Either we are a nation of laws or, we're not. Love and mercy are important but,
they do not supplant justice. I don't personally hate illegal aliens. They are
God's children. However, when they break the law coming here w/o documentation,
they should be quickly and humainly deported.Illegals should not be
accomidated and /or supported by our government or any organization within the
United States. The LDS Church is WRONG to support illegal aliens. Offering
full fellowship to them is a slap in the face to those of us who strive to obey
the law and live honest lives.The Message the LDS Church is loudly
broadcasting is blatently contrary to what they have claimed to teach and follow
since the early 1800's.
I don't know the backgrounds of the others mentioned in the article, but I do
know that Stuart Reid served in our Army for 7 years. How many years of
military service does the coward who called Mr. Reid a traitor serve? The
traitors are those who would usurp the democratic process through fear and
intimidation. These are tough times, but not so tough that we can't elect good
men and women who are willing to make hard decisions and take action when our
federal leaders are too preoccupied with making themselves look good to a
non-existent party like the tea toddlers who cry and scream that theirs is the
only way. Utah's solution to the immigration problem is a fair solution in a
day when Washington will not act. Please do not follow the cowards whose put
forth such slanderous comments as were made against Senator Reid.
To "ksampow | 10:26 a.m." we already have a sensible, balanced
immigration policy. The problem is that the border between the US and Mexico is
not secure, so people that don't want to follow the process are able to cross
into the US.
Trying to come up with a sensible, balnced immigration policy in the absence of
federal action is not traitorous and is not amnesty. The federal government has
really dropped the ball on this issue. We need to enforce our laws, but we can
not pretend that it is affordable or even possible to deport more than a million
people who are in this country illegally. AS for saying that these people
have "no right" to be here, we didn't have any "right" to
take the land away from the Native Americans (American Indians) or even the
Hispanics that were here before the English.
I moved to Utah from a very liberal state a few months ago. The most far left
advocates were those supporting amnesty for illegals. Incidentally the state has
high unemployment and massive debt. Becky Lockhart,Paul Mero,in recent opinion
pieces continue to use extreme for those opposing HB116. I believe that a
reasonable person,compassionate and caring could support repeal of HB116.The
diversity and melting pot in Utah includes those from other states who move
here. How is it fair to allow those illegally here to take jobs legal citizens
deserve and need?
In connection with my last comment about a proper logical debate, I read this
comment: "This never was a "guest worker" bill. It's an
amnesty/sanctuary bill, designed and forced through by the powerful cheap-labor
lobby." by JayTee 12:37 p.m. July 21, 2011.What, asking both sides,
is the definition of "guest worker bill" and "amnesty/sanctuary
bill"? Not having read it I would personally define a guest worker bill as
allowing someone in to work with paperwork, like the carte de travail I had when
I went on a mission to France. There is no crime committed. To me a
amnesty/sanctuary bill is one that means that there was a crime committed. That
the person has no penalty or punishment to pay for that crime and can take
his/her place in line with those who went through the bureaucratic hoops rather
than at the end after them. They can become citizens without knowing the
Constitution and what it's original intent was. They are able to vote as a
payment for this corruption. Being illegal they can't report crimes to the
police by employers or others against them.
This kind of labeling, "The package of bills lawmakers passed this year as
a "Utah solution" to illegal immigration has drawn much criticism
among far-right Republicans" is what leads most to see the media as bias
way to the left. Exactly, how is any position on immigration appropriately
labeled left or right let alone "far-right" or "far-right".
There are major portions of the population of Utah that do not agree with Utah
passing an knowingly unconstitutional law, with a waver request to over come the
problems. Please, stop demagoguing and help with the discussion.
I just read a comment where someone called someone a traitor. The commenter said
that it didn't need a response. I disagree.Generally rediculous points are
rediculously easy to refute. There are exceptions.There are things
that are needed for a good debate.Proper: Meaning with order and
civility.Logical: Meaning using the rules of logic to show fallacies on
all sides. I think a logic tree with questions and answers or possible answers
is best.Debate: Meaning real questions and answers by everyone, including
the audience, and with the record always available for inspection and additions
as needed.Someone calls someone a traitor. They better be able to prove
@Freedom, Giving the bill a cut off days several months in the
future, to accommodate those who had never lived here, was indeed a ploy to
bring in more illegal help. There is no other way to look at it. Kind gentle Rep. Wright called American workers lazy. Nothing more
than a ploy to destroy enforcement, and keep it the way it is now. We need to
get rid of this, and to pass E-verify like Arizona. The Supreme court has ruled
it constitution, it's time to act. The mayor of West Valley has already
championed this move in his city. Let all the cities pass their own e-verify, if
our state leaders refuse to.
@ Really?I know a lot of people who have been displaced by illegals
and a lot who can't compete with them in business because they (illegals) don't
follow the laws of the state and don't pay taxes. When you come home from
Shirley Temple land and open your eyes to the devastation illegal immigration is
causing you might try looking up the word "compassion" and showing a
little for your own countrymen who deserve it instead of lawbreaking criminals.
I would like to know how many immigrants you are currently housing and how much
money you contribute each month to support them. Illegals displace Americans
every day, if you don't think so then you are very naive. The money earned by
their illegal employment then goes out of the country. If you think this hasn't
hurt the economy then you need to quit worrying about phony
"compassion" and go get some common sense.
Civil discourse is so difficult!
This story reminds me of what it says in the Book of Mormon about member of the
church (!) persecuting those who did not believe according to their own
@Fitness FreakTo say or suggest that HB116 was a ploy to get more
cheap labor into the state is the kind of statement that strips you of all
credibility. I was there. I know what happened. I've spoken with the
sponsors, the opponents, those on all sides. I just want you to know that you
need to look for the real cause this was passed. You've missed the mark. I'm
sure your opinion feeds your anger. It's sad because your anger is based on
false information. That's truly a waste of time and energy. Rep.
Wright is one of the kindest, gentlest men you'll ever meet. If you were open
to it, willing to see past your assumptions, you might have had the privilege of
knowing how this bill came about through Rep. Bramble and Rep. Wright. Can you
at least give room to the fact that you might be wrong? There are amazing and
beautiful experiences waiting on the other side of your anger.... that you've
decided to hang on to. Go back and read my other post if you havn't
already. Just remember, we WILL get what we ask for. Make sure
Traitors to Utah...LOL.
The simple fact about HB116 is that it is unlawful. Everyone at the Capitol
acknowledges this fact. So, why was an unlawful bill passed? Sounds like
Obamacare to me.RichardB: your post is spot on. Nice work!
@Arm of Orion: Question that I hope you anti-illegal immigrants can tell me.
What kind of law and penalty are assessed to the first time illegal
It would seem the article focuses on one persons description, and not on the
fact that people are fighting for the few jobs available. HB116 will
never get Federal approval, and if it goes into effect, it will be challenged in
court. It will never see the light of day. What it will do is keep the illegal
immigration problem in this state the way it was before. The package
of bills were never meant to change things, but maintain the illegal workforce
and assure that there is plenty of cheap labor to keep wages depressed, and
unemployment high. Compassion is a two way street, those breaking
our laws show a lack of it, including our business community that hires illegal
aliens, and the people who passed this law. Notice that no state
followed Utah's lead, but plenty followed Arizona.
JJJHS said, "This guy is obviously the product of right wing radio talk,
the kind that teachs people to be divisive and attack those they disagree with.
How do I know? I used to be a daily listener of Beck and Hannity until I
realized I should follow the teachings of Jesus Christ instead of the doctrines
of men like radio talk show hosts.This is the kind of behavior the
General Authorities of the LDS Church warns against."Sir, your
daily rants and raves as an "independent" are no different than what
you claim this man is doing. The hate and vitriol that oozes from your posts is
astounding. To claim that you are following the Savior in your endeavors is
laughable.And let me remind you it was your Dear Leader who told his
followers to get in the faces of their neighbors and then the over-the-top
statement of telling them to bring a gun to a knife fight.You sound
exactly like every host on PMSNBC, including the departed Olbermann and
Shuster.Please spare us your sanctimony and comment on the issue.
Follow your mothers advice and don't say anything at all!
What do you call people who:- Pass a law that is in conflict with the US
Constitution,- And encourages foreign nationals to unlawfully enter the
United States,- And encourages foreign nationals to unlawfully enter
Utah,- And tells the unemployed people of Utah they are out of work
because they just won't work cheaply enough?Are we not adult enough
to accept that inviting a foreign invasion is treasonous? Do we not
understand that the Bill of Rights protects free speech because free speech is
often offensive. Because the truth is sometimes ugly, sometimes we need to use
ugly words to tell the truth.Compassion is a great idea. I don't
know who among us is legal and who is illegal so I treat everyone kindly - they
are all God's children. How about some kindness to our legal friends
and neighbors? Quit inviting people to come here illegally. That's exploitation,
not compassion.How about announcing, as they did in Arizona, that
this is not the place for the undocumented. Close the door first and then we can
discuss how to deal with those who are already here.
Qjuestion that I hope you anit-illelgal immigrants can tell me. What kind of law
and penalty are assesed to the first time illegal immigrants?
"Abeille"WHICH "i.d" do you suppose the illegal
trespassers will show to "sign up"? Most of them have 3 or 4 sets.If you don't know who the lobbyists are for illegal trespassers, just check a
few articles in the DN. You'll probably figure it out. They spend hundreds of
thousands of dollars per year, if for no other reason than to guarantee yet
ANOTHER year of inexpensive labor.Most LEGAL hispanics I know also care
about their neighbors losing their jobs, and obeying the law. Illegal
trespassers don't.Employers ARE subject to fines NOW for hiring
illegal immigrants. Nobody enforces that. Why would law enforcement want a NEW
law when they refuse to enforce the EXISTING law?HB116 is ludicrous
on its face. Probably illegal too! The feds insist on having the right to NOT
ARREST illegal immigrant trespassers. No one else.Thank you for
your comments, but HB116 is just not logical and WILL be repealed. Utahs LEGAL
citizens have had enough!
How many of you complainers actually know somebody who lost a job to an illegal
alien?How many of you complainers personally pay the $400 million
dollars to educate the children of illegal aliens?How many of you
complainers have actually made an attempt to get to know your neighbors who may
be from a different country?How many of you complainers have heard
of the word compassion?Yes, we do have some problems with illegal
immigration. Yes, things need to change. I would just like to see this state
that I love become more welcoming and tolerant of others.
Abeille, Instead of sitting around reading bills that were hatched
by Chamber of Commerce Republicans for their benefit and everyone else's
detriment why don't you go out and see the devastation illegal immigrants are
causing first hand for yourself? Talk to thousands of Utahns who are
unemployed and can't find a job while illegal Mexicans take jobs they used to
have and send the MONEY TO MEXICO.Talk to subcontractors and lawn service
companies who have to compete with illegal Mexicans for every job and obey the
tax laws while their illegal counterparts do not have to.Talk to police
officers who can tell you that the largest distribution network for black tar
heroin in the western U.S. is in SLC and is run primarily by illegal Mexican
nationals.Talk to schools that are overrun with illegal kids who can't
speak English.Finally, talk to hospitals that are drowning in red ink from
providing free health care to illegals.HB116 is nothing but an attempt to
make a deal with criminals who are breaking the law and people like you who
support it are truly pathetic.
'Is this the best that the GOP-TP has to offer in the way of solutions to a
situation they do not like?' - Ronnie Bray | 12:50 p.m. July 21, 2011 Typically. *'Trump on Obama's Birth Certificate: 'Maybe It Says
He's a Muslim' - Fox Nation - 03/30/11 *'During the June 6 edition
of Fox News' America's Pulse, host E.D. Hill teased an upcoming discussion by
saying, "A fist bump? A pound? A terrorist fist jab?' *'GOP
official apologizes for Obama chimp email' - By GILLIAN FLACCUS - AP -
04/19/11 'Calif. woman sends 'birther' message with photo of president's
face on chimpanzee's body' *'Gays greatest threat to America,
Buttars says' - By Aaron Falk - DSnews - 02/19/09 *'Buttars used
'black baby' remark again, officials say' - By Rodger L. Hardy - DSNews -
07/05/08 *'Sen. Orrin Hatch utters profanity about President Obama's
health care reform' - By Jamshid Ghazi Askar - DSNews - 03/01/11
*'Newt Gingrich Slammed For Saying Obama May Hold 'Kenyan, Anti-Colonial'
Worldview' - By Sam Stien - Huffington Post - 11/12/10
It seems as though there is a lot of hot air in the direction of hating
illegals. Perhaps people should channel that hot air and turn in every illegal
they are aware of who works at their place of employment to the INS. Be
something more than hot air if you are against this kind of thing. Stand for
something. Do something about it.
As it stands, the law is slated to go into affect in 2013 with or without
Federal approval. It's unconstitutional. It interferes with the Supremacy clause
of the constitution. Remember the Supremacy clause? That's the
reason the pro-illegal folks told us that Arizona's law was unconstitutional. It
would seem they jumped the fence and are now arguing the opposite position. Arizona's laws mirrored the Federal government, Utah supersedes them and
gives more power to the state. Yes, it's unconstitutional without waivers. And
the government will never give up the power of authority to Utah on immigration.
Who is kidding who?It's only purpose is to supply cheap
illegal labor to business. It gives unlimited amnesty to those here
illegally by allowing them to stay. It also violates immigration and labor laws
by allowing them to work at jobs Americans are able and willing to do. Is giving away Utah's jobs a traitorous act? I leave it to the individual to
This amnesty/sanctuary bill has to be the WORST piece of legislation to ever
come out of our legislature, and is a total embarrassment to the State and the
LDS Church. We have a serious problem here folks, and the cheap-labor lobby
people aren't going to solve it for you; they're too concerned with their own
bottom line. Too bad they duped the ecclesiastical people into thinking that
this monstrosity has anything at all to do with "compassion" and
"charity." It's a serious shame that politicians can complicate the
obvious and encourage a conflagration of absurdity the way they've done with
When unsavoury epithets are employed in pace of reasoned argument and comment,
then the epithet hurler has lost the argument and my interest.Is
this the best that the GOP-TP has to offer in the way of solutions to a
situation they do not like?Government by any party will never be
perfect, but democracy is the best we can do until He whose right it is to rule
and reign comes to take over.
Fitness Freak -Since you've read HB116 numerous times, you'll know
most of the answers to your comments. But I'm willing to help:1.
Since Employers are subject to fines for all illegals not in U-Verify, they will
find it disadvantageous to hire illegals.2. Illegals who arrive here will
not have a chance to work more than 30 days before they HAVE to sign up.
Besides,3. The person must have worked or lived in Utah before May
10,2011. Therefore, 'MORE' Guest Workers will not be an issue (only applies to
those here right now) and this will NOT attract more 'illegal trespassers' -
they wouldn't be able to work here.4. Farmers and enforcement - Since I am
not in law enforcement, I don't know how it will work. However, I agree with
your statement: I put more faith in our law enforcement system than you do.5. I know of no 'illegal immigrant' lobby in the state of Utah. There are
lobbies advocating for the rights of Hispanics, but I wouldn't call them an
'illegal immigrant' lobby.Since this is my fourth post, it's the
last I can make on this subject. Please read HB116, everyone.
This never was a "guest worker" bill. It's an amnesty/sanctuary bill,
designed and forced through by the powerful cheap-labor lobby. It's time for
the taxpayers and citizen workers of Utah to stand up tall and resist those who
are willing to sell them down the river for reasons related to pure politics and
"Abeille" Sure I've read the bill NUMEROUS times. What
makes you think illegals will even WANT to "sign up". I know
illegals, they DON'T "sign up" for stuff. (unless its free stuff)What guarantees do you have that law enforcement will begin to arrest
ALL THE TRESPASSERS who arrive here hoping to "blend in", but choose
NOT TO "sign up".Maybe you have more faith in the
"enforcement" component than I do.But I still wonder - why
do we need MORE "guest workers" when our LEGAL citizens have such a
high unemployment rate.Utahs "guest worker" bill was
simply a ploy to attract even more illegal trespassers that we definitely DON'T
NEED!BTW - why would a farmer go to the bother to hire a "guest
worker" when he can just go to home center parking lots and hire the same
guys for HALF what he would pay "guest workers"?The
illegal immigrant lobby just hopes that the "guest worker" bill,
(assuming its allowed to stand)will simply allow EVEN MORE illegal immigrants to
"blend in" with the population and NOT be questioned.
To: Bryan - that is a very good point and question. Why are we, the citizens
being put back to facilitate the illegals?. That is my question. There are many
who do not have employment here in Utah(including my husband) and when they look
at even the lower-paying jobs the Mexicans are being hired(illegally) and they
don't seem to care about their citizens, who are legal. We live in a sad world
and hopefully someone with clout and common-sense will be able to get this thing
turned around and the Utah citizens will come first. We can only HOPE.
How many Utahns out there haven't read HB116, just like Fitness Freak? If
Fitness Freak had read HB116, he/she would know that:1. the bill
requires Employers to withhold both Federal and State taxes at the same level as
legal residence - both income tax withholding and Social Security.2. the
bill requires that Guest Workers have Health Care insurance.3. Employers
must use E-Verify or U-Verify to verify all Guest Workers status.4.
Employers are subject to the same minimum wage rules all Americans enjoy.5. Law Enforcement is required to inform Federal Agencies if an undocumented
illegal alien is found.6. Employers are subject to fines for
non-verification of Guest Worker Status.7. Guest Workers have no right to
unemployment compensation.8. The Utah State Guest Worker program is
substantially different, and has different aims, than the Federal Guest Worker
program.Unfortunately, the only way Fitness Freak, or anyone else,
would know this is if they go and read HB116 for yourself. Neither I nor many
others who post on this board have a 'pro-illegal agenda'. Why don't you read
the bill for yourself, instead of posting heresay?
I don't know what I'm more disappointed with the bickering, misinformed who
continually make comments based on faulty information, or the fact that nothing
is being done. First, No, nothing in the constitution states that
religion can't influence legislative matters. What it states is that the US
cannot adopt one religion and require all to belong to that religion. Second, HB116 is not unconstitutional. If it were enacted without waivers,
then it would be unconstitutional. If waivers are granted, it becomes a US
sanctioned program thus becoming constitutional. Third, complaints
about illegal immigrants need to be grounded in documented fact before they can
actually be useful. Forth, please don't believe everything you read
or hear in the news. Fifth, battle of egos will never solve this
issue. We need to come together and work this through. Sixth, stop
name calling and assumptions. It doesn't help and it's rarely accurate.Seventh, a word of caution. Be careful how firmly you plant your feet.
Tragic unintended consequences often go undiscovered until it's too late due to
the blinders built by pride and arrogance. If only we could find a
loving, gentle way through this mess...
The funny thing about the debat on HB116 is that the bill is dependant on the
Federal Government granting Utah a waiver on immigration laws. If the federal
government denies the waiver, the law means nothing.TO "bixby35
| 7:14 p.m" the constitution does not say anything about the separation of
church and state.
Republican vs. Tea Party! Fight to the (political) death!
How many Utahns think its "o.k." for legal Utah residents to pay 400
million per year to illegal trespassers for their free education, welfare,
healthcare, etc.?How many Utahns think its "o.k." that
your neighbor lost his job due to an illegal immigrant working at one-half
salary? (or less)How many Utahns understand that the federal govt.
ALREADY has a "guest worker program"? BTW - THAT ONE isn't enforced
much either.How many Utahns actually believe Utah law enforcement
would enforce a "new" program when they won't enforce the OLD
program?The DN editorial board has a decidedly pro-illegal agenda
and its unfortunate that they took ONE comment to make their headline.But I thank them for at least reporting on the issue.
Yes, Led Zeppelin II, that'll go over like a ... oh, you heard that one.Sorry, but I'm not aware of much getting accomplished by those who sit
on the fence.I, for one, cannot stand the stand (pardon the pun)
that GOP/TP-ers take, but at least they drive me to do my best to counteract and
correct their inane approach to the world's woes.
How many of you out there, willing to call our Representatives 'traitors', have
ever read HB116? I'll bet there's no more than 1 or 2 of you out there that's
actually read the bill. I have. If you haven't read the bill yourself, how can
you have any good opinion of your own on the matter? Looks like wrz out of
Miami, Florida has read it. How about all you living here in Utah? Are you
willing to take the time to read it? For all those who adhere to the LDS faith,
as I do: Why haven't you read it? Are you willing to say the council of our
faith is wrong when you don't even know how this bill is written?This bill is not amnesty, as many of the 'Tea Party' adherents claim. Read the
bill for yourselves. It does provide a way for illegals to become Guest Workers,
but only if they meet certain restrictions. The LDS Church's council is
reasonable and in line with doctrine. Do the work and find out yourselves. It's getting more and more difficult to be a reasonable Conservative.
Too much hate on both sides on the immigration issue. It just keeps getting more
and more brutal. Both sides fighting for power instead of whats best and right
for our country. I refuse to support either side on this issue because neither
side cares about America or the Constitution or our freedoms. They are all in it
for the greed and power. I have had enough!
In the Holy Land long ago, the mobs chanted "Crucify Him!" They
thought he was a traitor to the law, a traitor to his religion and/or a traitor
to the Zealot cause - depending on the part of the mob doing the hollering.They objected to him saying he could forgive sins and was the Son of
God. Or they objected to to his willingness to travel through Samaria ...and to
a thousand other things.Some of them objected to his failure to take
up the sword.Most of all, they were just a mob.Immigration is a tough issue. I applaud the Church of Jesus Christ for what
ever part it might have played in bringing the gospel of Jesus to bear on this
issue.Politically, I am not willing to leave the judgment of those
who so hate Latinos up solely to God.The mobsters who are yelling
and screaming "get rid of these people"... born right down this
Promised continent from ourselves...would clearly have been on the streets in
Jerusalem long ago....doing their mobster thing.They wouldn't have
liked what he was (or wasn't) doing then, He wouldn't like what they are doing
The anti-immigrant people are out of control. Their views and rhetoric
certainly don't resonate with me.If the anti-immigrants are upset by
the immigrants immigration status (i.e. the fact that they are illegal) then it
seems they would welcome hb116 because it will make them legal.I
think the real beef they have is they don't like Mexicans, which is a policy
that should not be endorsed by any party.Long Live HB116!!
Those who supported and lobbied for this bill have embarked on another
immigration misadventure. Yes, they got something done...but it was in a class
with detouring through Sacramento when your destination is Denver. It's like
going the wrong way fast. Without solving this problem the right way, we will
see voting demographics of this country shift so far to favor a Latin-type
agenda, in the next couple generations, that we'll never get it back. If that's
what we in this country want, so be it; but let's not get there by stubbing our
toe...and then looking up to see that the sky truly has fallen.
The lobbyists for illegal alien trespassers probably realize they've lost this
one.Its too bad it took 4 yrs. and essentially ruined the careers of
multiple politicians.All simply because Utah citizens requested the laws
be enforced!Gov. Herbert SHOULD have been acting in the best
interests of ACTUAL LEGAL Utah citizens.Instead he became convinced
by the various lobbying groups that he "wouldn't be asked to lunch"
anymore if he didn't kowtow to their cheap labor agenda.
Hilarious really that the right wing posters on this board are trying to blame
liberals. I am independent and proud, former republican too except I know think
for myself instead of voting automatically for the R like a zombie.This is not a liberal va conservative issue. This is a Lds church and
legislature issue. You all have no problem when the Lds church is involved in
other legilwtive issues but now you are upset? Were you right wingers upset
when the Lds church was involved in stopping gay marriage? Heck no you weren't.
Now you have a problem with the church in politics? I love being
in the Lds church but I also realize that if you live by the sword you die by
the sword. You cannot be ok with the church gettibg involved on one issue but
Beckham, Herod and the others are HYPOCRITS!!
Treason - "A Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign,
especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by
consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies."Give me a
break. Find a high-crime that they broke or a confidence that they violated, or
don't use the term. Confidence is not a assumed term. One must have signed a
contract, or stated a specific pledge, and then broke it. No contract
exists."Traitor" is something reserved for the most
cowardly of individuals and deserve the death penalty. Politicans deserve to
face the vote.
The extremist fringe of the Republican Party, just like the extremist fringe of
the Democratic Party, has caused more damage to the soul of our country than any
illegal alien group. To both groups: very soon your 15 minutes will be up.
For the most part what the Tea Party stands for I agree with, but there methods
are wrong. It is there way or the highway. What happened to working together for
the best possible solution. They are tearing apart the Republican
party which will only mean success for Independents and Democrats in the long
I think it would be more accurate to accuse them of being a traitor to the
the guest worker program is not an amnesty program. The problem is too big to
handle like some would like to deal with it, like round them up and deport them.
Remember China town, this was tried with less that reportable results. Yes we
need to secure our borders, but how we deal with them after they are here is
Calling people who honestly disagree "traitors," scapegoating a
hard-working racial underclass, these are the tell-tale signs of the classic
@Bearone:"I am sure HB116 is not perfect..."HB116 has but one flaw... if illegals were required to return to their native
countries and apply for work permits there... and require employers to see that
their workers return when the work is done, it would be a fairly good law. Sans
that, it stinks.
Yes, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a traitor if it worked
behind the scenes for passage of HB116 and has publicly expressed support for it
since. Illegals are lawbreakers which goes against the LDS Church's tenet to
"obey, honor, and sustain the law."
I'm with the traitors.
Anyone who gives jobs to people who don't have papers to be here legally IS a
traiter to the 100s of thousands of Utahns who are unemployed, and a traitor to
the taxpayers who are paying for medical, education, food stamps, utilities,
baby deliveries and other social services for illegal aliens.
@ DeltaFoxtrot | 8:35 a.m. July 21, 2011West Valley, UTShould
we laugh out loud right now or should we wait till funnier jokes are told.The GOP/TP-ers (contrary to your assertion) runs this state.Look at who "we've" voted into office of late: Jason Chaffetz and
Mike Lee!Have there EVER been to more rightist than these
fellows?Then we have this fellow who accuses his fellow(?)
Republicans of being "traitors?!"Oh, by the way, which
planet are you from?
"Bramble hinted afterward he was referring to The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints, which worked behind the scenes for passage of HB116 and has
publicly expressed support for it since."It would be nice if
the author had given more info about this "behind the scenes work".
Many would be very interested in knowing how the LDS Church works behind the
scenes to get legislation passed in Utah.
Yarrly-- The "Amnesty to end all Amnesties" gave amnesty to 3 million
illegals and now we have 20 million. That's FAILURE.
We already see the results of this policy, and it hasn't even gone into effect
yet. Utah is being invaded from the south... and if HB116 stands we WILL become
a second Mexico in short order.Those of you who are so proud of your
Pioneer heritage should ask yourselves, is that what you really want? It's what
your Church seems to want. Everybody knows they are the ones pulling all the
political strings in this state. Separation of Church and State exists here only
@lost in DC | 7:56 a.m. July 21, 2011West Jordan, UT You
assert, "That attempted solution failed." That statement,
I assert, requires (or at least suggests) a definition of "failure."
That, as they say, might just be a matter of "in the eye of the
beholder."Jumping to conclusions (as demonstrated irrefutably
by the last Republican dominated legislative session) is one of the more
prominent noxious symptoms of the malignant right.
No one in Utah politics, as good a guys and gals as they may be, ever does much
more than take a hard or soft party line. And RINOs are as close to an
opposition party as Utah gets! When people abdicate their individual duty to
this republic to be informed and then vote accordingly, we magically get Utah
politics. And we asked for it all. Brightness and passion are
great, but calling people "traitors" is indicative of what is wrong
with partisanship in modern politics. Our founders were bright and passionate,
but they didn't resort to name calling. A couple held duels, but that is
another topic entirely. They did engage in argumentation and debate while
managing to avoid making the serious issues of the day seem like a playground
fight. Folks, this is the epitome of modern politics. Instead of bright and
passionate, yet flawed men and women serving us, we end up with a certain degree
of self-righteous demagoguery that stifles the best ideas or subverts those so
that instead of real representative government, we get a mere shadow of what
might be. And we asked for it and then some.
juni4ling,you ask if Reagan was a traitor for his full-on amnesty. the
phrase, "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" comes
to mind.I think reagan was trying to find a solution. That
attempted solution failed. To try the same thing again expecting a different
result is the definition of insanity.
@ JBrady | 10:30 p.m. July 20, 2011Murray, Ut You ask:
"Then why was hb116 rushed through before public input could be
measured?"Let me ask a different question: Which party was
running the "rushed through" process you allege took place?The Republican/TP-run legislature is anything by contemplative, it is true,
but you can HARDLY accuse those left of them of "rushing" legislation
past the GOP/TP-ers.
It is a fact that no nation/state can maintain its sovereignty unless it has
control and maintains control of its borders.The legislators and the
executive have a duty (they are under oath) to see that the nation maintains its
borders and sovereignty. If they fail to do so, or act contrary to maintaining
our national borders they are truly traitors to their oath since they are
supporting the destruction of this nation by other nations.What is
the constitutionally specified penalty for traitors?
Go Man! Bramble hinted afterward he was referring to The Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which worked behind the scenes for passage
of HB116 and has publicly expressed support for it since.Above is
the reason it passed. These are not people who represent the voters but sheeple
who represent special interest!
If he was writing those words as comments to the DMN they would be denied. The
PC police would get him. Even I wouldn't call them traitors... misguided would
fit, and certainly 'opportunists' describes them. Why can't we just all get
along and enforce the law and immigrate legally?
Utah is number 2 in the nation for loss of blue collar jobs. 26% unemployment
rate for the young who usually work service jobs to get through school. Utah is
number one in growth of Illegal Immigrants. Our jails are full, our crime and
drugs being sold and cultivated is out of control. To top that off you have Utah
politicians not serving the people, but big business is flourishing in Utah
while the middle class pays for the benefits that big business does not pay.
This is all about selling out Utah Citizen's and siding with big business.
Traitor's? I think that fits these politician's perfectly. They have abandoned
the American Dream for Utah Citizens for their big business friends. I can't
wait until 2012. We need public servants not public TRAITORS of our system.
John Jacob etc. liberals who want their ideas of religious enforcement put on
the backs of lawmakers, Beck, Rush, etc. are bleeding heart people who look to
doing the same thing they accuse our lawmakers of doing, ie: enforcing their
ideas of Christianity through government control. Charity comes from individual
choice advocated by those in talk radio, not by governmental or political
mandate for political purposes. We have laws on our books which call for
enforcement Mr. John Jacob and party and the majority of our citicens believe
they should be enforced. this has nothing to do woth church matters. You folks who advocate law enforcement put some money behind the Arizona
request for buiding the fence on the border with private funds. The liberals in
control of our borders will leave them open otherwise. We are living in a
lawless society run by control freaks who would deny us our protection under the
law. I do not see this as a Tea Party or church kind of issue onto which to hang
blame. Neither does the church in question.
When it comes to Utah being 2nd in the nation for loss of jobs among blue collar
workers and a 26% unemployment rate for young adults in the service areas and
Utah being number 1in the nation for illegal immigrant growth, what else would
you call these politicians, servants of the people? These politicians are for
business and cheap labor and not for citizens. I can't think of a better word
for these not public servants. Traitors plain and simple is a great word for
these politicians. What are our public servants doing for those who can't find
work and are citizens? NOTHING, that's what NOTHING! There are legal means to
bring workers here if needed. Right now in this economy we don't need them and
can't afford to pay for their benefit packages that these businesses who hire
them don't pay for. Traitors? Oh yea !
Um folks, he is right the LDS and Christian churches did have their hands in
this,if you had followed the story on HB116 last year, Gov. Herbert and the
State Senators that were drafting this bill were in conference about this, and
it was the LDS that made the most stink in making sure that illegals could get a
easier shake on their getting work and other help in housing, and government
programs. Yes this is a legislature that is 90% LDS controlled, because most of
the Senators and Representatives are followers of the Mormon religion, and if
you are not a Mormon, you will not have proper Representation, if you drink,
smoke, smoke weed,freebase,have sex out of wedlock, generally those poor sap's
like ME, forget it, if you don't like it, tough, say welcome to your illegal
friends. HB116 is bad news, bad business. These lawmakers must be as blind as
lady justice, or influenced by the ACLU. When illegals crossed our border they
became federal fugitives, they are not supposed to be here, and by making a law
such as HB116 they are condoning, the breaking of laws, and the fiscal support
I am ashamed of the political correctness-manacled namby pambies who are
faulting Beckham for telling the truth. Based on what the pushers of HB116 have
in fact said, done, and attempted to do in the profoundly corrupt state of Utah,
and based on the common, standard, correct definition and usage of the term
"traitor" (does not necessarily mean someone trying to overthrow or
assassinate the sovereign), Beckham IS absolutely correct: the pushers of HB116
absolutely DO qualify as bona fide traitors.
When Arizona passed their law people called the traitors. I guess it depends on
which side of the fence you are on. HB 116 was a slap in the face to Utah's
workers, especially with the high unemployment. They are the ones who will
suffer with depressed wages. I'm shocked they would have the audacity to do it.
We can review our laws for years, but nothing will happen until we
start enforcing our laws. We have been invaded by 12-30 million foreign
nationals that have no respect for our country and it's people. The come for our
jobs and could care less how it affects us.
Most Utahns are with Bramble and Reid on this one. Beckham and friends may
throw big, loud tantrums about it, but that's no reason to give them what they
want. If they want extremist policies, let them move to Arizona or Alabama,
where people apparently go for that kind of thing.
It's against Federal law to encourage people to come here illegally. Our
legislature passed a bill that let people apply for guest worker status that
were not even in the country yet. They gave them until May 11. If
Arizona had done that, the Governor and part of the legislature would be in
prison. In 1986 Americans fought illegal immigration, we gave them
amnesty and were promised enforcement. In 19996 we had "reform" once
again to quiet the complaints, and were promised enforcement. Again in 2006 the
cries were loudly demanding enforcement. Recent? This is an on going problem.
Has been clear back during the depression. Only recently has it become more than
two or three million. It's grown to the point it needs to be fix. Amnesty (and
guest workers that broke are law are getting amnesty to stay here indefinitely)
doesn't solve the problem, it just makes it bigger. Where is the
money going to come from for administration/enforcement of our new guest worker
department? Cut medicaid more for the poor and elderly?
I am not really quite sure why the LDS Church should be involved in this
political issue. It was only a couple of months back when two LDS Branch
Presidents were detained by ICE as illegal immigrants. How they ever were put
into positions of leadership and trust with this type of issue hanging over them
still is questionable. It seems as though the LDS Church has a huge conflict in
their doctrine vs practice. Yes, we as a country do need to review our
immigration policies and laws. Until this process is complete, we should be
enforcing the laws. We need to put our house in order first and then make the
The Federal Government enticed all these immigrants to come...don't blame the
starving person for eating the cake placed before them!Blame the
congress and vote them all out, THEN deal compassionately with the
immigrants.Furthermore, be careful in judging the illegal immigrants
too harshly, only recently have you all found the fear and anger to blame all
our woes on the immigrants!From what I've seen lately around the
country in the guise of "white" kids who are destroying our nation,
look no further than your own parenting the past 30 years--if you want to see
the REAL problem with America...it isn't the Hispanics...its the Americans
taking all our freedoms for granted...Hispanics stand out, but so do the drugs,
tattoos, vulgarity and immorality of Americans...there is the root of the real
problem...not the illegals.
Traitors to what? The republican party? There is no pledge to a party (even
though some think there is). Traitor because you disagree with an elected
official? So what? Who cares?If you disagree with an official,
don't vote for them. Buy ads saying stupid things. It is your right, but don't
use the term "traitors." unless you can prove that they broke a
specific law, or a specific part of the U.S. Constitution.There have
been real traitors to our great country, and you raise their status when you
compare them to politicians.
It's a subject that draws emotional responses. I remember Chief Burbank calling
those who want immigration enforcement Nazis. Are they traitors? Encouraging
12-20 million people to break our laws and "invade" this country could
be called that. I'll leave it for you to decide. "The governor
previously said any modifications to the current package of immigration bills
will need to be addressed in a deliberative process during the general
session," "Something as complex as immigration cannot and should not
be rushed"Then why was hb116 rushed through before public input
could be measured? With cuts sure to come to our poor and our
elderly, I hope we hear cries for compassion for them. I look forward to a
compact with the churches and Salt Lake Chamber favoring no cuts.
Brandon is right on every count. I hope every RINO involved in this traitorous
nonsense gets sent packing in the next election starting at the top with Herbert
and Shurtleff. They all need to go. We have thousands of unemployed Utahns who
need jobs and should not be spending one minute trying to make deals with those
who have no right whatsoever to even be here! Throw illegals out, don't seek to
reward them. What is wrong with you people?
This guy is obviously the product of right wing radio talk, the kind that teachs
people to be divisive and attack those they disagree with. How do I know? I
used to be a daily listener of Beck and Hannity until I realized I should follow
the teachings of Jesus Christ instead of the doctrines of men like radio talk
show hosts.This is the kind of behavior the General Authorities of
the LDS Church warns against.
"DN Subscriber | 8:05 p.m. July 20, 2011 Cottonwood Heights, UTI guess all the liberals up at the Capitol over the years are always on their
best Sunday behavior and respectful towards everyone. Or, do they just get a
pass because their agenda is closer to that of the media?"Gee,
correct me if I am wrong but this bill was passed by REPUBLICAN legislature with
a REPUBLICAN governor signing it.
Brandon is a little out-there sometimes, but he's a great guy, he's smart and
he's passionate. We need more like him! I think he's wrong on this issue, but
God bless him for speaking his mind making waves. That's really what America is
I think immigration laws need to be enforced... So does the LDS Church...But a humorous aside... Does the "Tea Party" think that Ronald
Reagan was a traitor for *his* full-on "amnesty" that *he* gave to
illegals when *he* was president of the US?Honestly, just curious...
?-?I don't think Reagan is a traitor, myself.And I think
that the existing laws of the land need to be enforced by the agencies that
enforce them, just like the LDS Church always says when they make official
statements on this issue... But state politicians can run in circles
on supposed solutions to the immigration crisis... And it is indeed a
crisis...But the issue is a Federal issue. It needs to be engaged at
the Federal level. States can run in circles on this issue... But it needs to be
engaged, and the borders need to be secured at the Fed level...
Calling people traitors for trying to come up with reasonable and balanced
solutions to a very complex and difficult problem does nothing but show a lack
of common decency in the name caller. We need to be able to discuss issues
reasonably in order to continue to move ahead in solving problems together. If
the only argument one has is to call those who disagree with one's position
traitors, then one's argument must be very weak indeed.
How desperately we need some balance in Utah politics!
I say "Amen" to "Say No to BO" That was a great post. It
definitely adds fuel to the fire and I do not appreciate Bramble's comments.
Quite frankly I am sick of the Tea Party hi jacking the GOP but to bring the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in as a bargaining chip is just
Off with their head....I have Spoken
What foolishness. Bramble hinting at the LDS Church involvement as though it
were a bargaining chip. The LDS position (issued as a POLITICAL statement)
should have no bearing on the governing of Utah. For Bramble to invoke the
Church only add fuel to the Gentile fire that Utah is run by the Church.What WAS Bramble thinking?
Okay, we have the media reporting on "over the top" comments from one
Republican.I guess all the liberals up at the Capitol over the years
are always on their best Sunday behavior and respectful towards everyone. Or,
do they just get a pass because their agenda is closer to that of the media?I would not classify the amnesty scheme supporters as
"traitors" but think that they have conclusively proven that they are
in favor of a "solution" that exacerbates the problem, not solves it.
And, they fail to grasp the seriousness of the illegal immigration problem.
Those grounds alone are justification for them to be challenged when they come
up for election again.The amnesty supporters are just wrong on this
issue. They may still be decent, honorable guys (or gals) but still wrong.
Too bad that people who are trying to find a workable solution to the problem
are called "traitors" by poorly informed people to are on ego
trips-excited to see their name in print and on tv.I am sure HB116
is not perfect, but at least these legislators were trying to lay the groundwork
to find something that could be the start of something workable.I
find it appalling that this "know-it-all" is so perfect in his
thinking that he has no problem in calling respectable men
"traitors".Sounds really christlike to me, but I am not
the ultimate judge--I'll leave that to a higher power.
About time some sense returned to the hill......Bramble and Reid are gone next
yr....repeal 116 and send the RINO's packing
Seperation of church and state. Isn't that in the constitution. Much easier to
follow and agree with the leaders in political matters than to think and
vote/decide on one's own volition.The efficancy IMO will never fail
to the covenants but it's getting so mixed up with politics. I hope this
Rhetoric aside, the Legislature ought to do away with the poorly thought out
amnesty for illegal aliens. It's a slap in the face to all the unemployed Utahns
that the Legislature prefers illegal alien workers to citizens.
Ah, civility of the Republican Party eating their own. I am so glad I am an
traitors? noMisguided and foolish, pandering to businesses that
want slave labor, and aiding liberals who want to expand their power base by
increasing the dependent underclass? yes to all four.
'Traitors', huh? If this is what the Tea Party has to offer to Republicans, I
want nothing to do with it.
One more reason to do away with the caucus system.