TCU, BYU, Boise State, Air Force, Houston, Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State,
Baylor is good enough to keep the BIG 12 an AQ school. Not the best BCS
conference, but not the worst either. And finally, all those deserving schools
punch their ticket to the BCS. Get on board, or get left out. It is the only
chance most of those schools will ever get.
In Stitches etc. Why are you wasting your time arguing with someone
who has nothing more going on in his/her life than trolling the boards of a
school that is no longer in his/her conference -- someone who is trying vainly
to convince everyone that a school which accepts just about anyone is somehow
superior to a school that is extremely selective?! Selective Private University
vs. easy to get into State School. Give me a break!The fact that
this person has nothing better to do speaks volumes!
Dear JohnI think percentage of students who go on to get ____ post
graduate degree is NOT an opinion but rather a pretty obvious fact. You take the
overall number of undergraduates from each University and then you figure out
the percentage who go on to whichever postgraduate program. The one with the
highest percentage gets ranked #1 and so forth. Simple math is not an opinion.
As others have noted, using the most commonly applied metrics, BYU scores well
and also achieves its overall mission nearly to perfection. However, even as a
loyal (some would say borderline fanatic) BYU grad I still have to acknowledge
that there are real limitations to the Provo experience that I did not
appreciate until I did my graduate work at two "name-brand"
universities. The real-life relevance of the competitive comparisons of BYU to
School X in the comments posted here can be questioned and one needs to be a bit
careful about some of the ammunition used. A case in point is the matter of
Paul Boyer, a BYU grad (and Provo native, no less) who won the Nobel Prize in
Chemistry. One would think that at the very least a chemistry lab somewhere on
campus would bear his name. Unfortunately, Boyer became an outspoken atheist
"activist" who vehemently criticized both the Church and BYU. So, in
making the case for our greatness it's better to leave Boyer out of the
Sheesh, you cougies claim I don't read your posts? I do, and I even understand
the words. On the other hand . . .Card:You hypothesized
"if you and I are both applying to a grad program" yet you trot out
some selective "ranking" to "prove" your conclusion that
you'd get in but not me. Since you don't know and cannot include all the
relevant facts in your hypothesis, your conclusion is known as an
"opinion."stiches:I used the word
"laureate." Mario Capecchi is Utah's Nobel laureate because he won his
Nobel Prize while researching at the U. Boyer is one of UCLA's Nobel laureates.
You and BYU are still 0-fer Nobel.
"BYU is ranked #10 nationally for the number of students who go on to earn
PhDs, #1 nationally for students who go on to dental school, #6 nationally for
students who go on to law school, and #10 nationally for students who go on to
medical school."Hmmm ... looks to me that colincard's statement
has been proven -- by an intelligent Ute no less! Imagine that. What else ya
got, John? This is getting entertaining AND informative. I knew BYU was a great
school, but I never knew just how great!
JohnInSLCFrom a post from a fellow Ute: "BYU is ranked #10
nationally for the number of students who go on to earn PhDs, #1 nationally for
students who go on to dental school, #6 nationally for students who go on to law
school, and #10 nationally for students who go on to medical school."That, dear John, is what makes my statement a "provable fact."
JohnInSLC"Absent from your lists were the number of LDS Church
presidents, when educated on their own nickel, who got their education at BYU.
That's why in knowledgeable LDS circles--outside of Happy Valley--the U is known
as 'The School of the Prophets.'"====Hmmm... Is that how
academic prowess is measured by the world? Does the Academic Ranking of World
Universities have that as part of their criteria?! Weird! I guess that's what
got you that Pac-12 invite.BTW, among the alumni are several General
Authorities, including two Church presidents: Ezra Taft Benson '26, and Thomas
S. Monson '74), six apostles (Neil L. Andersen, D. Todd Christofferson '69,
David A. Bednar '76, Jeffrey R. Holland '65 & '66, Dallin H. Oaks '54, and
Reed Smoot 1876), and two General Relief Society Presidents: Julie B. Beck '73
and Belle Spafford '20.
CarnakWow. You must be part of the Ute debate team. Great rebuttal.
You sure showed him with all his inconvenient facts!
JohninSLCIn Stitches covered that for me: "The University also
graduated Nobel Prize winner Paul D. Boyer".Maybe you should
slow down and read more carefully.
" . . .who would be most likely to get in."Card:Like many cougies, you mistake your narrow opinion with provable fact.
@ Collin Card | 4:47 p.m. Sept. 2, 2011 Provo, Utah You first
need to graduate from high school.Good luck with that.
JohninSLCI repeat:BYU is ranked #10 nationally for the
number of students who go on to earn PhDs, #1 nationally for students who go on
to dental school, #6 nationally for students who go on to law school, and #10
nationally for students who go on to medical school.I guess
postgraduate programs don't subscribe to the Academic Ranking of World
Universities? Don't get me wrong. I am a Utah grad and fan, but I
don't allow that to delude me into thinking that the school south of us is
anything but a great school. The fact is, BYU is a whole lot harder to get into,
most students are bilingual and they have some very prominent post-graduate
programs. When you feel the need to belittle them -- you just come off looking
JohnInSLCNice how Utes have to shop around to find rankings that
suite them -- even when they have to ignore those that don't!I don't
know why you think this is some competition between schools. The article had
nothing to do with that. But I think several folks have answered your question
quite thoroughly. I guess the question is -- if you and I are both
applying to a grad program (you with an Undergrad degree from the U and me with
the same degree from the Y), who would be most likely to get in. ME! (I guess
grad schools don't place as much faith in the Academic Ranking of World
Universities as you do).
katiebugg:I'm sorry, I missed the number of Nobel Prize laureates
from your litany.InStiches:Absent from your lists were
the number of LDS Church presidents, when educated on their own nickel, who got
their education at BYU. That's why in knowledgeable LDS circles--outside of
Happy Valley--the U is known as "The School of the Prophets."
man of few:The US News ranking is not the only one. Its founder said
he knew his formula was right because the same 3 schools always landed on top.
When one of their statisticians changed the formula to be a little more
scientific, and CalTech came out on top, she was let go and the formula went
back to the old way (read: money talks). A more reliable ranking is
the Academic Ranking of World Universities. For 2010 you will find Utah at #47
in the US and #82 in the world. BYU? #112-137 nationally and #300-400 in the
world--right in there with Nevada-Reno, Wayne State and Rhode Island.
@ Where's Stockton ??? | 6:23 p.m. Sept. 1, 2011 Bowling Green, OH Classy.
Hey John there's more:A number of BYU alumni have found success in
professional sports, representing the University in 7 MLB World Series, 5 NBA
Finals, and 25 NFL Super Bowls. In baseball, BYU alumni include
All-Stars Rick Aguilera '83, Wally Joyner '84, and Jack Morris '76. Professional basketball players include three-time NBA Finals champion Danny
Ainge '81, 1952 NBA Rookie of the Year and 4-time NBA All-Star Mel Hutchins '51,
and three-time Olympic medalist Kreimir Ćosić '73.
BYU also claims notable professional football players including Super Bowl MVP
Steve Young '84 & '96, Heisman Trophy winner Ty Detmer '90, and two-time
Super Bowl winner Jim McMahon. In golf, BYU alumni include two major
championship winners: Johnny Miller ('69) at the 1973 U.S. Open and 1976 British
Open and Mike Weir ('92) at the 2003 Masters.Isn't Wikipedia grand?
JohninSLCThere's more:In literature and journalism, BYU
has produced several best-selling authors, including Orson Scott Card '75,
Brandon Sanderson '00 & '05, and Stephenie Meyer '95. Other
media personalities include award-winning ESPN sportscaster and former Miss
America Sharlene Wells Hawkes '86 and former co-host of CBS's The Early Show
Jane Clayson Johnson '90.In entertainment and television, BYU is
represented by Jon Heder '02 (best known for his role as Napoleon Dynamite),
Golden Globe-nominated Aaron Eckhart '94, animator and filmmaker Don Bluth '54,
Jeopardy! all-time champion Ken Jennings '00,and Richard Dutcher, the
"Father of Mormon Cinema."In the music industry BYU is
represented by former American Idol contestant Carmen Rasmusen and Mormon
Tabernacle Choir director Mack Wilberg.
JohninSLCHow about this:Over 21 BYU graduates have
served in the U.S. Senate and U.S. House of Representatives.Cabinet
members of American presidents include former Secretary of Agriculture to
President Dwight D. Eisenhower, Ezra Taft Benson '26 and Rex E. Lee '60, who was
United States Solicitor General under President Ronald Reagan. Mitt Romney,
former Governor of Massachusetts and 2008 Republican Presidential Candidate,
class of 1971.BYU alumni in academia include former Dean of the
Harvard Business School Kim B. Clark and Michael K. Young '73, current President
of The University of Utah. The University also graduated Nobel Prize
winner Paul D. Boyer, as well as Philo Farnsworth (inventor of the electronic
television) and Harvey Fletcher (inventor of the hearing aid).Three
of BYU's twelve presidents were alumni of the University. Additionally, alumni
of BYU who have served as business leaders include Citigroup CFO Gary Crittenden
'76, former Dell CEO Kevin Rollins '84, Deseret Book CEO Sheri L. Dew, and
Matthew K. McCauley, CEO of children's clothing company Gymboree.
I'll raise you Philo T. Farnsworth, Harvey Fletcher, H. Tracy Hall and Joseph
Price. I'll also raise you 10 Rhodes Scholars, four Gates Scholars
in the last six years, and in the last decade, 41 Fulbright scholars and 3 Jack
Kent Cooke scholars.
If Big 12 members have a problem with the Longhorn Network. What makes people
think that BYU and Notre Dame would be welcome in the conference with their own
JohninSLCFor 2010, the U.S. News & World Report ranked BYU as
#71 in the country overall.The Princeton Review has ranked BYU the
best value for college in 2007.BYU is also ranked #19 in the U.S.
News and World Report's "Great Schools, Great Prices" lineup. BYU is ranked #10 nationally for the number of students who go on to
earn PhDs, #1 nationally for students who go on to dental school, #6 nationally
for students who go on to law school, and #10 nationally for students who go on
to medical school.BYU is designated as a research university with
high research activity by the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of
Teaching.In 2009, the university's Marriott School of Management
received a #5 ranking by BusinessWeek for its undergraduate programs,and its MBA
program was ranked by several sources: #22 ranking by BusinessWeek, #16 by
Forbes, and #29 by U.S. News & World Report.
Katiebugg:Good one. But I'll see your Whittingham reference and
raise you LaVell Edwards, with his Masters degree from the U.
JohnInSLCWe can also brag about a current Ute coach...
Where's Stockton:Every time somebody else (this time from the
Midwest) questions the Y's academic credentials you just can't help yourself
with the cold fusion canard, can you? As I mentioned the last time you went
there, at least the U is trying. Thousands of artificial heart recipients would
heartily agree. A recent Nobel Prize for medicine is further evidence of the
effort. About all the Y can crow about is the production of good
game show contestants and unemployed pirate football coaches. And oh yeah,
Napoleon Dynamite. Thanks, the world is a much better place.
If OU and Texas leave, the Big 12 won't retain its AQ status. The MWC almost
earned AQ status based on the contributions of Utah and TCU, but those teams are
gone.WhatsInItForMe: You don't understand the TV issue. For one,
Oklahoma IS starting their own network. The issue of broadcast high school
sports on university stations was squashed by the NCAA.Now the
concern in the Big 12 is that Texas wants to have at least 2 games broadcast
exclusively on The Longhorn Network. If you're Kansas or Iowa State and are
hoping for some ESPN/Fox exposure, you might suddenly find yourself ONLY shown
on the TLN. Want to know how that feels? You may soon. ESPN is willing to
help their partner Texas by moving the BYU-Texas game exclusively to the TLN.Anyone who thinks the Big 12 could be the league of independent TV
networks is foolish. A league needs exposure on the major networks. If Texas
only broadcasts their games, and OU does, and BYU does... nobody is going to see
the games. University networks are a fad destined to fade away. BYU's will
make it, because its really a church station.
I checked on US news College Rankings just now. BYU, if a member of the Big 12,
would be the #2 academic institution, behind Texas.
If Texas' TLN is causing such consternation among the Big XII members, isn't
that league effectively dead?Texas A&M is the first to leave
over this. Oklahoma can't be too far behind.Some might say,
"Well, Oklahoma, start your OWN network."But, maybe they
don't think their "national" following is good enough to do that. OR,
maybe they're waiting to see how Texas' "national following" actually
pans out in the TLN getting picked up outside of Texas, which so far it
hasn't.It could be that adding both Notre Dame and BYU into the Big
XII with THEIR own ubiquitous TV coverage would just add more fuel to the
jealousy fire.I doubt Texas will go to the Pac-12 because that
league won't allow them the advantage TLN offers to Texas, and Texas won't give
it up so easily.The next little while is really going to be
interesting to see where the chips fall.
Kansas and Kansas State must be cringing at what's happening to the Big XII,
because they'll have nowhere to go. Doubt the Big Ten wants them, but might have
to take them to get to 16.If the Big XII loses Oklahoma and Texas
(to the Pac-12), BYU would be better served remaining independent. A depleted
Big XII won't retain its BCS status with a bunch of mid-majors added into it.Besides, it'll be 16-team superconferences that would come out of the
Pac-12 raiding the Big XII, making it the death of that league.The
only chance the Big XII has of surviving is to expand to 12 immediately and
eventually to 14 with BCS adds, like from the Big East, not a bunch of mid-major
If Oklahoma and Texas join the PAC 16, Utah's chances of ever going to the Rose
Bowl will be ZERO. There's no way Utah will ever have the resources
and prestige to out-recruit USC, Oklahoma, and Texas, let alone Oregon,
Stanford, and Oklahoma State. Like Air Force trying to finish ahead
of TCU, BYU, and Utah in the same year, Utah would have to have an outstanding
year just to finish in the top 3 of the PAC 16.
The author of this article is obviously trying to make BYU look like it is a
Ohio State type school, where anybody can get in. BYU is one of the hardest
schools to get in in the western United States. Utah's graduate school? Most of
those graduate students come from BYU. This writer is obviously uneducated
about BYU. The big least (big east) will die before the BIG 12. If the BIG 12
wants to they can steal a lot of those programs.
Juggy"It's about what is produced. How does the institution
make the world a better place through research and expanding human
academia."I will put what BYU brings to the world over what u
bring to the world any day of the week and twice on Sunday. You perception is
not reality as proved by other posts.Hank Pym"What
about variety of programs? Outside of Law, Business, & the M R S degree;
what is byu notorious for?"First, I don't think u really want
to know. The way you framed the question you aren't looking for an answer so
much as you are looking to slam BYU. But, I will tell you...There
are numerous reports over the last three decades about how large hiring firms,
big five accounting firms, CIA, FBI, State Department and many others want BYU
graduates because of their honor, work ethic, maturity, and commitment to
excellence. It would appear that real world entities prefer that over academia.
People who use the argument that BYU's academics are somehow lacking
are actually revealing their religious bigotry.Is BYU accredited by
the highest levels of accreditation or not? If they are the argument is mute.
Combine comments from Whatsinitforme and Cougarforever and we get pretty close
to what might happen.Big 12 has a legit shot at getting Notre Dame,
Pitt and BYU. It needs all three to keep the current conference intact.
Arkansas might also be a possibility if ND commits. The definately need three
teams, not one, to add stability.If they don't get all three - UT,
TT, OU and OSU are off to the PAC16. Lucky for U - if this were last year, TAMU
would be included and U would be excluded.Big 12 will survive by
adding and replacing to get back to 12. The new conference could look like this
- Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, Baylor, Houston, Air Force, Boise State,
Hawaii (in football), and of course BYU.Possibilities to fill the
other three spots would be Missouri (SEC won't take them, Big10 might if they
try to move to 16 but they didn't want them last year), Tulsa, TCU, SMU, SDSU,
UTEP, Southern Mississippi or Colorado State.This conference would
be better than Big East at football and on par with ACC.
Juggy & Hank Pym Well there was that article the other day about
how BYU also produces more undergrads who go on to get Masters and Phds than
even most Ivy Leagues....
The only thing the Huffington Post knows less about than politics is sports.
I am about 90% certain that BYU has received or is about to receive an
invitation to join the Big-12. I am about 80% certain that BYU will accept
the invitation. I am 100% convinced that BYU should accept such an offer
-- this experiment with independence simply has too many potential pitfalls in
the longterm. Unfortunately, I think that Oklahoma and Texas
(together with tag-alongs Oklahoma State and Texas Tech) are destined for a
PAC-16. And it seems likely that Missouri could join either the Big-10 or the
SEC. The Big-12 needs to pad itself quickly so it has at least 8 remaining
schools when this occurs. I wouldn't be surprised if AFA, Boise State, SMU,
Houston and even Tulsa also aren't being seriously considered (Pittsburgh and
Louisville won't join even if asked). A "Big-12" with BYU, Kansas,
Kansas State, Iowa State, Baylor, AFA, Boise State, SMU, Houston and possibly
Colorado State and/or Tulsa clearly would be a step down from the new expanded
super-conferences but, in my opinion, membership in such a conference would be
preferable to the uncertainties of independence.
Don't be at all surprised to see Notre Dame, Pitt, and BYU get concurrent
invites to the Big XII to bring it back to 12 teams after Texas A&M leaves.
Both Notre Dame & BYU could keep their TV contracts (ala TLN), making it
possible for ND to come along.I doubt any one of those schools would
accept a solo invite to a sinking ship. But, they might accept as a group,
knowing it'd solidify the conference's future. Beebe seems to know that, what
with his trapsing around the country to BYU, et al.The Big XII
conference won't have stability until it gets back to 12 by adding schools withs
some cache. Different levels of cache for the teams I mentioned, sure, but
still, enough to save the conference from imploding.The Pac-12, in
moving to a 16-team league, is the only conference that can deplete the Big XII
into oblivion. So, the Big XII's only way to save itself is to keep the Pac-12
at bay is by growing to 12 immediately. 10 members is no longer viable.So, just asking BYU isn't enough, and BYU would be dumb to accept alone.
Stay independent where you are in control of your own destiny as long as ESPN
will stick with you! With ESPN as your partner, it won't take long if you win
to gain respect and be offered a similar BCS deal as Notre Dame.With
all the big teams being sanctioned or player suspensions, BCS now only means Bad
Criminal School and who wants to be the champion of that?
It's ridiculous slander, and I know I shouldn't be drawn into conversations with
mud-slingers, but it is important for the objective reader to realize that BYU's
focus/mission/emphasis and its strength is on a high-quality undergraduate
education. Its resources have been spent on this. Check out
wikipedia's site about BYU and this becomes evident. BYU produces
more dentists than any other school in the US.Also BYU sends more
students into PhD programs than all but 4 other schools in the US. (see the
recent DesNews article)As a physician who did undergrad at BYU and
Med School at Georgetown, I can assure you that BYU undergraduates are
sought-after around the US. I doubt that Hank Pym or Juggy have been
in a graduate school in Utah, or they'd realize that many of the Utes graduate
programs rely heavily on BYU graduates (certainly their med-school has).
re: Juggy & Wiley Old School | 4:08 p.m. Sept. 1, 2011 "It's about what is produced. How does the institution make the world a
better place through research and expanding human academia. BYU just doesn't do
that. The main thing BYU produces is marriages."Exactly!What about variety of programs? Outside of Law, Business, & the M R
S degree; what is byu notorious for?
I don't give much credence to this commentary. It's speculation & is no
more informative than what I can come up with in my own mind. Any writer who
goes to the "older, more mature players" card is clearly not qualified
to make a comment on the Y. Those "older, more mature players" were
plentiful on the 7-6 BYU team last year. Where were all the complaints then?
Until there's something definite by either the Big 12 or BYU this commenter
should probably keep quiet.
If Notre Dame is in, then BYU should go. That will hold the conference together.
Otherwise ... STAY PUT!! The conference appears on its way to implosion.
Sorry but I can't let this one go...and neither should any true blue blooded
Cougar fan. So here it is once more... but this time a classification of
"impeccable" is being wrongfully used catagorically as an undermining
pitch so far from the truth of BYU academics that it's almost criminal... the
author of this article about Oklahoma must really think he got a solid jab
in...and a couple of the posters on here also obviously seem to think so also.
If impeccability in research academics is such a lacking thing at BYU then what
does the academic world think of a University who supposedly has oversight over
all members of thier research departments to ensure the accuracy and validity
of the research they oversee before they announce stunning results and heralding
triumphs that later fizzle on the fires of review. I can think of none more
stunning and so embarassing than the totally inane heralding of achieved Cold
Fusion at one of the campus's in Utah. Is that the kind of impeccability that
the author is talking about. If it is then he's right. You don't find that at
BYU. Try Miami...or Ohio State.
Funny, linking to a Huffington Post article on sports. I don't consider them a
credible source on anything. I just roll my eyes with the nutty stuff they
Pittsburgh will join Big-12.BYU will stay as Indy-WACy
@RedUte...Let's face it. The big12 is BYUs last chance at a BCS
conference. If they miss out, they better get used to playing teams like Eatern
Washington...It now makes sense that BYU will be invitted to
Big-12.If OU leaves, Texas will also leave. Pitts will remain in
Big-East.That leaves Big-12 as Big-mid-major.So, BYU will fit
Let's face it. The big12 is BYUs last chance at a BCS conference. If they miss
out, they better get used to playing teams like Eatern Washington.
BYU is a good fit for independence, anyway. How many schools can actually say
that. They probably should have gone indy 5 years ago rather than waiting for
the MWC to get an AQ or a better TV situation. OU to the pac makes a
lot of sense to me. Texas should follow along and keep a semblance of the
Longhorn network on the Texas regional Pac-16 network. Oklahoma State is an
okay addition but TTech doesn't fit the PAC mold at all. Too bad the big boys
have to bring their ugly little brothers along.
Everest:Hmmmmm... you think maybe TECHnical programs?
BYU lacks "an impeccable academic pedigree" - That's a nice way to say
it. It's not about inputs: ACT scores, entrance GPA's, etc. In
other words a school's admissions requirements are not a measure of its academic
quality.It's about what is produced. How does the institution make
the world a better place through research and expanding human academia. BYU
just doesn't do that. The main thing BYU produces is marriages.
Also, Big 12 and ESPN are in talks with Notre Dame. I'm not saying anything
will come of it - probably not - but the Big 12 isn't giving up. And I really
don't believe OU would want to leave THe Big 12, where it is a big fish in a big
but shrinking pond, to be USC's second fiddle. I'm not sure that Texas is all
that interested in leaving it's fat tv contract for the Pac 12 either.
Their measurement expects kids to graduate within 5 years. Because of the
mission, most students start school, leave for 2 years, then finish school 3 - 4
years later. 6-7 years instead of 4 or 5. Because of this, many schools don't
accept that BYU is a true university. It's a convenient scapegoat
for schools not wanting to accept BYU's mission. I don't mean agree with it,
just accept BYU students for what they are and do. And enough of
the older men argument. It's not like these missionaries are working out every
day. If anything, missions have ruined more players than helped. It does help
with their maturity, but how is it cheating to have more mature players? And
how do you realistically measure that? Also, Utah should be
disqualified as well since half of their players served missions.
Yes, Oklahoma absolutely controls the fate of the Big 12.People say
"Add BYU so the league can get more money". OU doesn't need more
money. They demand stability. They thought they had it, until it turns out
Texas A&M was telling a lie.It's an interesting stand off. BYU
won't commit the Big 12 unless it's stable. OU won't stay unless all members
BYU lacks "an impeccable academic pedigree?" Since when? BYU has
higher ACT and GPA scores for its recruits than most Ivy League schools now.
Various majors like business, accounting, and engineering are ranked among the
country's best. Is it the lack of certain PhD programs? Not sure how that
relates to an athletic conference. On which academic metrics does BYU trail,
say, Texas Tech?
I do have some concerns about the super conference idea. However, Ive read
Wittingham, Scott and others seeing this as setting that new landscape for
future college football. I would rather be part of a conference who is out front
with this than not. Unfortunately for schools not already in a BCS conference,
their future looks bleak. Thank God this didn't happen a year ago.
God must be a Ute!
Yes...as far as today goes.Last Summer Texas was in control, this
summer Texas A&M pushed it to the brink, on Monday byu looked like it could
set terms such as no sunday play...their own tv channel...guarantees from Texas
and Oklahoma to stay put. Today Oklahoma can make big12 expansion moot.
Tomorrow??? Crazy days.Today I prefer PAC12 to PAC16, but I could
warm up to the idea.GO UTES!!!