self-serving in history.
"Democrats are irrelevant in Utah; now if we can only make that happen
nationwide we will restore this nation to what it once was -
prosperous!"Really? You really think that all we need is
complete GOP control to make this country "prosperous"?If
only it were that easy.If only history proved you out.Be
careful what you wish for.
Hey Fred: You do realize that the Constitution of the US has no dictates on how
things are done in state legislatures, right?And while were are
talking about what isn't in the US Constitution lets add the following:ObamacareSocial SecurityMedicareforeign aidCars for
ClunkersBailoutsGovernment takeover of companiesCornhusker
Kickbackthe 2nd Louisiana Purchasejust to name a few.I was reading an article from Maryland the other day and it was the exact
reverse of what is happening in Utah. The Repubs in Maryland are saying the same
thing that the Dems in Utah are saying about redistricting. Are you concerned
about their secrecy or just when it happens to Dems?It would be
helpful if you got a copy of the US Constitution and the Utah Constitution and
read both of them.Then the next time you post you'll know what you
are talking about.Also, can you tell me if the creating of the
Constitution was done in the open or behind closed doors?Democrats
are irrelevant in Utah; now if we can only make that happen nationwide we will
restore this nation to what it once was - prosperous!
"What the ...?!" David Garbett says. Something is seriously wrong if
the citizen map drawer doesn't even recognize his own map.
bring the process into the light of the public eye.
Mary,I agree with you especially the part about working within the
constitutional framework. Our founding fathers created a system where the work
of the legislature was to be done in the chambers of their respective houses in
full view of the people. There is nothing in the constitution that calls for
political parties and caucuses. There is certainly nothing in the constitution
that calls for decisions to be made in a caucus and then brought out for a show
vote because you have a super majority. The founders thought debate and
disagreement was healthy and would lead to decisions that would best serve
constituents. Creating the caucus system in way that was not
expressly prohibited by the founding fathers in not illegal, but using it to
prevent the public from seeing issues debated was certainly not what the
founding fathers had in mind. If the Utah republican legislators truly cared
about the constitution, they would honor its intent.
All that was needed to drive this effort legally behind closed doors was the
potential of a lawsuit, which was quickly threatened last week by the minority
party.I'll leave it to you to determine if that was a wise thing to
Lane MyerOur elected representatives do represent the whole of their
districts, whether or not the whole agree with their votes all of the time. No
US Congressman is ever in 100% agreement with their constituency, but they still
represent their district.Our Representatives have taken an oath to
sustain and defend the US Constitution. I vote for the man or woman who I think
will do this best for me and my district. Sometimes I am happy and sometimes I
am disappointed, but I am grateful that we have Congressional elections every
two years so the voice of the people have a thumbs up or thumbs down vote on
renewing our Representatives elected status. May our Congressmen never forget
they are only an election away from a return to private life.What
makes sense to me is working and living in a community that holds my values and
understanding of the Constitution. And then joining together with my like-minded
neighbors to elect a representative who supports and will work for this within
the Constitutional framework. I've been involved in my community for
over 50 years and win or loose, every election that is what I do.
In the infamous words of your Dear Leader:"Elections have
consequences. We won!"Enough said!And Lane,
Senators are supposed to represent the interests of the state, not the people of
the state and where does it say in the COTUS that the Representative is supposed
to represent the people in their district?Maybe you should move to a
state that is dominated by Democrats and you'll feel better about life.
Argentina calls for an inquiry.
Mary E Petty Why have districts if all our representatives are
suppose to think, act, and vote like the majority? Why not just have a state
vote for 4 congressmen? The answer is that they are suppose to
represent the people in their district - senators represent the whole state.If there are 25% of the citizens who are democratic, shouldn't 25% of
the congressmen be democratic? Doesn't that make more sense?
Nobody likes change, but I am grateful we finally have our 4th Seat so Utah can
contribute more to federal legislative decisions. With Utah being a conservative
leaning State, I expect our State legislature to create a Congressional map with
4 district boundaries that will reflect this majority view point. And I expect
this voice of the people of Utah will speak loudly in the next election cycle as
a result of our legislators redistricting actions. Redistricting
will ruffle feathers but it is a tough job that must be done by our elected
officials. That is what we the people have elected them to do. As a part of
their constitutionally-mandated duty to redistrict Utah, they have openly
involved the public in the process and are listening to us. I for one, thank
them for doing this hard work in our behalf.
Senator Waddoups is in a senate leadership meeting in Argentina? Guess who paid
for that boondoogle? Yep, you did! That's why he likes to keep those districts
Tell me again why we don't set up an independent and objective process of
redistricting? This is, once again, representatives picking their voters
instead of the other way around. And save me the "both sides do it."
As Kami said, that doesn't make it right or desirable.
I would like to thank my representative, Jim Nielson, for standing up to the
Republican party leadership and letting it be known that he thinks these
caucuses should be open. I agree that the Republicans are doing themselves a
disservice (and they are doing their constituents a disservice) in closing the
meetings. I wish more Republicans would stand up for what is right and fair,
rather than just doing what they think will allow them to keep their jobs
(gerrymandering behind closed doors). PLEASE represent US, not yourselves.
I like it, let's get this thing settled!
@m.g.scott, Your position is commonly seen on the boards "I should be able
to do this because I see other people doing it too", so I'm not picking on
you, just saw your post as an example here. Let me just say that this mindset
is EXACTLY what is wrong with this country. By the time my children were 8
years old they knew they would never get away with that argument again to
justify their unacceptable behavior. Is all we have left in this country are a
bunch of followers who are following the wrong leader? Why won't people stand
up for what is right these days, instead of trying to excuse their behavior
because they see others doing it too?
Rural Utah gets the short end of the stick in the "pizza slices". Salt
Lake area always will get the representational priority and our issues will
never be addressed. Southern Utah deserves it's own congressman rather than
continuing as unrepresented peasants who are only spoken to at election time.
I'm from California. You should experience it when the Democrats do just the
same and ramrod new districts through that disenfranchise the Republicans, for
both state and federal offices. Complaints didn't get traction there, and I for
one am glad to see some Republicans taking a hard ball approach. If you have
the majority, take full advantage of it. I doubt the Democrats would do it any
different if they were in control.
"Senate Leaders' meeting" in Argentina? ReallY?
I'm sorry. "A Senate Leaders' conference in Argentina"? Really?
If they had nothing to hide, they wouldn't need to meet in secrecy.
I agree with Fred44. Toss the whole lot of them and start over. Whoever
campaigns against this current group has my support.
Please all Utahn's rise up and vote out every member of the House who went into
that closed door caucus. I don't care if you replace them with R's or D's, but
replace them. There blatant disregard for the citizens of this state is
shameful and should be rewarded by sending them all packing.