Dick Harmon: BYU, Utah Utes proved to be big dogs of MWC with numerous titles


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  • Utah'95 FPO, AE
    May 20, 2011 12:47 a.m.

    Riverton Cougar,

    Thank you for catching a mistake. BYU has long been one of the best accounting schools in the nation; they don't trail in accounting.

    I have read the methodology of the US News ranking of the National Universities ranking, but am uncertain of whether/how graduate programs are factored in. However, specific data is there that allows direct comparison of graduate programs to one another.

    You say, "I think it's fair to say that overall, BYU has the edge over Utah." You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and have the US News "National University rankings" to back you up on it. However, other rankings (Times Higher Education, QS World University Rankings, for example), obviously based on different methodologies, disagree.

    My original intent was to encourage people to consider that the Pac 10 recognized Utah as more "like-minded" than BYU. That doesn't mean they dislike Mormons - Washington just hired BYU-graduate, Utah school president to lead their school. They have always said "we value graduate education and research." By those criteria, Colorado and Utah were better candidates than BYU.

    Should we take them at their word, or should we assume they are lying?

  • Riverton Cougar Riverton, Utah
    May 19, 2011 4:48 p.m.

    "BYU outranks the other two only in business and accounting." ...
    "BYU trails both Utah and Colorado in education, engineering, biology, chemistry, computer science, psychology, sociology, clinical psychology, and accounting."

    My question is how can BYU lead in accounting and trail in accounting?

    Also, the tie for law school is only new this year. Last year BYU was up 3 or 4 spots. Also, Utah has 95 graduate programs compared to the 25 at BYU, so Utah is clearly more focused on graduate research, but for BYU's programs to be as good as they are is impressive. BYU is ranked in the top 10 for students who go on to get graduate degrees, indicating how well BYU prepares for that.

    I think it's fair to say that overall, BYU has the edge over Utah. After all, undergraduate research is the core for graduate research, and BYU does have some quality graduate programs. The US News report didn't specify that it was for undergraduate, did it? I recall a separate undergraduate ranking, done by regions rather than nationally.

  • TheSportsAuthority Arlington, VA
    May 19, 2011 11:06 a.m.


    That's a pretty impressive list of academic institutions.

  • Utah'95 FPO, AE
    May 19, 2011 10:19 a.m.


    I don't have any outright disagreements with anything you said. Having done all of my undergraduate work at BYU, I have no personal experience about the undergraduate experience at Utah.

    Not only is Utah more focused on graduate education and research than BYU, they are ranked higher in them. And Utah's world reputation is made up of more than just what they "purport" to be. As I mentioned above, US News and Times Higher Education rank them higher than BYU in the "world universities" categories. Please check it out.

    I agree, BYU and Utah have "very different missions." As a LDS, I appreciate BYU's unique mission, but am not surprised that many others don't understand it or appreciate it as much as I/we do. That is at least part of the reason that BYU may not "fit" in some conferences.

    As far as what you have said about student-athletes at BYU, I couldn't agree more. Like the service academies, Stanford, and a few others universities, BYU have been able to be competitive in the highest levels in athletics while not compromising academics.

    The NCAA needs more programs like BYU.

  • BlueCoug Orem, UT
    May 19, 2011 9:47 a.m.

    As far as academics and athletics relate, here's just a little peak behind the curtain that talk of BYU's academic excellence isn't just hype:

    PROVO, Utah (May 17, 2011) For the sixth-straight year, BYU mens basketball has received public recognition from the NCAA for earning an Academic Progress Rate (APR) score in the top 10 percent of all NCAA Division I mens basketball programs.

    The Cougars are just one of 10 mens basketball programs to receive recognition for its APR scores for six-straight seasons and the only school to reach the NCAA Tournament and receive public recognition in each of the last five seasons.

    The following is a list of the 10 NCAA Division I mens basketball programs to receive public recognition from the NCAA for a top 10 percent APR score for the last six seasons:

    Holy Cross
    North Carolina

  • BlueCoug Orem, UT
    May 19, 2011 9:41 a.m.


    The missions of the two universities are much different.

    I attended both BYU and Utah, but finished my degree at Utah.

    Utah focuses on research, and that's fine, but having experienced both, I found that generally the undergraduate classes at BYU were much more rigorous than I found at Utah.

    BYU has many graduate programs, but BYU's primary focus has always been their undergraduate programs. BYU isn't a Utah university, it's a world university for the LDS church.

    Utah purports to be a "world university" but in reality that only applies to their graduate programs. Over 90% of Utah's undergraduate students are from Utah and a significant portion of those students wouldn't have the ACT/GPA to be admitted to BYU even if they applied. (continued)

  • Utah'95 FPO, AE
    May 19, 2011 9:16 a.m.


    I am not the typical "Ute fan" that you are referring to. I never claimed that the Utes was superior to the Cougars in athletics. I have too much respect for the BYU athletic department for that, and the numbers in this article indicate otherwise.

    BYU: larger fanbase, larger draw at the stadium, draw more television sets, more well-rounded athletic program, and according to the US News, a more highly rated undergraduate univeristy.

    Utah: recently significantly improved football program, growing fanbase, better graduate and research university.

    I graduated from BYU, and attended on an academic scholarship BTW. I went to medical school at the U. I respect both schools, just have always been a loyal Utah fan.

    Regarding your question on academics:

    As a state school, Utah has a mandate to educate the residents of the State of Utah. You should notice that state schools usually have lower admission standards than respected private universities.

    BYU's admission GPA and ACT scores are higher, yet according to US News, Utah's academic reputation (look in the annual magazine) is equal to BYU's.

    BYU - harder to get into, but data suggests that BYU doesn't provide a better education.

  • phoenix Gilbert, AZ
    May 19, 2011 8:24 a.m.


    It's funny how Utah fans openly admit that Utah was invited to the PAC 12 primarily because of non-athletic factors, but then they tout Utah's invitation to the PAC 12 as proof of Utah's athletic superiority.

    That, more than anything, explains why ABC/ESPN didn't pick any Utah games for their PAC 12 coverage. They know their college football audience couldn't care less where Utah ranks in the world of academics.

    On the subject of academics, please explain how a university with such "high" academic standards, has such low ACT/SAT/GPA entrance requirements -- SIGNIFICANTLY lower than BYU's.

  • Utah'95 FPO, AE
    May 19, 2011 3:13 a.m.

    Continued from above:

    TimesHigher Education out of the UK ranks the worlds 200 best universities. Colorado is #67 and Utah is #83. BYU is unranked. In their top universities by region (North America) secton, Colorado is #44 and Utah is #51. BYU isn't named in the listing of 81 universities.

    Regarding research, the Center for Measuring University Research Performance (Top American Research Universities) gives Colorado a Top 25 ranking, and Utah is listed in the 26-50 section. BYU is not recognized by this group as a research university.

    Remember, when the Pac 10 schools voted on who to invite, the athletic directors and coaches didn't make the decision, the university presidents and chancelors did. It seems strange to me, but that's how the decision was made.

    For what it's worth, I have heard The Sweater Vest say "the Big 10 wants research universities" in person.

    So we are left with two choices: 1. Believe that these conferences actually mean what they say when it comes to criteria for joining them, whether we agree with their rules or not. 2. Label the Pac 10 "intolerant" and "bigots."

    I am personally uncomfortable using those those two labels.

  • Utah'95 FPO, AE
    May 19, 2011 2:42 a.m.

    Troll Hunter says, "The Conference of Champions" chose to show their intolerance and bigotry, and went with two lesser athlectic programs."

    First, let me say that of BYU, Colorado, and Utah, the Cougars would be the best ATHLETIC fit for the Pac 10. They have had strong programs in numerous sports for many years.

    But the Pac 10 has always said they would be looking at academics also when considering potential new members. BYU is a very solid undergraduate university, but it trails Utah and Colorado when it comes to graduate programs and research.

    BYU is #75, Colorado #86, and Utah #129 in the National Universities ranking of the US News and World Report. However, in their Graduate Schools rankings:

    BYU outranks the other two only in business and accounting.

    BYU ties Utah for the lead in law.

    BYU trails both Utah and Colorado in education, engineering, biology, chemistry, computer science, psychology, sociology, clinical psychology, and accounting.

    BYU is unranked or does not have graduate programs in medicine, earth sciences, mathematics, physics, economics, english, poly sci, or pharmacy.

    Interestingly, BYU is not ranked by USNews in their listing of World's 400 Best Univerisites - Colorado #169, and Utah #306.


  • PP Eagle Mountain, UT
    May 18, 2011 9:06 p.m.


    "Money and sound financial management have been helpful, but that money has come mostly from BYU boosters and fans."

    Not exactly true. When the school is subsidized to the extent it is by the church then it leaves a ton of room to take "donations" and put it towards athletics.

    Of course, no one really knows how church funds are used at BYU because they don't publish anything.
    Actually the church is very public with how much church money is spent on BYU athletics. Measured as a percentage of total fast ovverings, tithing and other church funds, plus the sum total of funds furnished by BYU from outside of the athletic department - is exactly 0.0%.

    The Church and BYU are very public in saying that the athletic department needs to be self supporting. That included the construction of the practice facility.

  • uteman1011 South Jordan, UT
    May 18, 2011 7:34 p.m.


    "Money and sound financial management have been helpful, but that money has come mostly from BYU boosters and fans."

    Not exactly true. When the school is subsidized to the extent it is by the church then it leaves a ton of room to take "donations" and put it towards athletics.

    Of course, no one really knows how church funds are used at BYU because they don't publish anything.

  • Sandpiper Air Salt Lake City, UT
    May 18, 2011 4:55 p.m.

    @ Veritas Your post is a classic. Thanks for the laugh.

  • Troll Hunter Cottonwood Heights, UT
    May 18, 2011 3:29 p.m.

    Have you notice something....

    Where is the uninformed comment from the one know as Hedgiehog?

    He can't respond with any comment right now because he is trying to pick himself up off the floor after fainting from the pure dominance of a Real Athletic Program.

    If the PAC 10.2 really wanted a Champion that brings it in all athletic areas the choice was BYU, but "The Conference of Champions" chose to show their intolerance and bigotry, and went with two lesser athlectic programs.

    I call it like I see it.

  • skywalker Palo Alto, CA
    May 18, 2011 2:59 p.m.


    "Money is the key at BYU..."

    Money and sound financial management have been helpful, but that money has come mostly from BYU boosters and fans.

    And, I hate to burst your bubble, but new information suggests that the PAC 12 television deal may not be nearly as lucrative in the first few years, as initially reported, and BYU's ESPN deal could be MUCH more lucrative than initial reports had assumed.

    It could be 2014 before Utah is generating more revenue than BYU.

  • uteman1011 South Jordan, UT
    May 18, 2011 1:46 p.m.

    "When you excel in all aspects of your athletic programs, it shows depth, consistency, tradition, coaching, recruiting, participation"... and an unlimited athletic budget. Money is the key at BYU, something the Utes haven't had as a state school. You'll see the Utes get pretty strong very quickly now that they have some funds to build with.

  • cougarjax Clinton, UT
    May 18, 2011 12:53 p.m.

    Looking back, ignoring fan rivalries, the Utah and BYU programs have had an allegiance to each other as they dealt with the voting members (some would say bottom feeders) of the MWC. It's been vindicating to watch the MWC crumble after the departure of Utah followed by BYU.

    BYU and Utah have a fun sibling rivalry. They hate each other, but no one else better mess with the other.

    So the MWC having gorged off the trough filled by the teams in Utah are now left to swill off Boise State, which I'm sure is looking elsewhere (behind the scenes of course).

    Ultimately, I think "the mtn" will turn into "the PAC12" and the MWC will go begging to local TV and an occasional ESPN game.

    Craig Thompson and his hair will quietly "retire" claiming a successful career building a great conference, ignoring the utter destruction he left behind.

  • Striker Omaha, NE
    May 18, 2011 12:27 p.m.

    You left out the 3 men's volleyball national championships, unless someone else mentioned it. If we are to include sports like gymnastics, you'd have to include the dancing of the Cougarettes and their multiple championships.

    Jealous U,
    You put utahcountyute in his place. If he thinks being a champion 4 times in a league with really only 3-4 good teams in any given year in football is good, he's in for huge surprise. He knows his school is not too competitive in other conference sports and is freaked out to learn of how the Liberal 12 are dang good (national champion good) in most of the "minor" sports. Your explanation/rationalization was perfect, so I'll let your comments resonate for other utes to read and dread the future of likely rarely getting a championship again.

  • mussingaround Palo Alto, CA
    May 18, 2011 11:59 a.m.

    Interesting Ufan.

    BYU's average record during the WAC era, almost 8-4, was better than all but 7 Utah seasons during the WAC era.

    It's no wonder Utah fans like to pretend that college football history began in the Urban/Kyle era and that everything before 2003 is "irrelevant".

    In reality, they only say that because Utah was irrelevant, or practically "non-existent" as one blogger put it.

  • Ufan Salt Lake City, UT
    May 18, 2011 11:40 a.m.


    "So, what is the data on the other 24 seasons (65%) (1962-1998)? As I recall, BYU's football program was practically non-existent before LaVelle Edwards arrived."

    BYU won as many WAC championships before LaVell became BYU's head coach as Utah did.

    Utah 1964
    BYU 1965

    Utah/BYU 1962-1998 (the WAC era) - close your eyes Utah fans, it isn't pretty

    15 wins - 0/0
    14 wins - 0/1
    13 wins - 0/1
    12 wins - 0/1
    11 wins - 0/4
    10 wins - 1/3
    9 wins -- 1/6
    8 wins -- 5/5
    7 wins -- 5/3
    6 wins -- 7/5
    5 wins -- 5/2
    4 wins -- 5/1
    3 wins -- 5/2
    2 wins -- 1/2
    1 wins -- 2/0
    0 wins -- 0/0

    winning seasons
    Utah 17 (45.9%)
    BYU 29 (78.4%)

    breakeven seasons
    Utah 4 (10.8%)
    BYU 1 (2.7%)

    losing seasons
    Utah 16 (43.2%)
    BYU 7 (18.9%)

    average season (W-L-T)
    Utah 5.4 - 5.6 - 0.1
    BYU 7.8 - 4.0 - 0.1

    Utah's last losing season was 1990 (4-7)
    BYU's last losing season was 1973 (5-6)

  • ExecutorIoh West Jordan, UT
    May 18, 2011 11:35 a.m.

    I don't think Utah even has a men's track and cross country team, let alone indoor track/CC version or field events. Isn't the Olympic sports the things the Pac.X really prides themselves on? Isn't that were Conference of Champions comes from?

  • Jealous U Alpine, UT
    May 18, 2011 10:50 a.m.



    In overall athletic program - absolutely!

    The Utes will quickly learn that football and basketball aren't the only sports considered "important" in the PAC 12.

    The PAC 12 dubbed themselves the "Conference of Championships" because of the championships won in ALL sports, not just football and basketball.

    Try telling Oregon that Track and Field is meaningless.

    Try telling UCLA that Volleyball is meaningless.

    Try telling the Arizona schools that baseball is meaningless.

    Try telling California that rugby is meaningless.

    Or Stanford, that minor sports in general are meaningless.

    The only reason Utah fans consider minor sports meaningless is because Utah has never been competitive in minor sports.

    Ironically, Utah fans beat their chests about their national championships in skiing, a collegiate sport that truely is meaningless for all but a handful of schools.

  • utahcountyute Cedar Hills, UT
    May 18, 2011 10:12 a.m.

    Nice to see all the usual suspects pounding their chests and sounding the alarm about the great track success byU has had over the years. lol

    So what, you had the MWC champion in women's pole vaulting every year. exciting

    It all comes down to Football and Basketball. byU has had one more MWC Basketball Championship at 5 and the Football programs are tied at 4 a piece. Dominance?

    On to the Pac 12!

  • factcheck Salt Lake City, UT
    May 18, 2011 9:36 a.m.

    The Ute fans should build a statue of Ron McBride. I am not going to go a far a say they were non-existent, prior to him, but without him coming in, ya'all would have 15-18K fans and be in the WAC or worse.

    By the way, I watched an ESPN show the other night. A 30 for 30 documentary on the "U". I turned it on to watch the dominance of the Utes. Much to my surprise it was about some other team in Florida that not only stole your hand slogan making the U, but they have the audacity to call themselves the U. What's next, is Michigan going to call Ohio State the team down south? Come on, lets be original.

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    May 18, 2011 9:35 a.m.


    "But, thirteen seasons (35%) in which the Utes won 4 or fewer games".

    So, what is the data on the other 24 seasons (65%) (1962-1998)? As I recall, BYU's football program was practically non-existent before LaVelle Edwards arrived.

  • royalblue Alpine, UT
    May 18, 2011 9:30 a.m.

    Up until 1994, Utah's football history was pretty mundane.

    Sure, the Utes dominated a couple of very weak conferences from the 1920's through the 1950's, but Utah's only real splash on the national scene was their Liberty Bowl winning team of 1964 that cracked the Top 20 in one poll at #14 in the Coaches Poll.

    1994 was a very good year for both BYU and Utah

    BYU(10-3) #18/#10
    Utah(10-2) #10/#8

    Ironically, even though both BYU and Utah finished in the Top 10 in 1994, neither of them won the WAC championship. That honor went to

    Colorado State(10-2) #16/#14

    Utah won the head-to-head matchup against BYU in one of those famous 31-34 games.

    Somehow though, even in Utah's best season in history (before 2004), the Utes managed to lose at New Mexico(5-7) 21-23.

    Utah won the Freedom Bowl 16-13 over Arizona(8-4), the Utes' first bowl win in 30 years.

    BYU won the Copper Bowl 31-6 over Oklahoma(6-6).

    1994 marked the first year that the BYU-Utah rivalry truly became competitive.

  • scenic view Baltimore, MD
    May 18, 2011 8:44 a.m.

    Saying the "Utah football program was practically non-existent" during the WAC era may be a bit of an overstatement, but it is safe to say the Utes were very mediocre, on par with New Mexico, CSU, and Wyoming, but better than UTEP.

  • Swoop Salt Lake City, UT
    May 18, 2011 8:32 a.m.


    Utah only had two seasons during the WAC era in which the Utes won 9+ games

    1994 10-2
    1964 9-2

    But, thirteen seasons (35%) in which the Utes won 4 or fewer games

    1990 4-7
    1991 4-8
    1986 2-9
    1977 3-8
    1976 3-8
    1975 1-10
    1974 1-10
    1971 3-8
    1968 3-7
    1967 4-7
    1966 3-7 (the year after their Liberty Bowl win)
    1963 4-6
    1962 4-5-1

  • TheSportsAuthority Arlington, VA
    May 18, 2011 8:05 a.m.

    "Please back your statement up with data and I mean go all the way back to about 1962 when the WAC was formed up to when the MWC was created."

    1962 to 1998 (The WAC era - 37 years)

    WAC Championships
    BYU 19
    Utah 2

    Top 25 Finishes (both polls)
    BYU 12
    Utah 1

    BYU 288-147-4 (66.1%)
    Utah 200-208-4 (49.0)%

    Bowl Games
    BYU 21
    Utah 5 (none between 1964 and 1992)

    National Championships
    BYU 1
    Utah 0

    National Individual Award Winners
    BYU 14 (including a Heisman)
    Utah 0

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    May 18, 2011 7:43 a.m.


    "whereas, during the WAC era, the Utah football program was practically non-existent."

    Please back your statement up with data and I mean go all the way back to about 1962 when the WAC was formed up to when the MWC was created. Most of us know about the Tom Lovat years which were horrible. The others I am a little fuzzy on. I do remember Utah went to the Liberty Bowl in 1964 and beat West Virginia when there were only a few bowl games and it truly meant something to go to a bowl game. I am looking forward to what you come up with.

  • TheSportsAuthority Arlington, VA
    May 17, 2011 10:17 p.m.


    Simple answer. The Big 12 decided not to expand when Nebraska and Colorado left the conference. Until that changes, BYU had two options:

    Stay with the MWC and continue being exiled to the MTN for several more years, where most of BYU's fanbase outside of Utah had only spotty access to BYU television coverage.


    Go independent and partner with ESPN and BYUtv to provide national television coverage for all of BYU's athletic programs.

    To BYU's credit, BYU took the bold step of going independent to give BYU's nationwide fanbase access to BYU sports.

    May 17, 2011 9:50 p.m.

    There is a question out here in the far west that keeps popping up. Why did BYU go independent? It seems to us that the logical step would hae been to petition the Big Twelve to join them since Nebraska left. BYU as an independent just seems so weak. If they are as good as they think, why not go and play Texas, Oklahoma, Okla. State, Kansas etc. or was it a little apprehension, thinking" Can we really compete against the big boys?" Just something to think about.

  • Rick for Truth Provo, UT
    May 17, 2011 9:21 p.m.

    You left out League and National Championships in Lacrosse, Men's Soccer, and Rugby that were won during this time frame, with teams participating from many of the other schools in the MWC.

  • Laser Iowa City, IA
    May 17, 2011 8:57 p.m.

    Threw a nice bone to Utah Harmon, nice job. BYU clearly dominated the MWC. Congrats to the Cougars.

  • TheSportsAuthority Arlington, VA
    May 17, 2011 8:57 p.m.

    It's understandable why Utah fans feel compelled to downplay the minor sports since to do otherwise would be to admit that BYU completely dominated the MWC, just like they did the WAC.

    The only difference is that Utah developed a pulse in football during the MWC era, whereas, during the WAC era, the Utah football program was practically non-existent.

    Utah will be completely over-matched in every minor sport in the PAC 12 except women's gymnastics, which only a few schools have, and skiing, in which NOBODY in the PAC 10 competed.

    Track and Field is HUGE in the PAC 12, and Utah doesn't even field a men's team.

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    May 17, 2011 8:47 p.m.

    Dee J,

    "I also wonder how much the 2002 Olympics gave the U's facilities a much needed boost."

    The Olympics paid the U to rent the Olympic Village during the games which the U paid for by issuing revenue bonds that are repaid by the rents paid. After the games the Village became student housing where the students pay the rent.

    The Olympics also paid the U about $6 million to rent RES for the opening and closing ceremonies. That sounds like a lot but remember the Olympics had full control over RES for about 6 months because of all the set up and tear down of the staging and the special olympics which followed the regular games. RES was rebuilt in 1999 with money from the Eccles family, other donors and revenue bonds which are repaid by ticket and concession sales. No state tax dollars were used.

    So, the Olympics really didn't provide the U all that much. Yes, the rental money was nice but the student housing and RES would have been built anyway.

  • Riverton Cougar Riverton, Utah
    May 17, 2011 8:32 p.m.

    "Re: Riverton Coug
    Speaking of comments with no foundation. Please tell us all where we can find these fan ranking polls."

    Check out Husker Locker blog (UN) Jan 17 2010, and Sporting News in an article named BYU as having the best stadium and best fans in the nation (old editions of Sporting News magazine are hard to get a hold of, but it's there).

  • SportsFan Orem, UT
    May 17, 2011 8:02 p.m.


    Skiing and Women's Gymnastics championship don't mean whole lot on the national sports scene.

    Try again.

  • jayelynn Provo, UT
    May 17, 2011 7:29 p.m.

    I forgot to add - I can name many track and field athletes! Do you ever watch the summer Olympics? Have you ever been to a track meet in Eugene, Oregon? Have you ever been to the USA championship track and field meet which every four years doubles as the Olympic trials? These meets are SOLD OUT far in advance. The atmosphere is electric. There are a lot of us out there who love track and field and we get tired of others claiming that "nobody" cares about these events simply because it is not of interest to them.

  • jayelynn Provo, UT
    May 17, 2011 7:25 p.m.

    Because track and field athletes (as well as other "minor" sport athletes) receive so little in the way of praise, fan base, media coverage, or as seen here respect; they are far above the average athlete in my book. They do what they do for the love of their sport. They know that they will not get much recognition. But. . . they do work hard, train hard, accomplish much, and excel. I realize that I am in the minority - but I find track and field very exciting. I am proud that BYU has continued to support this olympic sport when many other schools have dropped it. These athletes are really something else and I for one am a life-long fan.

  • Daveman Pleasant Grove, UT
    May 17, 2011 6:45 p.m.

    It was nice of Dick not to take a swipe at conference executive management... are you listening Craig Thompson? Mis-management of the conference has led ultimately to its star pupils leaving for greener patures. The MWC abomination known as a TV contract has essentially imploded the league. Someone's head needs to roll over that one.

  • wwookie Payson, UT
    May 17, 2011 6:38 p.m.

    BTW, Utah competes in 14 sports and BYU in 19.

  • JayDee West Jordan, UT
    May 17, 2011 4:57 p.m.

    Can we get real, forreal?

    You proclaim:

    "Here is largely what matters regarding the reality of national perceptions of fans about the RECENT athletic performance of these two schools: In the MWC, Utah and BYU are tied in the amount titles in Mens BB (7) and Mens FB (4)."

    National perceptions?! Really?! Recent athletic performance?! Really?!

    I thought it was something more like this:

    Utah FB--destroyed on national television three of their last four games with their lone win coming on a last-second blocked field goal over one of the worst BYU teams in decades.

    Utah BB--struggles to keep a coach and players while allowing its rivals' star to rain down 47 pts. in one of their worst home losses ever.

    BYU FB--despite one of its worst starts in decades the team manages to end the year on a high note with a resounding bowl win and returns nearly every talented offensive starter. This same team has enough national cache to sign exclusively with ESPN despite its bad season.

    BYU BB--Sweet Sixteen and the national player of the year's own show, Jimmermania.

    I'll take "Champion of the Conference."

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    May 17, 2011 4:54 p.m.


    Sorry again. See my post right above yours.

  • WA_Alum&Dad Marysville, WA
    May 17, 2011 4:38 p.m.

    @ D-hunter: I think you have the wrong guy. You make my points for me.

    I love that the Church and the Y foster, pay for, and expect the best, of its contractors, employees, and students. Competition is a legitimate way to achieve excellence.

    It's why after all these years I root for, give to, and encourage my kids to attend, the greatest university on the face of the planet: BYU (oh gee, was that arrogant to say?!!?)

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    May 17, 2011 4:38 p.m.

    Also sorry to WA_Alum&Dad

    My post should have been addressed to DEE J not you. I was going off memory and got the wrong person. The content of the post remains correct though.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    May 17, 2011 4:31 p.m.

    @Solomon who thinks he's wise

    Scoff if you want but it simply shows you don't know all of the facts. It is true that most of BYU's athletic facilities are paid for in large part with donations but they are not all paid for that way nor are they completely paid for that way. Once a budget is set for construction of a facility they then start to raise funds for the project. But the actual budget is set and construction is approved seperately from the fund raising effort. Facilities on campus, athletic and otherwise, are all built, upgraded and maintained as needed and this is done by an independent committee in charge of identifying and deciding what is needed.

    There is no chance BYU could have built the indoor practice facility and football/athletic facility on their standard athletic budget. That was 100 million dollars worth of construction. They raised a very large percentage of it and paid for the rest out of their building fund.

    Also when facilities need to be upgraded, which is often and expensive, it is paid for by the facilities maintenences funds. Those are university funds, not athletic dept. funds.

  • tdlawton Cottonwood Heights, UT
    May 17, 2011 4:29 p.m.

    Utah 20 NCAA team championships...

    BYU 9 NCAA team Championships...

    I am sure the Pac-12 will be glad to add the Utes numbers to their total (which is the highest of any NCAA Athletics Conference).

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    May 17, 2011 4:20 p.m.


    Can you name a facility, whether it is the basic wardhouse, a distribution warehouse, a temple or any other facility the LDS church has ever built that wasn't absolutely first class? Can you name a single facility the church owns that isn't maintained in a 1st class manner? Can you name an single facility the church owns that isn't consistently upgraded to contain the most modern and high tech capabilities needed?

    You can't. The LDS church does everything 1st class. Period. Right now in my particular line of work I am contracted with the LDS church for multiple projects and that includes at BYU as well as other church facilities. The materials they insist on using are absolutely top of the line, no cutting corners on slightly lesser materials to be "frugal" they insist on the absolute best stuff available and they pay to have the absolutely best stuff available. Everything used must be certified to match those specifications and they have any army of inspectors, architects, engineers, etc., that make sure they get exactly what they are asking for.

    There is nothing "frugal" about it unless quality equals frugality, which it does usually.

  • JayDee West Jordan, UT
    May 17, 2011 4:09 p.m.

    @ Ragnar

    I think myopia best describes your last comment regarding championship totals:

    "Everyone knows that nobody cares."

    You must be "everyone" and then again "nobody".

    Sixty plus comments about an article that sums up the dominance in a college athletic conference that the two major schools in this state have battled in for over a decade, and to make U feel better you conclude "everyone knows that nobody cares."

    You MUST be right.

  • WA_Alum&Dad Marysville, WA
    May 17, 2011 3:59 p.m.

    Lots of petty comparisions, as usual in the comments section. The bigger picture is that universities are not intended to be farm teams for professional sports, or substitutes for local fans who don't have a local professional team to root for. They are intended to be a place to develop excellence in the rising generation. Athletics is a legitimate facet of this, and attracting the best and brightest in academics and athletics is how universities excel. Alumni, friends, and sponsoring organizations--whether churches or governments--who work and donate to make this possible are serving our youth and by extension society, and deserve to take pride in their institutions & efforts. Pursuing and celebrating excellence in every worthy category is legitimate. Striving to be, and attract, the best is too.

    If all a school or their boosters care about are the sports that put fans in the seats, they are missing the whole point of having universities.

    In every endeavor, Go Cougars!

  • Dee J Portland, OR
    May 17, 2011 3:58 p.m.

    I can echo the comments about Olympic sports being a big deal in the PAC 10 - track and field is HUGE at Oregon. Steve Prefontaine is still a legend around here.

    Dutchman - your comments about the PAC 10 not having the appetite for another private university with deep pockets is an interesting angle I had not previously considered. U of O and OSU, along with the other public higer-ed institutes in Oregon, are woefully underfunded from a state government perspective. In Utah's case, it's pretty remarkable that, given their historical underfunding, they've been able to ascend to the PAC 10. I also wonder how much the 2002 Olympics gave the U's facilities a much needed boost.

    However, your quote from Duckhunter doesn't ring true to me: the LDS Church is famously frugal, and is not known for lavishing funds on anything. Anyone who has to deal regularly with a Ward budget knows this. Virtually every program at BYU, from the Business School to the School of Music and every other program, relies heavily on alumni contributions and big-time donor funding.

  • factcheck Salt Lake City, UT
    May 17, 2011 3:54 p.m.

    Love the comments about being equal in the 'Real' sports football and men's basketball. Sort of.... I know someone posted that with basketball regular and MWC tourney championships it is 7-7. Lets look closer. BYU has won 6 regular season titles, Utah 5 (3 of them in the first 4 years of the conference). Sure Utah has won the tourney 2 times and BYU only 1, but there was a rather large man in a red sweater that used to coach on the hill that said the Regular season was all that mattered. If you look at the final standings and average that out BYU finished in 2.5th place on the average. Utah 3.6.

    In football it is closer. Both with 4 titles. Using head to head for tie breakers on final standings:
    BYU average 2.5 and Utah 2.9
    BYU finished 7th in 02-03 and 4th in 03-04 (The BYU Dark years). The other 10 years they did not finish worse than 3rd. Utah 3 4th place finishes, a 5th and a 6th. 4 good years each and 2 bad years for BYU and 5 bad years for the utes.

  • Solomon the Wise Alpine, UT
    May 17, 2011 3:52 p.m.


    Seriously, you're using Duckhunter as your source? Get real.

    Every dime of money used to build BYU's athletic facilities and sports venues has come from Private donations.

  • PistonHonda Houston, TX
    May 17, 2011 3:02 p.m.

    @ whoever said this: "But I would rather win 1 CONFERENCE championship in football or basketball than 50 NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS in track and field. Most people would probably agree."

    I'm not quite sure what to make of your comment. you're right, generally people would much rather have success in sports like football and basketball. However, your comment (including the part not quoted above) generally shows how clueless Ute fans are entering the Pac. Rest assured, the Pac schools love their Olympic "minor" sports and take pride in them. This might be difficult for a Ute fan to understand, since these sports generally suck at Utah (except for gymnastics) if they even exist at Utah (i.e. Men's cross country, Track and field, etc). For most good athletic programs, winning a conference title is nice but not a huge deal.

    Your comment is well spoken by a fan whose school can't even relate to its future conference members regarding overall athletic success. Comments like this, on top of the fact that Utah blows at most sports, just cements how out of place your athletic program is in the "Conference of Champions."

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    May 17, 2011 2:56 p.m.


    According to Duckhunter you are absolutely wrong. Here is his quote again:

    "THE LDS CHURCH, which owns and sponsors BYU, pays for the facilities on campus. They insist on everything being top of the line and they pay to have it be top of the line. That includes ALL CAMPUS FACILITIES athletic or otherwise. yes they fund raise to help pay for them but that is all." 5-9-2011

    Seems pretty clear to me that any fund raising done falls short and the LDS Church steps in to fill the gap. Facilities like the Marriott Center, the indoor practice facility and others that can be used by the general student body other than just athletic teams are certainly funded by the LDS Church as the owner and operator of BYU.

    Fan base size has little to do with raising funds for major projects. It has more to do with the well heeled alums. There are only 22 universities with more billionaire alums than the U. The problem is the U is a $2.3 billion enterprise and only $251 million comes from the state of Utah. Much of the rest already comes from private donors.

  • fresnogirl Fresno, CA
    May 17, 2011 2:55 p.m.


    If your name is "thevoiceofreason" spelled backwards, does that mean your posts are also the opposite of reason?

    I actually liked your post -- I just couldn't resist!

  • nottyou Riverton, UT
    May 17, 2011 2:07 p.m.

    Utah will get pounded in the PAC12. Such is life.

  • skywalker Palo Alto, CA
    May 17, 2011 1:53 p.m.


    "Try asking the Utah legislature to fund any athletic facility at the U whether it will be used by all the students and faculty or not and they will laugh in your face. The athletic department at the U is self funded and self supporting. How nice it would be to have the flagship university of the State supported in the same manner as the LDS Church supports BYU."

    BYU's athletic facilities from the Marriott Center, to LaVell Edwards Stadium, to the indoor practice facility, to Legacy Hall and the new training facilities, were paid for ENTIRELY by private contributions from BYU alums other BYU supporters.

    BYU's athletic programs are paid for ENTIRELY through funds raised by the athletic department.

    There's absolutely no reason Utah couldn't do the same, except that Utah's fan base is MUCH smaller than BYU's. The fact that RES seats 20,000 less than LES is proof of that, and that's due mostly to the respective Utah fanbases of both schools. Add to that the MUCH, MUCH larger fanbase BYU has outside of Utah and it's no wonder BYU's facilities are much better than Utah's.

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    May 17, 2011 1:32 p.m.


    "BYU would have been much more competitive and a much better fit in the PAC when it comes to athletics."

    I think for the most part we are on the same page. It is hard to argue with your statement quoted above. It is how BYU gets to that competitive athletic advantage with all the great facilities that are built with support coming from the LDS Church that is an impediment for most state funded universities with the state schools in the PAC 12 being no exception. Even Chris Hill stated not too long ago that he is not going to use any of the eventual $21.8 million in annual TV revenue to go into debt to build facilities. He said he is going to use the money to increase support of existing teams and raise the salaries of the coaches, etc. I take this to mean that Chris is still going to take the time needed to build facilities with donated money as he always has. It took the U almost 25 years to build its own track facility because the state legislature wouldn't help fund one.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    May 17, 2011 1:12 p.m.

    Several of these guys have made a good point ragnar and that is that the "conference of champions" label is because of the minor sports, not because of football and basketball. Yes the pac10 has had success in football and basketball but no more than several other conferences and less than some others. The label is because of minor sports.

    So if utah is going to apply that label to themselves then they need to aknowledge the success of others in those minor sports as well as increase their own performance in those sports.

  • Ragnar Danneskjold Bountiful, UT
    May 17, 2011 1:11 p.m.

    Re:JayDee and steve84088

    You will never hear me incessantly talk about those sports. I saw some BYU fans discuss these lame sports constantly following the PAC 12 invite as a way of showing that they were more deserving (as if all of this conference reallignment didn't prove once and for all that football drives the whole process). Will moving to the PAC 12 make Utah Olympic sports overall better? Sure. Will I begin to care at that point? No. Congrats on all of those championships, but again, I guarantee that you will never bring up a specific track and field sport to your neighbor to brag and rub their nose in it. Why? Because everyone knows that nobody cares.

  • utesovertide Salt Lake City, UT
    May 17, 2011 1:10 p.m.


    The Pac 12 is the conference of champions because they help their teams get to that status. Utah hasn't even been a member of the conference yet, so of course we haven't been able to share in that. Give it a couple of years, when we can finally have and afford fully loaded secondary sports. That is why Pac 12 members are excited about the TV deal. Finally, we'll be able to put a few million toward sports that we had to backburner because we didn't have the resources.

    We get it. BYU is flush with cash and can do whatever they want. Good for them. Utah has been able to do some great things with fewer resources. Even "Homer" Harmon realizes that, and gave us some cred. That's why Utah fans are so excited about the Pac 12 thing. It isn't so much to do with BYU not getting a bid, as it is we will have more financial resources to compete in everything we want to compete in.

  • steve84088 Orem, UT
    May 17, 2011 12:36 p.m.


    But Utah proudly professes that they are joining the "Conference of Champions." Not been football or basketbal lately. You can't have it both ways!

  • nosaerfoecioveht NSL, UT
    May 17, 2011 12:11 p.m.

    LOL I love that we're all suddenly such passionate track and field / cross country fans! A great accomplishment for those programs no doubt, but are we really trying to rub noses in this? This is worse than talking trash about winning the Deseret First Duel.

  • forreal people Cottonwood Heights, UT
    May 17, 2011 12:00 p.m.

    Do all the MWC schools have all the sports BYU has championships for? I really don't know the full story, but I though Utah didnt have several of those sports that account for the 140 titles. If Utah has 40 titles and BYU has 140, and 100 of those 140 are in sports that Utah does not compete in, then I think 40-40 is the comparison. Im not saying those are the numbers, but you get my point.

    No matter which way anyone tries to spin anything, FANS fill college football stadiums, basketball arenas, and TV ratings because of BB & FB. You ever seen 60,000 fans at a BYU track meet?

    Here is largely what matters regarding the reality of national perceptions of fans about the RECENT athletic performance of these two schools: In the MWC, Utah and BYU are tied in the amount titles in Mens BB (7) and Mens FB (4).

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    May 17, 2011 11:54 a.m.

    As Duckhunter so candidly stated on May 9, 2011:

    "THE LDS CHURCH, which owns and sponsors BYU, pays for the facilities on campus. They insist on everything being top of the line and they pay to have it be top of the line. That includes ALL CAMPUS FACILITIES athletic or otherwise. yes they fund raise to help pay for them but that is all."

    Try asking the Utah legislature to fund any athletic facility at the U whether it will be used by all the students and faculty or not and they will laugh in your face. The athletic department at the U is self funded and self supporting. How nice it would be to have the flagship university of the State supported in the same manner as the LDS Church supports BYU.

    I don't believe the state funded schools in the MWC even tried to keep up with BYU at least facility wise. They just gave up. What Duckhunter wrote in terms of facilities is true and for that reason I believe most MWC schools were glad to see BYU go even if it does mean fewer fans showing up at their games.

  • Old Cougar Cottonwood Heights, UT
    May 17, 2011 11:48 a.m.

    Couldn't resist re-entering the fray when comments started to go from "major" to "minor" sports.

    No data are available on this conjecture, but I don't know if FB and BB players are the most skilled athletes. You hear about the blazing speed of a FB player who can run the 40 in 4.3 seconds. What about the BYU mile runner who can run those same 40 yards in about 5.4 seconds, but continue to do that for 1760 yards.
    Have you observed the skills of volleyball players, most of whom are taller than BB players and can definitely jump higher?
    Finally, did we all enjoy Utah and California play Rugby last weekend. Utah only had one loss to that point and played Cal evenly for a while. Now we all have the opportunity to go watch Cal play BYU for the national title next Saturday at Rio Tinto Stadium. (Talk about individual domination -- Cal has won 29 national titles in Rugby.) Are not Rugby and Soccer the two most popular sports in the World? Those sports would by a lot less expensive since no equipment is necessary and the games are played faster.

  • JayDee West Jordan, UT
    May 17, 2011 11:38 a.m.

    It seems many Utah fans want to have their cake and eat it to.

    Case in point

    For nearly a year we have heard the constant boasting that the Utes are going to the "Conference of Champions." Of course the PAC 10 had amazing programs that compete and win championships nationally. Most of this notoriety is based in the Olympic sports. Beyond USC football in the recent past, "Conference of Champions" wouldn't apply to the two high profile sports Ragnar suddenly insists on being his criteria. (And yes, I know all about UCLA's basketball domination back in the day.) So many U fans now find affinity as champions because they are joining a "Conference of Champions."

    Yet this article clearly distinguishes BYU as the "Champion of the Conference" (albeit MWC). With not only outstanding teams in Olympic sports, but also in football and basketball BYU's athletic program is clearly the class of the MWC.

    That being said, Utah, congratulations on your invitation. BYU, congratulations on your domination.

  • Kyle loves BYU/Jazz Provo, UT
    May 17, 2011 11:33 a.m.

    I've been to track and field too. Just thought I'd throw that out there because some one wanted to know.

    Also whoever threw out the fan ranking has to cite a source.

  • TJ Eagle Mountain, UT
    May 17, 2011 11:27 a.m.

    You make a good point and I did not think about the private school angle. The PAC private schools are both very liberal though are they not? I still believe there is some truth in BYU's conservatism playing a part. I do still stand by my statement that BYU would have been much more competitive and a much better fit in the PAC when it comes to athletics.

  • Ragnar Danneskjold Bountiful, UT
    May 17, 2011 11:19 a.m.

    Re: BlueCoug
    You obviously missed my point. I don't care about those sports, and few do. It isnt sour grapes. You may be right, Utah may never win a track and field championship in the PAC 12. But I would rather win 1 CONFERENCE championship in football or basketball than 50 NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS in track and field. Most people would probably agree.
    I don't brag about Ute gymnastics. They DO get people to show up though. I have no idea how many people attend a track and field meet. But I would bet a majority are family or friends and roomates.
    You have been, so maybe you can tell me what the numbers are like.
    And can you name a single athlete that competes in one of those sports that you don't know personally?
    Again, congrats on all of the championships. But, when I hear of a championships in anything other than BBall and Football, I think, "hey, that's cool". And never think about it again. 5 seconds spent on it.

  • Anonymous Infinity American Fork, UT
    May 17, 2011 10:55 a.m.

    How much did it cost per championship?

  • Veritas Aequitas Fruit Heights, UT
    May 17, 2011 10:55 a.m.

    Duckhunter | 9:16 a.m. May 17, 2011
    Highland, UT
    @steve w

    But on top of that during tcu's time in the mtn west conference they were still far behind BYU in overall athletic program success. Undoubtedly TCU was an excellent addition to the conference and did alot of great things. I personally hope BYU can continue to find ways to schedule TCU in multiple sports. But tcu was still far, far behind BYU overall. There is no other way to spin it.

    BYU and TCU are the only two MWC teams to win a NC, and have a player win the Heisman.

    I agree with Steve W. BYU and TCU will both be missed in the MWC.

  • Anonymous Infinity American Fork, UT
    May 17, 2011 10:53 a.m.

    BYU minor sports will probably struggle; but who knows. Title IX has decimated the men's sports such as wrestling, gymnastics, and others I won't mention. Dominating the MWC is basically a joke on the national stage. That is one major reason Utah and BYU have moved on.....MONEY and TV exposure dominate sports more and more. The information I would like to find out is what is the total cost at each and every college of sports, broken down by sport, and what is the total revenue to colleges by college, and what are the sources of funds coming to colleges, as well as the breakdown of salaries for coaches and academic professors, and administrators. It would be mindboggling. As well ast the breakdown at the high school level.

    And at the same time in all of this....we are being told that we are underspending for education at all levels. Are you kidding me?

  • BlueCoug Orem, UT
    May 17, 2011 10:47 a.m.

    Ragnar Danneskjold

    Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes from a fan who would be singing a different tune if the numbers were reversed. How often have we seen Utah fans bragging about their great women's gymnastics team - a minor, women's sport that nobody really cares about except for the few schools that excel in that sport.

    Olympic sports ARE a big deal in the PAC 12 and Utah won't be competitive for years, if ever.

    And yes, I've been to many BYU track and field meets.

  • Ragnar Danneskjold Bountiful, UT
    May 17, 2011 10:37 a.m.

    Re: Riverton Coug
    Speaking of comments with no foundation. Please tell us all where we can find these fan ranking polls.

  • Uteanymous Salt Lake City, Utah
    May 17, 2011 10:35 a.m.


    The gap would stay about the same if you included men's volleyball, which the MWC also does not sponsor. Except for football and basketball and women's gymnastics, Utah falls woefully short in it's support of Utah athletics - no men's teams in volleyball, track and field, or cross-country.

    The Utes will be like a little fish out of water in the PAC 12 where track and field is considered a "big time" minor sport.

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    May 17, 2011 10:34 a.m.


    "Chalk one up for the liberal schools voting to keep the conservative sunday school boys and their honor code out of the picture."

    Be careful. Many Catholic schools like the ones BYU will encounter in the WWC are pretty liberal places. Many teach distributive income and social justice concepts which are mostly foreign to BYU.

    In terms of why the PAC 10 did not invite BYU I believe it had to do more with BYU being a well heeled and thus well funded private university rather than just "conservative sunday school boys". The state funded PAC 10 schools already compete against two well funded private universities and they didn't want a third one joining the ranks. The anti Mormon thing is over played in my opinion. Michael Young, a Mormon, just got hired as the President of the University of Washington as a case in point.

  • Ragnar Danneskjold Bountiful, UT
    May 17, 2011 10:29 a.m.

    I understand that it is nice to brag about the total number of championships. But, let's get real here. There are only two sports that any significant percentage of people care about. Have any of you even attended a track & field event for BYU?
    I really do think it is nice for BYU that they have won all of those championships. But lets not act like anyone here is losing sleep over the fact that BYU beat Utah in the mile run or ballroom dancing.
    I guess this number gives you something to brag about, but when you talk to your friend at the water cooler. You don't say, "haha, our team has better javellin throwers than yours." Let's stop the chest pounding over sports that you couldn't name a single athlete who EVER competed in it at your school.

  • utesovertide Salt Lake City, UT
    May 17, 2011 10:17 a.m.

    @Felonious Monk

    Thank you for seeing things as they are. BYU is a great school and is to be reckoned with as a major contender. The Church's funding and wallet go a long way for the Cougs. If the legislature (and ultimately the taxpayer) would fund Utah's $2.5 Billion budget by more than 8% (they only contribute $240 million), maybe some of our private funders could contribute more to our athletic programs.

    Also, as Harmon points out, one of our winningest team's accomplishments are not counted in those stats because the MWC doesn't sponsor gymnastics. If you could count those championships and trophies, it would close the gap quite a bit. The amount of championships add up quick when your sports like gymnastics (Utah) and track and field (BYU) dominate, because they have multiple events and therefore multiple champions.

    Congrats to both BYU and Utah. I for one am glad we are no longer in the same conference as each other. Both schools will now have a better opportunity to distinguish themselves.

  • Riverton Cougar Riverton, Utah
    May 17, 2011 10:10 a.m.

    "To all too many BYU fans - Harmon asked, "will these two programs be missed?" I'm confident that BYU fans won't be."

    "But I'm sure the MWC fans won't miss the smug, arrogant fans that come with the excellent BYU squads."

    Polls have suggested that BYU fans were on the whole perhaps the best fan base in the conference-- they treat their visitors well and are respectful at sports events. On the other hand, Utah and Wyoming were ranked as having the worst fans in the conference. Your comments have no foundation and crumble under any pressure.

  • thebigsamoan Richmond, VA
    May 17, 2011 10:10 a.m.

    @Eddie Would Go: We all wish every fan would be nice, kind, and respectful all the time, but, we live in a real world. There's good and bad in everything, and it's no difference in sports team rivalries. There are a few "smug and arrogant fans" in every team, even at BYU. I don't think most of the comments you're referring to here are about "rubbing other people's noses in it" but rather to acknowledge their pride in their team's accomplishments. After being told over and over throughout the years by certain BYU haters that they can never compete with the big boys because they have no real athletes, that all they have are Sunday school boys, this article debunks that argument and expose it to be false. Truly numbers don't lie! Go Cougs! And good luck to the Utes too!

    @ Veritas: Ha!ha! I love the Trump analogy! You da Man!

  • forreal people Cottonwood Heights, UT
    May 17, 2011 9:58 a.m.

    BYU is excellent in all athletics. The stats in the story show this without a doubt. But can we, Ute fans and BYU fans, be a little honest with each other every once and a while?

    The story is not saying BYU football and BB dominated Utah or TCU did it? Or maybe you cant read. Remember what the pac12/big east invites are about and what is the most popular sport football.

    MWC championships FB: BYU&Utah 4 each. BB (including tourney and reg season champs) BYU&Utah 7 each. So conference championships in BB&FB- tied.
    Utah BB- final four, and a #1 draft pick. Utah FB-two undefeated seasons, two bcs blowouts, 1st overall draft pick, two top five final season rankings, most wins against bcs schools of any non bcs school in nation, most wins over ranked opponents of any non BCS school (BYU, not even close).

    Wow, all that amazing FB success for Utah doesnt count to BYU fans? I suppose if BYU somehow pulls off 2 undefeated seasons and 2 bcs wins in the next five years, ute fans shouldnt count that?

  • AZguy Phoenix, AZ
    May 17, 2011 9:55 a.m.

    Veritas Aequitas-made me laugh out loud.

    Steve W. - You are right on the money and I would even be interested in seeing the numbers of the last six years vs. BYU. That is no slap to the U. TCU is just that good. Kudos for the baseball hardware this week too. That is one sport I wish BYU had more luck in. That is one prime example of BYU not getting the top LDS talent. So many talented LDS players from CA and AZ go elsewhere.

    With this week, I wish rugby were an NCAA sport because BYU dominates all comers save Cal and they have another shot at them this week at Rio Tinto. If BYU were to add lacrosse, women's rugby, and water polo say, they could add more men's sports too like rugby and soccer and get them in the NCAA.

  • thebigsamoan Richmond, VA
    May 17, 2011 9:32 a.m.

    @ Steve W: Kudos to you bro! There's no denying the fact that TCU surely made it's presence known in the MWC since it joined and my hat's off to them. But to say that y'all ran Utah and BYU off is a bit of a stretch, don't ya think? When Utah got the ultimate invite to the Pac 10, BYU had no choice but to pursue what's in their own best interest, thus the move to independence. I regret not ever knowing what it could've been if the Utes had not gotten that invite. On the other hand, I'm elated that both schools have taken advantage of their opportunities to better and improve their own programs. I wish both schools much success in their respective situations, likewise with TCU in the Big East next year.

  • fresnogirl Fresno, CA
    May 17, 2011 9:26 a.m.

    Great article ... I kind of want to share this with a certain Fresno State fan I know....

    Go Cougars! GO Utes!

  • Felonious Monk Draper, UT
    May 17, 2011 9:23 a.m.

    I rarely comment on Utah/BYU articles because it's an exercise in futility and a waste of time, but I feel someone should point out the obvious: Utah is a state school, BYU is privately funded. Non BCS-conference state schools (and, often times, even those state schools in a BCS conference) have a tough time competing athletically against private institutions. The reason is usually two-fold: 1). the emphasis is legislatively mandated to rest on academics, which leads to 2). a smaller athletics budget.

    BYU's athletic budget is not known, but it's obvious (through facilities, etc) they spend a lot of cash on athletics. Their winning tradition shouldn't be a surprise, all things considered. Those who like to gripe about "taxpayers funding athletes" should applaud Utah for managing to compete on a comparative shoestring. Perspective is a handy thing to maintain while living one's life. I suggest we all keep that in mind.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    May 17, 2011 9:16 a.m.

    @steve w

    This is a Utah daily paper that caters to utah readers. If someone from ft. worth wants to get on and read it great, but I have never read a ft. worth paper. I couldn't even name on.

    But on top of that during tcu's time in the mtn west conference they were still far behind BYU in overall athletic program success. Undoubtedly TCU was an excellent addition to the conference and did alot of great things. I personally hope BYU can continue to find ways to schedule TCU in multiple sports. But tcu was still far, far behind BYU overall. There is no other way to spin it.

    Also I'm not so sure that BYU and TCU won't wind up in a conference together again some day. I don't think TCU looks at the Big East as a final resting spot and I don't know if BYU will be independent forever. I think both are prepared to stay in the positions they are now in but it seems to me both of the programs are simply to good to be left alone for very long but other conferences. We'll see.

  • Steve W. Fort Worth, TX
    May 17, 2011 8:42 a.m.

    TCU won its sixth straight MWC regular season baseball championship two days ago, Dick. What a homer you are! You barely mentioned what TCU has done in its six years in the league. I must be the only guy from Fort Worth who reads this paper or more people would be pointing out that TCU's rate of winning in the MWC over six years should be the real story here. Something must be in the water in Fort Worth for a school like TCU, with 8,000 kids and about a jillion other Texas schools competing for its talent, to pull the Veni, Vidi, Vici that it did on the Mountain West. I just feel guilty that we ran y'all off!

  • TJ Eagle Mountain, UT
    May 17, 2011 8:42 a.m.

    So according to the numbers BYU is three times the school Utah is athletically. Since they competed in the same conferences against the same teams this has to be a pretty good indicator of reality. BYU would have been much better fit competition wise for the PAC than Utah. Chalk one up for the liberal schools voting to keep the conservative sunday school boys and their honor code out of the picture. After all, how would it look to have them beating up on the favorite sons year after year.

  • Wayne Rout El Paso, TX
    May 17, 2011 8:41 a.m.

    A dozen years ago UTEP was left out of the MWC. With Utah, BYU and others no longer coming to town the program has struggled. Wyoming, Colorado State and most of the others will quickly come to realize how much they miss BYU and Utah. Attendance will drop, excitement will be missing...it will never be the same. Some of the fans will realize the impact that these two schools have had, but most will continue to be poor sports missing only their cute little signs and stunts. Eventually the hate and envy will be gone and nearly forgotten. There are still a few diehard bigots who remember past games with BYU, but the students have no memory of those days and most of the population is forgetting. They are almost ready to say how much they miss having BYU and Utah and what a great contribution these two schools had on their institution.

  • CG Orem, UT
    May 17, 2011 8:32 a.m.


    You are correct. It could be years before Utah wins another conference championship. The Red Rocks will have to carry Utah's championship aspirations. Except for football in the weak southern division this season, none of Utah's other teams will even be competitive.

    Does the PAC 12 even award a women's gymnastics conference championship?

  • Truth Machine Salt Lake City, UT
    May 17, 2011 8:22 a.m.

    Honor Code

    "..........it's going to be a long, long time before you'll have bragging rights again!!!"

    When have you ever had bragging rights?

  • TJ Eagle Mountain, UT
    May 17, 2011 8:19 a.m.

    @humble opinion: Nevada will be in the WAC next year along with Fresno.

    @Honor Code: Don't you think it is a little mean spirited to rub Utah's nose in the fact that it will be harder to win championships in the PAC? I am sure they will do their best. They will probably win one before Colorado does.

  • Old Cougar Cottonwood Heights, UT
    May 17, 2011 8:04 a.m.

    Riverton Cougar

    I have sensed that BYU has "totally dominated" the Mountain West Conference over the past 10 years (just as they did in their previous conference). With the thought of verification in mind I previously looked at the official MWC website results for each year of the past 10 and they include regular season championships as well as tournament championships.

    BYU - 13 12 9 11 8 15 9 11 9 10 = 107

    Utah - 2 3 7 7 6 3 2 7 1 2 = 40

    My comment congratulating the Utes was in retaliation to some Utah trolls who refer to me as "arrogant," "little brother," "sunday school boys," "jealous," etc, etc.

    Let's call it as it is - Utah was invited to join the PAC12 for other reasons than their athletic prowess. They leave the MWC in third place (in the last 5 years) just one championship before number 4 and in anyone's reckoning that equates to "middle of a mid-major conference."

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    May 17, 2011 7:47 a.m.

    byu will probably easily be the best independent ever. They can win even more independent things now.

  • bgl Santa Monica, CA
    May 17, 2011 7:03 a.m.

    Wow--how is it possible to have sour grapes about the fact that you've been really good in a conference? You'll have to ask a BYU fan.

  • Eddie Syracuse, UT
    May 17, 2011 6:29 a.m.

    Not too bad for a bunch of Sunday School kids!

  • yarrlydarb Ogden, UT
    May 17, 2011 6:25 a.m.

    "Who will be the dog with the loudest bark?" you ask.

    There'll be no barking in the MWC.

    It will all be whining and whimpering.

    And if Boise State wants to keep the status they've had as a football program the past number of years, they'll pack their bags in no more than a couple of seasons.

  • Honor Code Denver, Colorado
    May 17, 2011 5:46 a.m.

    Get the polish out..........it's going to be a long, long time before you'll have bragging rights again!!!

  • MichiganCoog Cottonwood Heights, UT
    May 17, 2011 4:54 a.m.

    Hedgie? Where art thou? I guess the evidence in the numbers is enough to establish no need for arguement here. Mormon Ute, hang onto that dream, but it all ends on September 10th in the LA Col. when USC introduces Jordan Wynn to the floor of the stadium looking at daisies. It'll be interesting to see if your Utes can pull it together to not get blown away the next week in Provo. Projected Southern division winners? Maybe, but Arizona and Arizona State will be licking their chops for some "Ute" as well.

    Good luck you're gonna need some...

  • Eddie Would Go FPO, AE
    May 17, 2011 1:42 a.m.


    Arrogant comment, but pretty clever....

  • Eddie Would Go FPO, AE
    May 17, 2011 1:38 a.m.

    To BYU athletes and coaches - Congratulations on your excellence. You clearly are the dominant program in the conference, winning three times as many titles as your closest competitor, and almost as many championships as the other 8 programs combined.

    To all too many BYU fans - Harmon asked, "will these two programs be missed?" I'm confident that BYU fans won't be.

    Thus far, half of the responses to this article were written by Cougar fans who are, yet again, rubbing other people's noses in it. So much for "acting like you've been there before" when you get into the endzone! The numbers speak for themselves, why do you feel compelled to put down your opponents?

    With BYU gone, there will be titles within reach of the remaining/incoming MWC schools. Conference money/attendance will decrease since the Cougars have a large, loyal following. But I'm sure the MWC fans won't miss the smug, arrogant fans that come with the excellent BYU squads.

    Utah will find it much harder to win titles in the Conference of Champions. BYU will be even more dominant in the WCC than they have been in the WAC and MWC.

  • cougarNV Las Vegas, NV
    May 17, 2011 1:30 a.m.

    We shall see what happens. I will predict that Utah will not win any more championships in the Pac 12 than they did in the MWC.

  • Veritas Aequitas Fruit Heights, UT
    May 17, 2011 1:06 a.m.

    "BYU and Utah leave the MWC with a combined 189 of trophies."

    And Donald Trump and I have a combined worth of 2.8 Billion...

  • Riverton Cougar Riverton, Utah
    May 17, 2011 12:11 a.m.

    Old Cougar,

    I don't think you are looking at both tournament and regular season championships. His numbers are right. Either way, to think that BYU almost has as many championships as the other 8 schools combined speaks volumes about BYU's athletic program.

  • Riverton Cougar Riverton, Utah
    May 16, 2011 11:57 p.m.

    To think that Air Force and Wyoming, with 2 championships each, were closer to catching up to the Utes than Utah was to catching up to BYU! No wonder everybody hated BYU-- they dominated, no doubt.

    We'll see just how under/over-rated the PAC is this next season. We know how good the Utes are. If the Utes win the south division (which is a possibility), it shows how overrated the PAC is (no disrespect to the U, it's just that it shouldn't be that easy in the first year). If they are buried, then people were right about Non-AQ teams. I think most likely the Utes will float in the middle for a little bit before becoming one of the more prominent teams.

  • Old Cougar Cottonwood Heights, UT
    May 16, 2011 11:54 p.m.

    Good article, but research is a little misleading.

    Utah has slipped into third place with the arrival of TCU since 2005-2006. Since that time, the Mountain West Website (Championships) lists TCU as having won 29 championships (will be 30 or 31 depending on the outcome of baseball) and Utah has won 21.

    Utah has had a couple of lean years during the last two - in 2009-2010 they won 1 (women's tennis) and in 2010-2011 they won 2, while BYU won 9 and 10 and TCU won 7 and 2 (3 or 4 with the outcome of baseball).

    In fact Utah is only one championship ahead of UNLV for 4th place.

    Congratulations, UTES, you are leaving a mid-major conference in the middle of the pack to go to the elite PAC12 where you will totally dominate.

  • In My Humble Opinion South Jordan, UT
    May 16, 2011 11:38 p.m.

    The MWC should be very interesting this year with Boise State, TCU and Nevada. After that, as true blue said, it is WAC 3.0.

    It will be interesting to see how the Utes do in basketball. Long history of success on the hill, and basketball players are gym rats, so other PAC schools won't have a weather advantage.

  • BYU DUDE Provo, UT
    May 16, 2011 11:29 p.m.

    Dick Harmon Great research the MWC is about to get decimated.

    BYUs overall Athletic program dominates Utah's. imagine if you lined up all of BYUs trophies end to end it almost

    matches all the other teams in the MWC combined.

    Someone in BYUs Athletic program is doing a lot of things right.

  • TrueBlue Orem, UT
    May 16, 2011 10:44 p.m.

    Congratulations Cougars! and Utes.

    The MWC will literally become the WAC 3.0 on July 1st.

    In the major sports, BYU and Utah started strong sharing the first MWC football championship, with BYU paving the way in 2001 for Utah to bust the BCS in 2004. Utah reached the pinacle of it's football history in 2008. Both teams now stand at a crossroads entering the PAC 12 and Independence.

    In basketball Utah started strong coming off their 1998 championship final run, had a couple of flashes of brilliance in 2004 and 2008, but otherwise faded into being only a shadow of their once stellar program. BYU made steady improvement throughout the MWC era, culminating in back-to-back 30-win seasons and Jimmermania. Next year will be a new beginning for both programs in the PAC 12 and the WCC. Decades old conference basketball rivalries will fade and new rivalries will be created.

    Both programs will now be judged much more on what they do on a national scale.

  • Mormon Ute Kaysville, UT
    May 16, 2011 10:20 p.m.

    Looking on the bright side for the Utes, at least Dick also agrees the Utes are favored to win their Division in PAC-12 football.

  • Bottom Line Draper, UT
    May 16, 2011 10:15 p.m.

    Why is Utah mentioned in this article? This is an insult to BYU who has triple the trophies of Utah. The article should state BYU dominates, Utah very competitive.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    May 16, 2011 9:40 p.m.

    Well BYU dominated the mwc, including utah in the domination is a bit of a stretch although they were a far, far, far, distant 2nd to BYU. When one school has just about 3 times as many championships as the next closest school, and almost as many championships as all of the other schools combined, then I would call that dominating.

  • WhatsInItForMe Orem, Utah
    May 16, 2011 8:52 p.m.

    If anyone was wondering why the MWC schools riled on BYU for leaving more than Utah, these stats tell why. What dominance BYU has had!

    That's also one of the reasons BYU is so highly respected nationally and why ESPN was so eager to help out BYU's independence in football.

    The MWC, equally because of the three schools it's losing and because of being stuck with the minuscule mtn network, will become an also-ran like C-USA. Pretty much what the MWC was before Utah got hot in football and TCU joined the league.

    I feel sorry for Boise State. They certainly did not end up with what they thought they were getting.

    The MWC lost the state of Utah, which will definitely affect the mtn network's bottom line. BYU and Utah carried their wallet for too long. Payin' the piper now!

  • Y4LYFE Lubbock, TX
    May 16, 2011 8:31 p.m.

    That was nice of Dick to include utah as part of dominating. BYU is 3 times that of second place, and utah does not have that same separation by a long shot. I'm going to go ahead and call BYU the lone dominant school in a conference that now clearly has reason to be relieved BYU is leaving.

  • CougFaninTX Frisco, TX
    May 16, 2011 8:31 p.m.

    BYU dominated the MWC like no other school has dominated their conference in the past decade. Very impressive that one school could be on top in so many sports for so long.

    With Utah, a distant second, also leaving the MWC; this league will turn into just another mid-major.

    With TCU leaving next year, all hope is extinguished for the conference to turn into an AQ. In football, the conference will consist of one very good WAC team (Boise State), three good WAC teams (that could not have competed consistently with the top three programs in the late MWC) and Air Force. The others will remain cellar dwellars.

  • sammyg Springville, UT
    May 16, 2011 8:24 p.m.

    "BYU has won 140 tournament- and regular-season championships in just over a decade. Utah is second with 49..."

    Can you say domination, legacy, storied program? Sums it up quite nicely don't you think?

    BYU is going to do quite well.

    If this trend continues, you can only imagine how the Utes are going to do in the Pac 10.2. I'm thinking 'little fish in big pond'.

  • Ted H. Midvale, UT
    May 16, 2011 8:19 p.m.

    Impressive numbers. Hopefully success continues for both.