Comments about ‘Orson Scott Card: God's foreknowledge: This life shows who we are’

I like to think that the most important aspect of the Plan is that He gives us enough rope to hang ourselves - many times over - and most of us do. That's evidence of our folly, not His fallibility.

This line of reasoning makes the plan of Salvation arbitrary and inefficient. We want to "test" mankind to see who is worthy of Godhood, so I take up all of the possibilities of mortal experience and dole them out inordinately, so that the probabilities of certain experiences are geographically weighted according to time and space. Then I will judge men according to their hearts, and provide a rework loop (salvation for the dead) that will (re)process over 99% of humanity.

This doesn't score points for a God who is in control, and who ought to be trusted. Even Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie both understood the dillema inherent in Cards theory, to the point that they argued that ultimately anything but a completely omniscient God threatens to invalidate the Atonement. If God manages his work and glory in this way, he needs help.

God's foreknowledge,God uses things for his purposes or will,or Divine Concurrence. Example, You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives. Genesis 50:20 NIV. Or,
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate (proginosko *4267) to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified .(Romans 8:28-30 KJV)
* to have knowledge before hand, to foreknow, of those whom God elected(called) to salvation.

Mormon Cowboy right on. If God is robbed of his power to elect, He might as well take a vacation and go to an Ethiopian feast, since He is not much of a God at all. Martin Luther to Erasmus of Rotterdam.

Isn't it wonderful that the finite-man has the audacity to theorize on the infinite-God and judgements and conclusions. Now that is the mercy of God-the infinite. He says his purpose-to bring to pass the immortality (finite to infinite) and Eternal Life of man-(mortals). And, then the purpose of man "man is that he might have joy". He then directs us kindly and repeatedly as to those actions in the mortal life that will accomplish Eternal Life and joy. And, leaves it to us to choose such or something else, thereby His tender mercies to us are totally and completely just. And, He is Worthy of our worship and adoration for this Forever and Ever. Side point-try looking at the comment during the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon at the Temple as a transitional phrase in a long oratory. It changes the meaning and intent dramatically. Realizing as the Christ did that only after death, the resurrection, and asceending to Heaven was He able to place Himself with his Father as being Perfect.

And you would know, right, Mormoncowboy?

It seems to me your logic is just a bit, may I say, simplistic.

But the biggest problem, at the same time it's too omniscient for a mere mortal.

I'll choose the world that God created through His plan, if you don't mind.

Human logic is, like man's own behavior, too erratic, shallow, and unworkable in the whole scheme of things.

While I don't necessarily agree with Card's conclusions, I think that this article is a fantastic example of critical thinking.

In many aspects of life, we are presented with situations that seem paradoxical. It is often difficult but usually possible to find a way to reconcile the apparent contradictions to create a unified and consistent understanding of the matter. That sort of synthesis is what Card has attempted here.

For example (and sorry for the inherent controversy), there are an abundance of doctrinal statements indicating that homosexuality is wrong, and there are many admonitions to love everybody, including sinners. Somehow, disciples of Christ must reconcile these two principles, and I think that it is possible to do so in a way that is faithful to both standards.

I wish that more people would make the effort to perform this kind of reasoning. For that matter, I wish that I were more consistent at doing so, rather than requiring others to point out the many times that I neglect some important consideration.

Fiery Darts - It is hardly "critical thinking" you are calling for, but rather convenient rationalization. The distinction is in that critical thinking is an approach conflict that seeks to determine truth or fallacy. Convenient rationalization on the other hand is an attempt to force square pegs into round holes for the sole purpose of protecting a cherished world-view. Not because the world is demonstratably true, but because we are reluctant to risk losing our faith by subjecting it to true rigor and critical analysis. In other words, we look only for means of confirming or strengthing our faith (don't we always look for opportunities to "strengthen our testimonies", as we say in Mormonism), and never entertain the possibility that it is wrong or misplaced.

Yarrlydarb:

It's convenient to reconcile bad theology with "God's ways are higher than man's ways", only because it is a safe way to dodge accountability for theological absurdities.

Yarrlydarb,

This "God's Plan" you speak of. Where did you get that plan? Oh yes, that is right, a human. So it seems that the "plan" you speak of that you wish to follow is in fact, another human's plan.

The standard Big Bang model is supported overwhelmingly by the evidence. It says that everything came from nothing a finite amount of time ago, including time and space. Yet Mormonism still wants us to believe the antiquated atheist view of eternal matter. Without this view, their entire theological system falls apart.

The Mormon gods are material beings. If Big Bang cosmology is correct, then those gods did not exist before the singularity. Therefore, they could not have caused creation. They would have to arise from the material universe somehow. Then it would be inappropriate to speak of anything "supernatural" in the Mormon worldview, because even their gods are part of the "natural" realm. And how did these evolved beings (who used to be like us) gain the power to grant eternal life and to mold worlds? It all seems way to magical.

The Mormon's alternative is to continue accepting that the universe is eternal, and that there are infinitely many gods. But this goes against the Bible, science, and philosophy, and is just plain nonsense.

Mr. Card, I would recommend that you read the writings of William Lane Craig concerning how God interacts with time.

I think God does know the details of what will happen--from the Book of Mormon Nephi and Mormon both knew to make/include another set of plates. Obviously the Lord knew they would be needed to cover a specific situation with a young prophet. I don't think this hampers our agency though--just b/c he knows about it doesn't mean he's throwing the situation--a knowledgeable observer does not necessarily equate to an active participant.

I don't think that everything that happens is God's will. Leaving out the heinous things people do to each other (like child abuse)is that while he is perfect, we aren't. What we might consider good, worthy, pure and totally on the level probably doesn't even begin to approximate what the Lord's expectations and desires are. What we are happy to "settle" for (thinking it is really good) may not be God's will at all. For example--a beginning music student might be fine with and do well with a student horn but a master knows there is more and better. I don't think we are capable (or on the same plane) most of the time--hence the need for a Savior.

Actually brokenclay it neither goes against the Bible, science or philosphy. More and more science answers just enough questions to be able to ask more. We are only now beginning to understand that there is more to our universe than what has been transcribed in the Bible or the Book of Mormon. Yet, we know that the earth was created out of matter already there. That it took six creative periods to create the earth and probably this galaxy. However, there is more evidence that there was more than one God who created this earth. We do know that through the Bible, the Book of Mormon and modern day revelation that Christ was the creator of this Earth and did so at the direction of our Heavenly Father.

Further, yours and mormoncowboy only begin to even reach the beginning of this creation. To say the big bang is true is truly absurb. Every bit of man's knowledge has come through some type of inspiration but we have yet to even begin to dwelve into what actually transpired at the creation. To say we don't know is closer to the truth than saying we know.

Bill -

You seem to assume too much from me. "We don't currently" is exactly my opinion. I can actually with some of the foundational theology argued for by religious philosophers that the Big Bang ignores a causality. I'm even okay if we label this causality God, so long as that is a place holder/variable for an unknown. Where I disagree with general theology is in ignoring the gaps between the logical deduction of causality and comprehensive theology.

What does it matter if God knows what I am going to do, even down to the smallest detail? I don't know what I am going to do. If a teacher had a way of determining what grade a students will eventually receive in his algebra class, should the students just accept that grade and skip the class? You're not going to learn much algebra that way. In the same way, we have to have earth experience--we have to take the class, the ups and downs, the pain and sorrow and joys, and even the seeming injustices that are a part of this human existence. And God has carefully planned it so that if we strive to follow Him, then we will progress and grow and be better able to serve Him by being of service to our fellow man. I don't worry about God's foreknowledge. I'm just corncerned about staying faithful.

Ever since watching a certain movie years ago, I've liked the idea that we're all in a big computer simulation and God is the ultimate programmer. Without going too far down the rabbit hole, the idea is fascinating to me and probably not in conflict with Mormon cosmology (e.g., the purpose of the simulator is to be tested and/or gain experience and to progress). Let me be clear, I don't believe this is the case, but it's a good way to do some mental gymnastics as we try to explain our crazy world.

Brokenclay: I'm LDS and don't have a problem with the big bang theory. I might be wrong but as I understand it, Einstein changed from an athiest to a deist because the "big bang" and the resulting universe couldnt' have happened without a creator. He just didn't know what that creator was. The big bang doesn't say that the universe came from nothing, but it came from very small gob of something of almost infinite mass. Sorry for the unscientific language. If God created everything out of nothing, then God created evil. You can't get around it. This is not the LDS concept of God.

Your analysis of God's foreknowledge is spot on. God know his plan perfectly from beginning to end - He has perfect knowledge of his actions and is always motivated by perfect love and goodness ever seeking that which is best for us his children. However he does not know things that do not yet exist. He is a temporal being.

We are free agents and therefore free to chose good or evil and these choices are real; not predetermined. His response will be perfectly consistent with His plan.

Thanks!!