It's about time we take back our state and nation and more importantly we need
to employ our own people and send illegals, and everyone who supports them, a
message that we are not going to tolerate this nonsense any longer. We need to
send Herbert, Shurtleff, Bramble, and their ilk packing in the next election and
let all greedy employers in Salt Lake County know that we are watching them.
Sign the petition and lets take our state back from all of them.
This won't be the first time these lawmakers got it wrong. Remember Chris
Cannon? Bob Bennett? They thought they were invincible, and their constituents
showed them the door. I've spent a great deal of time striking up
conversations with total strangers on this very issue. I've attended numerous
neighborhood meetings and brought it up. I promise you that 99% of the people I
talk with are staunchly opposed to any form of amnesty. We need our
jobs back and we need wages to rise. We will vote these fools out of office for
blatantly ignoring the anger we feel over this single issue.
How about a petition to deport politicians on both sides for both being wrong on
this issue and all other issues. A petition to get our country,our freedoms,our
constitution back instead of both parties fighting only for power instead what
is right and the American way. Who will sign?
Football Felon,I think you've nailed it. We do need our jobs back.
Those who believe only illegals will do certain work don't know how desperate
AMERICANs are to get those same jobs. Even those migrants that move here
legally have difficulty getting start up jobs because illegals are undercutting
them.Illegals, I know some of you and feel that most of you are
wonderful people. Nothing would make me happier than you becoming legal. Stay
and make a great life for yourself and help us keep America amazing.
As much as we try to wrap this in the constitution and americans hungry for jobs
and our hatred for our own government, I've said it before. If it weren't for
illegals, we couldn't afford lettuce. Or lemons, or dates. Or a lot of other
field crops. Those we could afford would be grown elsewhere. No American wants
that work. If they did, they'd have it.
Racist pure and simple. No matter how you try to say otherwise you are going to
paint with a broad brush all brown skinned peoples as being illegal.in fact you
already have with your postings. US citizens are going to be targeted, either
accidentally or purposely, because of their skin color. A sad day for Utah. A
sad day for America. Takes me back to 1942 and Japanese Americans being
targeted. Pretty sad.
I often wonder just what our state unemployment figure would be rather than 7.4%
if there weren't so many jobs that are done under the radar and by illegals.Besides the jobs being taken our tax dollars are subsidizing the welfare
needs of these illegals, the high costs of crowded classrooms with large numbers
of students who have to have special education, and the costs of medical and
birthing.How can anyone who respects American citizenship promote
allowing the illegals to stay?
@Hutterite - I disagree with you. I WANT to work for $1K/hr. Since the '60s,
we've paid people to sit on their butts and do NOTHING but collect a government
check. It's time we put them to work!! Let them pick vegetables,
pick up trash along the roadways, paint the houses of the poor and elderly. . .
Why do we pay single welfare mothers to sit at home and keep having more kids
because the more kids you have, the more "government" money you get?
Why do we pay men to sit on their porches drinking beer? Why is drug addiction
literally a "qualified disability" for which we pay people to sit
around and do drugs?Here's an idea: you put nothing into the system,
you get nothing out of it. If you've never had a job(or relatively recently),
paid taxes, but you continually collect "benefits" from the system,
YOU GET NO VOTE. You want to be a member or our society, contribute more than
just another bill that the rest of us have to pay.Making able people
earn their keep is not hateful.
I am planning to start my own business and have no plans of hiring people who
only speak spanish - can I get into trouble for that - like would it be
considered discrimination? After all I haven't been able to find a job because I
only speak english with very little spanish, french, and german thrown it.
Ahh here we go with the racism baloney again. Just so you all know the
definition of "racist" is "anyone who is winning an argument with
a liberal". Liberals have no viable or reasonable arguments since, their
defense of illegal immigration is lame and weak and they know. The best test of
their commitment level is to ask how much money they donate every month to
support the expense of having illegals here. I have yet to find anyone who pays
anything. Liberals never want anything unless they can fund it with other
peoples money.@EJM has to cry "racism" because his arguments,
like all liberals, are indefensible. Their phony compassion doesn't extend to
Americans who have been devastated by the effects of having illegals here, they
Reagan was the great Amnesty provider, all hail Reagan.
@ComSen1Welfare is limited to just a few years. This change occurred over
10 years ago. Now the only welfare beneficiaries are the business owners who use
subsidized illegal labor. Speaking of picking vegetables, farmers
are complaining they can't get enough people to pick the crops, yet we have
11-30 million people here illegally. Go figure.
I am conservative with family values. (Something my fellow conservatives often
profess)I uphold the law.I do not believe that
"illegals" merit stricter punishments than our own citizens.How many U.S. citizens smoke Marijuana?How many citizens give
their under-aged teenagers alcohol?How many citizens break laws
every day?Are we so far above the fine people of Mexico that we
deserve lighter punishments, fines, etc... but they be removed from their homes,
separated from family, and so on?They deserve worse? What argument
supports this?I dare say that a conservative who reject "Give
me your tired, your poor/Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
aren't conservatives at all. In fact, this is THE American stand. I personally
do not stand against what American is, being a free country for all men, as we
were all created equal.-D&C 98:5"And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that
principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all
mankind, and is justifiable before me."-Some come
here and work harder, are more honest, etc. I'd take them over the crooked half
of Wall Street any day!
@A voice of ReasonAmericans who break the law are removed from their
home. They are also separated from their families. You do understand that they
are in a foreign country without permission. All nations have immigration laws,
returning them home is the compassionate way to enforce the law. Jail time,
fines and possible loss of life is practiced in other countries for the same
offense. The saying on the State of Liberty was for legal
immigrants. D&C 58:21Let no man break the laws of the
land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the
Re: Hutterite | 10:24 p.m. July 21, 2011 You make the same argument
for the cost of lettuce as they used to make about the need for slave labor to
pick cotton.If it weren't for illegal aliens our crime rate would be
lower, our hospital emergency rooms wouldn't be so full, and there would be more
room in our prisons to house home grown problems.
I battle every day against illegal immigrants in the market place. We do need
our jobs back without our wages being suppressed. This is not the free market
system when the illegals take what they can from the workplace and then go home
and get free health care etc. etc., while the rest of us struggle to make ends
meet. I also agree that shurtliff, bramble and the rest need to go. We got rid
of Cannon, and Bennett.
Why don't you push Hatch and Lee to stop the Republican filibuster in the U.S.
Senate of the comprehensive reform bill, a bill that was strongly supported by
and sponsored by Republicans themselves. They would rather play games and not
let a good bill pass during the Obama Administration than fix things. Put your
efforts in getting the Senate to act. This initiative will solve nothing at
all.Also, ask yourselves, who is providing the jobs. We are the
major cause of this issue, not the people who are coming to fill those jobs.
The focus on the immigrant and not the situation here does in fact suggest that
this is more about things other than obeying the law. So give me a break.
If an invading force is successful, what happens to the country being
invaded?The Invasion Continues!
Jobs are one thing, how about the crimes being committed daily here and
everywhere else by these illegals? Southern Utah grows anyone, and the illegal
prescriptions by illegal store owners locally? What about the arrests of daily
drug dealings? What are the costs of welfare, free medical, education ect? Sheez
jobs are just one of many issues!
Where do I sign up? And how many times can I sign the petition?
"Judd, who went through the training program at Deseret Industries, said he
sees illegal immigrants "pretty much every day" in his ongoing job
search."How does one "see" an illegal immigrant? I
wouldn't know from one person to the next if I was presented with a lineup
whether someone was here illegally or not!Also, is he seeing these
illegal immigrants at the training programs at Deseret Industries? Is the
church providing free job training programs for illegal immigrants?
Re:ConSen1You are behind the times and misinformed. Welfare was reformed
by a Republican Congress and Pres. Clinton in the 90's. I recommend you read
about the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act.
Seems people could care less about trailor trash born in the USA taking
advantage of the system. That is why I know this issue is racist driven.We
need to get rid of government giving out to all lazy people period.Republicans and Democrats are equally wrong on this issue. All they want is
power. Dont feed them.
All I want to know is, where do I go to sign?
It is sad that in the state of Utah there is such hate toward those who have
brown skin. We whose ancestors were chased from pillar to post because of our
religion should have some compassion toward those who have crossed without
permission the border seeking a better life. I can not understand
how any LDS person who understands the gospel can have such a lack of compassion
toward those of our brothers and sisters of Mexican descent.How can you
call yourselves Christian?
Welcome to Mexitah. Naive and greedy people will always try to make this a
racial issue, even though many "Hispanic" Americans are also seeing
their incomes diminish and disappear. There's a heavy price to pay (ask
Mexifornia) when you allow unrestricted traffic from third-world populations
which only export cheap labor, dependency, crime, and drugs. This is NOT a
racial issue, and HB 116 is not a "guest worker" bill; it's an
amnesty/sanctuary bill, designed to keep the profiteer pockets full and yours
close to empty. We desperately need a "Wake Up Utah!" program, while
there's still hopefully time.
Where do I sign?I was unemployed for two years. When my unemployment
benefits ran out I ended up homeless. I was living out of my truck or sleeping
in a tent. I didn't get any financial aid, housing assistance, etc. I would
have taken ANY job. In fact, you wouldn't believe some of the jobs I applied
for. I also applied for a lot of jobs that stated "Preference given to
Spanish speaking or bi-lingual applicants". I only speak American, so I
was overlooked for these positions that I could have otherwise performed.The time has come for us to stand up for ourselves because obviously our
elected officials are either so out of touch with reality, don't care or are
afraid of being called a "racist" to be effective. If our leaders
won't lead, we need to! It's time to stop "press 1 for English", we
need to amend the consitution so there are no anchor babies for undocumented
residents and all the other bending over we are doing for these illegals and
reclaim what is OUR'S. And BTW if you want to call me a racist, go
right ahead. I've been called worse.
For me this is a great deal more about how the cost of living increases year
after year while pay for most of us never keeps pace. It is about corporations
being given tax breaks, etc. because they "create jobs" that they then
take out of the US anyway. It is about, depending on your locale, a mediocre or
failing education system and the "deficit" of preparation kids have to
do the work that needs doing because our drop out rate has increased and our
graduation rate is sliding into the toilet. However, illegals are not the cause
of these things. There are laws on the books that are simply not followed. Why
do we need more? In my brief contact with illegals in California, I know they
slip into our country because they have hope for a better future. They don't
want to break the law. But they have also seen "law" come to mean
something corrupted in their countries. What they really need, like most of us,
is to be validated. They need to know they matter. May sound like liberal
gibberish, but it is what most of us need in the hardest of times.
@Well Read: You see, there is a difference. The Pioneers set out and found a new
uninhabited place to call their own. They built this state from the ground
up.They didn't get here, find a huge settlement of some other people
then break their laws and live among them, taking advantage of their good will
and social programs hoping that eventually their numbers would be large enough
that it would be easier to accept them than to chase them off.I
don't have a problem with people coming to this nation. Unless we are Native
American our families all came from somewhere. I DO have a problem with people
who won't follow the rules in order to gain legal access to the USA and all it
has to offer. It's complicated and expensive, I get that. But people
do it the legal way every year just the same. The process was purposefully
designed to keep out criminals and other undesirables... and immigrating to the
US is insanely easy compared to what happens in the UK, France, Germany or
Australia. The Australians won't grant you a resident visa unless you have
$60,000 in the bank.
RE: Well ReadDoesn't your church say to "Obey the laws of the
land"? The law of the land states that immigrants should come to this
country LEGALLY.And while your handing out compassion, what about
handing some out to the rest of us who are struggling? Or do you only have
compassion for those of "Lamanite blood"?Stand in a
grocery store line behind someone who doesn't speak a word of the American
language and watch them pay for their grocery cart full of food with a Horizon
card while you mentally add up how much you have in your hands and hope you have
enough to pay for it. Do that a time or two and you understand that compassion
can be misdirected to those who don't deserve it.If they want a
better life, let them fix their own country instead of bleeding us dry.
Here is my problem. Why do we allow these illegals to come here and then change
things to the way THEY want it. Why can't they come here and asimulate into
American culture. Why is it that when I go into a store, I have to try to find a
sign in ENGLISH. I feel like I am the one from a distant land. I have spent 9
years overseas and I learned the language or I did not survive well. Why do we
bow down to those who are here illegally?I sometimes wonder if
business people who hire illegals sit around and say how patriotic they are but
the almighty dollar trumps flag and country. Wake up people. If you are here
legally, I welcome you with open arms.....if not then get out of my country!
MUCH thanks to all those who take their time to help with the petition drive.Its been VERY disheartening the last several years to watch our
legislature basicaly "rubber stamp" whatever the illegal trespassers
and their employers wanted.I always thought our legislature would
care more about the voting LEGAL citizens' than illegal immigrants. I was
mistaken.With everyones' help the petition drive will be wildly
successful.Maybe then we can start trying to change the attitudes of
Utahs' sanctuary cities!
CJ--your comments and those of others who think like you do are disturbingly
reminiscent of something I recently read in relation to the Jews, and the
despising, vitriolic view many Germans had for them after WWI."The conditions laid out in the Treaty of Versailles were in large part
about punishing Germany for the first World War...because of the economic
situation, people were already angry and desperate, and looking for something on
which to blame their troubles."Just seems that you and others
who are in difficult economic/employment/political situations now, are en mass
turning another ethnic group into the scapegoat as a focus for your own unhappy,
unsettled feelings, the way many Germans did the Jews.
@defibman: Because apparently American's aren't proud enough of their culture,
heritage or history to fight for it. Our government obviously doesn't care, or
they would have done something about it by now.Laws aside, I would
encourage all true American Patriots to take a stand to preserve this nation's
identity, while we still have one.
Hey, I'm brown skinned. I'm here legally, and I would LOVE to be stopped and
questioned on my LEGAL documents - that would mean something, ANYTHING was being
done to decrease the amount of illegal aliens choking the life out of this great
The scapegoating of illegal immigrants on the previous 36 comments makes me
I am so glad people in Utah are NOT backing down from the churches,the Chamber
and the Sutherland Institute with Mr (know it all)Mero. These groups do have
ulterior motives none of which take into consideration the average Utah working
family. These institutions have been wrong before and are certainly wrong for
being on the side of illegal lawbreakers this time. Have no fear God knows what
is in our hearts and no amount of belittling or name calling by these so called
intellectuals will change the fact that all we are doing is asking people to
come here legally and show respect for our country. No good can come to this
world by weakening the USA. If you truly believe God has blessed this
country,you must stand up and defend her laws on the home front as our service
men have done for us abroad we must speak up and do out of respect for them at
home. Funny how the people are taking the moral side of this issue against the
so called moral institutions. Makes one ponder about the Catholic Church and
their support of the Nazis in Germany.Hmmmmmmm.
0 illegal immigrants should be our goal.Muy Bien to this group!
This movement is extremely mislead and unenlightened. It will bring the
judgments of God down upon us. The Latinos are the "remnant of Jacob"
and the very people spoken of by Isaiah, Micah, and other prophets in the Bible
and in the Book of Mormon. Maybe those judgements are just inevitable. Maybe
we are too stupid to heed a warning. I give up. Like Jonah, I am going to find
a tree on Oquirrah mountain to sit under while I wait for the fireworks.
"We call things racism just to get attention. We reduce complicated
problems to racism, not because it is racism, but because it works."
--- Alfredo Gutierrez, political consultant, as quoted by Richard de
Uriarte, The Phoenix Gazette, March 14, 1992This is not just over
the economy. Americans have been fighting this since the early 80's. So much
misinformation by the pro-illegal people.
Sure, let's keep picking on those without a voice. Those here without valid
status did not cause the great recession, they did not steal everyone's jobs,
and certainly they are not keeping the economy in the dump. They were not the
ones buying home after home on credit or borrowing against their homes on
inflated home values. They didn't take the junk loans and bet against their own
economy hoping the bottom would fall out. The economy crashed out of greed and
not an individual picking fruit from a field. But, it is easy to point at them
and say they are breaking the law and taking our jobs and blaming them for all
the social ills because they have no voice. If you want to look to
examples of anti-immigrant laws gone wrong, look to Georgia. The recent laws
have caused day laboreres to skip the state, causing millions in damages to
rotting crops. The governor suggesting letting parolees work the fields. They
last less than a half day. The Governor then said the farmers need to learn to
plant less labor intensive crops. The road to you know where is paved with good
Without a voice? I can hear them loud and clear. They're shouting over the
voices of those who live here and obey the laws.Coming here
illegally is a CRIME. The laws say so, and they've been on the books for quite
some time. Why are you people supporting the acts of CRIMINALS?I
tell ya' what... I'm gonna do 100MPH on the freeway home this afternoon. When a
State Trooper pulls me for speeding I'm gonna tell him "But officer,
millions of people do it every day." I'll let you know how that turns out.
Illegal immigration is the *same thing*. Doesn't matter if 1, 100, or 100,000
people do it, it's still a crime.
I have read several comments today that suggest that we can't afford to have
citizens pick our produce. This is a argument that is easily seen through!The Dept of Agriculture tells us that the cost of labor in getting our
produce to market is between 7-8% of the cost of producing it. IF the cost of
say, a head of lettuce is $1.00, then DOUBLING the wage of the picker or ALL the
laborers involved in the process will ONLY increase the cost of that head of
lettuce by no more that 8 cents!So, let's not hear about any more
$10 heads of lettuce! Good grief, if the greedy employer is paying $10 per hour
for his labor, TRIPLING the wages to $30 an hour would only mean a $1.16 head of
lettuce!AND, for $30 per hour, even I would pick lettuce!!! I
suspect that many of us would do so -- if the greedy employers were not so
dedicated to the illegal alien cheap labor that they can treat as slaves.This whole argument is so disingenuous that it is really quite pathetic!
I find it very sad that members of the LDS Church try to use doctrine to fight
what their own leaders have said of this issue.The LDS Church, nor
did my statement endorse breaking the law... I only meant that not ALL crimes
merit harsh punishments... and forcing someone out of a country may separate
them from their families for life. There is no comparing that treatment to US
punishments, unless you want to compare it to murderer.Uphold the
law eh? The law is what WE make it. I support laws that allow people to enter
legitimately without ridiculous restrictions that half of America wouldn't care
to meet.---Separating families, when there are other
options available... is in NO way, I repeat... NO way an LDS thing to do. People
will find whatever reason they can to cast stones... sure, the women was
guilty... but Christ still said not to cast stones. And we are just as bad as
they were, who had such hate in them.I don't believe that Jesus
Christ, if we could all see him today, would send them all back. His message is
only for law-abiding citizens?
@marcamus"Those here without valid status did not cause the great
recession, they did not steal everyone's jobs, and certainly they are not
keeping the economy in the dump."Excuse me....but how much do
you think our Government spent on all the illegals health care (ER's, OB/GYN,
Births,etc, etc), education, food stamps, and all the time put into
investigating crimes and other things? Try Billions and Billions and Billions of
$$$$. Get out of the fish bowl and off of the left wing web sites and look at
the REAL picture!They are A cause of the recession, no one said they
stole "everyone's job", just a lot of jobs. and they certainly are
helping to keep our economy in the dumps by continuing to receive food stamps,
use our medical care (for free) and go to our schools without paying taxes.
Does this man check the social security card of each employee at DI?BTW, most of those non-white people you are seeing at Deseret Industries are
refugees from countries that aren't named Mexico, trying to stay alive (genocide
is a luxury we're fortunate to not have to deal with in this country). They're
also here LEGALLY. I agree that something needs to be done about
illegal immigration, but I'm not a fan of the reactionary style of people like
this man. I think there are ways that we could solve this problem without making
@ YorkshireNothing like the Jews. The Jews come into a society and make it
wiser and stronger. Verify the # of Jewish Nobel prize winners.I do not believe
I have every picked up the paper and read that a Jew is growing pot in the
mountains of Utah,or that an illegal Jew has raped and killed a young woman or
kidnapped and killed a young man.Hanging flags from other countries and refusing
to show respect for the American flag.All things that happened in southern
Utah,in my back yard.Not many illegal Jewish single parent households with
children on welfare, or in prison either. The vast majority of people who oppose
illegal immigration,are against it not because they dislike Hispanics,but
because we dislike the disrespect for our country,laws and customs,and yes we
fear the loss of financial resources that could be used to strengthen our
society. Our frustrations are well founded,not racist,not based on illogical
thinking or hatred. My guess is if Swedish folks would come here illegally and
act like the Hispanics, our reactions would be the same
@ watchdogGeorgia farmers doubled wages offered and still hardly
anyone showed for the harvest. A few unemployed individuals did show, but not
nearly enough. If so many unemployed are screaming about not finding work, why
are they not flocking to Georgia? Even unemployed Georgians are not flocking to
the farms. Doubling and tripling wages greatly affects the
percentages in your equations. If the cost of labor doubles and triples, the
final cost increases at a much greater pace. Further, farmers operate on small
margins, and production will quickly shift to other countries. @DefibmanI'm on the far right, but I happen to have had the
opportunity to serve a mission among the hispanic population of Utah and saw
first hand who they really are and not who you state them to be. I do not
portend to know all of their struggles, but I know them to be better citizens
than most and gladly welcome them to our country.
I think the religious aspects of this discussion need to be removed. Sure it's
unfortunate that these people may be separated from their families, and for some
this separation could end up being a long time, but if those families came here
illegally, they knew it was an option. There are consequences to breaking laws
and all citizens must respect the laws of the land. And to whoever
compared this discussion to the Nazi's view of Jews or even those that feel it's
equal to what Americans did to Americans (legal Japanese immigrants)... give me
a break. Nowhere is anyone asking that "Latinos" be rounded up and
murdered en-masse. We only ask that those who are not following the laws, do
so. Jews were NOT breaking laws and were murdered. Illegals are breaking the
law and simply need to become legal citizens by going through proper channels,
or leave the country until they can. Like I said earlier, I welcome
all who immigrate here legally. Don't ruin that experience for those who worked
so hard to get here by sneaking in.
Thanks Watch Dog. You saved me the trouble of correcting Hutterite. That
argument is old and shot down many times. Double the wages makes a small
addition to the lettuce argument. cymrul. Very timely response. Tax
Paying Citizens here who worked on my house in 2000 are all gone and looking for
work. The trades now taken over by illegals. JJJHS. Reagan offered
amnesty to 1.8 million and 3.0 million showed up. That "Amnesty to end all
Amnesties" didn't solve the problem as now we have nearly 20 million to
contend with. Let's learn by history. Viva LEGAL immigration.
Hope the petition succeeds. I just wonder how the gang of 10 (Gov, Ag, Chief,
Doug, Tony, Luz, Bram, AClu, Suther, LaRa) will spin the story when we the
people win (again)?
Ironically enough, illegal aliens could potentially sign this petition several
different times without having to prove their authenticity. However, if a true
citizen tried to do this, it would be questioned with voracity. Pffft!!!
The history of mass expulsion or mistreatment of individuals or families is
cause for concern especially where race, culture, or religion are involved.
This should give pause to any policy maker that contemplates targeting any one
group, particularly if that group comes mostly from one heritage.(Hispanic in
Utah) As those on all sides of the immigration debate in the United States
have noted, this issue is one that must ultimately be resolved by the federal
government.As far as I am concerned any legislation that only contains
enforcement provisions is likely to fall short of the high moral standard of
treating each other properly. I support an approach where undocumented
immigrants are allowed to square themselves with the law and continue to work
without this necessarily leading to citizenship. I with many others
support a balanced and civil approach to a challenging problem, fully consistent
with our tradition of compassion, our reverence for family, and our commitment
I signed up just to comment on this. For one, to all those who are spitting
words such as 'Racist' This is NOT a race issue. There are illegal immigrants of
EVERY race. The point is that these people are taking the jobs of the Americans,
and they are OBVIOUSLY raising the crime rate no matter how people want to deny
it. The fact that they are here ILLEGALLY raises the crime rate on it's own. I
am extremely angered by the current state of Utah. We need to do something about
it before we are all screwed for the benefit of other countries.I would LOVE to
sign this petition. If anyone knows where I can sign, please let me know!
"I think the religious aspects of this discussion need to be
removed."Everything I believe can be tied to very religious as
well as very secular reasons. I voice both of those and that is my right.The Deseret News has how many articles about the LDS church again? Who
owns the paper? - The point? You don't have to read those articles, or my
comments. The second you see religion you can run away from such comments, and
if that is your desire, I have no problem with it.-However, I myself wouldn't ask an atheist to stop using irreligious arguments
in a political debate. If it's what they belief, fine... I welcome it!Michael Sandel, a philosophy professor at Harvard- and one of the most
recognized philosophical figures alive today, has said something amazing about
religious arguments in politics. He even addressed this in a TED talks
presentation, a group that is far more liberal than most Utahn's can handle...
and even this group can appreciate his points.He uses Aristotle and
virtue ethics, and telos, to explain why we should accept religious arguments in
politics.I highly recommend watching this highly intellectual
How did we arrive at this point, as a society? A people arrives from another
country, seeking employment, so destitute that they are willing to work for a
pittance, and we rise up with petitions against them simply because they do not
have paperwork. We blame them, in part, for our failed economy. We assume they
are going to go on to become our criminals -- our murderers, thieves, and
rapists. We call them "aliens," and speak of an "invasion."
Do we forgive them for not having their paperwork? No, for that would be
amnesty. Now, amnesty might be just another word for forgiveness -- a thing we
believe in -- but because we have been trained not to be amnesty-ites, we will
not forgive them. We tally up how much they cost in welfare, never minding that
we could tally up such totals on other segments of our society, and kick them
out just as well when the total reached a certain point. I ask, if we don't want
people on welfare, why pass laws making it illegal for them to work? Why oppose
HB116, a bill that puts people to work?
To CJ: I am much more conservative than anything else. My argument has been and
does remain that people with brown skin will be targeted unfairly and have been
targeted unfairly as being illegals when they are, in fact, US citizens. Many of
them are members of the LDS Church as are the majority of the posters on here. I
find it amazing that people of a Christian religion would post such venomous
postings on here and claim to be followers of Jesus Christ. Oh, BTW, I am not
LDS. Do I believe in the rule of law? Yes. And at the same time I have no
problem with the people who are proposing this petition who are doing it for
valid reasons. But some of the postings have gone too far because you don't have
to be a rocket scientist to see that they do play the race card. Even Stevie
Wonder could see that. Oh oh, better use Ronnie Millsap instead. Yeah, even the
old country music legend could see that.
EJM,This has little or nothing to do with racism. I, and others are
just as opposed to the 400,000 or so Irish illegals as we are to the 12 million
Mexicans who think our laws don't apply to them. The effects of illegal
immigration on this country and state is enormous, I have personally been the
victim of illegal alien crime four times now. If you think that an illegal alien
who comes here and undercuts an American or flat out takes their job and then
sends the money home to his foreign country isn't hurting the economy on a grand
scale then you are hallucinating. Trying to simplify this issue by boiling it
down to racism and/or religion completely misses the point. We are being
invaded, looted, and face the very real possibility that our country is going to
become a third world nation. Accusing those who are trying to stop this insanity
of racism or unchristian behavior is like calling the person who stops a home
invasion of being the criminal. Wake up!
Brit1123, the immigrants aren't taking your job. Most, if not all, of you
teatimers are middle income. I know quite a few immigrants and none of them
have one of your middle income jobs.
It is not racist to expect all to follow the law. On the other hand, it IS
racist to give an instate tuition rate to foreigners and not to all U.S.
citizens.It IS racist to apply the law to citizens - and not to
foreigners equally.It IS racist to allow one group to ignore our
laws, while holding another accountable to those laws.It IS racist
for Chief Burbank to knowingly lie when listing race as white - when he knows
full well they are anything but.It IS NOT compassionate to allow
some to intentionally break our laws when holding others accountable, it is
deceitful and biased.It IS NOT merciful to not demand accountability
for all violations of the rule of law. Our scriptures teach us that mercy
cannot rob justice.EVERY ONE of us that thinks compassion demands
that we allow intentional violations of our laws is going to face Him one day,
and be surprised when He asks how come they didn't apply the law fairly to
everyone.One other thing: Prison separates families. So does
deportation (if they choose). NEITHER action is anyone's fault but the
Watch Dog:I agree with all of your points on upholding the law, and
equally.I only meant that deportation and prison time are not the
same, and that deportation can have very permanent, and in my opinion unfair
consequences.-------"Our scriptures teach us that
mercy cannot rob justice."Read Alma chapter 42. Mercy saves the
repentant from punishment, and that doesn't rob justice at all.Also-
God's laws are higher than our laws. It was once "Just" (aka: law) to
kill Mormons.-------"EVERY ONE of us that thinks
compassion demands that we allow intentional violations of our laws is going to
face Him one day, and be surprised when He asks how come they didn't apply the
law fairly to everyone."In the end God will certainly judge us,
but with his own words, not ours.-------Many are missing
my point.I uphold laws but WE, the people, decide punishments. This
in no way negates law, but that justice can be served without the 'send them
back'-'eye for an eye' version of punishment - The Church publicly has come
against UNNECESSARILY separating families.Search "straw
man" - misrepresenting your opponents argument weakens your own. I DO
support upholding law.
CJ: "Little or nothing to do with racism"? What is a little racism?
Thank you for agreeing with my argument because there is no such thing as a
little racism. Either people will be singled out due to the color of their skin
or due to their name ....that is a "little" racism. And it happens
among every ethnic group in America. The bad part is that that is not what
America is supposed to be all about.
I've lived in other countries and seen what happens. They work very hard to get
their children or relatives into the U.S., where we, through our greed, give
them jobs. Or we are kind and caring and take pity on them. Then, the
unthinkable happens. A huge portion of their wages are not spent in this
country; instead funds, maybe as much as 50 percent, are sent home their
homelands and end up bolstering the economies of these foreign countries instead
of our own. The money is flat out taken out of the system. And this breaks all
the rules of economic survival; and it looks to me like the "kind and
caring" folks don't even care. In Belize, for instance, the entire country
depends on just such practices. And the Belizeans don't buy U.S. goods in
return, but often buy Chinese, Guatemalan, or German goods instead. Net result:
the U.S. loses on the exchange. Oh, yeah...give me your tired, your poor, your
huddled masses, and I'll put them to work, so they can spend their wages
somewhere other than in our country...
I understand the church's stance on things. I also understand that is our agency
to do as our hearts and minds tell us to.It is not just our money that is
being spent, it is other peoples money as well and another administrative move
to redistribute the wealth and devalue the dollar. I came from a heart of love
when I gave my neighbor (illegals) 20 bags of clothing before I moved, only to
have them run into my trash cans party all hours of the night, park so I
couldn't get out of my driveway, and create a scene that devalued and delayed
the sale of my home. I don't believe we have the right to give other peoples
money away despite the fact this administration thinks under the name of
compassion they will continue to destroy this country. When I moved back to
Utah 5 years later the lady that was living in my apartment before me was
collecting state aid, selling items on the side out of her car, and she was
living with a man who was collecting disability and workmans comp. I saw the
checks! This state is not doing all it can.