Illegal immigration bill repeal backer calls lawmakers who drafted it 'traitors' to Utah

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  • byu rugby Crystal Lake, IL
    July 25, 2011 7:45 a.m.

    Either we are a nation of laws or, we're not. Love and mercy are important but, they do not supplant justice. I don't personally hate illegal aliens. They are God's children. However, when they break the law coming here w/o documentation, they should be quickly and humainly deported.

    Illegals should not be accomidated and /or supported by our government or any organization within the United States. The LDS Church is WRONG to support illegal aliens. Offering full fellowship to them is a slap in the face to those of us who strive to obey the law and live honest lives.

    The Message the LDS Church is loudly broadcasting is blatently contrary to what they have claimed to teach and follow since the early 1800's.

  • Born in Bountiful Provo, Utah
    July 23, 2011 1:20 a.m.

    I don't know the backgrounds of the others mentioned in the article, but I do know that Stuart Reid served in our Army for 7 years. How many years of military service does the coward who called Mr. Reid a traitor serve? The traitors are those who would usurp the democratic process through fear and intimidation. These are tough times, but not so tough that we can't elect good men and women who are willing to make hard decisions and take action when our federal leaders are too preoccupied with making themselves look good to a non-existent party like the tea toddlers who cry and scream that theirs is the only way. Utah's solution to the immigration problem is a fair solution in a day when Washington will not act. Please do not follow the cowards whose put forth such slanderous comments as were made against Senator Reid.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    July 22, 2011 3:01 p.m.

    To "ksampow | 10:26 a.m." we already have a sensible, balanced immigration policy. The problem is that the border between the US and Mexico is not secure, so people that don't want to follow the process are able to cross into the US.

  • ksampow Farr West, Utah
    July 22, 2011 10:26 a.m.

    Trying to come up with a sensible, balnced immigration policy in the absence of federal action is not traitorous and is not amnesty. The federal government has really dropped the ball on this issue. We need to enforce our laws, but we can not pretend that it is affordable or even possible to deport more than a million people who are in this country illegally.
    AS for saying that these people have "no right" to be here, we didn't have any "right" to take the land away from the Native Americans (American Indians) or even the Hispanics that were here before the English.

  • New to Utah PAYSON, UT
    July 22, 2011 8:12 a.m.

    I moved to Utah from a very liberal state a few months ago. The most far left advocates were those supporting amnesty for illegals. Incidentally the state has high unemployment and massive debt. Becky Lockhart,Paul Mero,in recent opinion pieces continue to use extreme for those opposing HB116. I believe that a reasonable person,compassionate and caring could support repeal of HB116.The diversity and melting pot in Utah includes those from other states who move here. How is it fair to allow those illegally here to take jobs legal citizens deserve and need?

  • Gregg Weber SEATTLE, WA
    July 21, 2011 11:14 p.m.

    In connection with my last comment about a proper logical debate, I read this comment: "This never was a "guest worker" bill. It's an amnesty/sanctuary bill, designed and forced through by the powerful cheap-labor lobby." by JayTee 12:37 p.m. July 21, 2011.
    What, asking both sides, is the definition of "guest worker bill" and "amnesty/sanctuary bill"? Not having read it I would personally define a guest worker bill as allowing someone in to work with paperwork, like the carte de travail I had when I went on a mission to France. There is no crime committed. To me a amnesty/sanctuary bill is one that means that there was a crime committed. That the person has no penalty or punishment to pay for that crime and can take his/her place in line with those who went through the bureaucratic hoops rather than at the end after them. They can become citizens without knowing the Constitution and what it's original intent was. They are able to vote as a payment for this corruption. Being illegal they can't report crimes to the police by employers or others against them.

  • Hellooo Salt Lake City, UT
    July 21, 2011 8:45 p.m.

    This kind of labeling, "The package of bills lawmakers passed this year as a "Utah solution" to illegal immigration has drawn much criticism among far-right Republicans" is what leads most to see the media as bias way to the left. Exactly, how is any position on immigration appropriately labeled left or right let alone "far-right" or "far-right". There are major portions of the population of Utah that do not agree with Utah passing an knowingly unconstitutional law, with a waver request to over come the problems. Please, stop demagoguing and help with the discussion.

  • Gregg Weber SEATTLE, WA
    July 21, 2011 6:49 p.m.

    I just read a comment where someone called someone a traitor. The commenter said that it didn't need a response. I disagree.
    Generally rediculous points are rediculously easy to refute. There are exceptions.

    There are things that are needed for a good debate.
    Proper: Meaning with order and civility.
    Logical: Meaning using the rules of logic to show fallacies on all sides. I think a logic tree with questions and answers or possible answers is best.
    Debate: Meaning real questions and answers by everyone, including the audience, and with the record always available for inspection and additions as needed.
    Someone calls someone a traitor. They better be able to prove it.

  • RichardB Murray, UT
    July 21, 2011 6:38 p.m.

    @Freedom,

    Giving the bill a cut off days several months in the future, to accommodate those who had never lived here, was indeed a ploy to bring in more illegal help. There is no other way to look at it.

    Kind gentle Rep. Wright called American workers lazy.

    Nothing more than a ploy to destroy enforcement, and keep it the way it is now. We need to get rid of this, and to pass E-verify like Arizona. The Supreme court has ruled it constitution, it's time to act. The mayor of West Valley has already championed this move in his city. Let all the cities pass their own e-verify, if our state leaders refuse to.

  • CJ Murray, UT
    July 21, 2011 6:01 p.m.

    @ Really?

    I know a lot of people who have been displaced by illegals and a lot who can't compete with them in business because they (illegals) don't follow the laws of the state and don't pay taxes. When you come home from Shirley Temple land and open your eyes to the devastation illegal immigration is causing you might try looking up the word "compassion" and showing a little for your own countrymen who deserve it instead of lawbreaking criminals. I would like to know how many immigrants you are currently housing and how much money you contribute each month to support them. Illegals displace Americans every day, if you don't think so then you are very naive. The money earned by their illegal employment then goes out of the country. If you think this hasn't hurt the economy then you need to quit worrying about phony "compassion" and go get some common sense.

  • pianomom Orem, UT
    July 21, 2011 5:37 p.m.

    Civil discourse is so difficult!

  • hermounts Pleasanton, CA
    July 21, 2011 5:32 p.m.

    This story reminds me of what it says in the Book of Mormon about member of the church (!) persecuting those who did not believe according to their own pleasure.

  • Freedom Huntsville, UT
    July 21, 2011 4:57 p.m.

    @Fitness Freak

    To say or suggest that HB116 was a ploy to get more cheap labor into the state is the kind of statement that strips you of all credibility. I was there. I know what happened. I've spoken with the sponsors, the opponents, those on all sides. I just want you to know that you need to look for the real cause this was passed. You've missed the mark. I'm sure your opinion feeds your anger. It's sad because your anger is based on false information. That's truly a waste of time and energy.

    Rep. Wright is one of the kindest, gentlest men you'll ever meet. If you were open to it, willing to see past your assumptions, you might have had the privilege of knowing how this bill came about through Rep. Bramble and Rep. Wright. Can you at least give room to the fact that you might be wrong? There are amazing and beautiful experiences waiting on the other side of your anger.... that you've decided to hang on to.

    Go back and read my other post if you havn't already.

    Just remember, we WILL get what we ask for. Make sure it's good.

  • Howard Beal Provo, UT
    July 21, 2011 3:20 p.m.

    Traitors to Utah...LOL.

  • @Charles the greater outdoors, UT
    July 21, 2011 2:51 p.m.

    The simple fact about HB116 is that it is unlawful. Everyone at the Capitol acknowledges this fact. So, why was an unlawful bill passed? Sounds like Obamacare to me.

    RichardB: your post is spot on. Nice work!

  • Neanderthal Miami, Fla
    July 21, 2011 2:42 p.m.

    @Arm of Orion: Question that I hope you anti-illegal immigrants can tell me. What kind of law and penalty are assessed to the first time illegal immigrants?"

    Immediate deportation.

  • RichardB Murray, UT
    July 21, 2011 2:31 p.m.

    It would seem the article focuses on one persons description, and not on the fact that people are fighting for the few jobs available.

    HB116 will never get Federal approval, and if it goes into effect, it will be challenged in court. It will never see the light of day. What it will do is keep the illegal immigration problem in this state the way it was before.

    The package of bills were never meant to change things, but maintain the illegal workforce and assure that there is plenty of cheap labor to keep wages depressed, and unemployment high.

    Compassion is a two way street, those breaking our laws show a lack of it, including our business community that hires illegal aliens, and the people who passed this law.

    Notice that no state followed Utah's lead, but plenty followed Arizona.

  • @Charles the greater outdoors, UT
    July 21, 2011 2:23 p.m.

    JJJHS said, "This guy is obviously the product of right wing radio talk, the kind that teachs people to be divisive and attack those they disagree with. How do I know? I used to be a daily listener of Beck and Hannity until I realized I should follow the teachings of Jesus Christ instead of the doctrines of men like radio talk show hosts.

    This is the kind of behavior the General Authorities of the LDS Church warns against."

    Sir, your daily rants and raves as an "independent" are no different than what you claim this man is doing. The hate and vitriol that oozes from your posts is astounding. To claim that you are following the Savior in your endeavors is laughable.

    And let me remind you it was your Dear Leader who told his followers to get in the faces of their neighbors and then the over-the-top statement of telling them to bring a gun to a knife fight.

    You sound exactly like every host on PMSNBC, including the departed Olbermann and Shuster.

    Please spare us your sanctimony and comment on the issue. Follow your mothers advice and don't say anything at all!

  • No One Of Consequence West Jordan, UT
    July 21, 2011 2:20 p.m.

    What do you call people who:
    - Pass a law that is in conflict with the US Constitution,
    - And encourages foreign nationals to unlawfully enter the United States,
    - And encourages foreign nationals to unlawfully enter Utah,
    - And tells the unemployed people of Utah they are out of work because they just won't work cheaply enough?

    Are we not adult enough to accept that inviting a foreign invasion is treasonous?

    Do we not understand that the Bill of Rights protects free speech because free speech is often offensive. Because the truth is sometimes ugly, sometimes we need to use ugly words to tell the truth.

    Compassion is a great idea. I don't know who among us is legal and who is illegal so I treat everyone kindly - they are all God's children.

    How about some kindness to our legal friends and neighbors? Quit inviting people to come here illegally. That's exploitation, not compassion.

    How about announcing, as they did in Arizona, that this is not the place for the undocumented. Close the door first and then we can discuss how to deal with those who are already here.

  • Arm of Orion Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 21, 2011 1:57 p.m.

    Qjuestion that I hope you anit-illelgal immigrants can tell me. What kind of law and penalty are assesed to the first time illegal immigrants?

  • Fitness Freak Salt Lake City, UT
    July 21, 2011 1:55 p.m.

    "Abeille"

    WHICH "i.d" do you suppose the illegal trespassers will show to "sign up"? Most of them have 3 or 4 sets.
    If you don't know who the lobbyists are for illegal trespassers, just check a few articles in the DN. You'll probably figure it out. They spend hundreds of thousands of dollars per year, if for no other reason than to guarantee yet ANOTHER year of inexpensive labor.
    Most LEGAL hispanics I know also care about their neighbors losing their jobs, and obeying the law. Illegal trespassers don't.

    Employers ARE subject to fines NOW for hiring illegal immigrants. Nobody enforces that. Why would law enforcement want a NEW law when they refuse to enforce the EXISTING law?

    HB116 is ludicrous on its face. Probably illegal too! The feds insist on having the right to NOT ARREST illegal immigrant trespassers. No one else.

    Thank you for your comments, but HB116 is just not logical and WILL be repealed. Utahs LEGAL citizens have had enough!

  • Really??? Kearns, UT
    July 21, 2011 1:54 p.m.

    How many of you complainers actually know somebody who lost a job to an illegal alien?

    How many of you complainers personally pay the $400 million dollars to educate the children of illegal aliens?

    How many of you complainers have actually made an attempt to get to know your neighbors who may be from a different country?

    How many of you complainers have heard of the word compassion?

    Yes, we do have some problems with illegal immigration. Yes, things need to change. I would just like to see this state that I love become more welcoming and tolerant of others.

  • CJ Murray, UT
    July 21, 2011 1:47 p.m.

    Abeille,

    Instead of sitting around reading bills that were hatched by Chamber of Commerce Republicans for their benefit and everyone else's detriment why don't you go out and see the devastation illegal immigrants are causing first hand for yourself?
    Talk to thousands of Utahns who are unemployed and can't find a job while illegal Mexicans take jobs they used to have and send the MONEY TO MEXICO.
    Talk to subcontractors and lawn service companies who have to compete with illegal Mexicans for every job and obey the tax laws while their illegal counterparts do not have to.
    Talk to police officers who can tell you that the largest distribution network for black tar heroin in the western U.S. is in SLC and is run primarily by illegal Mexican nationals.
    Talk to schools that are overrun with illegal kids who can't speak English.
    Finally, talk to hospitals that are drowning in red ink from providing free health care to illegals.
    HB116 is nothing but an attempt to make a deal with criminals who are breaking the law and people like you who support it are truly pathetic.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    July 21, 2011 1:44 p.m.

    'Is this the best that the GOP-TP has to offer in the way of solutions to a situation they do not like?' - Ronnie Bray | 12:50 p.m. July 21, 2011

    Typically.

    *'Trump on Obama's Birth Certificate: 'Maybe It Says He's a Muslim' - Fox Nation - 03/30/11

    *'During the June 6 edition of Fox News' America's Pulse, host E.D. Hill teased an upcoming discussion by saying, "A fist bump? A pound? A terrorist fist jab?'

    *'GOP official apologizes for Obama chimp email' - By GILLIAN FLACCUS - AP - 04/19/11
    'Calif. woman sends 'birther' message with photo of president's face on chimpanzee's body'

    *'Gays greatest threat to America, Buttars says' - By Aaron Falk - DSnews - 02/19/09

    *'Buttars used 'black baby' remark again, officials say' - By Rodger L. Hardy - DSNews - 07/05/08

    *'Sen. Orrin Hatch utters profanity about President Obama's health care reform' - By Jamshid Ghazi Askar - DSNews - 03/01/11

    *'Newt Gingrich Slammed For Saying Obama May Hold 'Kenyan, Anti-Colonial' Worldview' - By Sam Stien - Huffington Post - 11/12/10

  • Kami Bountiful, Utah
    July 21, 2011 1:30 p.m.

    It seems as though there is a lot of hot air in the direction of hating illegals. Perhaps people should channel that hot air and turn in every illegal they are aware of who works at their place of employment to the INS. Be something more than hot air if you are against this kind of thing. Stand for something. Do something about it.

  • RRB SLC, UT
    July 21, 2011 1:08 p.m.

    As it stands, the law is slated to go into affect in 2013 with or without Federal approval. It's unconstitutional. It interferes with the Supremacy clause of the constitution.

    Remember the Supremacy clause? That's the reason the pro-illegal folks told us that Arizona's law was unconstitutional. It would seem they jumped the fence and are now arguing the opposite position.

    Arizona's laws mirrored the Federal government, Utah supersedes them and gives more power to the state. Yes, it's unconstitutional without waivers. And the government will never give up the power of authority to Utah on immigration.

    Who is kidding who?

    It's only purpose is to supply cheap illegal labor to business.

    It gives unlimited amnesty to those here illegally by allowing them to stay. It also violates immigration and labor laws by allowing them to work at jobs Americans are able and willing to do.

    Is giving away Utah's jobs a traitorous act? I leave it to the individual to decide that.

  • JayTee Sandy, UT
    July 21, 2011 12:59 p.m.

    This amnesty/sanctuary bill has to be the WORST piece of legislation to ever come out of our legislature, and is a total embarrassment to the State and the LDS Church. We have a serious problem here folks, and the cheap-labor lobby people aren't going to solve it for you; they're too concerned with their own bottom line. Too bad they duped the ecclesiastical people into thinking that this monstrosity has anything at all to do with "compassion" and "charity." It's a serious shame that politicians can complicate the obvious and encourage a conflagration of absurdity the way they've done with this bill.

  • Ronnie Bray Mesa, AZ
    July 21, 2011 12:50 p.m.

    When unsavoury epithets are employed in pace of reasoned argument and comment, then the epithet hurler has lost the argument and my interest.

    Is this the best that the GOP-TP has to offer in the way of solutions to a situation they do not like?

    Government by any party will never be perfect, but democracy is the best we can do until He whose right it is to rule and reign comes to take over.

  • Abeille West Haven, Utah
    July 21, 2011 12:45 p.m.

    Fitness Freak -

    Since you've read HB116 numerous times, you'll know most of the answers to your comments. But I'm willing to help:

    1. Since Employers are subject to fines for all illegals not in U-Verify, they will find it disadvantageous to hire illegals.
    2. Illegals who arrive here will not have a chance to work more than 30 days before they HAVE to sign up. Besides,
    3. The person must have worked or lived in Utah before May 10,2011. Therefore, 'MORE' Guest Workers will not be an issue (only applies to those here right now) and this will NOT attract more 'illegal trespassers' - they wouldn't be able to work here.
    4. Farmers and enforcement - Since I am not in law enforcement, I don't know how it will work. However, I agree with your statement: I put more faith in our law enforcement system than you do.
    5. I know of no 'illegal immigrant' lobby in the state of Utah. There are lobbies advocating for the rights of Hispanics, but I wouldn't call them an 'illegal immigrant' lobby.

    Since this is my fourth post, it's the last I can make on this subject. Please read HB116, everyone.

  • JayTee Sandy, UT
    July 21, 2011 12:37 p.m.

    This never was a "guest worker" bill. It's an amnesty/sanctuary bill, designed and forced through by the powerful cheap-labor lobby. It's time for the taxpayers and citizen workers of Utah to stand up tall and resist those who are willing to sell them down the river for reasons related to pure politics and greed.

  • Fitness Freak Salt Lake City, UT
    July 21, 2011 12:13 p.m.

    "Abeille" Sure I've read the bill NUMEROUS times.

    What makes you think illegals will even WANT to "sign up". I know illegals, they DON'T "sign up" for stuff. (unless its free stuff)

    What guarantees do you have that law enforcement will begin to arrest ALL THE TRESPASSERS who arrive here hoping to "blend in", but choose NOT TO "sign up".
    Maybe you have more faith in the "enforcement" component than I do.

    But I still wonder - why do we need MORE "guest workers" when our LEGAL citizens have such a high unemployment rate.

    Utahs "guest worker" bill was simply a ploy to attract even more illegal trespassers that we definitely DON'T NEED!

    BTW - why would a farmer go to the bother to hire a "guest worker" when he can just go to home center parking lots and hire the same guys for HALF what he would pay "guest workers"?

    The illegal immigrant lobby just hopes that the "guest worker" bill, (assuming its allowed to stand)will simply allow EVEN MORE illegal immigrants to "blend in" with the population and NOT be questioned.

  • suzyk#1 Mount Pleasant, UT
    July 21, 2011 11:57 a.m.

    To: Bryan - that is a very good point and question. Why are we, the citizens being put back to facilitate the illegals?. That is my question. There are many who do not have employment here in Utah(including my husband) and when they look at even the lower-paying jobs the Mexicans are being hired(illegally) and they don't seem to care about their citizens, who are legal. We live in a sad world and hopefully someone with clout and common-sense will be able to get this thing turned around and the Utah citizens will come first. We can only HOPE.

  • Abeille West Haven, Utah
    July 21, 2011 11:48 a.m.

    How many Utahns out there haven't read HB116, just like Fitness Freak? If Fitness Freak had read HB116, he/she would know that:

    1. the bill requires Employers to withhold both Federal and State taxes at the same level as legal residence - both income tax withholding and Social Security.
    2. the bill requires that Guest Workers have Health Care insurance.
    3. Employers must use E-Verify or U-Verify to verify all Guest Workers status.
    4. Employers are subject to the same minimum wage rules all Americans enjoy.
    5. Law Enforcement is required to inform Federal Agencies if an undocumented illegal alien is found.
    6. Employers are subject to fines for non-verification of Guest Worker Status.
    7. Guest Workers have no right to unemployment compensation.
    8. The Utah State Guest Worker program is substantially different, and has different aims, than the Federal Guest Worker program.

    Unfortunately, the only way Fitness Freak, or anyone else, would know this is if they go and read HB116 for yourself. Neither I nor many others who post on this board have a 'pro-illegal agenda'. Why don't you read the bill for yourself, instead of posting heresay?

  • Freedom Huntsville, UT
    July 21, 2011 11:47 a.m.

    I don't know what I'm more disappointed with the bickering, misinformed who continually make comments based on faulty information, or the fact that nothing is being done.

    First, No, nothing in the constitution states that religion can't influence legislative matters. What it states is that the US cannot adopt one religion and require all to belong to that religion.

    Second, HB116 is not unconstitutional. If it were enacted without waivers, then it would be unconstitutional. If waivers are granted, it becomes a US sanctioned program thus becoming constitutional.

    Third, complaints about illegal immigrants need to be grounded in documented fact before they can actually be useful.

    Forth, please don't believe everything you read or hear in the news.

    Fifth, battle of egos will never solve this issue. We need to come together and work this through.

    Sixth, stop name calling and assumptions. It doesn't help and it's rarely accurate.

    Seventh, a word of caution. Be careful how firmly you plant your feet. Tragic unintended consequences often go undiscovered until it's too late due to the blinders built by pride and arrogance.

    If only we could find a loving, gentle way through this mess...

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    July 21, 2011 11:46 a.m.

    The funny thing about the debat on HB116 is that the bill is dependant on the Federal Government granting Utah a waiver on immigration laws. If the federal government denies the waiver, the law means nothing.

    TO "bixby35 | 7:14 p.m" the constitution does not say anything about the separation of church and state.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    July 21, 2011 11:32 a.m.

    Republican vs. Tea Party!

    Fight to the (political) death!

  • Fitness Freak Salt Lake City, UT
    July 21, 2011 11:11 a.m.

    How many Utahns think its "o.k." for legal Utah residents to pay 400 million per year to illegal trespassers for their free education, welfare, healthcare, etc.?

    How many Utahns think its "o.k." that your neighbor lost his job due to an illegal immigrant working at one-half salary? (or less)

    How many Utahns understand that the federal govt. ALREADY has a "guest worker program"? BTW - THAT ONE isn't enforced much either.

    How many Utahns actually believe Utah law enforcement would enforce a "new" program when they won't enforce the OLD program?

    The DN editorial board has a decidedly pro-illegal agenda and its unfortunate that they took ONE comment to make their headline.

    But I thank them for at least reporting on the issue.

  • yarrlydarb Ogden, UT
    July 21, 2011 10:46 a.m.

    Yes, Led Zeppelin II, that'll go over like a ... oh, you heard that one.

    Sorry, but I'm not aware of much getting accomplished by those who sit on the fence.

    I, for one, cannot stand the stand (pardon the pun) that GOP/TP-ers take, but at least they drive me to do my best to counteract and correct their inane approach to the world's woes.

  • Abeille West Haven, Utah
    July 21, 2011 10:43 a.m.

    How many of you out there, willing to call our Representatives 'traitors', have ever read HB116? I'll bet there's no more than 1 or 2 of you out there that's actually read the bill. I have. If you haven't read the bill yourself, how can you have any good opinion of your own on the matter? Looks like wrz out of Miami, Florida has read it. How about all you living here in Utah? Are you willing to take the time to read it? For all those who adhere to the LDS faith, as I do: Why haven't you read it? Are you willing to say the council of our faith is wrong when you don't even know how this bill is written?

    This bill is not amnesty, as many of the 'Tea Party' adherents claim. Read the bill for yourselves. It does provide a way for illegals to become Guest Workers, but only if they meet certain restrictions. The LDS Church's council is reasonable and in line with doctrine. Do the work and find out yourselves.

    It's getting more and more difficult to be a reasonable Conservative.

  • Led Zeppelin II Bountiful, UT
    July 21, 2011 10:35 a.m.

    Too much hate on both sides on the immigration issue. It just keeps getting more and more brutal. Both sides fighting for power instead of whats best and right for our country. I refuse to support either side on this issue because neither side cares about America or the Constitution or our freedoms. They are all in it for the greed and power. I have had enough!

  • jimhale Eugene, OR
    July 21, 2011 10:34 a.m.

    In the Holy Land long ago, the mobs chanted "Crucify Him!" They thought he was a traitor to the law, a traitor to his religion and/or a traitor to the Zealot cause - depending on the part of the mob doing the hollering.

    They objected to him saying he could forgive sins and was the Son of God. Or they objected to to his willingness to travel through Samaria ...and to a thousand other things.

    Some of them objected to his failure to take up the sword.

    Most of all, they were just a mob.

    Immigration is a tough issue. I applaud the Church of Jesus Christ for what ever part it might have played in bringing the gospel of Jesus to bear on this issue.

    Politically, I am not willing to leave the judgment of those who so hate Latinos up solely to God.

    The mobsters who are yelling and screaming "get rid of these people"... born right down this Promised continent from ourselves...would clearly have been on the streets in Jerusalem long ago....doing their mobster thing.

    They wouldn't have liked what he was (or wasn't) doing then, He wouldn't like what they are doing now.

  • Andy Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 21, 2011 10:34 a.m.

    The anti-immigrant people are out of control. Their views and rhetoric certainly don't resonate with me.

    If the anti-immigrants are upset by the immigrants immigration status (i.e. the fact that they are illegal) then it seems they would welcome hb116 because it will make them legal.

    I think the real beef they have is they don't like Mexicans, which is a policy that should not be endorsed by any party.

    Long Live HB116!!

  • Brian Utley Freedom, IN
    July 21, 2011 10:23 a.m.

    Those who supported and lobbied for this bill have embarked on another immigration misadventure. Yes, they got something done...but it was in a class with detouring through Sacramento when your destination is Denver. It's like going the wrong way fast. Without solving this problem the right way, we will see voting demographics of this country shift so far to favor a Latin-type agenda, in the next couple generations, that we'll never get it back. If that's what we in this country want, so be it; but let's not get there by stubbing our toe...and then looking up to see that the sky truly has fallen.

  • Fitness Freak Salt Lake City, UT
    July 21, 2011 10:21 a.m.

    The lobbyists for illegal alien trespassers probably realize they've lost this one.
    Its too bad it took 4 yrs. and essentially ruined the careers of multiple politicians.
    All simply because Utah citizens requested the laws be enforced!

    Gov. Herbert SHOULD have been acting in the best interests of ACTUAL LEGAL Utah citizens.

    Instead he became convinced by the various lobbying groups that he "wouldn't be asked to lunch" anymore if he didn't kowtow to their cheap labor agenda.

  • JohnJacobJingleHeimerSchmidt Beverly Hills, CA
    July 21, 2011 10:19 a.m.

    Hilarious really that the right wing posters on this board are trying to blame liberals. I am independent and proud, former republican too except I know think for myself instead of voting automatically for the R like a zombie.

    This is not a liberal va conservative issue. This is a Lds church and legislature issue. You all have no problem when the Lds church is involved in other legilwtive issues but now you are upset? Were you right wingers upset when the Lds church was involved in stopping gay marriage? Heck no you weren't.

    Now you have a problem with the church in politics? I love being in the Lds church but I also realize that if you live by the sword you die by the sword. You cannot be ok with the church gettibg involved on one issue but mot another.

  • Christine Orem, UT
    July 21, 2011 10:18 a.m.

    Beckham, Herod and the others are HYPOCRITS!!

  • majmajor Layton, UT
    July 21, 2011 10:09 a.m.

    Treason - "A Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies."

    Give me a break. Find a high-crime that they broke or a confidence that they violated, or don't use the term. Confidence is not a assumed term. One must have signed a contract, or stated a specific pledge, and then broke it. No contract exists.

    "Traitor" is something reserved for the most cowardly of individuals and deserve the death penalty. Politicans deserve to face the vote.

  • EJM Herriman, UT
    July 21, 2011 9:52 a.m.

    The extremist fringe of the Republican Party, just like the extremist fringe of the Democratic Party, has caused more damage to the soul of our country than any illegal alien group. To both groups: very soon your 15 minutes will be up.

  • lehiaggie Lehi, UT
    July 21, 2011 9:41 a.m.

    For the most part what the Tea Party stands for I agree with, but there methods are wrong. It is there way or the highway. What happened to working together for the best possible solution.

    They are tearing apart the Republican party which will only mean success for Independents and Democrats in the long run.

  • Kami Bountiful, Utah
    July 21, 2011 9:40 a.m.

    I think it would be more accurate to accuse them of being a traitor to the United States.

  • whistle219 princeton, IN
    July 21, 2011 9:40 a.m.

    the guest worker program is not an amnesty program. The problem is too big to handle like some would like to deal with it, like round them up and deport them. Remember China town, this was tried with less that reportable results. Yes we need to secure our borders, but how we deal with them after they are here is differeant matter.

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    July 21, 2011 9:39 a.m.

    Calling people who honestly disagree "traitors," scapegoating a hard-working racial underclass, these are the tell-tale signs of the classic fascist mentality.

  • wrz Miami, Fla
    July 21, 2011 9:38 a.m.

    @Bearone:

    "I am sure HB116 is not perfect..."

    HB116 has but one flaw... if illegals were required to return to their native countries and apply for work permits there... and require employers to see that their workers return when the work is done, it would be a fairly good law. Sans that, it stinks.

  • Alfred Miami, Fla
    July 21, 2011 9:32 a.m.

    Yes, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a traitor if it worked behind the scenes for passage of HB116 and has publicly expressed support for it since. Illegals are lawbreakers which goes against the LDS Church's tenet to "obey, honor, and sustain the law."

  • Clinton King (Ephraim) Ephraim, UT
    July 21, 2011 9:28 a.m.

    I'm with the traitors.

  • BoomerJeff Saint George, UT
    July 21, 2011 9:19 a.m.

    Anyone who gives jobs to people who don't have papers to be here legally IS a traiter to the 100s of thousands of Utahns who are unemployed, and a traitor to the taxpayers who are paying for medical, education, food stamps, utilities, baby deliveries and other social services for illegal aliens.

  • yarrlydarb Ogden, UT
    July 21, 2011 9:12 a.m.

    @ DeltaFoxtrot | 8:35 a.m. July 21, 2011
    West Valley, UT

    Should we laugh out loud right now or should we wait till funnier jokes are told.

    The GOP/TP-ers (contrary to your assertion) runs this state.

    Look at who "we've" voted into office of late: Jason Chaffetz and Mike Lee!

    Have there EVER been to more rightist than these fellows?

    Then we have this fellow who accuses his fellow(?) Republicans of being "traitors?!"

    Oh, by the way, which planet are you from?

  • ClarkKent Bountiful, Utah
    July 21, 2011 8:59 a.m.

    "Bramble hinted afterward he was referring to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which worked behind the scenes for passage of HB116 and has publicly expressed support for it since."

    It would be nice if the author had given more info about this "behind the scenes work". Many would be very interested in knowing how the LDS Church works behind the scenes to get legislation passed in Utah.

  • tenx Santa Clara, UT
    July 21, 2011 8:58 a.m.

    Yarrly-- The "Amnesty to end all Amnesties" gave amnesty to 3 million illegals and now we have 20 million. That's FAILURE.

  • DeltaFoxtrot West Valley, UT
    July 21, 2011 8:35 a.m.

    We already see the results of this policy, and it hasn't even gone into effect yet. Utah is being invaded from the south... and if HB116 stands we WILL become a second Mexico in short order.

    Those of you who are so proud of your Pioneer heritage should ask yourselves, is that what you really want? It's what your Church seems to want. Everybody knows they are the ones pulling all the political strings in this state. Separation of Church and State exists here only in words.

  • yarrlydarb Ogden, UT
    July 21, 2011 8:32 a.m.

    @lost in DC | 7:56 a.m. July 21, 2011
    West Jordan, UT

    You assert, "That attempted solution failed."

    That statement, I assert, requires (or at least suggests) a definition of "failure." That, as they say, might just be a matter of "in the eye of the beholder."

    Jumping to conclusions (as demonstrated irrefutably by the last Republican dominated legislative session) is one of the more prominent noxious symptoms of the malignant right.

  • DBeck Eagle Mountain, UT
    July 21, 2011 8:22 a.m.

    No one in Utah politics, as good a guys and gals as they may be, ever does much more than take a hard or soft party line. And RINOs are as close to an opposition party as Utah gets! When people abdicate their individual duty to this republic to be informed and then vote accordingly, we magically get Utah politics. And we asked for it all.

    Brightness and passion are great, but calling people "traitors" is indicative of what is wrong with partisanship in modern politics. Our founders were bright and passionate, but they didn't resort to name calling. A couple held duels, but that is another topic entirely. They did engage in argumentation and debate while managing to avoid making the serious issues of the day seem like a playground fight. Folks, this is the epitome of modern politics. Instead of bright and passionate, yet flawed men and women serving us, we end up with a certain degree of self-righteous demagoguery that stifles the best ideas or subverts those so that instead of real representative government, we get a mere shadow of what might be. And we asked for it and then some.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    July 21, 2011 7:56 a.m.

    juni4ling,
    you ask if Reagan was a traitor for his full-on amnesty. the phrase, "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" comes to mind.

    I think reagan was trying to find a solution. That attempted solution failed. To try the same thing again expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.

  • yarrlydarb Ogden, UT
    July 21, 2011 7:42 a.m.

    @ JBrady | 10:30 p.m. July 20, 2011
    Murray, Ut

    You ask: "Then why was hb116 rushed through before public input could be measured?"

    Let me ask a different question: Which party was running the "rushed through" process you allege took place?

    The Republican/TP-run legislature is anything by contemplative, it is true, but you can HARDLY accuse those left of them of "rushing" legislation past the GOP/TP-ers.

  • Final_Word Salt Lake City, UT
    July 21, 2011 7:33 a.m.

    It is a fact that no nation/state can maintain its sovereignty unless it has control and maintains control of its borders.

    The legislators and the executive have a duty (they are under oath) to see that the nation maintains its borders and sovereignty. If they fail to do so, or act contrary to maintaining our national borders they are truly traitors to their oath since they are supporting the destruction of this nation by other nations.

    What is the constitutionally specified penalty for traitors?

  • mohokat Ogden, UT
    July 21, 2011 7:25 a.m.

    Go Man!

    Bramble hinted afterward he was referring to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which worked behind the scenes for passage of HB116 and has publicly expressed support for it since.

    Above is the reason it passed. These are not people who represent the voters but sheeple who represent special interest!

  • tenx Santa Clara, UT
    July 21, 2011 7:23 a.m.

    If he was writing those words as comments to the DMN they would be denied. The PC police would get him. Even I wouldn't call them traitors... misguided would fit, and certainly 'opportunists' describes them. Why can't we just all get along and enforce the law and immigrate legally?

  • danaslc Kearns, UT
    July 21, 2011 7:05 a.m.

    Utah is number 2 in the nation for loss of blue collar jobs. 26% unemployment rate for the young who usually work service jobs to get through school. Utah is number one in growth of Illegal Immigrants. Our jails are full, our crime and drugs being sold and cultivated is out of control. To top that off you have Utah politicians not serving the people, but big business is flourishing in Utah while the middle class pays for the benefits that big business does not pay. This is all about selling out Utah Citizen's and siding with big business. Traitor's? I think that fits these politician's perfectly. They have abandoned the American Dream for Utah Citizens for their big business friends. I can't wait until 2012. We need public servants not public TRAITORS of our system.

  • Elcapitan Ivins, UT
    July 21, 2011 7:02 a.m.

    John Jacob etc. liberals who want their ideas of religious enforcement put on the backs of lawmakers, Beck, Rush, etc. are bleeding heart people who look to doing the same thing they accuse our lawmakers of doing, ie: enforcing their ideas of Christianity through government control. Charity comes from individual choice advocated by those in talk radio, not by governmental or political mandate for political purposes. We have laws on our books which call for enforcement Mr. John Jacob and party and the majority of our citicens believe they should be enforced. this has nothing to do woth church matters.

    You folks who advocate law enforcement put some money behind the Arizona request for buiding the fence on the border with private funds. The liberals in control of our borders will leave them open otherwise. We are living in a lawless society run by control freaks who would deny us our protection under the law. I do not see this as a Tea Party or church kind of issue onto which to hang blame. Neither does the church in question.

  • danaslc Kearns, UT
    July 21, 2011 5:42 a.m.

    When it comes to Utah being 2nd in the nation for loss of jobs among blue collar workers and a 26% unemployment rate for young adults in the service areas and Utah being number 1in the nation for illegal immigrant growth, what else would you call these politicians, servants of the people? These politicians are for business and cheap labor and not for citizens. I can't think of a better word for these not public servants. Traitors plain and simple is a great word for these politicians. What are our public servants doing for those who can't find work and are citizens? NOTHING, that's what NOTHING! There are legal means to bring workers here if needed. Right now in this economy we don't need them and can't afford to pay for their benefit packages that these businesses who hire them don't pay for. Traitors? Oh yea !

  • botdriver Midvale, UT
    July 21, 2011 5:38 a.m.

    Um folks, he is right the LDS and Christian churches did have their hands in this,if you had followed the story on HB116 last year, Gov. Herbert and the State Senators that were drafting this bill were in conference about this, and it was the LDS that made the most stink in making sure that illegals could get a easier shake on their getting work and other help in housing, and government programs. Yes this is a legislature that is 90% LDS controlled, because most of the Senators and Representatives are followers of the Mormon religion, and if you are not a Mormon, you will not have proper Representation, if you drink, smoke, smoke weed,freebase,have sex out of wedlock, generally those poor sap's like ME, forget it, if you don't like it, tough, say welcome to your illegal friends. HB116 is bad news, bad business. These lawmakers must be as blind as lady justice, or influenced by the ACLU. When illegals crossed our border they became federal fugitives, they are not supposed to be here, and by making a law such as HB116 they are condoning, the breaking of laws, and the fiscal support of illegals.

  • anti-liar Salt Lake City, UT
    July 21, 2011 1:39 a.m.

    I am ashamed of the political correctness-manacled namby pambies who are faulting Beckham for telling the truth. Based on what the pushers of HB116 have in fact said, done, and attempted to do in the profoundly corrupt state of Utah, and based on the common, standard, correct definition and usage of the term "traitor" (does not necessarily mean someone trying to overthrow or assassinate the sovereign), Beckham IS absolutely correct: the pushers of HB116 absolutely DO qualify as bona fide traitors.

  • RRB SLC, UT
    July 21, 2011 1:29 a.m.

    When Arizona passed their law people called the traitors. I guess it depends on which side of the fence you are on. HB 116 was a slap in the face to Utah's workers, especially with the high unemployment. They are the ones who will suffer with depressed wages. I'm shocked they would have the audacity to do it.

    We can review our laws for years, but nothing will happen until we start enforcing our laws. We have been invaded by 12-30 million foreign nationals that have no respect for our country and it's people. The come for our jobs and could care less how it affects us.

  • On the other hand Spanish Fork, UT
    July 21, 2011 1:15 a.m.

    Most Utahns are with Bramble and Reid on this one. Beckham and friends may throw big, loud tantrums about it, but that's no reason to give them what they want. If they want extremist policies, let them move to Arizona or Alabama, where people apparently go for that kind of thing.

  • JBrady Murray, Ut
    July 20, 2011 11:50 p.m.

    It's against Federal law to encourage people to come here illegally. Our legislature passed a bill that let people apply for guest worker status that were not even in the country yet. They gave them until May 11.

    If Arizona had done that, the Governor and part of the legislature would be in prison.

    In 1986 Americans fought illegal immigration, we gave them amnesty and were promised enforcement. In 19996 we had "reform" once again to quiet the complaints, and were promised enforcement. Again in 2006 the cries were loudly demanding enforcement. Recent? This is an on going problem. Has been clear back during the depression. Only recently has it become more than two or three million. It's grown to the point it needs to be fix. Amnesty (and guest workers that broke are law are getting amnesty to stay here indefinitely) doesn't solve the problem, it just makes it bigger.

    Where is the money going to come from for administration/enforcement of our new guest worker department? Cut medicaid more for the poor and elderly?

  • The Deuce Livermore, CA
    July 20, 2011 11:12 p.m.

    I am not really quite sure why the LDS Church should be involved in this political issue. It was only a couple of months back when two LDS Branch Presidents were detained by ICE as illegal immigrants. How they ever were put into positions of leadership and trust with this type of issue hanging over them still is questionable. It seems as though the LDS Church has a huge conflict in their doctrine vs practice. Yes, we as a country do need to review our immigration policies and laws. Until this process is complete, we should be enforcing the laws. We need to put our house in order first and then make the needed corrections.

  • CWEB Orem, UT
    July 20, 2011 10:54 p.m.

    The Federal Government enticed all these immigrants to come...don't blame the starving person for eating the cake placed before them!

    Blame the congress and vote them all out, THEN deal compassionately with the immigrants.

    Furthermore, be careful in judging the illegal immigrants too harshly, only recently have you all found the fear and anger to blame all our woes on the immigrants!

    From what I've seen lately around the country in the guise of "white" kids who are destroying our nation, look no further than your own parenting the past 30 years--if you want to see the REAL problem with America...it isn't the Hispanics...its the Americans taking all our freedoms for granted...Hispanics stand out, but so do the drugs, tattoos, vulgarity and immorality of Americans...there is the root of the real problem...not the illegals.

  • majmajor Layton, UT
    July 20, 2011 10:33 p.m.

    Traitors to what? The republican party? There is no pledge to a party (even though some think there is). Traitor because you disagree with an elected official? So what? Who cares?

    If you disagree with an official, don't vote for them. Buy ads saying stupid things. It is your right, but don't use the term "traitors." unless you can prove that they broke a specific law, or a specific part of the U.S. Constitution.

    There have been real traitors to our great country, and you raise their status when you compare them to politicians.

  • JBrady Murray, Ut
    July 20, 2011 10:30 p.m.

    It's a subject that draws emotional responses. I remember Chief Burbank calling those who want immigration enforcement Nazis. Are they traitors? Encouraging 12-20 million people to break our laws and "invade" this country could be called that. I'll leave it for you to decide.

    "The governor previously said any modifications to the current package of immigration bills will need to be addressed in a deliberative process during the general session," "Something as complex as immigration cannot and should not be rushed"

    Then why was hb116 rushed through before public input could be measured?

    With cuts sure to come to our poor and our elderly, I hope we hear cries for compassion for them. I look forward to a compact with the churches and Salt Lake Chamber favoring no cuts.

  • CJ Murray, UT
    July 20, 2011 10:26 p.m.

    Brandon is right on every count. I hope every RINO involved in this traitorous nonsense gets sent packing in the next election starting at the top with Herbert and Shurtleff. They all need to go. We have thousands of unemployed Utahns who need jobs and should not be spending one minute trying to make deals with those who have no right whatsoever to even be here! Throw illegals out, don't seek to reward them. What is wrong with you people?

  • JohnJacobJingleHeimerSchmidt Beverly Hills, CA
    July 20, 2011 10:14 p.m.

    This guy is obviously the product of right wing radio talk, the kind that teachs people to be divisive and attack those they disagree with. How do I know? I used to be a daily listener of Beck and Hannity until I realized I should follow the teachings of Jesus Christ instead of the doctrines of men like radio talk show hosts.

    This is the kind of behavior the General Authorities of the LDS Church warns against.

  • JohnJacobJingleHeimerSchmidt Beverly Hills, CA
    July 20, 2011 9:44 p.m.

    "DN Subscriber | 8:05 p.m. July 20, 2011
    Cottonwood Heights, UT
    I guess all the liberals up at the Capitol over the years are always on their best Sunday behavior and respectful towards everyone. Or, do they just get a pass because their agenda is closer to that of the media?"

    Gee, correct me if I am wrong but this bill was passed by REPUBLICAN legislature with a REPUBLICAN governor signing it.

  • Daryl Acumen PLEASANT GROVE, UT
    July 20, 2011 9:43 p.m.

    Brandon is a little out-there sometimes, but he's a great guy, he's smart and he's passionate. We need more like him! I think he's wrong on this issue, but God bless him for speaking his mind making waves. That's really what America is all about.

  • juni4ling Somewhere in Colorado, CO
    July 20, 2011 9:19 p.m.

    I think immigration laws need to be enforced... So does the LDS Church...

    But a humorous aside... Does the "Tea Party" think that Ronald Reagan was a traitor for *his* full-on "amnesty" that *he* gave to illegals when *he* was president of the US?

    Honestly, just curious... ?-?

    I don't think Reagan is a traitor, myself.

    And I think that the existing laws of the land need to be enforced by the agencies that enforce them, just like the LDS Church always says when they make official statements on this issue...

    But state politicians can run in circles on supposed solutions to the immigration crisis... And it is indeed a crisis...

    But the issue is a Federal issue. It needs to be engaged at the Federal level. States can run in circles on this issue... But it needs to be engaged, and the borders need to be secured at the Fed level...

  • cowshed Provo, Utah
    July 20, 2011 9:17 p.m.

    Calling people traitors for trying to come up with reasonable and balanced solutions to a very complex and difficult problem does nothing but show a lack of common decency in the name caller. We need to be able to discuss issues reasonably in order to continue to move ahead in solving problems together. If the only argument one has is to call those who disagree with one's position traitors, then one's argument must be very weak indeed.

  • AllSeeingEye Salt Lake City, UT
    July 20, 2011 9:02 p.m.

    How desperately we need some balance in Utah politics!

  • JNA Layton, UT
    July 20, 2011 9:00 p.m.

    I say "Amen" to "Say No to BO" That was a great post. It definitely adds fuel to the fire and I do not appreciate Bramble's comments. Quite frankly I am sick of the Tea Party hi jacking the GOP but to bring the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in as a bargaining chip is just plain foolish.

  • Slushfund Roosevelt, UT
    July 20, 2011 8:23 p.m.

    Off with their head....I have Spoken

  • Say No to BO Mapleton, UT
    July 20, 2011 8:17 p.m.

    What foolishness. Bramble hinting at the LDS Church involvement as though it were a bargaining chip. The LDS position (issued as a POLITICAL statement) should have no bearing on the governing of Utah. For Bramble to invoke the Church only add fuel to the Gentile fire that Utah is run by the Church.
    What WAS Bramble thinking?

  • DN Subscriber Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 20, 2011 8:05 p.m.

    Okay, we have the media reporting on "over the top" comments from one Republican.

    I guess all the liberals up at the Capitol over the years are always on their best Sunday behavior and respectful towards everyone. Or, do they just get a pass because their agenda is closer to that of the media?

    I would not classify the amnesty scheme supporters as "traitors" but think that they have conclusively proven that they are in favor of a "solution" that exacerbates the problem, not solves it. And, they fail to grasp the seriousness of the illegal immigration problem. Those grounds alone are justification for them to be challenged when they come up for election again.

    The amnesty supporters are just wrong on this issue. They may still be decent, honorable guys (or gals) but still wrong.

  • Bearone Monroe, UT
    July 20, 2011 7:35 p.m.

    Too bad that people who are trying to find a workable solution to the problem are called "traitors" by poorly informed people to are on ego trips-excited to see their name in print and on tv.

    I am sure HB116 is not perfect, but at least these legislators were trying to lay the groundwork to find something that could be the start of something workable.

    I find it appalling that this "know-it-all" is so perfect in his thinking that he has no problem in calling respectable men "traitors".

    Sounds really christlike to me, but I am not the ultimate judge--I'll leave that to a higher power.

  • TRUTH Salt Lake City, UT
    July 20, 2011 7:24 p.m.

    About time some sense returned to the hill......Bramble and Reid are gone next yr....repeal 116 and send the RINO's packing

  • bixby35 BOUNTIFUL, UT
    July 20, 2011 7:14 p.m.

    Seperation of church and state. Isn't that in the constitution. Much easier to follow and agree with the leaders in political matters than to think and vote/decide on one's own volition.

    The efficancy IMO will never fail to the covenants but it's getting so mixed up with politics. I hope this changes soon.

  • Bryan Syracuse, UT
    July 20, 2011 7:05 p.m.

    Rhetoric aside, the Legislature ought to do away with the poorly thought out amnesty for illegal aliens. It's a slap in the face to all the unemployed Utahns that the Legislature prefers illegal alien workers to citizens.

  • JohnJacobJingleHeimerSchmidt Beverly Hills, CA
    July 20, 2011 6:46 p.m.

    Ah, civility of the Republican Party eating their own. I am so glad I am an independent now.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    July 20, 2011 6:11 p.m.

    traitors? no

    Misguided and foolish, pandering to businesses that want slave labor, and aiding liberals who want to expand their power base by increasing the dependent underclass? yes to all four.

  • Abeille West Haven, Utah
    July 20, 2011 6:00 p.m.

    'Traitors', huh? If this is what the Tea Party has to offer to Republicans, I want nothing to do with it.

  • EJM Herriman, UT
    July 20, 2011 5:57 p.m.

    One more reason to do away with the caucus system.