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Comments about ‘Former Cougars find flaws in Deadspin story about BYU athletics’

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Published: Friday, April 15 2011 9:42 a.m. MDT

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Solomon the Wise
Alpine, UT

I M LDS 2

When you're finished laughing, read and apply: D&C 50:40

skywalker
Palo Alto, CA

If you were really the statistician you claim to be, LDS2, you'd be demonstrating your statistical expertise by addressing the obvious flaws in the Deadspin study, instead of getting into a spitting match with everyone who disagrees with you.

Unless, of course, by pointing out the flaws you would be undermining a study that supports your own personal biases.

I M LDS 2
Provo, UT

Solomon & skywalker,

I have simply used my statistical knowledge to point out the hypocrisy of Koke's and the vacuousness of your arguments.

I have not stated anything about my own personal beliefs one way or another.

Trying to attack me does not make your arguments any less hypocritical or vacuous.

Perhaps you should take a chill pill.

1Infidel
APO, AE

I think the issue about transferring credits has been misunderstood. For a player one semester short of graduation to transfer to another school at that point and hope to graduate from another school I believe is likely impossible. What school is going to present a diploma from their school with the student having only taken 3-5 classes there? I believe that you have to have a minumum number of credits from a school to apply for graduation.

Of course, the aggrieved should have thought about, or been man enough to acknowledge the consequences for what he for certain knew he was doing that was wrong. I understand his frustration, but for fault he only needs consult a mirror.

Uteanymous
Salt Lake City, Utah

Big words, hollow arguments LDS 2.

Why don't you address he real subject at hand, the questionable Deadspin study? A real statistician without a personal bias to protect should have a heyday attacking such a flawed study.

MiP
Iowa City, IA

SUMMARY
1) Dr. Smith has an axe to grind.
2) Mr. Harmon is an apologist.
3) Amare Stoudemire says don't go there.

Duckhunter | 7:29 p.m. April 15, 2011

"Can you show me where I referenced utah fans or ute supporters as a whole? No I specifically said the "ute trolls that are always on these blogs" which is a very specific set of individuals such as hedgehog..."

---
Haha, you make me laugh dude. Are you denying your hatred for Ute fans in general?

Having read your posts for a while now I can attest that you have many times, in past posts, clumped Ute fans together. True, you have on occasion hedged your remarks to seem like your are refering to individuals. But it would not be hard for me to get examples when you place Utah fans in a blantantly negative light. Two classic Duckhunter Modi Operandi are the use of "quotation marks" to decribe Ute fans (again, not singling out specific individuals) and the copious use of "LOL" at the end of your Ute smack talk.

No reason to pretend you're not a hater. You're their Hedgehog. And it's great.

I M LDS 2
Provo, UT

Uteanymous,

"Big words, hollow arguments LDS 2."??

Why the bullying tone? If the study is flawed, point out the flaws, but make sure you have your statistical ducks in a row. If you have studies and data that support contrary conclusions, tell us about them. But don't just pop off without any basis (data).

You know nothing of my "biases" whatsoever. Yet you continue to presume you do. That is exactly the hypocrisy I am calling out.

I do not have the data. Neither do you. Contrary to what Koke asserts, the FIRST rule of statistics is to make sure you know what data you do or do not have. Don't speculate beyond the data, especially when you don't have any!

And for this you get all huffy?

Doesn't make you look very good.

deductive reasoning
Arlington, VA

@LDS 2

"If the study is flawed, point out the flaws,..."

IF???

As a "statistician" you know the study is flawed based on obvious factors that the researcher chose not to consider; so either you're unwilling to point out the flaws for some personal reason, or you're not the "statistician" you purport to be.

Quit hiding beyond the "I don't have the data" excuse, but then attacking everybody who suggests an alternative conclusion.

For example, how many students in the study were expelled for crimes such as theft, assault, DUI, rape, and illegal drug use? Things that could have gotten them expelled from most schools and had nothing to do with race and are not unique to the BYU Honor Code.

Nothing in the study suggests that crimes were considered in evaluating alternate reasons for expulsion that had nothing to do with racial bias.

Cougars1
Bluffdale, UT

I M LDS 2, what data do you have that Uteanymous is using a bullying tone or that he is all huffy. He could be laughing as he is typing. So you need to follow what you say is the FIRST rule of statistics and make sure you know what data you do or do not have.

Just like inferring through the D&C that some of us are hypocrites. I would suggest that you do not have all of the data necessary to come to that kind of conclusion.

As for the Deadspin article, we know that his statistics are made up since BYU does not release that information, so we really have no way of knowing if he is correct.

I do like reading your posts. Makes me feel smart.

I M LDS 2
Provo, UT

Cougar1,

There is plenty of data in your post alone to conclude some people still think they are in elementary school.

Cest la vie. You all will continue to give the Church a bad name, and I will continue to make a good living with statistics.

Good luck to you all.

Cougars1
Bluffdale, UT

I M, Nice. That one even made me laugh. As far as giving the church a bad name, nice try. And way to throw that "income" of yours around, but nobody is impressed; especially those of us who are independently wealthy:-)

LOTR
Baltimore, MD

"I don't much worry whether or not you would hire me. I make over six figures doing statistics... Trying to attack me does not make your arguments any less hypocritical or vacuous... Why the bullying tone? There is plenty of data in your post alone to conclude some people still think they are in elementary school... And for this you get all huffy?"

The vacuous, circular logic of the wannabe statistician.

I M LDS 2
Provo, UT

Cougars1, LOTR, and others,

By all means, if you have valid arguments against my points, please share them. Your attacks on me are meaningless and only demonstrate your immaturity.

If your knowledge of statistics and science is superior to my own, and offer insights into this case, I implore you to share them with us. I really do make my living with statistics. It is a very good living. I have demonstrated my knowledge of statistics.

Please reciprocate. Demonstrate your superior knowledge of statistics, and apply it to this case.

Please?

We will wait for you...

Just the FAX
Olympus Cove, Utah

LDS 2

What insights have you offered into this case based on your "superior knowledge" of statistics and science?

To date, the ONLY thing you've done is nitpik other bloggers' comments. Maturity would seem to suggest using this as a teaching moment, instead attacking every blogger who disagrees with you.

If you're really such an expert in statistics, why don't you critique the study for us, pointing out BOTH the strengths and weaknesses of the study, and why other factors, besides race, weren't considered.

Since BYU doesn't release information to the public regarding how many student athletes have been displined because of Honor Code violations, how do we know that the data is even complete for the years studied?

Over 500 BYU athletic scholarships are awarded annually, with an average of only 3 to 4 student athletes being suspended per year (70 total since 1993). That seems awfully low considering how difficult everyone says it is to live the standards of the BYU Honor Code.

Enlighten us.

Solomon Levi
Alpine, UT

Just the FAX

Actually, BYU only has about 256 athletic scholarships to award each year, but considering walkons, club sports (like rugby), and sports like men's volleyball that only has 4 1/2 scholarships to share between 15 or more players, there are well over 300 student athletes at BYU. I wonder if all of them were included in the study.

I M LDS 2
Provo, UT

Just the FAX,

My original comment took Koke to task for claiming to be a "statistician" and, in virtue of that claimed "authority", doing a poor job of critiquing the Deadspin study on statistical grounds. I believe I effectively trumped Koke's claimed authority and showed that Koke's arguments were fallacious.

For instance, Koke argued the study had "sample" problems, but then claimed the study was about "the population". In research, we describe populations using "parameters", not "statistics". Statistics are, by definition, about samples, from which we infer characteristics of populations.

Why don't I "critique the study for [you]"?

Can you give me a reason why I should?

Shall I blindly and poorly defend BYU simply because I am LDS and BYU is LDS and my alma mater? That seems to be what most commenters are doing here. Talk about bias.

Given the constraints on accessibility to the Honor Code Office data, I am smart enough to realize few people are in a position to do a proper statistical analysis on this issue. Koke, you, and I all lack access to the data. Only an amateur would try to opine without access to the data.

Solomon the Wise
Alpine, UT

LDS 2

Nice dodge.

Isn't it curious how quick you were to criticize another blogger for his "poor" interpretation of statistics, but you are completely unwilling to criticize the author of the study.

"Given the constraints on accessibility to the Honor Code Office data, I am smart enough to realize few people are in a position to do a proper statistical analysis on this issue... Only an amateur would try to opine without access to the data."

Isn't that exactly what the author of this study did, opine on racial biases in enforcing the BYU Honor Code without access to complete data?

So why are you so unwilling to at least critique the study based on how the author's use of incomplete data could skew results and lead to erroneous conclusions?

Unless, of course, by so doing, you would be undermining your own personal biases.

Uteanymous
Salt Lake City, Utah

"Why don't I "critique the study for [you]"?

Can you give me a reason why I should?"

To prove that you're actually the statistician you claim to be...

and to prove that you're actually trying to be objective, and not just pushing your own agenda.

CordonBleu
Park City, UT

I M LDS 2

So why didn't you effectively trump Deadspin's claimed statistical authority and show why Deadspin's conclusions based on incomplete data could be seriously flawed?

truthlover
Milwaukee, WI

I know BYU also has an academic honesty policy which is part of but in substance different from a lot of the honor code. Maybe a restructuring of the honor code to separate the academic honesty part from the non-academic honor code/non-academic morality policy would help people avoid confusion. Other schools have academic honesty policies that some call their honor codes. Also, I don't think it's standard for other schools to have people sign the academic honesty policy. BYU's non-academic policy seems quite a bit different, but the academic part is of course the same, so a restructuring may help.

Let me be clear that I think BYU has a right to have what they call the honor code, and every school should have an academic honesty policy. But a little clarification might help BYU and might also help non-LDS prospective students to understand the differences between BYU and other universities.

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