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Comments about ‘Former Cougars find flaws in Deadspin story about BYU athletics’

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Published: Friday, April 15 2011 9:42 a.m. MDT

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Koke
Spanish Fork, UT

I M LDS 2,

Another point to my statistician colleague. You say that

"As a statistician, you should know you don't test differences between "populations". You test differences between samples and infer the characteristics of the populations. But you didn't even do that."

You are right, I didn't test differences between samples because you only use samples to make inferences when it is impractical to gather complete population statistics. In the case of this debate, we have complete population data, so sample taking and inference doesn't make sense.

By your argument, we should select a random sample of say 200 BYU athletes and measure for ethnicity and honor code violation to draw an inference about BYU racism. A silly exercise with a high error rate when you have the whole population data.

As an accomplished statistician, I'm sure you knew that but just forgot it for the moment.

Cougars1
Bluffdale, UT

I don't know about everyone else, but I would like to just sit back and watch the two statisticians go at it. Very thought provoking and informative. For the record, my money is on Koke.(Wait, I guess that would be an Honor Code violation. My bad.)

yarrlydarb
Ogden, UT

Their publication is exactly entitled for what they print. "DeadSpin"; it is dead news, and it's a spin on the truth.

Where's Stockton ???
Bowling Green, OH

@Winglish
A true pharasee thy self having just moved rocks & boulders to find the source of sifting sand that is is so easily swept up by prevailing currents and blowing in thy own face so that thou can curse the universe for blinding your eyes while you search so obsessively and diligently for the faults of those whom you freely choose to live among yourself. One does not have to travail far to find your sort. You stick out like sore thumbs.

Where's Stockton ???
Bowling Green, OH

@Moderate
Sorry Moderate. You have BYU confused with the University of Colorado who had coaching staff taking recruits to sex parties where it was also confirmed that there was a little more than just alchohol served at those parties. That allegation is so obviously borrowed that it lacks any credence or merit for comment. You could though, talk to the former Buffalo Head Coach at the time who now coaches in L.A. in the PAC 10. It's quite possible that some of the very people qouted in this rediculous smear piece of journalism were recruited by Colorado and reached a level of mind at those recruiting parties that they still get confused as to where and when those things did actually happen. Drop a few bucks and a little suggestion and it's amazing how suddenly the memory suddenly emerges and an implication without substance is so easily laid at anyones door who is being targeted. Sorry your line broke on that fishing cast and that you lost hook, line and sinker.

Honor Code
Denver, Colorado

Remember Black 14???? It destroyed Wyoming Football!!

Ldsfan
South Jordan, UT

I for one was happy when the church dropped the sports programs at BYU Idaho. It does little to build up the church. If BYU dropped sports, I would be fine. I see how members quarrel Over football talk and hardly talk to each other to the point where the BYU fans don't come to church after a loss so they don't have the hear it from their neighbors. Is this what the church teaches? It is simply sports. It is taken way too serious. Are our lives so boring that we have to live it through a bunch of young men and women? Drop sports at BYU.

Esquire
Springville, UT

The article was pretty negative, and obviously centered on some disgruntled athletes. But what about the merits? It is easy to just point your finger back and say they were disgruntled. How much is actually true, from a factual perspective rather than just attitude? Over the years, I have been aware of activities of the honor code crowd to know that they have their spies and they are aggressive in not just waiting for things to come to them, but hunting for violations. There is definitely uneven enforcement. There really seems to be a parallel with Islamic states like Iran with their religion police. I love BYU and it is still part of my life, but this does touch on the dark side of the place. I suspect the truth is somewhere between the disgruntled and the apologist PR machine.

BASavage
Vernal, UT

A very very biased article. This professor was probably dismissed from the school for submitting biased research. I find it interesting that he can't see pass his race. The article failed to note that one of the main reasons for Coach Crowton dismissal wasn't his poor performance, it was his recruiting style. The article also doesn't mention the fact that Brandon Davies went to the coaches and staff voluntarily. It also failed to mention that in Davies case its only ASSUMED that Davies was involved in premarital sex and that many of the players quoted in the article were up on crimminal charges. Its been my experience that unless there is a crimminal accusation that sort of stuff stays private.

Now there are some harsh people in the honor code department at BYU. I've heard of some people being dismissed from their positions for not being understanding. I also know that there is an entire department in the Atheletic Department that work with atheletes who have minor honor code issues, such as drinking and other word of wisdom issues. Of course the author failed to mention that too.

Utes21
Salt Lake City, ut

I agree with Ldsfan, I think the church should just drop BYU sport like they Did at Ricks or BYU Idaho. Its said to be a missionary tool but honestly how? I understand some former players who were recruited to BYU joined the church like Curtis Brown. At the same time out of all non members who played BYU football how many joined the Church? Not many, my highschool football coach played for BYU back in the glory years, he still holds records there. He never had nice things to say about the church and told us LDS students there were hypocrites always breaking the honor code and thats what turned him off about the church. Granted most students are faithful members but you have some sunday mormons there. Its not a great missionary tool
When I was on my mission we were able to go watch byu play bc. BC won right at the end but within the stands bc students were trying to start a fight with mormon missionaries. This caused more harm then good. If you cut sports BYU would have so much more money to spend on academics.

snowman
Provo, UT

Everyone at BYU is subject to the same honor code.

mrmugooo
Snohomish, WA

um... who's Deadspin? ... and why do I (or anyone else for that matter let alone a university) care what they think?

BleedCougarBlue
Enid, OK

Get a clue.

BYU is in Utah (ya think?) which has been, and still is, historically non-black. So, chances are if you're a black guy in Utah you're probably not LDS which means you probably don't have the same standards as the LDS church, which sets the standards at BYU.

So a large majority of athletes booted from BYU for honor code violations are non-white. That isn't racism or double-standards. That's "you probably weren't raised with the exact same standards as the LDS church and what you think is OK morally is not OK to BYU". You might say that a black kid kicked out of BYU was a Christian and a Baptist, for example, and has 'morals'. Sure, but does that Baptist also believe that sexual relationships before marriage is wrong? Go ask them. I've talked to them. Many say "no".

It's like those who complain that the judicial system in the U.S. is 'only' racist instead of looking at the facts that the majority of those who commit violent crimes in America are non-whites. That isn't racism, that's just a fact.

BASavage
Vernal, UT

I didnt' mention this in my last post. This article is written with a bias. And as most authors know you have to get your main point across in the first 3 paragraphs. As for recruits being "brought to orgies" is inacurrate. In fact is that the player who mentioned that later in the article said "the coaches didn't know about it". So to say that they were recruited with those parties is untrue. Again this is a biased article. Typical of a tabloid style web sight.

Now to say that orgies don't happen with students at BYU is not accurate either. My Father graduated from there in the early 60's. He knew of sex and drinking going on at BYU then. The Honor Code has been around a very long time.

Another thing that this article didn't bring up is all the trouble going on at other Universities and that most of those atheletes are black too. Its not about race, its about culture. Are these young men being taught that with great talent comes great responsiblity AND a microscope.

Utah'95
FPO, AE

Chris_B,

Thank you for your heart-felt post.

oldcougar
Orem, UT

Based on my experience, from long ago, there is some truth to the argument. Honor codes snitches existed when I was there. I was turned in for a "hair" violation 3 days after returning from a mission. When I reported to the Dean's office for my standards interview, the same day/hour, the dean asked me why I was there and laughed when I explained. He immediately signed off on my hair (dismissing the charges, so to speak), and wanted the name of the "monitor" so the Dean could do some "training." I had a math 105 class and was the only non-scholarship athlete in the large class. And, I was the only one who did not willingly participate in the instructor-sanctioned and wanton cheating. When I used the weight room in the field house, I had to carefully avoid and give way on any equipment to the aggressive, steroid-ridden jocks...and endure their foul stories of their last night's sexual conquests. I am an active member of the church, have served in several leadership positions, an avid coug fan. We need leadership on this issue, not defensiveness.

CordonBleu
Park City, UT

Ldsfan

"Drop sports at BYU."

Obviously not a fan at all, or you wouldn't be hoping BYU would drop sports. And, you're at odds with LDS leadership who see BYU sports as a great missionary tool for the church. BYU only dropped sports at BYU-Idaho because Ricks College was moving to a four-year university and the church didn't want the two schools competing for the same athletes. BYU sports aren't perfect, but they produce far more positive exposure for the church than negative. Even the Brandon Davies Honor Code coverage was more positive than negative.

Utes21

"I think the church should just drop BYU sport..."

Of course you do. You're tired of living in BYU's shadow.

Mr. Schneebly
Syracuse, UT

I am a BYU graduate, and I personally know people who were in violation of the honor code, including a white athlete with an addiction to pain killers who was dismissed from the football team and the university.

I believe it is a lie on the part of the dismissed athletes that they were never told anything about the honor code. The honor code is a part of BYU's culture and reputation and has been so for decades.

I am sure BYU could produce an individually signed document by EACH athlete of every race agreeing to abide by the honor code, and it spells out BYU's expectations. If the athletes were dumb enough to sign without reading it, then how is that BYU's fault for misrepresenting the Honor Code?

Young men and women are often tempted to do things they know are wrong, and some try to shift blame when they are caught. The athletes in the story are angry about being caught violating the code and suffering the consequences of their deeds. Has BYU always applied the code perfectly? Probably not, but at least they are trying to improve and be fair with all.

IJ
Hyrum, Ut

Hedge - how do you know who does and doesn't live the HC?

Menace - most likely there are those who are crafty enough to "get away with it." They will regret it in the future.

Part of society will be honest no matter what; part of society will be dishonest no matter what; and part of society needs a little reminder (HC) now and then to help keep them on the strait and narrow. You will always be able to find people in any organization who are less than the ideal member. In an interview with Rolling Stone mag, Jim McMahon talked about sending his wife to the store for beer. He was never tossed. Those who adhere to the precepts are the ones you should judge the organiztion by. The Church and BYU are no different. Persons of high integrity will see the HC for what it is. Bottom feeders will bash as often as opportunity presents itself.

Ldsfan
South Jordan, UT

Cordon Bleu.

I was a Fan growing up. I never saw the mean nature of rivalries back in the 70's and 80's. It was more fun for everyone involved. I attended a baseball game in Provo last year against Utah and was embarrassed by watching the fans treat each other with such disrespect. The students from BYU were shouting very ignorant insults in unison toward the parents of the Utah players. The parents handled it well. I no longer wear anything BYU or Utah. BYU is supposed to show the example of good behavior across the world. I see the hypocrisy from too many and see that BYU is simply the norm, not the exception. I am speaking merely in terms of fans, not the institution as a whole.

Though I would miss it, I still don't believe BYU should compete in sports. Gives members reasons to act poorly. I am no longer a fan of BYU sports. We need more positive press. Sports isn't doing it.

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