I see Vanka is still penning absurdities you know what the predominant
religion in Utah teaches regarding matters like this
What a stupid thing to do to someone. There is NO justification for this. And
there is No justification for anyone to point fingers at religion for this.
Whoever did it couldn't possibly be religious.
@ RABIt is sad when religion that is supposed to teach us how to
live together fails in its purpose, and instead, the messages we get is that a
whole class of human beings are sinners and not deserving of the same rights the
majority enjoys in a SECULAR society.RAB, I suggest to you and
others, try to practice "Cultural relativism" for a couple of weeks.
This means to try to look at the world as other look at it. In this case how the
GLBT community does.You may like to start by asking yourself, what
involves to be gay?, why somebody would choose to be gay?, do they do any harm
to society? How?Do they live any differently than you? Those gays who have
children, do they raise them any differently? etc.You may go the
extra mile and try to get to know a few gay people. After this
process your opinion will have more validity and would be supported by reason
and experience not only emotions or empty theories.Try it, you may
not change your opinion but you may grow.
This is absolutely horrendous. How could human beings be so unconscionable as
to gruesomely attack a stranger who did them no harm? I hope the animals who
did this are caught and sent to the Point for a long, long time.
Ranch:"There was NEVER a law that stated two people of the same
sex could not marry in any of the 50 states until someone actually tried it -
and bam! Religions blew a gasket"You are being disengenious
here and not telling the whole truth. Starting before the Stone wall riots, one
of the three main objectives of the gay agenda was to repeal all laws
prohibiging homosexual sexual relations. In 1962, sodomy was a felony in every
state in the US. Using the false and fraudulent work of Kensey, the mechanism
to achieve this objective was put in place. Subsequently SCOTUS ruled in 2003
Lawrence vs Texas that all sodomy laws were unconstituonal.If gay
sexual relations were illegal up until 1962 in every state in the US, how then
could SSM be considered legal and lawfull. SSM is just the trojan
horse the gay community is using to futher their agenda which is to silence all
who dare speak out against them whether by lawfull means or otherwise,
@RAB;You just don't get it, do you. Comparing marriage of same-sex
couples to "mobs attacking people they hate" is ridiculous. Same-sex
couples marrying hurts no one. It is people who preach against gays that cause
things like this. Plenty of churches preach against gays, you just aren't
listening.Actually, it is heterosexuals who are changing laws.
There was NEVER a law that stated two people of the same sex could not marry in
any of the 50 states until someone actually tried it - and bam! Religions blew
a gasket.The Constitution of the USA Guarantees equal protection to
ALL CITIZENS, regardless of what the "majority" may want. Minority,
majority, it doesn't matter - we are ALL CITIZENS. And if you think it is easy
for us to get the protections of marriage without one, you are sadly mistaken -
and obviously have never tried.Heterosexual marriage is
"officially condoned" by the government - so should same-sex marriage
---- because anything else is discrimination - and the government should not
discriminate against citizens.You will ALWAYS have the right to find
us icky. You do NOT have the right to vote on our Constitutional rights.
It's not just that gay community that's upset. I'm a straight Mormon
and this angers me too. This a despicable hate crime; It's sick and frankly
disturbing. I just hope the cowards that did this will be brought to justice
before they hurt someone else.
I am deeply saddened about what happened to this young man. Everybody should
feel safe in SLC, and such violent acts should not be tolerated. We need to come
together as a community and put a stop to such hate. That being said, I have had
both positive and negative experiences as a gay man growing up in an LDS
community here in the Salt Lake County.As a young boy--knowing full
well he was different than the rest of the boys his age--I heard my primary
teacher tell her son that God did, in fact, not love gays. How do you think that
made an insecure 11-year-old boy feel about belonging in church? Do you think
maybe that boy was treated differently by the other boys in that class after the
primary teacher made those comments?Just a few years ago at a stake
conference (I still attended church meetings), I overheard a woman laugh about
how happy she was that the rain must be ruining the "big gay party"
being held downtown. Although not directed to me specifically, I could feel the
hate in the tone of her voice. It hurt.
First time that I have ever heard of fights and beatings occurring outside of
bars. Guess, it has to be just a thing that happens outside of gay bars, or
maybe going to bars just has a certain degree of risk involved and patrons
probably should be aware of such. No need to talk about this being a
"hate-crime" assault is enough so find the perpetrators who sound like
cowards an let the law have its way.
ignoranceisbliss, I'd like to offer one bit of advice.I once told
someone, if you want intelligent critique for your work, go to the educated
community. If you want rude, thoughtless, and disrespectful criticism, then put
it on Youtube.Behind anonymity people can be very vicious, whether
your comments provoked it or not at all.In a philosophy classroom I
find a different paradigm. We all see each other as equal with different views.
We establish first that any view is welcome, religious, not, gay, straight, etc.
Then we discuss and disagree and agree.Hiding behind masks makes
disrespect a convenient choice. Instead, when we openly accept disagreement or
other views, we create a respectful, safe, and productive environment.I'd recommend this: BE personal, encourage it of others too! BUT, keep in mind
that you'll only find civility in a situation where mutual respect has first
been established. In the end we shouldn't hide our beliefs, but share them. When
we are willing to share our views and listen to others, we build a productive
future, a peaceful one. Hostility against another human being, simply because of
their differing view lead to the violence against this man.
"Straight community angered by gays attacking the institution of marriage
and the family. They call it a hate crime."Please tell me how
comments like this and "... I find homosexuality morally wrong and
unnatural, but I don't condone violence against those people..." do not
incite some people to treat the gay community poorly? I think many of us who
think was are loving and accepting need to take a long look at what we say and
how we act toward others. Our attitudes do influence others.
re:IgnoranceisblissPlease don't apologize! You absolutely were not wrong!
You didn't come across as attacking the LDS church, just relaying some
real memories, which are important. Did anybody take offense at what you wrote?
If they did, that is their issue, not yours. I think your experience can and
should raise awareness. And, I think your experience is pertinent to this issue
as well, because some LDS parents might think they are teaching their children
moral values but what is coming across, instead, is that the only good people
are Mormons, and that if someone isn't LDS, or is gay or whatever, we shouldn't
"associate" with them. We can/should learn from each other. Thank you.
Pagan, while your list of failings of the legal system on behalf of gays is
regrettable, I must ask, are you aware that far more crimes are perpetuated
against non LGTB people don't you? As far as the legal system goes it's a joke
for anyone gay or not, I'm surprised you even brought that up.
For the record, I am sorry to have offended anyone it was not my intention. I
was puzzled at how the comments had more to do with religion than with what
actually happened to Dane Hall. For some reason when I started to comment it
brought back those personal memories and I just decided to go with it in fact I
did not even think my comment would be approved because it had absolutely
nothing to do with the article and that is what I get for my assumption. I wish
I could take it back, but it is out there forever. I promise never to share
anything personal again. I had no idea it would lead to so many personal
attacks, I assumed from previous experience that the majority of people
commenting were quite intelligent and mature, therefore, capable of remaining
objective, for the most part. Was I wrong?
@RanchNormality of behavior does not justify it. It may be normal
for mobs to attack people they hate. Does that make it okay to you?You ARE trying to make your views into law. You approve of homosexual
behavior, so you want to change marriage so that we all must approve of it.It is a tiresome lie that equal protection cannot be achieved unless we
redefine marriage. The government currently allows homosexual
behavior to occur, but does not make any judgment as to whether it is wrong or
not. That is how it should be. Government approval of gay marriage, however,
inescapably makes the judgment that homosexual behavior IS OFFICIALLY CONDONED
and APPROVED. It is a moral judgment that ignores and tramples on the views of
millions of people. Your absurd claim that religions implicitly
approve of violence against sinners is a joke. Not only is homosexuality hardly
even mentioned in most churches, but shouldnt they also be beating up gamblers,
drinkers, addicts, and people who work on Sunday? Give it up.Am I
treating my kids badly when I don't let them have something that does not belong
to them? Such is life.
There's not much of a point of arguing with the LGBT community or the LDS
community on matters such as this. But I'm glad the LDS community appear to be
outraged too.A story like this breaks my heart and I can only hope
that this incident can lead to better understanding in the future and be a
Why would someone in utah 'choose' to be gay?
Pagan,You and other frequenters on here will know my views, so no
need to recap. But with as much as I defend anything coming from the Church, or
defend the idea of not blaming the church, etc. With that in mind, even I'll
stand behind saying "So... why are we making this a 'Mormon'
issue?".Just fyi, I made a suggestion to the D.N. staff to have
expandable comment reply sections where if someone says "Mormons..."
on a page that many will think unrelated (like this one), we'd at least have the
option to keep comments on that 'off topic' in it's own place. Some people seem
to even think that Mormonism and French Mustard are related. This would allow
for the vast majority to make productive comments, and those who let
conversations wander to enjoy their side issues.I got a reply that
seemed receptive to the idea and a couple others I presented. Obviously things
aren't changed overnight (as I wrote this in July) but hopefully we'll
eventually see some improvements.We've all probably gone off on our
own little ideas that weren't entirely related- I just wanted to let you know
about my suggestion.
Trying to designate anything as a "hate crime" is just a way for some
crybaby group to get special treatment.Maiming a person is wrong,
whether he is a member of some so-called "disadvantaged group" or just
some otherwise undistinguished individual.
CLarkhippoIt is too bad not everyone can be like you, right? I made it
through and it made me a stronger person. I was just trying to point out that
there is a lot of intolerance in this state and it is a shame. Please do not
presume that I go around placing blame where it does not belong because of my
sad story. I have not actually shared what had happened to me as a child growing
up and it felt good to get it out.
@RAB;The "behavior" you see as "unacceptable" is
NORMAL. Normal for both straight and gay people. LOVE.I view
organized religion as unacceptable and shouldn't have government acceptance.
Should my views be made into law?Seeking to enact legislation that
denies equal protection to glbt families is in fact punishing glbt families.What is really sad is that you can't see that and think that we have it
backwards.Allowing GLBT couples to marry, in NO WAY creates
legislation to "override their religious values". Religious people
are still allowed to NOT enter into a same sex marriage. All it does it
provides the same legal protections to GLBT couples that straight couples
already enjoy.When religions preach that homosexuals are
"abominations", "sinners", "destined for hell",
etc. They automatically give their congregants permission to treat homosexuals
badly. This is implicit in the message. It doesn't even have to be stated out
loud. When religions go out and campaign to restrict, or remove the
liberties of homosexuals, they are treating homosexuals badly. I'm amazed that
you don't see that.And then we wonder how anyone can go out and bash
some guys face into the gutter because he's gay?Really?
@Baccus0902 and @RanchYou both have it SO backwards. The LDS Church
is not seeking legislation to push their religious values on gays. On the
contrary, they are seeking to stop legislation from being created to override
their religious values. They are not seeking legislation to punish LGTB people
who hold marital ceremonies. They are not trying to force LBGT people into
accepting LDS doctrine. They are seeking to stop legislation from establishing
LGTB values as government--sanctioned values. How can you say that
the government SHOULD NOT BE allowed to make laws AGAINST behavior that a
religious group views as unacceptable, and then say the government SHOULD BE
allowed to make laws IN FAVOR OF behavior that the LGTB views as acceptable?
This is not equality. It is attempting to favor a non-religious group's beliefs
over many religious group's beliefs. Legalized gay marriage is IN FAVOR OF the
behavior that consummates the gay marriage.
This is not exceptable These Thugs Need To Be In JAIL.
I hear so much blame. I am LDS, but nearly half my friends are not LDS. The
truth is their is wrong on both sides. On my mission I was threatened multiple
times by people, including those from the homosexual community with violence
including one gay man threatening to stab me with a screw driver. What I took
from it, that unfortunately he had a bad experience with either religion or the
LDS church. I don't use that as a reason to hate him or any body else of another
religion, view, gender, etc. Yes, there are LDS people who judge to harshly and
tend to choose to not associate with with non-mormons. But I know just as many
incidences both personal and through friends where non-mormons have been just as
judgmental and sometimes hateful (as we see in some of the comments). The fact
is that the church does preach against such violence, but the bigger truth is
that as human beings we should not need a church or anyone else to teach us that
it's ok to disagree, but it's not ok to openly and directly harm someone else in
I wouldn't consider night clubs as safe. Especially at night.
No State needs special hate crime laws,however, if justice is served the person
or people who beat this guy this badly should go to jail for a very long time.
Its not that more laws are needed its the laws on the books that need to be
enforced. Gay or Straight the victim in this case deserves justice, send whoever
is sick enough to beat their fellow man up like this to jail for a very long
@windsor;Classic "Blame the Victim". Tell me, do you
advertise your own sexuality at all? Do you wear a wedding ring or have photos
of your family on your desk? Think about it. Seriously. You probably advertise
your "persuasion" a thousand times a day and don't even think about
it. Why should GLBT people have to live in a closet? @KM:Desiring to join the "club" isn't an attack. @CharlesExpert on sexual orientation are you? I did NOT choose to be gay. I
simply AM.RAB says:"...the LDS Church fully
tolerates and accepts homosexuals ...but does not want the government to stamp
its official approval on it."---Frankly it is none
of their business. The Constitution GUARANTEES Equal Protection to ALL American
Citizens, REGARDLESS what ANY church thinks about the issue.As many
others have pointed out, why do people think it is okay to do something like
this? A big part of the reason is that they've been taught that it is OKAY to
dislike others. Constantly harping on how "evil" some people are
creates an atmosphere of intolerance for those people and is subtle approval of
actions like those for which caused this article.
PLEASE PLEASE....this poor man was hurt by bad people, but who says anything
about them being Mormon. Last conference we were asked to not Bully treat gays
badly. Why does this have to be about Mormons? It's about a man who had every
right to be where he wanted to be and he was brutally attacked.I live
where there are a lot of German Baptist. They dress differently and are
different....yet, I don't hear when a gay person is attacked " Oh it must
be those German Baptist".I bet it was just someone who has hatred in
his heart for a lot of people. Don't make this into a Mormon/Gay thing unless
you have proof. And if it is a Mormon....you know he will get into trouble with
the law, and that happens, you get ex'd for something like this.
Consideration of underlying motives have long been taken into account in our
system of justice. Chief Justice William Rehnquist wrote that
increasing or decreasing a sentence based on the assailant's motive is common in
the law, and although a person's abstract beliefs may not be taken into
consideration in sentencing, racial animus or other prejudice can be considered
if they are relevant aggravating factors. Furthermore, Justice Rehnquist wrote,
enhanced penalties are appropriate for bias-inspired conduct because it "is
thought to inflict greater individual and societal harm," such as the
greater possibility for retaliatory violence, emotional damage to the victim and
community unrest.Re:AlpineBlueSorry, but I disagree. The prop
8 campaign was anything BUT loving, accepting or positive. As a life-long LDS
hetero member I was shocked by the negativity employed in the campaign, hugely
disappointed and deeply saddened that our church would be involved in such a
campaign. Though I fully expected the Church to take a stance I was astounded
at the negativity and demonization the campaign used.
Quote KM "Straight community angered by gays attacking the institution of
marriage and the family. They call it a hate crime. "Are the
mean gays breaking into your house and making your argue with your wife? Did
they make you get a divorce?Amazing talent you have to deflect
responsibility for your own house.
Quayle | 7:05 p.m. Sept. 1, 2011Here is what the Mormon church
teaches, so we're all clear:1. The purpose of our life is to
experience a very broad range of circumstances, urges, emotions, events,
thoughts, and desires so that we can learn to distinguish between the bitter and
the sweet.2. Sin is essentially doing those things that don't lead
to the greatest personal growth as a person. Therefore, more than anything, sin
is delay.3. But every single person is going to willfully sin. There
isn't one person, not even an Apostle (as they will well tell you) that hasn't
sinned.4. And sin can be erased by the Lord in an instance, so it
isn't an indelible trait.I don't see anything in the above that
separates out or denigrates gays or any person that sins. ===The presumptive assumption of your entire comment, Quayle, is that Gays
"sin" being gay and doing what leads to their own greatest personal
growth. (Love the sinner, not the sin).As long as that is the
underlying presumption, the bias we're trying to eliminate will continue.There is absolutely Nothing wrong with GLBT living a GLBT life.
Oh, my God. This is my final post, so I'm sure the barrage of
questions will follow however... no one is saying an LDS person did
this. I am regarded as a Mormon 'hater' by many on these boards, and I have
never once made that claim or implication. Go ahead, quote me. Now, instead of focusing on the CRIME, people are tripping over
themselves trying to place, blame. The motivations could be any
number of things. I am NOT trying to place blame. I AM however,
trying to point out, that this man, was ATTACKED. His jaw and cheek bone,
broken. And he is now missing six teeth. The MOTIVATION
behind this case, will be revealed in the dueness of time. But
majority of the post's on this page say one thing: "It wasn't a
Mormon." And not: 'How can we help the victim?' Focus, on the victim. Don't try to BE, the victim. I hope you all have a good weekend. And will some of you start CARING about
your fellow human beings, please.
Jeffry Wilbur, are you seriously implying that Mormons did this to this poor
young man? You do realize that SL County is hovering around 50% LDS population
right, so that alone gives you only a 50/50 chance. Of that 50% you can take out
the old, young, and women, from both sides as this was a crime done by young
adult males. Add in the fact that most mormons don't spend a lot of time in bars
and clubs (i realize some do, but most don't) and that brings the numbers down
even more. Then, my favorite, "jack mormons" or mormons in name only
who don't live by church standards or teachings would also account for some of
that 50% LDS population. It doesn't take a degree in Stats to see that it's
quite possible that the sick individuals who did this heinous act were not
practicing LDS. Quit being bigoted.
So why is a criminal attack on a person worse if it is motivated by
"hate" as opposed to greed, lust, stupidity, mistaken identity or some
other factor?None should be tolerated, and all punished equally.Or, are some people "more eqaul than others?"
'...caught & prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law but NO HATE CRIME
after all CRIME IS HATE.' - A_Zion_State_O'Mind | 1:12 p.m. Sept. 2, 2011 How many examples do I have to give? Matthew Sheppard.
Pistol whipped to death 10/22/09. Initial charges? Burglary. THEN
murder. Harvey Milk. Shot and killed on 11/27/78 By Daniel White. Charges? Manslaughter. Not murder. The murder of Gwen
Araujo. 10/03/02. After discovering Gwen was a man, she was killed by four men,
I believe with, a can of food. Initial case? Deadlock. SECOND case?
Murder. David James (DJ) Bell. Attacked in his home in 2008, initial
charges? Kidnapping...to DJ Bell! AFTER he spent $100,000 to get
aquited... assualt and 'incite to riot.' Here are not
one, two, but THREE examples where the legal system fails LGBT persons. If we
are not projected...as the assailant, we at LEAST need two trials to get
justice. Hate crime exist's: 'A crime where the fed's
can get involved (sic) the crimes committed are intended, not only, to hurt or
murder an individual but to terrorize an entire community.' - Rachel Maddow. So too, must it's punishement.
How messed up do you have to be to curb someone?
HATE CRIME LAW? ISN'T ASSULT MAYHEM LAWS ENOUGH HATE? I hope this man heals in
all ways & I hope that those responsible are caught & prosecuted to the
fullest extent of the law but NO HATE CRIME after all CRIME IS HATE. I live in
California where Mormons have been treat almost as bad as this but is that a
hate crime? The gays HATE the LDS Church & they vandelize our temples &
meeting houses, they drive good people from their jobs because they contributed
to Prop 8, how about HATE CRIME ENFORCEMENT THERE? See how there is no end to
this "HATE CRIME LAW" movement? Live & let live.
For all you who choose to fight and argue against each other about religious
beliefs, you disgust me! Read this article, look at the pictures, and direct
your anger against those who put this kid's mouth against the curb. To spend
time and comment space on anything other than trying to do something about this
hate crime is absolutely silly. If we cannot agree that these kinds of crimes
should not occur in our community for any reason, we are lost.It's
ok to be outraged, it's ok to be angry, it's ok to even be fearful, but let's
get together on this and insist that it doesn't happen again instead of pointing
fingers at institutions. If anything, we should be outraged that
this story is only getting out a week after the incident. Where were the news
agencies on this? Why have the police so silent on this? Why have I been
watching news stories about stray kittens instead of getting this as the leading
story all week?
This is totally uncalled for. I pray that those who think violence solves
ANYTHING would think twice before doing anything so dispicable. God bless the
young men who were attacked. Let's protect our neighbors, no matter what.
I can't believe how quickly people jump to Mormon bashing. Does the article say
anything about the perpetrators being Mormon, or even Christian for that
matter?No reasonable person would ever think it is okay to do what was
done to this guy. Just because the predominate religion in the state happens to
be Mormon (less than 50%, of which, less than half are active), it does not mean
they had anything to do with the actions of those men, and you are incredibly
unreasonable to believe otherwise. Even if it was a group of Mormon
Missionaries that jumped this guy, It would be the actions of "men"
and would have absolutely nothing to do with the church. The LDS faith teaches
nothing but love. You can't label someone a bigot just because they do not
wholeheartedly embrace a certain lifestyle. It is Pathetic that a
comment like mine even has a need on a comment board for article about a tragedy
such as this one.
@Quayle:Why do you relate a nightclub to the non-alcolic Mormon
Church? Salt Lake City have many non-Mormons who have moved in from other
@ utahboni 7:38 amAfter forty plus years of membership in the LDS
Church to include many positions of leadership, I have yet to hear one word of
rant or hate against the LBGT community. Not a single word! Some of you will
point to our support of Prop 8 in California and call it hatred and bigotry.
Nothing could be further from the truth-as Prop 8 did not declare any negative
thing against gays, but was only a defense of traditional marriage.For one, I am sick of being labeled a hater and a bigot-when it is absolutely
not true. Speaking for myself and the overwhelming majority of my
co-religionists, we have nothing but love and compassion for our LBGT brothers
and sisters. Not an iota of hatred or bigotry.Interestingly, it is
the haters/bigots like so many on this board that are the ones making these
accusations.The crime against Mr. Hall in Salt Lake is a crime
against humanity and we all condemn it. But, it similar to crimes that occur on
a daily basis in almost every major city in the world. To try and make it a
Mormon issue is disengenuous.
The fact that anyone thinks comment boards are a place for dialouge of this kind
is ridiculous. Has anyone ever had their mind's changed by reading a comment on
a board like this? I haven't. People who post--including me--are closed minded
and unwilling to view other people's points of view. Comments are intended to
get other people to think your way, and no one is ever convinced. If you really
want to get people to listen and understand there needs to be more effort than
typing for one minute to people whose names aren't known and whose identity,
face and real life situation are unimportant. Get out and meet people. Both
sides of the coin need this.The greatest irony. No one is going to
change because of my post. Why am I typing this... Because I am bored at work
and have nothing else to do. So why not.
@@Charles 11:50You wrote:"Those who bring the LDS
church into this debate are shallow, ignorant and unwittingly bigoted"Just as those people who believe that "Homosexuality is nothing
special or sacred. It's a chosen behavior that some people in society have
decided to engage in"
What ever happened to Love Thy Neighbor?
@Mike W,Respectfully, you are wrong. Attitudes about homosexuality do not
lead to violence. Only attitudes about violence lead to violence. Intolerance,
ignorance, lack of compassion, a propensity to be violent, and (usually) a mob
mentality, are what lead to violence. The LDS Church neither tolerates nor
approves of such violence. Whether anyone chooses to believe it or
not, the LDS Church fully tolerates and accepts homosexuals. They simply do not,
and will not, APPROVE of homosexuality. The Church likewise wants government to
accept and tolerate homosexuality, but does not want the government to stamp its
official approval on it. Acceptance and tolerance are not the same as condoning
or approving. Any LDS church members who show a lack of tolerance or acceptance
of homosexuals are behaving in opposition to their own church's doctrines. @Pagan, You are merely proving that calling a crime a 'hate
crime' makes no difference. Perpetrators of acts of violence should be severely
punished regardless of what they were feeling at the time.
@DanO 11:01 - I am good friends with three LDS married couples who are
bi-racial. Currently, one couple lives in Logan, one lives in Orem and one lives
near the U of U campus. (yes, they're all college students, one the wife is
black, the other two the husband is) I've asked all three at
different times if they have ever been shunned or ignored in their respective
wards because of their mixed race relationship. Only the couple in Logan, where
the wife is black, say its been an issue and its been minimal at that.I really believe it depends on the ward and neighborhood. I would love to say
all LDS people would embrace bi-racial couples, but sadly we're not there yet.
By the way, I may be LDS but I can't stand Glenn Beck. @windsor 11:00You said - "There CAN BE no fear if no one
knows of your alternate lifestyle."Sorry, but this is not a
very good attitude. I have a gay co-worker who brings his partner to work
related parties. Should we tell him to keep his partner at home? No
one should live in fear, period.
---- There is that watered-down enough for you?There was a horrible
crime committed against this man. It's not to be condoned and those who did this
should be caught and punished.There is no such thing as a hate crime
purported on homosexuals. A crime is a crime is a crime. The motivation behind
the crime is always the same - to inflict harm on another person. Homosexuality is nothing special or sacred. It's a chosen behavior that some
people in society have decided to engage in. Those who bring the LDS
church into this debate are shallow, ignorant and unwittingly bigoted. Those who complain about posts not getting through the sensitive censors at
the Dnews all I can say is welcome to the party!
@ RAB 10:31You wrote: "The Prop 8 fight was a fight against
government APPROVAL of (not just acceptance of) homosexual intimate behavior.
Anyone attempting to make more of it that that, is a hypocrite"Isn't that bad enough for you?What business have the LDS,
Catholic,Evangelical churches and Muslims to influence legislation because of
their religious values? Isn't that a conflict with their political
neutrality?All LDS, Catholic, Evangelical, Muslims
"people", have the right to vote "their" minds. What happened in California as in Hawaii is that churches "as
organizations" promoted a political bias.About gays being
"anti-Mormons". Gays don't hate Mormons they hate the sin of
bigotry.Who really hate Mormons are some self-proclaimed Christians
who see Joseph Smith as a false prophet and charlatan dedicated to distort the
teachings of Christ.If you check the history of the church, no gay
person was ever accused of participating in a mob against the saints. GLBT people are usually reacting to negative attacks against them. Curiously,
then the attackers claim to be the victims. Violence and bigotry
from and against LDS or GLBT or anybody else are equally wrong.
"There CAN BE no fear if no one knows of your alternate lifestyle"I have no "alternate lifestyle". I have one lifestyle. My
lifestyle. And I would venture it is pretty similar to the "lifestyle"
of 99% of the rest of my peers. Go to school, go to work, do homework, enjoy
some sort of relaxation and recreation, try to stretch a food budget in a down
economy, etc. The only difference is that I aspire to sharing and spending my
life with someone that some in society don't approve of. Being gay and being
straight are not "lifestyles" they are part of a person's divine
"NOPE. My answer was simple. There CAN BE no fear if no one knows of your
alternate lifestyle"WOW! What a happy way to go thru life!
It's not enough that gays cannot have equal marriage rights, but according to
your plan they shouldn't even show themselves together in public? Yeah, that'll
do wonders for depression and suicide rates! How would you like it if you had
to live hiding your love for your spouse for fear of being beaten, ridiculed or
even killed? Doesn't seem a verry happy life does it? I'll say it
again... since NEITHER side, science or religion, can prove their beliefs, why
judge people based on what you cannot prove?
@castlepath"I find it interesting some of the people in here
are so tolerant of religion when it includes acceptance of gays but so critical
and ready to shut down religion, Mormonism in particular, at all turns.
"I find it interesting that you immediately follow this up with
an attack on atheists (I'll avoid arguing that since this might be my last
comment, so I'll just note that death tolls are higher now because the world
population is higher, so eliminating 10% of a population of a nation has a much
higher body count now than it would if done in the 1500s while being equivalent
in terms of proportion of population lost).@omahahusker"This shouldn't be called a hate crime."A hate crime not
merely seeks to harm an individual but also seeks to strike fear into a
particular community. Similarly, if some thugs beat up mormon missionaries and
made threatening remarks about "their kind being here"... that would
be a hate crime.@windsor"There CAN BE no fear if no one
knows of your alternate lifestyle"There is fear with that
approach, fear of being open about who you are is what you are prescribing.
I don't care who ya are or what ya say. The history and future of the human
race has wholey and entirely depended upon heterosexual relationships. Any
thing else widely practiced would have been and will be a detriment to society.
Can you argue?Thank a MAN and a WOMAN for your life and existence.
Atl134I did not say self-professed Christians", I said practicing
Christians. There is a difference.
Basic Criminology/Crime Triangle theory: Crime occurs where the
perpetrators perceive a weak victim/easy target; at a location where there are
no natural guardians or bystanders to interrupt the crime; and where the
criminals perceive the opportunity risks are low (i.e. nobody cares about gays
anyway, so why not...).If there were two separate incidents of
violence, then this wasn't basic criminal opportunity. It was planned.
@ ignoranceisbliss:You give no specifics for your hateful rhetoric
toward the LDS church. I do not doubt that you had experiences you found
painful. People are capable of some pretty ugly behavior, but there are two
sides to every story and suspect that is the same with yours.It is
easy to blame a whole segment of society for the actions of individuals, but
your blanket accusations of the Mormons doesn't ring true.As for you
Mormons who blindly ignore and glibly rebuff your mon-mormon neighbors, take
these comments as a wakeup call. If by their fruits they shall be known, some of
us need pruning and purging.
I am a proud member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and as
such I get tired of being put in the same catagory as those individuals who take
it upon themselves to perform these terrible acts of vilonce towards another
human being. I don't know of or heard of any doctrine or teaching by the LDS
church or its leaders that would condone or approve of this type of behavior.
Yes there might be individuals in this church that feel haterid towards another
group, race, gender, or sexual oreintation, and some of them might even act upon
those feelings, but that does not mean that members of the LDS religion Or any
other religion should be put in the same catigory as those few individuals who
act upon their hatred. We are all Gods children and he expect all of us to treat
eachother with respect, diginty, and kindness. I think one of the best ways to
stop all this hatered is to stop labeling ourselves. It does not matter if we
are black, white, purple, heterolsexal, gay, chinnese, american, mexican, or
anything eles. We are all human and should treat eachother that way.
When you relegate a class of people as second class citizens, you devalue them
and people think less of them as humans. Glenn Beck even came out and said it on
air once regarding DADT. He said if we allowed gays and lesbians to serve openly
it would "humanize them".. his words. When people think of others as
less than human, it allows them to justify this violence. Instead of jumping so
quick to a defensive position, step back and see how your actions might help
promote this. I grow tired of people who don't know me telling me a trait that
is part of me is merely a behavior and a sinful one. You don't know me, you
haven't walked in my shoes, how do you know? Because someone told you tho think
that way. I grew up in a very LDS ward in West Valley that happened to have a
mixed-race couple living in it. No one except those of us in the immediate
vicinity (maybe four homes) would even associate with them. Please, it's time to
make a change.
@ alt134 8:57 a.m. Sept. 2, 2011-- "So your answer is for gay
people to live their lives in fear?"NOPE. My answer was simple.
There CAN BE no fear if no one knows of your alternate lifestyle
Brave Sir Robin:When you lie with dogs (anti-gay groups) you get up
with fleas.Fair, maybe not but life isn't fair."I
find it interesting some of the people in here are so tolerant of religion when
it includes acceptance of gays but so critical and ready to shut down religion,
Mormonism in particular, at all turns." Criticism is not the
same as 'shutting down' religion. You have freedom to spend your Sunday anyway
you like however that doesn't you are free from criticism.
That's right Mr. Wilbur, attack the Mormons for this incident. Your
rhetoric against the "prdominant religion" is not different than the
rhetoric you condemn. As a Mormon, I find it absolutely repulsive that anyone of
any persuasion should be attacked as this man was, but the LDS church was not in
any way connected with it. Just because the LDS position on same gender
attraction differs with yours, would you also be the first in line to
"curb" one of them if given the chance? I wonder.
'We don't need a hate crime bill...' - timcharper | 10:26 a.m. Sept. 2, 2011 Maybe you don't. But LGBT people do. Report:
Gay bias killings highest since 1999 MSN 06/16/09 A 30% increase
in gay hate crimes...NATIONALLY. This is not local or state wide. This is across
our country. Evidence, again: *Calif. Teen faces trail
in gay classmate killing - By Greg Risling AP - Published by DSNews-
07/05/11 LOS ANGELES A Southern California teen driven by white
supremacist beliefs executed a gay classmate at a junior high school with two
gunshots to the back of his head Two gunshots to the back of the
head. Result to date? *Mistrail declared in CA gay
student killing By Thomas Watkins AP Published By DSNews 09/01/11 LOS ANGELES A judge on Thursday declared a mistrial in the case of
California teen who shot a gay classmate in the back of the head
Re: MsW. "Jesus Christ spoke volumes about homosexuality from the beginning
when he created Adam and Eve , not Adam and Steve."This is
EXACTLY the kind of attitude that leads to violence like this... and EXACTLY why
religion does deserve a significant part of the blame for this. People who
think this way raise their kids with the same narrow-minded, naive beliefs. Why
not teach both sides? Maybe we were created, maybe we evolved - either way it
cannot be proven! Question MsW- So are hundreds of animal species that exhibit
homosexual behavior also making a blatant choice to sin? Or are they born that
way? It seems pretty good evidence to me of genetics at work. You cannot prove
one bit that God created us, so once again, to come on here so blatantly
pretending you know everything about how life began is downright arrogant and
insulting. I hope this guy recovers as soon as possible and these
cowards who did this (6 against 1? Yeah, cowards) are quickly caught and put in
Reading some of these posts, you would think the man was beaten by a couple of
Mormon missionaries. I must have missed the press release from the LDS Church
condoning the attack.Needless to say, these shameful attempts to
spin an abhorrent and tragic criminal act into a diatribe against the LDS Church
are laughable. The LDS Church condemns such cruelty and violence with MORE
fervency than they discourage homosexual intimate behavior. If anyone tried to
make a law condoning such violence against gays, rest assured, the LDS Church
would be on the front lines fighting against it.It is in fact,
divisive for the Deseret News to even label this article Gay Community Angered
by Attack as if the rest of us are somehow okay with it. There is not a decent
human being on this planet who would not be angered by that attack. The Prop 8 fight was a fight against government APPROVAL of (not just
acceptance of) homosexual intimate behavior. Anyone attempting to make more of
it that that, is a hypocrite. They are exposing their own pitiful bigotry
against Mormons while at the same time condemning and accusing them of bigotry.
We don't need a hate crime bill, what those folks did to this fellow is against
the law, irregardless of their motives. Dane, I'll be making a donation.
Hopefully you get enough help with your medical bills. I'm so sorry man.And everyone who says this is a sign that America is intolerant, don't
give the idiots who did this pleasure of being thought of as American. This is
as un-American as it gets. This is the sort of stuff that we have no place for
in our country.
@BebyebeI wasn't aware that Prop 8 said it was OK to assault and
curbstomp gay people.Advocating against gay marriage is not the same
as advocating violence against gay people. Gay rights advocates always want to
make that connection, but it is simply not there. Open your mind, don't be
bigoted against religious people.
This shouldn't be called a hate crime. Treat it as it is - Assault and Battery.
It was done by a bunch of Rednecks or Street Crime Bullies and Thugs. With the
vast amount of street video cameras, the perpetrators need to be caught and
given swift justice. Hope the victim recovers quickly, Shame on the bullies. By
the way the LDS church had nothing to do with this, it could have happened in
any city in the USA.
The article states that this crime was committed by a group of straight-edge
guys. I know two straight edgers and they are both anti-mormon. If you think
these two groups are related in any way, you have a serious misunderstanding of
one or the other.I don't care what the victims sexual orientation
is: anyone who curb-checks another human being forfeits their right to be a part
of society, in my opinion. They should be locked up until they're too old to
The LDS church is not guiltier than other religions in promoting a negative
image of homosexuality. This horrible and sad case is not unique to Utah, on the
contrary, it is repeated across the United States and many parts of the
world.Do this statement excuses the LDS church? No, it does not.Comments like the ones by Quayle, Windsor, Voice of Reason, not only
tend to mitigate the fault of the attacker, but shift blame to the victim. They
remind me of Saul of Tarsus, who participated in the stoning of Stephen
believing he was doing God's work. Fortunately for him Christ had mercy and he
became Saint Paul.If you believe homosexuality is a sin. By all
means, do not practice it. But don't judge and condemn others. If we
see unjust harm of any kind inflicted upon other. As Christians or ethical
beings, we have the obligation to intervene and prevent that violent act.I wonder, how the love of two people of the same sex causes any harm to
@atl134I find it interesting some of the people in here are so
tolerant of religion when it includes acceptance of gays but so critical and
ready to shut down religion, Mormonism in particular, at all turns. When you remove and persecute religion, the true bloodbaths of history begin.
The crusades, inquisition and witch hunts, are no where in scale when compared
to the crimes of the Godless; Stalin, Polpot, Hitler, Mao.
All crime is hate based. If you get hit in head with a bat because
of your skin color that is hate based.If you get hit in the head
with a bat because you have money, that is hate based.If you get hit
in the head with a bat because you have a different point of view, that is hate
based.Assault and battery is hate based. Love does not
generate crime. Hate does. It would be nice if folks would stop the hate, but
that is a one person by one person issue.Laws can't stop hate no
more than they can stop love. We don't need more laws, we need
"If you're going off of Jesus' new higher law, what did Jesus EVER say
about homosexuality? Nothing. Nada."Jesus Christ spoke volumes
about homosexuality from the beginning when he created Adam and Eve , not Adam
Love the sinner, despise sin.
"Why is everybody bashing Mormons over this incident? It was a bunch of
straight-edgers who assaulted this man, not a bunch of Mormons."Because the Mormon church has a well documented, public, organized,
well-funded dislike of and discrimination against gays (Prop 8).
@isrred: I believe you are mislead to think Jesus said nothing about
homosexuality (please keep in mind that the word homosexual was first used in
1880's.)Matt 19:3-9 Jesus commands man to leave his father and
mother and cleave unto a wife.Titus 2:4-12 Jesus (through Paul)
commands women to love their husbands and children.1 Corinthians
7:2-5 Jesus (through Paul) commands man to have a wife and woman to have a
husband.Ephesians 5:28 Jesus (through Paul) commands men to love
their wives.Also, if you categorize homosexuality into the
scriptural word "fornication", there are many places in the New
Testament where Jesus commands us not to fornicate.
@isrred, you can of course make whatever claims you want, but doing so won't
make your misunderstandings doctrine. Jesus' mission was not to spell out every
jot and tittle of the law but to help people understand what was important:
loving God (including following His commandments) and loving others. Nowhere
did Christ justify or authorize homosexuality, and subsequent New Testament
authors continued to condemn it. But Christ preached very clearly against
violence and ill will toward others.
anka | 7:52 a.m. Sept. 2, 2011 Provo, UTYou can see in these
comments the latent hostility and hatred of gays by religious people. Denying
there is a connection is not only naive, but disingenuous.No, you
are incorrect. Such a statement borders on arrogant. And is most certainly
disingenuous. What I do see, however, is a continuation of an ongoing prejudice
against 'the major religion in the state' by those crying out for tolerance and
respect. Please identify ANY comment by ANY authority of the LDS church that
promotes anything but tolerance and acceptance of the LGBT community. Perhaps
part of the problem, anka, is that you are predisposed to seeing 'latent
hostility and hatred of gays' around every corner. Just because I may be
religious, and am not gay, does not mean I 'hate' gays. I don't drink, either,
but I don't hate people who do.
@VANKA.....what I see is hate and intolerance on the part of gays for religious
people.....ie Garff, Kiss-ins and the comments of gays in this thread...
@4601"This horrible act has nothing to do with religion, but rather
lack thereof."New Hampshire has the lowest crime rates in
America while having the highest rates of people being atheist. For you to imply
that atheism causes violence is bigoted.
@lost in DC"Where do you get the idea these acts were perpetrated by
practicing Christians? Its impossible."Now we don't know what
the religious status of these four are largely because we don't even know who
they are yet so I won't make assumptions, but to say it's impossible is just
wrong. That's a No True Scotsman logical fallacy.
This is a horrible crime. I find it disgusting and hope the people who did this
are identified and punished. isrred said that Jesus doesn't mention homosexually
in the Bible. He does talk about sexual sin: Matthew 15:18-19:
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from
the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed
evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness,
DeseretNews: what is wrong with the following comments? There are people on this
board loosely connecting the LDS Church with the perpetrators of this crime. I
am only trying to point out that fallacy of those comments.It really
irritates me when we take the time out of busy schedules to comment on the DN
articles, and because of inconsistent comment filtering it is entirely
unpredictable what goes through and what doesn't. With that, I am DONE
commenting on the DN if comment filtering is not more consistent! YOUR loss, NOT
mine!!!!!!-----------------Where is the evidence that
the perpetrators of this horrible crime are LDS or are influenced by LDS
teachings? They could be anti-Mormons for all we know.In
other words: we don't know. Stop stereo-typing the perpetrators. They are losers
and deserve to be locked up for a long time, regardless of what religion they
have (or don't have).
@windsor"It seemed that there was so much less of this type of
violence back in a time when those of a different persuasion didn't insist on
others knowing of that persuasion.That seems like a sensible answer:
Don't broadcast and insist that others know of and/or accept your alternate
lifestyle. "So your answer is for gay people to live their
lives in fear? that's not much of a solution...
Jeffrey Wilbur | 6:17 p.m. Sept. 1, 2011 This horrible act has nothing to
do with religion, but rather lack thereof. Some people take this incident as an
excuse to rail on the LDS Church, another form of hate crime.
Straight community angered by gays attacking the institution of marriage and the
family. They call it a hate crime.
First and foremost, what happened to this young man and the others cited in the
story is reprehensible and needs to stop. The neanderthals (apologies to the TV
commercial cave men) who did this need to be locked up for a loooong time.butJeffrey WilburIt's the very reason the very first
step in propaganda is to paint your enemy as being as evil as possible, to
reduce them to a subhuman categorization. You mean the way the dems and MSM
talks about the tea party?Lagamorph,Where do you get the idea
these acts were perpetrated by practicing Christians? Its impossible.Semper Fidelis,There are many who need no excuse to take pot-shots at
the LDS church.TheJournalistI would suspect the story was not
reported previously because the DN knew the response would be major Mormon
bashing. There are those who will continue to bash the church no matter what.
@ utahboni: You need to go back and re-read my post - we are on the same
side.@ ClarkHippo: That is one of the benefits of becoming ever
more civilized - these types of things become less and less acceptable. Every
time an attack like this occurs and is publicized, the acceptability of such
attacks is reduced. The brutality strikes a cord of shame in many of us and
causes us to vow to fight against it.
r.e. isrred | 7:39 p.m. Sept. 1, 2011: I wonder how you can assume that because
I read and believe the Bible is inspired, that I "DO believe in such
violence." How do you know what I get out of the Bible when I prayerfully
read it? Because of errors in transcription and translation, what we have in the
Bible is not a perfect nor complete record so we must "pick and
choose" carefully and prayerfully. Some Biblical messages are clearer than
others (i.e. Gods condemnation of sexual perversion). When it comes to ancient
scripture, we have just a few pieces of a much larger puzzle and those pieces
must be carefully and prayerfully examined. There is much to be learned from the
Bible, but to assume that I hate gays because I believe the Bible is inspired is
to assume that you know what I know better than I know what I know.
Why is everybody bashing Mormons over this incident? It was a bunch of
straight-edgers who assaulted this man, not a bunch of Mormons.
You can see in these comments the latent hostility and hatred of gays by
religious people. Denying there is a connection is not only naive, but
"Advocates of the gay and lesbian community in Salt Lake City say the
violence against gay people has to stop."The title should be
changed to "Most people in and around the Salt Lake City community say
violence against gay people has to stop." It is a shame that this incident
isn't more published and condemned.
Kdee, seriously, can you site even one case of someone being beaten up for being
heterosexual? The kind of hate you are talking about always comes from
somewhere. It doesn't spring up suddenly like weeds in the sidewalk. The
holocaust was caused by Hitler ranting against Jews. Hitler was ranting because
he had an agenda. The evangelical community constantly demonizes
and rants against gay people. Like Hitler, they obviously have an agenda. This
kind of hate ranting generates fear and anger. Fear and anger generate
violence. Everyone in a position of power knows this. Machiavelli wrote about
this 550 years ago. I have quite a few gay friends and I have never
heard even one rant against heterosexuals the way I've heard deeply religious
Christians rant against gays nearly every single day. Even naming the Anti-Gay
Marriage Act the Defense of Marriage Act puts the faithful on notice that they
need to go on the defense. Proclaiming a need for defense implies the unstated
concept of an enemy storming the gate. If Christians and Mormans
are offended by this simple statement of truth, clean up your house.
"Bible-believing Christians can, without picking and choosing, condemn both
homosexual behavior and violence against homosexuals."No, they
can't. If you're going off of Jesus' new higher law, what did Jesus EVER say
about homosexuality? Nothing. Nada. The only biblical basis for anti-homosexual
beliefs are NOT found in Jesus' teachings. So like I said, you can't use the
Bible as a source against homosexuality while also ignoring the calls for
violence in those same verses.
@isrred | 7:39 p.m. Sept. 1, 2011You presume to tell people what
they believe? Typical left intolerance.
The gay community is outraged? The ENTIRE community should be outraged. This
senseless and disgusting act is nothing short of terrorism. The victim could be
Mormon, Jewish, Catholic, Irish, or Muslim. Hate crimes apply to more than just
gay individuals. Hate is hate. Tolerance does not and should not equal
acceptance, but treating people with respect despite our differences is
From the article,"That education starts with young people who
say phrases like, "That's so gay," she said. "People need to be
called out when they're displaying that type of behavior.""While I agree that we should treat each other with respect, I found "that
type of behavior" a bit odd. In my eyes, children should be taught to
respect other views, including those that disagree- but that respecting other
views does not equate the abandonment of ones own. I believe that homosexuality
is a behavior, an immoral one, and has devastating affects on the individual and
the family.That is my belief, obviously not shared by everyone. But
what if I wanted to talk about sex in school? Would that solve problems? Would
that please the masses?1- My health teachers, against what liberals
claim, taught that certain things were 'okay', only 'natural', that my religious
views were inaccurate.2- Even with such education programs, people
make worse decisions today than every before relating to sex.The
reasons we implemented such programs are worse of now than before. WE don't need
to teach anything. Parents are the proper teachers. Without promoting family, no
progress can be made.
Speaking about religion and violence. True religion, in any form, despises
violence to other innocent human beings. While on the other hand, teach that
some some human behavior is unacceptable in their ranks. Never the less,
violence is not tolerated. Remember the words of Christ, "In as much as ye
do it unto the least of these my brethren, ye do it unto me." I hope these
criminals can be brought to justice.
I've known a young man in the 80's that would talk as if he would do this type
of thing to someone. He was also the bishop's son. Very missguided about various
topics.The people that do this are NOT following thier religion -
that's the problem. I better see that this is follwed up on or the DA and other
ifficials are going to be getting an angry phone call. I learned long ago that
it actually does wonders to call local officials. For some reason in Utah it's
Thanks for your comments, Silly Rabbit. I just wanted to add one or two other
thoughts: I don't support gay marriages. I don't support gay
lifestyles. I believe to live that way is morally wrong. I don't hate an
individual because they're gay and I don't think I'm any better than them
because I'm not gay. We all have our challenges in life. Some folks were born
with predispositions towards things that aren't "normal". Some folks
have addictive personalities. They're predisposed that way. At the end of the
day, it shouldn't be what we submit to that defines us, it should be what we're
able to overcome. As a member of the predominate religion in Utah, it saddens me
when I get accused of hate for actions I believe to be morally wrong. In truth,
when someone bashes me over perceived bigotry because I don't support a certain
way or lifestyle, they show their bigotry towards me. The accuser becomes the
perpetrator in this regard. Respect is two way. If you want my respect for your
right to live a certain way, respect my right to not agree with it. Both can be
done without malice or hate.
The men that beat him were certainly not "religious" in any way.
Neither was the one that was beaten.
article: "I don't have an answer. None of us do."In all
seriousness,and with no flippancy, THERE IS an answer.It seemed that
there was so much less of this type of violence back in a time when those of a
different persuasion didn't insist on others knowing of that persuasion.That seems like a sensible answer: Don't broadcast and insist that
others know of and/or accept your alternate lifestyle. I honestly
can see no downside to keeping your private life and private business just that:
private.What they don't know--they can't judge, disagree with,
condemn, or stupidly think they are going to change with violence.
It seems to me that so-called "curbing" ought to be regarded as
attempted murder. Very sorry this person was attacked.
@ignoranceisbliss 7:43Your comment is one reason why I'm so glad I
grew up in the Rose Park/Riverside area of Salt Lake City. I
attended Jackson Elementary, Northwest Middle School and West High School where
I would say my close friends were somewhere between 50/50 to 40/60 LDS to
non-LDS. To me it is very frustrating when I hear examples such as
your own, because my siblings and I have always attempted to be as friendly and
open to all our neighbors and co-workers, regardless of their faith. Even in my
own family, my siblings, nieces and nephews who no longer attend church are
still just as welcome to family activities as everyone else.I
suppose its like the philosophy behind customer service. If someone has a good
experience at a restaurant, they might tell one person. If they have a bad
experience, they will tell at least 10 people.@Kdee 9:49 You said - "This beating wasn't about Dane Hall. This beating was about
being gay. The crime was intended to send a message to all other gay
men."Based on comments here, it sounds like that message is
This story is appalling on every level, and we as Utahan's should be ashamed
that this happened on our turf. Second, why is all the major news
outlets in the SLC region only reporting this now. This story happened almost a
week ago, and it was only after people in the gay community demanded the story
be published was it done so.
I hope a thorough investigation is performed and that the guitly are apprehended
and tried in Court. Once the perpetrators are apprehended, it will be
interesting to see who they are and what they are about. It is a sad
day for all of us when anyone is beat up or assualted like this for whatever the
reason, but there are several posters who have made an attempt to blame this
incident on the LDS. It is also sad that this tragedy is being used as fodder
for LDS and religion bashing. I am well aware of the LDS teachings and I have
never heard any offical teaching condone or justify violence outside of self
defense. As the perpetrators have not been identified, we have no
facts regarding their religious background or lack there of, and the
perpetrators alone are responsible for their crimes. The LDS did not tell them
to do this, and the decision to assault this man was made soley by the
perpetrators. So I pose this question, if the perpetrators are
determined to be agnostic, atheists or any religion other than active LDS in
good standing, will the LDS bashers own their hasty judgments?
After Matthew Shepard was murdered in Wyoming, I remember being angry when
members of the Westboro Baptist Church protested at his funeral. I remember
asking a number of family and friends, "I can't believe anyone who claims
to be a Christian would do something so heartless and cruel."Watching the news coverage, as well as thinking more about it in my mind, I
came to two conclusions.1. When you act violently against someone
because they belong to a specific group of people, it does absolutely nothing
except infuriate that specific group. Google the name "Emmett
Till" and tell me his murder did nothing to ignite the civil rights
movement of the 50's and 60's. Google "Bull Connor" and tell me his
actions did not generate sympathy towards blacks in the south.2. No
matter how religious or irreligious the state; no matter how many Republicans or
Democrats live in a certain city; no matter how many people do or don't drive
hybrid cars in a particular town, there will always be those who insist and
behaving like idiots, going out of their way to hurt and bully others. Yes it's sad but it's still true.
@isrred, your take on Christian theology ignores the whole New Testament.Consider the incident of the woman taken in adultery. The Pharisees,
citing scriptures like those you refer to, called for her to be stoned. Jesus
made it clear that her actions were sinful but tactfully defended her life.When you read the whole Bible, you discover that Jesus brought a higher
law than Old Testament Jews lived. He taught, "Think not that I am come to
destroy the law, ... but to fulfil.... Ye have heard that it hath been said,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love
your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray
for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you...." "A new
commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that
ye also love one another."Christ's higher law still recognizes
and condemns sin. But the layman's obligation to his neighbor is to show
compassion, not mete out punishment. Bible-believing Christians can, without
picking and choosing, condemn both homosexual behavior and violence against
This is a sad crime that was perpetrated on this young man gay or not, we should
keep in mind that he is human first and foremost. The sub-humans that did this
to him should be locked up for a long time, I think we can all agree on that, if
you dont then there is something wrong with you.But the religion
bashing really needs to stop. As a member of the predominate religion in the
state I have never been taught in church to hate someone for what they are race,
creed, color, sexual preference, or what sports team and political affiliation
they might root for. But what is taught in the home that is
prejudice has nothing to do with my religion. Sadly there are people out there
that for some reason have no tolerance for anything different and that has
nothing to do with religion, even though they may have interpreted it that
way.Hope this young man heals up, and these criminals are put away.
I hope this makes sense its late....
JNA, a not all crimes are the same and motive is definitely a part of the
determination of motive. Hence we have a difference between voluntary
manslaughter and murder. Enhancements are also standard practice.. assault,
aggravated assault, assault with a deadly weapon. A hate crime designation is
just that: a crime that was committed based on the person's identity. To be
clear, such a designation can be made for more than sexual orientation. Religion
is also a protected class.
@ JNA: No, not all crimes are the result of hate and/or fear. Some crimes are
committed because someone is drunk, or wants to get high, or is mad at a
particular person.The Holocaust was about hate.The Mormons
being driven out of Missouri was about hate.The person that stole
your car, has no idea who you are and really doesn't care - there is no hate or
fear involved.The guy that murdered his ex-girlfriend did so in a
fit of passion, not because he hates all women simply because they are women.Hate crimes don't just apply to gays - they apply to the aged, the
handicapped, the religious, and, should a heterosexual be beaten for no reason
other than being heterosexual, they would apply in that situation also.There are many different levels of crime. Each different level of crime has a
different level of punishment. A hate crime designation raises a crime to a
higher level, allowing for a stricter sentence.This beating wasn't
about Dane Hall. This beating was about being gay. The crime was intended to
send a message to all other gay men. Hate crimes are not regular
There is absolutely no room in our society for this kind of violence.
Absolutely sickening! The guilty parties should be put away for a long time.
"Why are supposedly "religious" people taught by that religion
that anyone who feels differently than they do cannot be tolerated? What ever
happened to tolerance?"You assume the perpetrators are
religious. I have never been taught to tolerate actions like this.
I will never condone it. If I were anywhere near this disgusting action, I
would have stepped in to help. Do not lump me, as a religious man,
with intolerance or behaviors such as these, that is offensive.
As a high school teacher, I have heard some horrific comments aimed at gays.
One year as our class was discussing prejudice, one of my students prefaced his
comment with this statement: "I come from a religious home. We read our
scriptures every night." He then proceeded to issue an appalling gay
slander. I was shocked, and thankfully, I believe most of the class was as
well.Nonetheless, I see many who use their religion to justify
prejudice and discrimination. Instead of being offended, we need to take steps
to rectify that misunderstanding. Does the Church encourage violence,
prejudice, and discrimination? Of course not, but some use the Bible and the
Church to justify prejudice and violence.
Mr Wilber, your comments are so disgusting. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
Days Saints does not teach what you espouse they do. Your comments are extremely
insulting and filled with lies that it borders on hate speech. Your agenda comes
through loud and clear..we get it, we get it, you don't like the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter Day Saints......nextA crime is a crime, they are
all motivated by hate and fear. The homosexual community wants to be treated as
equal yet they want crimes that are just for them. This was a horrible crime, a
vicious crime but it should not be put into some special crime under the heading
of hate. I wish all of the so called "hate crimes" would just go the
way of the dodo. These men or women or both who committed this horrific crime
should be sent away for a long long time.
Well, I was going to bash Beenlistening for blaming this kind of hate on
religion, but then I thought about how much I was shunned, ridiculed, and hated
for being a non-mormon growing up in a mormon neighborhood in Sandy. When my
parents moved away and I did not go with them, my Mom could not believe I could
stay in a place that had caused me so much pain. She vowed she would never come
back here ever again and she did not. I guess the point I am trying to make is
that there are people in this state that take things too far and it is because
of the dominant religion. I still try not to judge people by their religion, but
I know firsthand the prejudice that the mormon religion is capable of depositing
amongst their flock and it is hateful, wrong, and very scary. I was a little kid
and did not understand why I was hated so much or why and I struggled with it
all through childhood. There are radicals in all religions including the mormon
Really DNEWS? why was this comment denied? It violates NONE of your terms: not
obscene, no name calling, no yelling,no links or commercial promotion, and is
not provocative or trolling. Follow your own guidlines and don't censor
something that is pertinent to the conversation and follows all your rules---------"I don't know of any of the mainline religions in the Salt
Lake area which teach that this kind of treatment of another human is
acceptable."Really? People repeatedly use the Bible as
"Evidence" that homosexuality is against God's "plan", but
the very passages in the Bible that they cite demand stoning and putting to
death gays, adulterers, disobedient children, etc.If you believe in
the Bible, then you DO believe in such violence. If you pick and choose which
parts you believe and which you don't, then you have no legs to stand on in
trying to use it as an authoritative moral source on any issue.
What does this have to do with the LDS church?! I am sorry this happened but
how did it turn into a discussion on mormon bashing?
As an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I read
this and was appalled at this. We are all children of God who loves us and wants
us to treat each other kindly.I am not sure why people are draagging
the LDS church into this, because this act was not perpetrated by the LDS
church, nor would it ever be supported by us. The very few who might support
this violence are not representative of the Church or its doctrines. Here's to hoping for a quick recovery and justice for the perpetrators.
Jeffrey Wilbur writes: "...if that same religion also teaches that certain
types of people are subhuman or inferior in some way. For decades, most
religions - including the predominant culture in this state - have silently and
subtly taught that homosexuality is everything from a disease, to a
psychological disorder, to Satanic, to disgusting and subhuman. In one breath
violence is condemned; in the next, "different" people are."Here is what the Mormon church teaches, so we're all clear:1. The purpose of our life is to experience a very broad range of
circumstances, urges, emotions, events, thoughts, and desires so that we can
learn to distinguish between the bitter and the sweet.2. Sin is
essentially doing those things that don't lead to the greatest personal growth
as a person. Therefore, more than anything, sin is delay.3. But
every single person is going to willfully sin. There isn't one person, not even
an Apostle (as they will well tell you) that hasn't sinned.4. And
sin can be erased by the Lord in an instance, so it isn't an indelible trait.I don't see anything in the above that separates out or denigrates gays
or any person that sins.
flyfisher & Belching Cow--There is often a huge gulf between what is
taught and the lesson received. Christian denominations,and indeed all major
faiths, teach love as a primary virtue ("Faith, hope, love..."). But
it is often a mixed message. Christianity is full of violent imagery (literal
and metaphorical) in the Old and New Testaments and advancement of faith is
often couched in violent terms (Revelations, anyone?). Leviticus has some harsh
punishments for breaking the rules generally and some harsh words about
homosexuality in particular. "Abomination" is the standard term linked
Biblically to gays and the destruction of Sodom is often cited by the haters.
Churches are leading the political movement against recognizing gay marriage
rights. As much as the great majority of religious folks strive to live lives
of peace and love, given the foregoing, I'm not the least bit surprised that
some in the fold see it as their calling to destroy that which offends their
religious views. It's a perversion of the teachings, but scriptures can be
misinterpreted and religious zeal hijacked to violent ends, or do you not
remember 9/11? I don't think Beenlistening is far off the mark in that
Physically violated a person is a serious crime, their intent is to harm this
person because of his personal trait, everyone knows that a person can not be
changed by beatings. These individuals need to be held accountable for their
actions and behavior and prosecuted, otherwise the State is promoting violence.
Note: Seriously? The Deseret News denied this comment? I guess they don't want
anything remotely critical of the Mormon church to be seen on here. Let's try
again and see if they censor me again.--Human beings are
predisposed to feel uncomfortable around those they perceive to be
"different" or "inferior". For some, especially the hateful
and vindictive, that discomfort transforms into bigotry, slurs and verbal
attacks, and sometimes violence. It's the very reason the very first step in
propaganda is to paint your enemy as being as evil as possible, to reduce them
to a subhuman categorization.As such, it doesn't matter so much if a
religion doesn't "condone violence" if that same religion also teaches
that certain types of people are subhuman or inferior in some way. For decades,
most religions - including the predominant culture in this state - have silently
and subtly taught that homosexuality is everything from a disease, to a
psychological disorder, to Satanic, to disgusting and subhuman. In one breath
violence is condemned; in the next, "different" people are.It's not a huge leap from that to a few fanatical and hateful individuals
using it as justification to attack others.
I would pray that it's not just the gay community thats upset. Resorting to this
kind of treatment of an innocent victim is among the horrible things that humans
are capable of. And for what?
absolutely disgusting that any human being could treat another person this way.
for those of you that think the vitriol you spread against the gay community
causes no harm take a good look at the picture attached to this story and then
think twice how you phrase your opposition to gay rights. You haver a right to
disagree with those of us that support gay rights just be aware of the possible
cost of how you express those views.
Does Utah have a hate crimes law? If not we need one.Perhaps the
feds do and it can be applied. Any group that is singled out for persecution,
needs to also be singled out for special protections.This is why
this why the army applies armor to tanks. The same logic applies here.
It is too bad that we in the United States can not be more tolerant of others
who differ from us in religious, political or lifestyle choices. The
intolerance of others for religious, political or lifestyle choices are rampant
throughout our society. We need to be more respectful of others.
This is a horrible crime -- extremely violent and disturbing. The cowards who
did this should be in jail. I can't even imagine that kind of violence. Hope he
That's terrible. Why can't everyone just love and respect everyone?!