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Comments about ‘Former Cougars find flaws in Deadspin story about BYU athletics’

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Published: Friday, April 15 2011 9:42 a.m. MDT

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Starfarer
Mesa, AZ

Hedgie,

What hypocrisy?

You keep claiming that there are numerous LDS students that are being treated differently. You keep claiming that there is racial discrimination on something you have no statistics, no information, no knowledge of at all.

No matter how many times you keep saying it, all you have is several disgruntled athletes and a professor with an axe to grind.

You claim that you are not a BYU hater, yet the only side you take is the ones that further your own agenda. You continually shine a huge light the negatives and disregard the positives.

That's hypocrisy.

PAC 12 loves U
Sandy, Utah

Remember Jim Mcmahon? He was a white quarterback for the Y, that won the M&M bowl back in 1980. He was a non member and he too violated the Honor Code. Why wasn't he kicked out of school or suspended? Hmmm..... That seems fishy to me!

Pavalova
Surfers Paradise, AU

There are always people who don't get caught, white, black, or purple. Everyone know what they're getting into when going to BYU. It's just that simple.

Read it, Learn it, Live it! If you can't, for your own sake, go somewhere else. Don't waste a year of eligibility trying to figure out if you can live this way or not.

Many more athletes have survived the HC than have not from all nationalities. Let's not make this issue something that it's not please.

ImaCaMan
Redlands, CA

Let the spin - spin - spinning begin!!

Cougar in Texas
Houston, TX

MenaceToSociety

And if these claims are false, what then?

I can think of several white athletes who have been disciplined in exactly the same way for the same or similar reasons. They don't get the pub nor the uproar.

I challenge everyone to listen to the radio interviews with Curtis Brown and Brian Kehl, and also the author, Darron Smith. Brown and Kehl will open your eyes to the reality of the star witnesses in Smith's "research". Smith's own ignorance of the current status (last 6 years) of BYU athletics, of the many non-LDS athletes who have loved their time at BYU, of the disciplined LDS athletes who have come back to BYU, and the revelation that he is seeking publicity for a future book, should cement the opinion that his article is nothing but a hit piece.

Also Oneil Chambers, Tico Pringle, and others quoted in the article have stated that either their comments were altered, or were taken out of context.

No, the deadspin article has already received much more attention than it deserves. If there are legitimate gripes, then they should be presented legitimately.

Koke
Spanish Fork, UT

This is silly. I am a statistician, and as statistics typically are, these statistics have been interpreted by amateurs to draw emotionally satisfying conclusions that no true statistician would ever endorse.

1st rule in statistics: Identify and remove bias. This means that when you are comparing groups you must adjust the populations so that other factors that reasonably contribute to the observed outcome are removed. Thus leaving yourself with unbiased data.

The question is: Are minority athletes held to a higher standard with respect to the honor code than white students?

Before examining the data you must make sure the populations match. Clear points of bias exist if one student is LDS or grew up with honor code beliefs vs a student who didn't. Other interesting points relate to self-reporting. That is, was the student "caught" or did they turn themselves in?"

When you remove data points for these and other obvious sources of bias and compare "apples to apples", you will probably find statistically insignificant differences between the populations.

This, however, is not nearly as emotionally satisfying as declaring bigotry or institutional perfection. There are some bad leaders and students at people at BYU. So what?

JohnJacobJingleHeimerSchmidt
Beverly Hills, CA

While I am not the biggest BYU fan, I do know Deadspin and the site is atrocious and unprofessional. They are bloggers and not real journalists. Their parent company is also responsible for stealing the lost iPhone prototype. Again, no love lost for BYU but Deadspin is not journalism, it is internet garbage.

steel
Murray, UT

I guess mountainman would be an expert on the race card living in Hatenlake Idaho.

Mountanman
Hayden, ID

Is every student who attends BYU and then breaks the honor code caught? No, that's why it is called an HONOR CODE! There is no campus gastapo and each student is on their honor! If a BYU althete or student doesn't live the honor code, then does he/she have any honor? Honor is an interesting word, isn't it? Yes, some have abused it, but what honor do they have in doing so? Honor is reserved for those who have it! That's the point, not who might "get away" with something. Its about honor!

Qwest Perfected
Salt Lake City, UT

This has nothing to do with the byu Utah rivalry.

It is what it is and the numbers speak for themselves. You can come up with whatever excuse you want to, the numbers clearly tell the story.

This isn't limited to just the football program either - it goes accross all sports.

byu lives and dies by their honor code it's just too bad that people can't admit to the results. As hard as it was to lose Brandon Davies this year, the press byu got from it was mostly positive so they loved it, now that it looks ugly, it's nothing but excuses.

Igualmente
Mesa, AZ

A test of honor is only revealed when someone fails that test and admits to it.

Deadspin, nobody's picking on y'all. Stop preachin the hate and oppression. Young men of all color are offered an opportunity to better themselves as an athlete and individual at Brigham Young. At BYU the honor code provides the environment for growth.

Honor, integrity, ethics, and morality is what separates man from the animal kingdom.

Duckhunter
Highland, UT

@qwest perfected and the other ute trolls

qwest but of course it is about BYU and utah because the utah trolls like yourself have made it be about that. Just read the comments. Almost every ute troll that regularly posts on these forums has commented here agreeing with these allegations. That is no surprise to any of us as we know you simply are haters of all things BYU and all things Mormon. You want to believe it, you probably already believed it despite there not really being any evidence of it because your own anti BYU and/or Mormon bigotry shapes your opinions to begin with.

But other than it being something to argue about with ute trolls it is really of no consequence. It is not embarrassing to any of us despite the hope of the ute trolls that it is. We are not concerned that it will cast BYU in a bad light because the truth is most people either don't care or have already made up their mind. You know people like you that blindly hate and believe anything that you think confirm your prejudices.

AZguy
Phoenix, AZ

This is not journalism. This is a biased supposition based on skewed data. I for one would have at least contacted Derwin Gray. He says Mormonism is a cult, but he might have a non-biased take on racism and the honor.

Could they have contacted Brian Mitchell? I would highly regard his opinion as a non-LDS African American former player and coach.

I know there are racist folks at BYU (and in my church for that matter), but to say there is institutional racism at BYU is ridiculous.

On the positive, this article could bring up good questions and a review by the BYU honor code office and athletic department to ensure that non-LDS and minority students are getting the support they need to be successful at BYU.

Idaho Coug
Meridian, Idaho

I personally think true racism rarely occurs anymore in our modern society. Today classism is the primary driver for different treatment. This is often reflected in wealth versus poverty but also just generally between different groups that have little or nothing to do with race (religion, education, interests, geography, gender, etc.).

At BYU, non-LDS (regardless of color) are the clear minority and in most cases have difficulties that LDS do not. I think it is telling that this article quoted Kehl and Brown. Two black athletes who are also LDS. Both articles are missing the point which is that disadvantages or difficulties at BYU are reflected primarily through religion not race.

Non-LDS do not have the same safety net of confession through their Bishop which in turn does not get reported to the HC Office. They also can have a natural struggle with some of the HC issues that are otherwise seen as accepted and healthy in their own group.

I DO NOT think the HC knowingly treats non-LDS differently. But I do think that non-LDS students at BYU naturally have challenges that LDS students either don't have or are more adept at navigating.

Ragnar Danneskjold
Bountiful, UT

I think that the issue sounds like it is based more on religion than it is on race. But for those of you saying that it is no issue AT ALL, take away the opinions of the article and simply look at the numbers they present. It is probably not what it seems, but just looking at their numbers, things look pretty fishy. BYU should look into it a little bit. I'm not saying they are guilty or not guilty, but with something like the honor code, a great deal of effort should be put into making sure it is even handed.

Jax
Bountiful, UT

I have no doubt that some racism exists at BYU. I've seen it with my own eyes. Still, I think much of the disparity among the honor code infractions between Whites and minorities has to do with being Mormon or non-Mormon, not with race.

The problem is that BYU is a Mormon school, and Mormons have a history of racism that they were slow to change when the rest of the country began to reject racist ideas. Racism can still be found in the Mormon scriptures, something that I doubt will ever change. So it isn't really a surprise that when the statistics show a high number of minorities falling victim to the honor code, the most obvious conclusion is that racism is a factor.

IDC
Boise, ID

I was personally discriminated against as a BYU student. I took my 3.7 freshman GPA to get a scholarship and they laughed at me. They said, "let's see, you are white, from Utah, and a mormon. You will have to do better than that." It is about time that my story is heard.

Deadspin - you can contact me through this forum if you want the rest of the juicy details.

Where's Stockton ???
Bowling Green, OH

Hedgie and others
Funny that Bill Cosby has been for several years now, crusading to try and get Black males to stand up and be men and take resposibility for their actions. He specifically at the Urban League in Toledo,Ohio about two weeks ago made a point to go out of his way to point out that Basketball, Football, Baseball and other sports as well as hangin out on the corner hooking up with the local chicks and fathering illigitimate children by several different girls are not concidered majors in college. Stands to reason that if someone like Bill Cosby is making it his personal campaign that his target audience should begin listening instead of making excuses. He's trying to teach responsibility within Black communities and targets Younger Black males specifically about their sexual and moral conduct and the importantnce of actually using their educational opportunities through sports to get a real education... and not for the many Black athletes to consider college as nothing more than a mere stepping stone to the pro's. There must be some basis that there is a need to do so...otherwise Cosby wouldn't be wasting his time like Deadspin.

I M LDS 2
Provo, UT

Koke,

You are a statistician?

No, my friend, you missed the "first rule" of statistics, or science. The first rule is NOT to conjecture or assert anything without DATA to support it!

So what do you do?

Without ANY data whatsoever, you assert: "When you remove data points for these and other obvious sources of bias and compare 'apples to apples', you will probably find statistically insignificant differences between the populations."

As a statistician, you should know you don't test differences between "populations". You test differences between samples and infer the characteristics of the populations. But you didn't even do that.

I think you fail as a statistician. I wouldn't hire you.

royalblue
Alpine, UT

PAC 12 loves U

Jim McMahon was interviewed the other on "Mike and Mike" on ESPN, before this story broke. When asked about Brandon Davies and how Jim managed to remain at BYU, McMahon's response was, paraphrasing, "hang out with girls who know how to keep their mouths shut". They didn't delve any further into the topic.

There are lots of students at BYU who've broken the Honor Code, but who never got caught. It's a certainty that Jim broke the Honor Code, but it's also a certainty that he never turned himself in. There's no evidence that the Honor Code Office learned of Jim's Honor Code violations, but chose to sweep them under the rug.

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