Great missionary tool for the lds church.BYU football is more of an
embarrassment for the mormon church.
Mount OlympusWhat?!!! Please tell us how the football
program is an embarrassment?How does this even relate to the
article?Next time, think before you write.
What kind of message is this sending black non Mormon athletes? The way I read
it is the deck is stacked against you and if your not Mormon your judged by
different standards. The reason Y black athlete gets kick out at a
higher rate than white mormon athlete is because they dont have the same
"saftey nets". I suspect a similar % of white mormons are violating
the HR.... there just not getting caught or have the "connections" to
brush it under the rug.Hypocrisy at its finest.
Always the race card for those who have no other card to play! The last act of a
desperate accuser.Re Mount Olympus: you sound like another jealous
Mount OlympusWhat are you talking about? Just because a
disgruntled, former BYU professor with his own personal axe to grind decides to
publish a hatchet job on BYU, doesn't prove anything.Dr. Smith's
"findings" present only his interpretation of his research. He
"conveniently" leaves out any findings or alternative conclusions from
his report, which is intellectually dishonest and wouldn't pass the smell test
for objectivity.His blog is nothing but a ploy to sell books by
playing the racial card.
Like I said on the Trib article. Nothing more than sour grapes from biased
people who have a bone to pick with the LDS chruch or BYU. You can spin any
article or book any way you want to. That goes triple for stories about racial
issues.Couldn't agree more Mountanman. Race is always the last card
to be played when no one is listening to you.
Terrible article by a former professor with a grudge, with quotes only from
former athletes who have similar grudges... Oh and the Steve Young quote, which
he said was incorrect right after... I've never gone to BYU so I'm no
eyewitness, but its obvious that most of the examples he gives were in the
Crowton era. When he didn't care as much about the honor code as he did
recruiting good athletes. So many some of the stuff is true... But I'm confident
that the program is better run now under Bronco Mendenhall.
*maybe some of the stuff is true
Bottom line: If you don't like BYU's honor code, don't go there! What kind of
person agrees to live it on condition of admitance then whines and complains
about it when you are there? There are thousands of people who will gladly take
your place on BYU's campus! Don't like it? Please, please go somewhere else!
Ute fan rationale: BYU football is embarrassing to the church and the whole
program should be dicontinued. Translation: BYU football is gaining
momentum and even with the honor code and the recruiting restrictions, BYU is
better than the U in virtually every sport. Hopefully the entire program is
discontinued because this is just embarrassing to be a U fan. Nice
try utes, BYU football isnt going anywhere.
The issue is that for black athletes or non-mormon athletes, the honor code
principles and values are not lived by these individuals prior to entering BYU.
The principles of no pre-marital sex, no drugs, no alcohol, no swearing, etc.
are foreign to non-mormon athletes and most blacks that come to BYU are
non-mormon. This all comes down to educating & informing athletes prior to
coming to BYU that are not familiar with the LDS church teachings that
"these are our principles...If you don't have a desire to live by these
principles or don't want to live by these principles, then BYU is not a good
option for you." It's apparent that the athletes on the dead spin article
were playing or recruited during the Crowton era and Crowton and his coaches
never informed them to the extent that they should have been. Crowton was a poor
This article is so one-sided it cannot be considered serious journalism. This
reminds me when the University of New Mexico sent a group of students to BYU to
examine their "racist" views. I worked as a desk clerk at Deseret
Towers. As I talked with the students several of them said they did not come to
examine BYU's "racist" policies. They could care less. They said
they had already made up their mind about BYU and it didn't matter what they
found out. They came just to have a free trip. I was astounded at their
outspoken bias and dishonesty. Needless to say they went back and reported
exactly what they intended to report in the first place. They did not care about
honesty, truth or integrity. This article is the same. When much
of this happened it did cause a great concern. That is one of the reasons the
head football coach was asked to resign or get fired. He did not stress the
honor code at all. He lost the vision of the University.Sometimes
athletes have to be verbally beat over the head before they get the idea they
must follow rules.
If this picks up more traction, I wouldn't be surprised to see ex-black athletes
coming out of the woodwork to both defend and attack this article. I
think it has a lot to do with perception, and taking responsibility for one's
There is really no positive way to spin this. This hurts the Church. Honestly,
what do you think people who know nothing or little of the LDS Faith think about
the Church once they have read this article.Maybe it's now time for
the Church to consider doing away with BYU athletics.
"Bottom line: If you don't like BYU's honor code, don't go there!"Moutanman,I agree. But many who "do go there"
don't live by the HC. This "racial issue" goes away when the HC
administration decides to disipline the Mormon athlete the same way the
disipline the non-mormon athelet.Again, hyprocrisy is the real
hedgehog | 10:02 a.m. April 15, 2011 Ann Arbor, MI One thing
is for sure--we have no doubt about how you read it. Yes, in this
day and age, in a society as litigious as ours, with hedgies around every
corner, there is institutionalized 'soft' racism at BYU.It's in their policies,
it's reflected in the comments of university administrators and it's taught in
the classroom. I'm sure the lawsuits are piling up. Look, we get it.
You don't like BYU, the LDS Church, missionaries, green jello, and roadshows. It
does not matter what the corpus of information may reflect in reality, you are
not going to accept it and there is absolutely nothing anyone can say that will
change the calculus of your thinking.
This article is as biased as the one on deadspin. Just like deadspin never gave
the perspective of black BYU athletes who had a positive experince the Deseret
News never addressed the players with a negative experience. So they are really
the same thing, fake journalism that is pushing an agenda. The only difference
is who's side that they are on, like most issues I expect the truth is somewhere
in the middle.
It's easy to merely dismiss these claims as being from people with an axe to
grind. But what I'd these claims are true? Is that what you want BYU to be
about?This is what I know: I've known some white guys from high
school who went to BYU, partied in high school, partied at BYU, and never were
suspended or kicked out for honor code violations. They played 4 years
straight. Explain that. I also know and have known many BYU fans / alumni who
judge people based on skin color and say rotten things about black people. They
say stuff that I just don't get. I just don't get why some people would have
such negative attitudes toward people because of their skin color. These personal experiences of mine lead me to suspect these claims may be
true. If these claims are true, should you address the issues or live in
Otis SpurlockWhat?Who needs to spin it at all? Let's consider all the press the BYU BB team, Brandon Davies, and the Honor
code have already generated. You think this is going to be the keystone of what
people think about BYU, the Honor Code, or the Church? I hardly think so. The
majority of the press has been positive!"Maybe it's now time
for the Church to consider doing away with BYU athletics." Based on what? I guarantee that the brotheren are not concerned about this
article, or what it might do to BYU athletics at all. BYU athletics
aren't going anywhere no matter how badly you want them to.
Interesting that the defense against the article focuses on race and religion.
Nobody denies the section about recruits taken to sex and drinking parties. I
guess anything goes to land the recruit, then you can apply an honor code.
Hedgie,What hypocrisy?You keep claiming that there are
numerous LDS students that are being treated differently. You keep claiming that
there is racial discrimination on something you have no statistics, no
information, no knowledge of at all.No matter how many times you
keep saying it, all you have is several disgruntled athletes and a professor
with an axe to grind.You claim that you are not a BYU hater, yet the
only side you take is the ones that further your own agenda. You continually
shine a huge light the negatives and disregard the positives. That's
Remember Jim Mcmahon? He was a white quarterback for the Y, that won the M&M
bowl back in 1980. He was a non member and he too violated the Honor Code. Why
wasn't he kicked out of school or suspended? Hmmm..... That seems fishy to me!
There are always people who don't get caught, white, black, or purple. Everyone
know what they're getting into when going to BYU. It's just that simple. Read it, Learn it, Live it! If you can't, for your own sake, go
somewhere else. Don't waste a year of eligibility trying to figure out if you
can live this way or not.Many more athletes have survived the HC
than have not from all nationalities. Let's not make this issue something that
it's not please.
Let the spin - spin - spinning begin!!
MenaceToSociety And if these claims are false, what then?I can think of several white athletes who have been disciplined in exactly the
same way for the same or similar reasons. They don't get the pub nor the
uproar.I challenge everyone to listen to the radio interviews with
Curtis Brown and Brian Kehl, and also the author, Darron Smith. Brown and Kehl
will open your eyes to the reality of the star witnesses in Smith's
"research". Smith's own ignorance of the current status (last 6 years)
of BYU athletics, of the many non-LDS athletes who have loved their time at BYU,
of the disciplined LDS athletes who have come back to BYU, and the revelation
that he is seeking publicity for a future book, should cement the opinion that
his article is nothing but a hit piece.Also Oneil Chambers, Tico
Pringle, and others quoted in the article have stated that either their comments
were altered, or were taken out of context. No, the deadspin article
has already received much more attention than it deserves. If there are
legitimate gripes, then they should be presented legitimately.
This is silly. I am a statistician, and as statistics typically are, these
statistics have been interpreted by amateurs to draw emotionally satisfying
conclusions that no true statistician would ever endorse.1st rule in
statistics: Identify and remove bias. This means that when you are comparing
groups you must adjust the populations so that other factors that reasonably
contribute to the observed outcome are removed. Thus leaving yourself with
unbiased data. The question is: Are minority athletes held to a
higher standard with respect to the honor code than white students?Before examining the data you must make sure the populations match. Clear
points of bias exist if one student is LDS or grew up with honor code beliefs vs
a student who didn't. Other interesting points relate to self-reporting. That
is, was the student "caught" or did they turn themselves in?"
When you remove data points for these and other obvious sources of
bias and compare "apples to apples", you will probably find
statistically insignificant differences between the populations. This, however, is not nearly as emotionally satisfying as declaring bigotry or
institutional perfection. There are some bad leaders and students at people at
BYU. So what?
While I am not the biggest BYU fan, I do know Deadspin and the site is atrocious
and unprofessional. They are bloggers and not real journalists. Their parent
company is also responsible for stealing the lost iPhone prototype. Again, no
love lost for BYU but Deadspin is not journalism, it is internet garbage.
I guess mountainman would be an expert on the race card living in Hatenlake
Is every student who attends BYU and then breaks the honor code caught? No,
that's why it is called an HONOR CODE! There is no campus gastapo and each
student is on their honor! If a BYU althete or student doesn't live the honor
code, then does he/she have any honor? Honor is an interesting word, isn't it?
Yes, some have abused it, but what honor do they have in doing so? Honor is
reserved for those who have it! That's the point, not who might "get
away" with something. Its about honor!
This has nothing to do with the byu Utah rivalry.It is what it is
and the numbers speak for themselves. You can come up with whatever excuse you
want to, the numbers clearly tell the story. This isn't limited to
just the football program either - it goes accross all sports.byu
lives and dies by their honor code it's just too bad that people can't admit to
the results. As hard as it was to lose Brandon Davies this year, the press byu
got from it was mostly positive so they loved it, now that it looks ugly, it's
nothing but excuses.
A test of honor is only revealed when someone fails that test and admits to it.
Deadspin, nobody's picking on y'all. Stop preachin the hate and
oppression. Young men of all color are offered an opportunity to better
themselves as an athlete and individual at Brigham Young. At BYU the honor code
provides the environment for growth.Honor, integrity, ethics, and
morality is what separates man from the animal kingdom.
@qwest perfected and the other ute trollsqwest but of course it is
about BYU and utah because the utah trolls like yourself have made it be about
that. Just read the comments. Almost every ute troll that regularly posts on
these forums has commented here agreeing with these allegations. That is no
surprise to any of us as we know you simply are haters of all things BYU and all
things Mormon. You want to believe it, you probably already believed it despite
there not really being any evidence of it because your own anti BYU and/or
Mormon bigotry shapes your opinions to begin with. But other than it
being something to argue about with ute trolls it is really of no consequence.
It is not embarrassing to any of us despite the hope of the ute trolls that it
is. We are not concerned that it will cast BYU in a bad light because the truth
is most people either don't care or have already made up their mind. You know
people like you that blindly hate and believe anything that you think confirm
This is not journalism. This is a biased supposition based on skewed data. I
for one would have at least contacted Derwin Gray. He says Mormonism is a cult,
but he might have a non-biased take on racism and the honor. Could
they have contacted Brian Mitchell? I would highly regard his opinion as a
non-LDS African American former player and coach. I know there are
racist folks at BYU (and in my church for that matter), but to say there is
institutional racism at BYU is ridiculous. On the positive, this
article could bring up good questions and a review by the BYU honor code office
and athletic department to ensure that non-LDS and minority students are getting
the support they need to be successful at BYU.
I personally think true racism rarely occurs anymore in our modern society.
Today classism is the primary driver for different treatment. This is often
reflected in wealth versus poverty but also just generally between different
groups that have little or nothing to do with race (religion, education,
interests, geography, gender, etc.).At BYU, non-LDS (regardless of
color) are the clear minority and in most cases have difficulties that LDS do
not. I think it is telling that this article quoted Kehl and Brown. Two black
athletes who are also LDS. Both articles are missing the point which is that
disadvantages or difficulties at BYU are reflected primarily through religion
not race.Non-LDS do not have the same safety net of confession
through their Bishop which in turn does not get reported to the HC Office. They
also can have a natural struggle with some of the HC issues that are otherwise
seen as accepted and healthy in their own group. I DO NOT think the
HC knowingly treats non-LDS differently. But I do think that non-LDS students at
BYU naturally have challenges that LDS students either don't have or are more
adept at navigating.
I think that the issue sounds like it is based more on religion than it is on
race. But for those of you saying that it is no issue AT ALL, take away the
opinions of the article and simply look at the numbers they present. It is
probably not what it seems, but just looking at their numbers, things look
pretty fishy. BYU should look into it a little bit. I'm not saying they are
guilty or not guilty, but with something like the honor code, a great deal of
effort should be put into making sure it is even handed.
I have no doubt that some racism exists at BYU. I've seen it with my own eyes.
Still, I think much of the disparity among the honor code infractions between
Whites and minorities has to do with being Mormon or non-Mormon, not with race.
The problem is that BYU is a Mormon school, and Mormons have a
history of racism that they were slow to change when the rest of the country
began to reject racist ideas. Racism can still be found in the Mormon
scriptures, something that I doubt will ever change. So it isn't really a
surprise that when the statistics show a high number of minorities falling
victim to the honor code, the most obvious conclusion is that racism is a
I was personally discriminated against as a BYU student. I took my 3.7 freshman
GPA to get a scholarship and they laughed at me. They said, "let's see,
you are white, from Utah, and a mormon. You will have to do better than
that." It is about time that my story is heard. Deadspin -
you can contact me through this forum if you want the rest of the juicy details.
Hedgie and othersFunny that Bill Cosby has been for several years now,
crusading to try and get Black males to stand up and be men and take
resposibility for their actions. He specifically at the Urban League in
Toledo,Ohio about two weeks ago made a point to go out of his way to point out
that Basketball, Football, Baseball and other sports as well as hangin out on
the corner hooking up with the local chicks and fathering illigitimate children
by several different girls are not concidered majors in college. Stands to
reason that if someone like Bill Cosby is making it his personal campaign that
his target audience should begin listening instead of making excuses. He's
trying to teach responsibility within Black communities and targets Younger
Black males specifically about their sexual and moral conduct and the
importantnce of actually using their educational opportunities through sports to
get a real education... and not for the many Black athletes to consider college
as nothing more than a mere stepping stone to the pro's. There must be some
basis that there is a need to do so...otherwise Cosby wouldn't be wasting his
time like Deadspin.
Koke,You are a statistician?No, my friend, you missed
the "first rule" of statistics, or science. The first rule is NOT to
conjecture or assert anything without DATA to support it!So what do
you do?Without ANY data whatsoever, you assert: "When you
remove data points for these and other obvious sources of bias and compare
'apples to apples', you will probably find statistically insignificant
differences between the populations."As a statistician, you
should know you don't test differences between "populations". You test
differences between samples and infer the characteristics of the populations.
But you didn't even do that.I think you fail as a statistician. I
wouldn't hire you.
PAC 12 loves UJim McMahon was interviewed the other on "Mike
and Mike" on ESPN, before this story broke. When asked about Brandon Davies
and how Jim managed to remain at BYU, McMahon's response was, paraphrasing,
"hang out with girls who know how to keep their mouths shut". They
didn't delve any further into the topic.There are lots of students
at BYU who've broken the Honor Code, but who never got caught. It's a certainty
that Jim broke the Honor Code, but it's also a certainty that he never turned
himself in. There's no evidence that the Honor Code Office learned of Jim's
Honor Code violations, but chose to sweep them under the rug.
I love the Church and applaud BYU for their actions with Brandon Davies.
Remember he went to the school and told them he broke the Honor Code. He had
HONOR. What I found amazing was all the BYU fans that blasted the school for
suspending him during the MWC tourney. The school did the right thing. The fans
had a fit which IS hipocracy. The guy who wrote the article does
sound like he has an axe to grind if he is leaving out facts. His article
shouldn't be taken seriously. And Duckhunter, not all Utah fans are
haters. And we all don't hate the Church, most of us are active and strong
members. You hate being stereotyped so don't do it to us.
Imagine an athlete...Any athlete...Any color...Going to BYU and NOT knowing about the CODE...Sorry...I didn't know is just not going to feed the bulldog...Or in this
case...the cougar..Not buying it...Now.
Imagine being black, and LDS and a released slave in Missouri in the 1830's.
Anybody do any 1960s civil rights marches? I was there. The blacks got the
priesthood at exactly the right time in American History. 1960 America was not
pretty - Marches in Selma. Freedom riders - on buses in the South terrorized for
RIDING PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION. Seriously, black and LDS would have
been a seriously bad way to go. Afterall the LDS people had an EXTERMINATION
ORDER.. To kill everyone...Sort of "NAZI LIKE" don't you
think? That was the USA pre and post Civil War into the 1970s. The church is the
doctrine..not the members with faulty attitudes...Great school...Great state...Don't like the code?Go to a party
I M LDS 2Koke didn't make an assertion; he stated a statistical
hypothesis based on a conjecture about two or more populations.You
fail because of intellectual dishonesty. I wouldn't hire you.
One thing I found interesting in the article was when one of the athletes said
that he couldn't transfer to another school because of his dismissal from BYU
due to HC violations. Is this reality stretched as well? Is it true that it is
next to impossible to transfer your credits to another school if you are
dismissed because of honor code violations? I didn't know that. Eligibility is something I know about from an athletic standpoint. I am more
curios about John Smith student who makes a mistake and then tries to get his
life together at another university. Anybody have some input they could give me?
Just because a story has been reported a certain way, or you think it happened a
certain way...does not mean it did. Until you know the whole truth...somewhere
in the middle is actually what happened. I think it is interesting that people
are convinced the deadspin article is false, but positive the BD story is true.
I am in no way referring to racism in either story, just the reporting of the
Ragnar Danneskjold There's no truth whatsoever to a student not
being to transfer credits from BYU to another school because of being expelled
for an Honor Code violation. As long as he passed his classes and earned the
credits, they transfer, period. There would be nothing on his transcript to
indicate why he left BYU.
h-Hog:You are a bomb throwing, drive-by shooter. You have no
It's interesting that the Deseret News would publish this article solely on the
premise that two African-American BYU Alumnus had positive experiences.These two anecdotes don't change the statistics reported by Deadspin.
Furthermore, they don't justify the title of this article.I like
BYU, but the Deseret News' bias is far too obvious here.
Obviously this writer could not find anything to write so, he chose to pull the
racist card because no one would listen to him otherwise. Get over it people,
BYU is as racist as Utah or any other higher institution in the country. Only
because BYU has an honor code do they get all the attention. Why don't we look
at the Ohio state program which had a few of it's star athletes suspended for
next season for violations of NCAA rules. I can't remember but I think the
majority of them were black athletes. Why is the country not in an uproar and
blaming this on racism. If something as simple as a HC violation issue can cause
an uproar about racism, Ohio States administration should be put in jail. Just
saying........Grow up people. If the shoe fits, too bad.
"You are a bomb throwing, drive-by shooter"Yes, that's my
Come OnI tend to trust people like Bryan Kehl and Curtis Brown, who
have proven to be trustworthy, more than a stranger with an obvious axe to
grind.The fact that Mr. Smith chose to focus solely on race in his
study seriously undermines his objectivity and the fact that he misquoted or
took out of context some of the quotes from his interviews undermines his
credibility.Often the truth is not somewhere in the middle, but
skewed to one extreme, false.
Lux et Veritas:Re: "statistics reported by Deadspin" (the
fox guarding the hen house)Do you believe everything you read, or
just selective anti-Mormon propaganda? I suspect it is the latter.
Royal BlueYou have to take ESPN's Mike and Mike as well as Collin Cowherd
especially...with an exceptionally large grain of Salt. For one...it's their
M.O. to mediate controversy. And how many times haven't we heard "The
Herd" himself elaborate that hate sells. Collin is the Glenn Beck of
Sports Radio. If he can't find something relative rational to say then he will
pitch the irrational absurd to stir the pot up. Jimbo definitely was set up and
got totally ambushed on the Mike and Mike interview with the Bradon Davies
question. Hedgie tried to pull this same exact uninspred reasoning
to make it appear relavent. One moment they were dicussing Tiger Woods final
round charge in the Masters...and Jimbo being the humorous and colorful clown
joked about falling asleep and missing the end only to suddenly being blasted
with the Brandon Davies Honorcode issue simply because they new that he would
would say something. It was so obvious that it caught Jimbo off guard but he
made the remark as a joke..then said he was no longer comfortable with the topic
and moved on to Jake Cutler's Superbowl injury.
Lux et Veritas "These two anecdotes don't change the statistics
reported by Deadspin."They may not change the statistics of the
report, but they certainly do change the interpretation of those statistics,
especially since Bryan Kehl and Curtis Brown didn't just give anecdotal
accounts, but were personally acquainted with many of the subjects and had first
hand knowledge of the biases those subjects had that tainted the analysis.The Deseret News has an obligation to present the other side of the
argument when a study is released that is so obviously one-sided.
I love the comment by OKC UTE "And Duckhunter, not all Utah fans are
haters. And we all don't hate the Church, most of us are active and strong
members. You hate being stereotyped so don't do it to us". I
live in a community of many LDS faithful who are UTE fans. We love the rivalry
but there is no hatred. We congratulate each other after our wins and we cheer
for each other when we are not playing one another. And with BYU fans, there are
some who just thrive on the hatred too. It does not matter if you are LDS or
not, if you hate you are no better than those who promote any type of racism or
other disfuntional attitude about society.
It is biased to only publish the opinions of those students with negative
experiences.It is just as biased to discout the opinions of those
with negative experiences and only publish those with positive experiences.
Look at all the mormon ute fans piling on screaming see this is why you don't
need to be a BYU fan if you are mormon. Guess what, these same feelings are
held against the church as a whole and not just BYU.
IDC | 1:31 p.m. April 15, 2011Boise, IDI was personally
discriminated against as a BYU student. I took my 3.7 freshman GPA to get a
scholarship and they laughed at me. They said, "let's see, you are white,
from Utah, and a mormon. You will have to do better than that." It is about
time that my story is heard.Deadspin - you can contact me through
this forum if you want the rest of the juicy details. -----------------Haha wow dude... Thats the truth anywhere. You have to be some kind of
minority to get a special scholarship. That's why I'm at Dixie State with a
scholarship instead at BYU without one. Was it right for someone to
say that to you? No. Is it true? Yes.
Idaho Coug:Curtis Brown was recruited and spent his first two years
at BYU as a non-LDS kid. He is perhaps in the best position to comment on life
as a non-LDS and LDS student-athlete.Ragnar DanneskjoldIn the
case you refer to, the athlete had one year of eligibility left and was on
probation at BYU. He was also the subject of an active police investigation.
NCAA rules at the time forbid an athlete from transferring if he was on any kind
of probation. Since the police investigation was ongoing (and the athlete later
pleaded guilty to a lesser charge), BYU was hardly in a position to remove his
probation. Thus, it was the NCAA that prevented the transfer, not BYU.Just one more example where Smith only gives part of the story. There are so
Re:Solomon LeviThanks for the input. I thought that was surely the case.
@3for5spotshooterWhat the heck are you talking about??? First off
let's get the Blacks given the priesthood date right. It was in 1978 not during
the civil right's movement of the 1960's. And the Extermination order was
decreed by the white Govenor of Missouri Milburn Boggs in the early 1840's with
the intent to exterminate or drive the Mormons out of Missouri. It has nothing
to do with your absurd misinformative remark that the Mormons were out to
exterminate Blacks. That's obviously a spin of some preacher who makes his
living off of preaching and selling prayers and blessings for money... and who's
obviously lost a few members of his congregation to the LDS church along the
money from his collection plates that they used to donate and provided his means
of support. If you're going to come on here and make rediculous comments like
that then you truly are the fool that you undoubtedly have just portrayed
yourself to be.
"Curtis Brown was recruited and spent his first two years at BYU as a
non-LDS kid. He is perhaps in the best position to comment on life as a non-LDS
and LDS student-athlete."Cougar in tX,Actually I
think this would be a weak example.Clearly Brown was sold on the LDS
faith and was moving toward joining. The only real example you should use is the
non-mormon who had no intention to join the church. That's a much different
prespective.... and one that unfortunately is looked down on in provo.
"Since 1993, of the 70 student-athletes suspended for breaking the honor
code, 54 of them (80 percent) were minorities and 41 of them (60 percent) were
black"---------Is this number true? Can BYU
confirm it?If so then I think that about says it all regardless of
the opinions of pro or anti-BYU former players.
Bottom Line - the Honor Code is one of the BEST things about BYU, and it sets it
apart from most of the other schools in the country.I am a white LDS
male who attended BYU in the 1980s. In 1986, I did the same thing Brandon
Davies did - I slept with my girlfriend. I am not proud of it. I felt bad
about doing it. I spoke with my parents first, prayed about it, and then
decided to see my BYU bishop. He was kind and helpful. I voluntarily withdrew
myself from the university. I was also disfellowshipped.I had a lot
to lose. I had a scholarship and a great job as a dormitory resident assistant
(free room and board). Basically, everything was paid for - a sweet deal for a
college kid. I could have kept my mouth shut; my girlfriend wanted me to. But,
I believe I did the right thing.A year later I was back in full
fellowship and eventually graduated from BYU. The diploma hangs on my office
wall and I'm proud of my school. It doesn't matter who or what you are - the
Code is the Code.
hedgehog Did you listen to Brown's interview?He had NO
intention of joining when he came to BYU.Perhaps they could also
talk to Brian Logan, who just finished his eligibility as a non-LDS
student-athlete. When Logan gives a positive review of his time at BYU (which he
has already done unprovoked in the past), then what will your excuse be?
Solomon,No, Koke speculated without data, pure and simple.I don't much worry whether or not you would hire me. I make over six figures
doing statistics.I'm guessing you don't.As Trump would
say, "YOU are fired!"
OK..Anybody know anything about pharmaceutical companies and drug
testing procedures?The statistical sample here is TOO SMALL...Maybe sociology?Again too small a sample population...Maybe the question should be how many athletes and non-athletes at BYU
are disciplined for honor code violations...and what is the makeup
of the population...would be a good place to start...Again...Didn't know before I came...Don't think
so...More likely..Heard it and it went in one ear and
out the other...NOw I recall Jimmer coming because he was shown
dances, cookies and punch...and NO DRUGS and NO PARTIES...So my sample is one little white guard and so...Only black
athletes are shown parties..Isn't my sample large enough?Guess I'll write a book...Tempest in a tea pot..
What's a minority?Hedgehog,Are you prejudice toward BYU?
Talk about hyprocrisy.
Clearly the Crowton and Hale years were a disaster.
@3for5spotshooterNo...but I can direct you to where you can get a drug
test...Obviously since you haven't come close to commenting on the subject of
this discussion on former minority athletes who broke BYU honor standards and
were disciplined... I wouldn't rule out that there might be a need for you to
Since 1993, of the 70 student-athletes suspended for breaking the honor code, 54
of them (80 percent) were minorities and 41 of them (60 percent) were
black"---------Is this number true? Can BYU confirm
it?If so then I think that about says it all regardless of the
opinions of pro or anti-BYU former players. ----------No, these numbers are not accurate because BYU does not release information
about who is suspended or how many students are disciplined by the Honor Code
office. The only figures they were able to correct would be those that were
either outed in the media or had criminal charges (therefore, public). I knew
dozens of white students (and even a few athletes) at BYU that were busted for
the honor code and suspended, but most people never hear about it because they
either leave quietly, or on their own. The deadspin.com article was
horribly biased and inaccurate, and the media reporting on it have not done
anyone justice. What has hapeened to journalism that they think it is ok to
just take one side and run with it??
If you listen to the Kehl interview, he did a case-by-case analysis of the black
players that were suspended, and found a high percentage had either been charged
with crimes (which would have gotten them suspended at most universities) or had
pregnant girlfriends (couldn't hide the transgression). When you eliminate
those groups, the disparity between races isn't nearly so dramatic.I
listened to Darron Smith's interview with Gordon Monson. He danced all around
the question of why he didn't include some interviews with black players who had
a good experience at BYU, and basically said "You'll have to buy my book to
get those." So, he's using some sensational material to promote his book,
which has yet to find a publisher.There are so many factors to examine.
For example, BYU has many married football players. What is the percentage of
married players, white and black? If there is a higher percentage of married
white players, wouldn't that affect the number of chastity-related HC
violations?And so on...
Has everyone read the article and responses of the three cited in the story.
They are all black, only three, what about the other 67. Where are the excerpts
from their interviews. The article cites .... other cases, media reports, and
interviews as the source. It sounds like weak investigative reporting, sometimes
"data" is purposally skewed to support the allegation. I wonder here.
I wonder where this data came from. You know that the Y keeps this
as confidental as possible. The reason that so many of those known cases are
athletes is simply because, when a player is absent from a game, it is obvious
and public. It appears to me that the article is designed to
identify the Y is, as the article states, "its racial legacy". It is
not about the Y as much as it is an assult on the LDS belief. When
you enroll at the Y, you sign the honor code. Why would anyone say, they didn't
think that they meant it. Rules are rules and your signature is a bond.Enough said, the greatest majority of students, white black or other, respect
and honor the honor code.
It spreads like cancer. Wrong doing is being excused with the minority card.
It's destroying the country.
I M LDS 2As any statistician making six figures should know,
statistics are meaningless unless they account for all reasonably possible
variables.Since the author of this study only considered race, his
study is fundamentally flawed. You as a supposed statistician should know
this.If I were you boss, six figures or not, I'd have serious doubts
about the quality of your job performance.
I guess the guestion is. If you're a black non-mormon with no intentions to join
the church, Y would you ever consider BYU?This ariticle screams run
away - run away as fast as you can. Your type is not wanted here.As
BYU attempts to capture more of a national "exposure", what does it
say to the world having almost no black players on the team? For many (if not
most) this will be the face of the mormon church.
IM LDS 2,Yes, I am a statistician. It appears that my logic offends
the conclusion you want to draw and that you seek to discredit my arguments by
turning this into a debate over semantics or even my individual worth. Let's
get back to the point.There is tremendous stupidity in drawing
conclusions about the question of bigotry from raw comparisons of unvetted data.
I made no conclusions, but only put forward the hypothesis that if you remove
the obvious bias in this data, the picture will likely look much different. Since you disagree so strongly, let me seek clarification with and
example. Are you saying that a person who didn't value sexual abstinence before
college is equally likely to abstain from sex during college as a person who
grew up believing in abstinence (even if they signed a promise not too)?And would you finally conclude that if a person in the former group did
not keep their commitment at the same rate as the person who always espoused
those values that it had something to do with their race?If you
agree, you are the bigot. If you don't, I win.
statistician on statistician crime!Get your ticketsLOL!
I think the bottom line is that the LDS athlete who wants to hide his or her
transgressions knows how to hide them. They know that there is no forgiveness
from the BYU Honor Code Office. The non-LDS athlete doesn't have the
wherewithal to keep their sins completely confidential. The BYU campus, whether
anyone wants to admit it or not, has a bunch of Pharisees who are looking for
every opportunity to turn in a sinner. There are also many wonderful,
non-judgemental kids. There are definitely both types. Jim McMahon
keeps getting referenced because he's a white guy who partied. He also grew up
in Utah, was familiar with the culture, and knew enough to keep his mouth shut
and only party with others who kept their mouth shut.It's kind of an
ironic situation that those who can most successfully circumvent the Honor Code
are those who understand it the best. I think that puts a greater
responsibility on the LDS athlete and coach to help their non-LDS brethren to be
found only in holy places. Don't you?
@okc ute and duhCan you show me where I referenced utah fans or ute
supporters as a whole? No I specifically said the "ute trolls that are
always on these blogs" which is a very specific set of individuals such as
hedgehog for instance.I'm perfectly aware there are plenty of utah
fans that are LDS, are decent people, are not haters, etc. I know and associate
with many. I called out a select few that have posted in this very
article and who do so daily and always criticize BYU, lie about BYU, or agree
with something like this obvious hit peice that tries to paint BYU in a bad
light.So if you are not one of those individuals you do not need to
take that mantle onto yourself nor do you need to try and prove something that I
never even asserted. Reading comprehension is vital.
I M LDS 2,Another point to my statistician colleague. You say that
"As a statistician, you should know you don't test differences
between "populations". You test differences between samples and infer
the characteristics of the populations. But you didn't even do that."You are right, I didn't test differences between samples because you
only use samples to make inferences when it is impractical to gather complete
population statistics. In the case of this debate, we have complete population
data, so sample taking and inference doesn't make sense. By your
argument, we should select a random sample of say 200 BYU athletes and measure
for ethnicity and honor code violation to draw an inference about BYU racism. A
silly exercise with a high error rate when you have the whole population data.
As an accomplished statistician, I'm sure you knew that but just
forgot it for the moment.
I don't know about everyone else, but I would like to just sit back and watch
the two statisticians go at it. Very thought provoking and informative. For the
record, my money is on Koke.(Wait, I guess that would be an Honor Code
violation. My bad.)
Their publication is exactly entitled for what they print. "DeadSpin";
it is dead news, and it's a spin on the truth.
@WinglishA true pharasee thy self having just moved rocks & boulders
to find the source of sifting sand that is is so easily swept up by prevailing
currents and blowing in thy own face so that thou can curse the universe for
blinding your eyes while you search so obsessively and diligently for the faults
of those whom you freely choose to live among yourself. One does not have to
travail far to find your sort. You stick out like sore thumbs.
@ModerateSorry Moderate. You have BYU confused with the University of
Colorado who had coaching staff taking recruits to sex parties where it was also
confirmed that there was a little more than just alchohol served at those
parties. That allegation is so obviously borrowed that it lacks any credence or
merit for comment. You could though, talk to the former Buffalo Head Coach at
the time who now coaches in L.A. in the PAC 10. It's quite possible that some of
the very people qouted in this rediculous smear piece of journalism were
recruited by Colorado and reached a level of mind at those recruiting parties
that they still get confused as to where and when those things did actually
happen. Drop a few bucks and a little suggestion and it's amazing how suddenly
the memory suddenly emerges and an implication without substance is so easily
laid at anyones door who is being targeted. Sorry your line broke on that
fishing cast and that you lost hook, line and sinker.
Remember Black 14???? It destroyed Wyoming Football!!
I for one was happy when the church dropped the sports programs at BYU Idaho. It
does little to build up the church. If BYU dropped sports, I would be fine. I
see how members quarrel Over football talk and hardly talk to each other to the
point where the BYU fans don't come to church after a loss so they don't have
the hear it from their neighbors. Is this what the church teaches? It is simply
sports. It is taken way too serious. Are our lives so boring that we have to
live it through a bunch of young men and women? Drop sports at BYU.
The article was pretty negative, and obviously centered on some disgruntled
athletes. But what about the merits? It is easy to just point your finger back
and say they were disgruntled. How much is actually true, from a factual
perspective rather than just attitude? Over the years, I have been aware of
activities of the honor code crowd to know that they have their spies and they
are aggressive in not just waiting for things to come to them, but hunting for
violations. There is definitely uneven enforcement. There really seems to be a
parallel with Islamic states like Iran with their religion police. I love BYU
and it is still part of my life, but this does touch on the dark side of the
place. I suspect the truth is somewhere between the disgruntled and the
apologist PR machine.
A very very biased article. This professor was probably dismissed from the
school for submitting biased research. I find it interesting that he can't see
pass his race. The article failed to note that one of the main reasons for Coach
Crowton dismissal wasn't his poor performance, it was his recruiting style. The
article also doesn't mention the fact that Brandon Davies went to the coaches
and staff voluntarily. It also failed to mention that in Davies case its only
ASSUMED that Davies was involved in premarital sex and that many of the players
quoted in the article were up on crimminal charges. Its been my experience that
unless there is a crimminal accusation that sort of stuff stays private.Now there are some harsh people in the honor code department at BYU.
I've heard of some people being dismissed from their positions for not being
understanding. I also know that there is an entire department in the Atheletic
Department that work with atheletes who have minor honor code issues, such as
drinking and other word of wisdom issues. Of course the author failed to mention
I agree with Ldsfan, I think the church should just drop BYU sport like they Did
at Ricks or BYU Idaho. Its said to be a missionary tool but honestly how? I
understand some former players who were recruited to BYU joined the church
like Curtis Brown. At the same time out of all non members who played BYU
football how many joined the Church? Not many, my highschool football coach
played for BYU back in the glory years, he still holds records there. He never
had nice things to say about the church and told us LDS students there were
hypocrites always breaking the honor code and thats what turned him off about
the church. Granted most students are faithful members but you have some sunday
mormons there. Its not a great missionary toolWhen I was on my mission we
were able to go watch byu play bc. BC won right at the end but within the stands
bc students were trying to start a fight with mormon missionaries. This caused
more harm then good. If you cut sports BYU would have so much more money to
spend on academics.
Everyone at BYU is subject to the same honor code.
um... who's Deadspin? ... and why do I (or anyone else for that matter let
alone a university) care what they think?
Get a clue.BYU is in Utah (ya think?) which has been, and still is,
historically non-black. So, chances are if you're a black guy in Utah you're
probably not LDS which means you probably don't have the same standards as the
LDS church, which sets the standards at BYU.So a large majority of
athletes booted from BYU for honor code violations are non-white. That isn't
racism or double-standards. That's "you probably weren't raised with the
exact same standards as the LDS church and what you think is OK morally is not
OK to BYU". You might say that a black kid kicked out of BYU was a
Christian and a Baptist, for example, and has 'morals'. Sure, but does that
Baptist also believe that sexual relationships before marriage is wrong? Go ask
them. I've talked to them. Many say "no".It's like those
who complain that the judicial system in the U.S. is 'only' racist instead of
looking at the facts that the majority of those who commit violent crimes in
America are non-whites. That isn't racism, that's just a fact.
I didnt' mention this in my last post. This article is written with a bias. And
as most authors know you have to get your main point across in the first 3
paragraphs. As for recruits being "brought to orgies" is inacurrate.
In fact is that the player who mentioned that later in the article said
"the coaches didn't know about it". So to say that they were recruited
with those parties is untrue. Again this is a biased article. Typical of a
tabloid style web sight.Now to say that orgies don't happen with
students at BYU is not accurate either. My Father graduated from there in the
early 60's. He knew of sex and drinking going on at BYU then. The Honor Code has
been around a very long time. Another thing that this article didn't
bring up is all the trouble going on at other Universities and that most of
those atheletes are black too. Its not about race, its about culture. Are these
young men being taught that with great talent comes great responsiblity AND a
Chris_B,Thank you for your heart-felt post.
Based on my experience, from long ago, there is some truth to the argument.
Honor codes snitches existed when I was there. I was turned in for a
"hair" violation 3 days after returning from a mission. When I
reported to the Dean's office for my standards interview, the same day/hour, the
dean asked me why I was there and laughed when I explained. He immediately
signed off on my hair (dismissing the charges, so to speak), and wanted the name
of the "monitor" so the Dean could do some "training." I had
a math 105 class and was the only non-scholarship athlete in the large class.
And, I was the only one who did not willingly participate in the
instructor-sanctioned and wanton cheating. When I used the weight room in the
field house, I had to carefully avoid and give way on any equipment to the
aggressive, steroid-ridden jocks...and endure their foul stories of their last
night's sexual conquests. I am an active member of the church, have served in
several leadership positions, an avid coug fan. We need leadership on this
issue, not defensiveness.
Ldsfan"Drop sports at BYU."Obviously not a fan
at all, or you wouldn't be hoping BYU would drop sports. And, you're at odds
with LDS leadership who see BYU sports as a great missionary tool for the
church. BYU only dropped sports at BYU-Idaho because Ricks College was moving to
a four-year university and the church didn't want the two schools competing for
the same athletes. BYU sports aren't perfect, but they produce far more positive
exposure for the church than negative. Even the Brandon Davies Honor Code
coverage was more positive than negative.Utes21"I
think the church should just drop BYU sport..."Of course you
do. You're tired of living in BYU's shadow.
I am a BYU graduate, and I personally know people who were in violation of the
honor code, including a white athlete with an addiction to pain killers who was
dismissed from the football team and the university. I believe it is
a lie on the part of the dismissed athletes that they were never told anything
about the honor code. The honor code is a part of BYU's culture and reputation
and has been so for decades. I am sure BYU could produce an
individually signed document by EACH athlete of every race agreeing to abide by
the honor code, and it spells out BYU's expectations. If the athletes were dumb
enough to sign without reading it, then how is that BYU's fault for
misrepresenting the Honor Code?Young men and women are often tempted
to do things they know are wrong, and some try to shift blame when they are
caught. The athletes in the story are angry about being caught violating the
code and suffering the consequences of their deeds. Has BYU always applied the
code perfectly? Probably not, but at least they are trying to improve and be
fair with all.
Hedge - how do you know who does and doesn't live the HC?Menace -
most likely there are those who are crafty enough to "get away with
it." They will regret it in the future.Part of society will be
honest no matter what; part of society will be dishonest no matter what; and
part of society needs a little reminder (HC) now and then to help keep them on
the strait and narrow. You will always be able to find people in any
organization who are less than the ideal member. In an interview with Rolling
Stone mag, Jim McMahon talked about sending his wife to the store for beer. He
was never tossed. Those who adhere to the precepts are the ones you should
judge the organiztion by. The Church and BYU are no different. Persons of high
integrity will see the HC for what it is. Bottom feeders will bash as often as
opportunity presents itself.
Cordon Bleu. I was a Fan growing up. I never saw the mean nature of
rivalries back in the 70's and 80's. It was more fun for everyone involved. I
attended a baseball game in Provo last year against Utah and was embarrassed by
watching the fans treat each other with such disrespect. The students from BYU
were shouting very ignorant insults in unison toward the parents of the Utah
players. The parents handled it well. I no longer wear anything BYU or Utah. BYU
is supposed to show the example of good behavior across the world. I see the
hypocrisy from too many and see that BYU is simply the norm, not the exception.
I am speaking merely in terms of fans, not the institution as a whole. Though I would miss it, I still don't believe BYU should compete in sports.
Gives members reasons to act poorly. I am no longer a fan of BYU sports. We need
more positive press. Sports isn't doing it.
@ldsfanYou are obviously a utah fan. Nice try.
Is Deadspin implying that athletes of color are not able to keep an honor code?
How racist of them.
LdsfanSorry, I'm not buying your story. I've been to hundreds of BYU
sporting events over several decades and I've never heard anything but mild
heckling in unison from BYU students. I know Vance Law, BYU's head baseball
coach, personally, and know he would never tolerate the kind of behavior
commonly seen by student sections at other universities. There might be an
occassional out-of-line insult from a handful of students, but to brand the
entire BYU athletic program based on the disrespectful actions of a few shows
you're either way too hypersensitive or you're just a BYU hater trying to stir
Koke,Now you are really not making sense. First you say "these
statistics have been interpreted by amateurs to draw emotionally satisfying
conclusions that no true statistician would ever endorse."Then
YOU not only claim to be a "true" statistician, but you draw your OWN
"emotionally satisfying conclusions", which is what I challenged you
on. You did exactly what you accused the "amateurs" of doing.There is no basis in the data for your speculative conjecture of
"statistically insignificant differences between the populations".
"Bias" is not the issue.You say The question is: Are
minority athletes held to a higher standard with respect to the honor code than
white students?Then you turn around and say In the case of this
debate, we have complete population data, so sample taking and inference doesn't
make sense.We (you?) have the honor code data for the entire
population of minority and white athletes who have ever attended BYU? That is
doubtful, which means you require sampling and inference to make assertions such
as yours. Right?
Deadspin's whole premise makes no sense. Why would BYU spend thousands of hours
recruiting black student athletes and then not do everything they could to help
them succeed? To even suggest that a school would set any of its students up for
failure is ludicrous. If BYU didn't want students of a particular race at the
school, they wouldn't spend so much time recruiting them. Deadspin's
"research" is nothing but a hatchet job from a disgruntled former
Koke,What is more disturbing is that you are willing to speculate
and conjecture about MY beliefs as regards race and the honor code at BYU. You
do this by trying to put words in my mouth: "...a person who
didn't value sexual abstinence before college is equally likely to abstain from
sex during college as a person who grew up believing in abstinence (even if they
signed a promise not too)?""And would you finally conclude
that if a person in the former group did not keep their commitment at the same
rate as the person who always espoused those values that it had something to do
with their race?"Interestingly, in the way you phrased these
loaded, putting-words-in-my-mouth questions, you are identifying single-subject
cases, which are handled in an entirely different manner than
"statistically".None of my comments mentioned anything
about race, the honor code (which I have complied with faithfully my entire
life, including my years at BYU), or bigotry. I was simply pointing out the
flaws in your unsupported assertions and appeals to your own authority as a
"statistician". On those grounds, you were way off base.
Grow up "I M LDS 2". You certainly don't show the maturity of someone
who supposedly makes six figures. Instead of arguing semantics about another
blogger's assertions, why aren't you pointing out the flaws the obvious flaws in
the study, which anyone with even a cursory knowledge of statistics can see?
Well said Rockwell. I doubt his income is what he says it is. I could say that I
make 7 figures a year and no one on here would be the wiser. Besides, 100,000 is
a lot less impressive than 999,999. I make $100,000.00 in my sleep.(And no one
is the wiser.)
The claim that the Honor Code Office needs to be more transparent put forward by
the blogger at the Herald, makes no sense in light of the central point of the
attack.;The fact of the matter is that multiple people have attacked
the whole Davies situation on the grounds that the Honor Code office "made
a public example" out of him. That would mean that the Honor Code office
is too public with its actions and needs to find more private courses of action,
which is the opposite of transparency. Personally I think the current set-up of
letting cases being dealt with on an issue specific inquiry is good.I would have to say that some employees of the honor code office are far to
centrered on form. I went home early from my mission due to medical issues. It
wa an honorable release. I still had to reapply fully to BYU on the grounds
that a mission defgerment is two years and if you go home early the deferment no
longer stands. This was the most narrow minded and enraging thing I ever dealt
However such bad attitudes and not even connecting the logical dots can be found
all over the place. As a self-proclaimed part Cherokee someone might try to
manipulate my situation to advance their claim of racism, but I have been
described as "the whitest person I know" by some people, and have
never had anyone on seeing me classify me other than white.The race
statistics in this article are meaningless and misleading. To begin with how
did people determine the race of those disciplined? This is an important
question because about 10% of BYU's student body refuses to mark their race on
application forms and BYU can not require such.Beyond this, the race
stats only are comparable to the total racial make up of student athletes, which
we do not know. Even if we knew that we would have to know religious standing,
family religious standing, real pre-enrollment honor code living (which no one
at BYU knows if some have lied to get in), and a lot more factors. Correlations does not prove causation. This is especially true when you are
dealing with samples below 100 people.
So over 18 years there have been 70 suspensions of student athletes from BYU.
Before we give credence to this figure we need to know what would happen if
someone were suspended more than once. Would that be counted as one or two
suspensions.Why only back to 1993? What makes that the cut-off
year. How many student athletes have their been during this time?
Are there teams that have never had an athlete suspended? If there are we
probably should exclude their members from theoretical counts. Another
question, do former members of the wrestling and gymnastics teams who are
suspended after the teams get dispanded count as suspended student athletes or
The Crowton era is generally held up as a time of failure. Mendenhall on the
other hand has emphasized the importance and nature of the honor code all along,
and in general had better teams. How is it that Crowton gets better
teams even though he in theory exludes many players on non-athletic criteria? I
think it is because much of the hype of getting talented players to sign on
focuses college sports in the wrong direction. The reall issue is
having good coaches who can develop players and disciplined players who are
willing to work to perform. The later is often a seperate issue from the
players having been disciplined enough to perform.
The claim that most African-American students who "come to BYU" are
non-Mormon is false. The majority of black students at BYU are Mormons. The
majority of black student-athletes when they start at BYU may be non-Mormons,
but that is a very different group. Even there you have people like Curtis
Brown who join the Church at BYU so such things are doable.On the
other hand the level at which inner-city blacks cokme from an atmosphere totally
different than BYU is too often glossed over. However to claim that anything
BYU does in this matter constitutes "harrassing" is just plain stupid.
ideally maybe BYU should be more hesitant to take non-Mormon
athletes. Coache Cleveland had probably the most trying experiences on this
line. However, people forget the legacy of black arm bands and fires on the
floor. There is a strong pressure to have black athletes. If there is an
unfair system it is that BYU may at times take black athletes who have red-flags
of background issues when they would not take similar white athletes. However
this is because of the double standard that is supported by the people attacking
PAC 12, You are the one who has no sense of reality. For your accusation
to even make sense you would have to be able to cite removal of a non-white
player for similar alleged actions in a similar time frame. you can not claim
racism by saying that non-white players in 2003 are treated differently than a
white player in 1980. The rules that BYU sports really operated under changed
over time. In many ways the treatment of athletes since Mr. McMahon have been
conditioned by later statments by McMahon.It is an attempt to
eradicate hypocracy and to make sure that all BYU students are held to the honor
code and to end the emptiness feeling inducing distruess in the McMahon case
that has lead to actual enforcement of rules against players later.Your attempt to claim racism here is a bunch of rubbish and stupidity. What
you are actually demonstrating is that there was a realization at some point
that the system had not been working and a decision to enforce the system in a
Ragnar, The claim you can not transfer your credits when you have been
removed from BYU on an honor code infraction is false. I had a very good friend
who did exactly that, and he was able to transfer 89 credits to the new
institution, which was the most they would allow to be transfered. The claim that it would be hard to transfer credits is just plain hogwash. Of
couse if you have failed all your courses then there are no credits to transfer,
but that is a different issue.
My good friend even managed to have some credits from the BYU religion
department transfer, and this was transfering to a public university in
Michigan. At some level I would not be surprised if public universities in
Michigan are more willing to accept BYU religion department credits than public
universities in Utah. In Utah the Utah ACLU would sue if it caught wind of such
a thing, in Michigan sueing over such a thing would expose the ACLU as the
hateful and vindictive anti-religious organization it is. Put
another way, there are far more hard-core anti-Mormons in Utah than in Michigan,
and they are much more likely to be friends of the ACLU. Here in Michigan the
most vocal enemies of Mormonism are also the ones who the ACLU attacks. This is
because they are Fundamentalist Evangelical Christians and not hard-core synical
Newwest, Actually having married players and the rate of law-of-chastity
violations is not correlated, and if it is it is hard to say how. There are in
theory sports figures who cheat on their wives. This would create another
person with a very high interest in knowing of such events than the two people
involved, although there is a complexed set of issues on whether a cheated-on
spouse of a student-athlete would expose their spouse. It may be
true that married athletes are less likely to break the law of chastity, but
this is a supposition that largely assumes breaking the law of chastity involves
relationships with "girlfriends" instead of one-night-stands or
whatnot, a supposition that seems to ignore the reasons why there are so many
Koke, There was a study done that showed that abstinance pledges to
marriage, done without any reinforcing or change of other situations, have no
statistically discernable effect on the likelyhood of a change in the frequency
of pre-marital sex.That would mean that the answer to your question
is that we have ample evidence to support the conclusion that the honor code
signing alone would not matter very much but the previous life experiences of
the players, as well as their network of friends and associates, would
matter.That said, the more I think about this the more sketical I am
about the base figures. How does Mr. Smith know that there have been 70 student
athletes suspended since 1993? How does he determine whether they are
"minority" or not and whether they are "black" or not.
There have been enough Brazilians at BYU to make racial determination very
difficult. Even if these figures are true, what do we compare them
to? The only comparable figures would be the student-athlete overall
population, but even if you had the racial break-down of the student athletes
over these last 18 years it could be misleading.
I thought John Pack Lambert of Michigan claimed to be an honest, law-abiding
person.But here we have 10 (count 'em) comments on a forum where
only 4 are allowed?Tsk, Tsk, John. You should be ashamed.
Rockwell & Cougars1,Grow up?That is your "grown
up" rejoinder?LOL.D&C 50:7
I M LDS 2When you're finished laughing, read and apply: D&C
If you were really the statistician you claim to be, LDS2, you'd be
demonstrating your statistical expertise by addressing the obvious flaws in the
Deadspin study, instead of getting into a spitting match with everyone who
disagrees with you.Unless, of course, by pointing out the flaws you
would be undermining a study that supports your own personal biases.
Solomon & skywalker,I have simply used my statistical knowledge
to point out the hypocrisy of Koke's and the vacuousness of your arguments.I have not stated anything about my own personal beliefs one way or
another.Trying to attack me does not make your arguments any less
hypocritical or vacuous.Perhaps you should take a chill pill.
I think the issue about transferring credits has been misunderstood. For a
player one semester short of graduation to transfer to another school at that
point and hope to graduate from another school I believe is likely impossible.
What school is going to present a diploma from their school with the student
having only taken 3-5 classes there? I believe that you have to have a minumum
number of credits from a school to apply for graduation.Of course,
the aggrieved should have thought about, or been man enough to acknowledge the
consequences for what he for certain knew he was doing that was wrong. I
understand his frustration, but for fault he only needs consult a mirror.
Big words, hollow arguments LDS 2.Why don't you address he real
subject at hand, the questionable Deadspin study? A real statistician without a
personal bias to protect should have a heyday attacking such a flawed study.
SUMMARY1) Dr. Smith has an axe to grind.2) Mr. Harmon is an
apologist.3) Amare Stoudemire says don't go there.Duckhunter |
7:29 p.m. April 15, 2011 "Can you show me where I referenced
utah fans or ute supporters as a whole? No I specifically said the "ute
trolls that are always on these blogs" which is a very specific set of
individuals such as hedgehog..."---Haha, you make me
laugh dude. Are you denying your hatred for Ute fans in general? Having read your posts for a while now I can attest that you have many times,
in past posts, clumped Ute fans together. True, you have on occasion hedged your
remarks to seem like your are refering to individuals. But it would not be hard
for me to get examples when you place Utah fans in a blantantly negative light.
Two classic Duckhunter Modi Operandi are the use of "quotation marks"
to decribe Ute fans (again, not singling out specific individuals) and the
copious use of "LOL" at the end of your Ute smack talk. No
reason to pretend you're not a hater. You're their Hedgehog. And it's great.
Uteanymous,"Big words, hollow arguments LDS 2."??Why the bullying tone? If the study is flawed, point out the flaws, but make
sure you have your statistical ducks in a row. If you have studies and data that
support contrary conclusions, tell us about them. But don't just pop off without
any basis (data).You know nothing of my "biases"
whatsoever. Yet you continue to presume you do. That is exactly the hypocrisy I
am calling out.I do not have the data. Neither do you. Contrary to
what Koke asserts, the FIRST rule of statistics is to make sure you know what
data you do or do not have. Don't speculate beyond the data, especially when you
don't have any!And for this you get all huffy?Doesn't
make you look very good.
@LDS 2"If the study is flawed, point out the flaws,..."IF???As a "statistician" you know the study is
flawed based on obvious factors that the researcher chose not to consider; so
either you're unwilling to point out the flaws for some personal reason, or
you're not the "statistician" you purport to be.Quit
hiding beyond the "I don't have the data" excuse, but then attacking
everybody who suggests an alternative conclusion.For example, how
many students in the study were expelled for crimes such as theft, assault, DUI,
rape, and illegal drug use? Things that could have gotten them expelled from
most schools and had nothing to do with race and are not unique to the BYU Honor
Code.Nothing in the study suggests that crimes were considered in
evaluating alternate reasons for expulsion that had nothing to do with racial
I M LDS 2, what data do you have that Uteanymous is using a bullying tone or
that he is all huffy. He could be laughing as he is typing. So you need to
follow what you say is the FIRST rule of statistics and make sure you know what
data you do or do not have. Just like inferring through the D&C
that some of us are hypocrites. I would suggest that you do not have all of the
data necessary to come to that kind of conclusion. As for the
Deadspin article, we know that his statistics are made up since BYU does not
release that information, so we really have no way of knowing if he is
correct.I do like reading your posts. Makes me feel smart.
Cougar1,There is plenty of data in your post alone to conclude some
people still think they are in elementary school.Cest la vie. You
all will continue to give the Church a bad name, and I will continue to make a
good living with statistics.Good luck to you all.
I M, Nice. That one even made me laugh. As far as giving the church a bad name,
nice try. And way to throw that "income" of yours around, but nobody
is impressed; especially those of us who are independently wealthy:-)
"I don't much worry whether or not you would hire me. I make over six
figures doing statistics... Trying to attack me does not make your arguments any
less hypocritical or vacuous... Why the bullying tone? There is plenty of data
in your post alone to conclude some people still think they are in elementary
school... And for this you get all huffy?"The vacuous, circular
logic of the wannabe statistician.
Cougars1, LOTR, and others,By all means, if you have valid arguments
against my points, please share them. Your attacks on me are meaningless and
only demonstrate your immaturity.If your knowledge of statistics and
science is superior to my own, and offer insights into this case, I implore you
to share them with us. I really do make my living with statistics. It is a very
good living. I have demonstrated my knowledge of statistics.Please
reciprocate. Demonstrate your superior knowledge of statistics, and apply it to
this case.Please?We will wait for you...
LDS 2What insights have you offered into this case based on your
"superior knowledge" of statistics and science? To date,
the ONLY thing you've done is nitpik other bloggers' comments. Maturity would
seem to suggest using this as a teaching moment, instead attacking every blogger
who disagrees with you.If you're really such an expert in
statistics, why don't you critique the study for us, pointing out BOTH the
strengths and weaknesses of the study, and why other factors, besides race,
weren't considered.Since BYU doesn't release information to the
public regarding how many student athletes have been displined because of Honor
Code violations, how do we know that the data is even complete for the years
studied?Over 500 BYU athletic scholarships are awarded annually,
with an average of only 3 to 4 student athletes being suspended per year (70
total since 1993). That seems awfully low considering how difficult everyone
says it is to live the standards of the BYU Honor Code.Enlighten us.
Just the FAX Actually, BYU only has about 256 athletic scholarships
to award each year, but considering walkons, club sports (like rugby), and
sports like men's volleyball that only has 4 1/2 scholarships to share between
15 or more players, there are well over 300 student athletes at BYU. I wonder if
all of them were included in the study.
Just the FAX,My original comment took Koke to task for claiming to
be a "statistician" and, in virtue of that claimed
"authority", doing a poor job of critiquing the Deadspin study on
statistical grounds. I believe I effectively trumped Koke's claimed authority
and showed that Koke's arguments were fallacious.For instance, Koke
argued the study had "sample" problems, but then claimed the study was
about "the population". In research, we describe populations using
"parameters", not "statistics". Statistics are, by
definition, about samples, from which we infer characteristics of
populations.Why don't I "critique the study for [you]"?Can you give me a reason why I should?Shall I blindly and
poorly defend BYU simply because I am LDS and BYU is LDS and my alma mater? That
seems to be what most commenters are doing here. Talk about bias.Given the constraints on accessibility to the Honor Code Office data, I am
smart enough to realize few people are in a position to do a proper statistical
analysis on this issue. Koke, you, and I all lack access to the data. Only an
amateur would try to opine without access to the data.
LDS 2Nice dodge. Isn't it curious how quick you were to
criticize another blogger for his "poor" interpretation of statistics,
but you are completely unwilling to criticize the author of the study."Given the constraints on accessibility to the Honor Code Office data, I
am smart enough to realize few people are in a position to do a proper
statistical analysis on this issue... Only an amateur would try to opine without
access to the data."Isn't that exactly what the author of this
study did, opine on racial biases in enforcing the BYU Honor Code without access
to complete data?So why are you so unwilling to at least critique
the study based on how the author's use of incomplete data could skew results
and lead to erroneous conclusions?Unless, of course, by so doing,
you would be undermining your own personal biases.
"Why don't I "critique the study for [you]"?Can you
give me a reason why I should?"To prove that you're actually
the statistician you claim to be...and to prove that you're actually
trying to be objective, and not just pushing your own agenda.
I M LDS 2So why didn't you effectively trump Deadspin's claimed
statistical authority and show why Deadspin's conclusions based on incomplete
data could be seriously flawed?
I know BYU also has an academic honesty policy which is part of but in substance
different from a lot of the honor code. Maybe a restructuring of the honor code
to separate the academic honesty part from the non-academic honor
code/non-academic morality policy would help people avoid confusion. Other
schools have academic honesty policies that some call their honor codes. Also,
I don't think it's standard for other schools to have people sign the academic
honesty policy. BYU's non-academic policy seems quite a bit different, but the
academic part is of course the same, so a restructuring may help.Let
me be clear that I think BYU has a right to have what they call the honor code,
and every school should have an academic honesty policy. But a little
clarification might help BYU and might also help non-LDS prospective students to
understand the differences between BYU and other universities.
Wow! The witch-hunt mentality around here is stifling.What part of
"I don't have access to the data" don't you people understand?Instead you would like to heap accusation upon speculation and try to
demonize me?Good luck with that. I will not be joining you in your
witch-hunt, nor will I defend the abuse of statistics.I have said
nothing about the Deadspin study one way or the other. My silence on the subject
cannot be interpreted one way or another. For you to do so is exactly the
unsupported speculation and biased posturing I was criticizing. Keep doing it
and you only prove my point.
Your silence as a so-called "statistical" expert is deafening.By your own admission, the study is based on incomplete data, which only
an amature would try to use to form a statistically valid opinion of BYU's honor
code enforcement practices.The fact that you're willing to allow
your school and alma mater to be slandered without criticizing the obvious flaws
in the study, shows that you're only concerned with unsupported speculation and
biased posturing when it calls into question the validity of a study that
supports your own personal bias against BYU.You're defending the
abuse of statistics by your "convenient" silence.
TrueBlue,You prove my point.Without data.
I worked with a property manager for BYU students. We often had to kick kids out
for honor code violations. None of them were black. The black students I knew
there kept the honor code. Athletes might be there for different reasons. But
we really can't expect anyone to say "oh, you got someone pregnant? Well
we'll have to kick you out, unless you're a minority." I'm a
minority, I went to BYU. I loved it. I never saw anyone treated any differently.
In fact, it seems that blacks and whites date each other more at BYU than any of
the other three schools I went to. I am still shocked at those
critical of anything BYU has done on this one. What is our wolrd
coming to????Deadspin is simply showing their own bigotry by
painting an entire people as racist because a minority student made a mistake
and chose to stick with the honor code and accepted responsibility. How foolish
does that make deadspin?
Just read the last comment, first page. I want to say that I know several people
recruited by BYU and none of them were taken to any sex or drinking parties.
That is the most absurd claim made so far. Does anyone take Deadspin