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Published: Friday, March 25 2011 4:20 p.m. MDT

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Duckhunter
Highland, UT

1st of all the reason good coaches leave utah is that utah has been a stepping stone job. The jobs there are perceived as good ones, and they are good ones, because utah is a large school in a large metro area with good funding and a history of success in multiple sports. Cocaches can go there and experience success and elevate their status in the coaching ranks. Those are great reasons for coaches to leave smaller schools and go to utah but it also leads to coaches leaving utah when something perceived as bigger comes along. utah does not have a large batch of people that grow up loving it, feel loyalty to it, and dream about it as their final destination or ultimate stop.

That isn't bad it simply is how it is.

Duckhunter
Highland, UT

Now BYU on the otherhand has a much larger fanbase than utah. It simply does, it is a fact, and there is no reason to get bent out of shape and deny it. It also has a large group of people that grow up thinking of it as the ultimate destination for them. They love the church and the university and being a coach at BYU for most of them is as much a calling as a job. I know that utah fans hate hearing that but it is true and I know coaches there that feel that way. They simply don't want to go anywhere else. They love being here, in "Happy Valley" raising their families and being in a place dominated by people of their faith.

They see BYU as a destination, not a stepping stone, and for many it is a multi generational thing that has been ingrained in them since the day they were born.

That is the difference and whether or not you want to accept it that is the truth. It simply is. Love of BYU itself is a way of life for several million people. That is not the case at utah.

pocyUte
Pocatello, ID

Duck,

I understand your sentiment about Utah being a stepping stone, job. However, other than Meyer, who used it as a stepping stone?

Pimm left after 9 years (a pretty good tenure), for UCSB, hardly a bigger job under strained relations with the department

Majerus left after after 15 years (a very long tenure). Signed with USC for a day, then out of coaching for 3 years than to St. Louis. Again, hardly springboarding himself to a huge program and payday.

McBride: fired after 12 years

Meyer, we know

Whitt: likely isn't going anywhere but has already turned down the Tennessee job.

So again, I understand your sentiment, but 1 coach in the past 30 years moving to big time program doesn't seem to support your assertion.

Duckhunter
Highland, UT

@pocy

But that one coach was almost the only one that was desired enough to move up. But having a bunch of coaches actually move up isn't the point. It is how those coaches view the position they are in. Pimm bailed to go live in Santa Barbara on a houseboat. As much as I love this area that is definately a move up for most people.

The simple dynamics of the positions at each school lend credence to my points. Most of the coaches at utah are not from here and do not have the connection to the university of utah that the majority of BYU's coaches have to it. utah's coaches are usually hired from elsewhere and come to utah for the job opportunity not because of any lifelong love, or connection to, the university. BYU's coaches have so many connections to the university that there are bonds beyond simple employment and a paycheck. So while BYU's coaching pool is definately smaller than utah's its connections to the coaches it hires are much greater and stronger.

continued

Duckhunter
Highland, UT

Now McBride was an obvious exception, he was where he wanted to be and at least to this point Whittingham appears to feel the same way although in his case it is a little difference because even though he did not grow up with a connection to utah he is from here and values being here more than someone who just came from elsewhere for the job.

But all of the arguments ute fans use as to why Whittingham stays are exactly the same as the reasons Rose hasn't left BYU even though he has had opportunities. Let's not forget he turned down his alma mater and hometown to stay at BYU. That is basicly what Whittingham has done. So everytime utah fans start listing the weak reasons why they claim Rose will leave BYU just remember that his situation, and Roses, are very close to the same. Both have stayed when they could have left, both have been at their respective schools about the same amount of time, and both have said they want to continue living here, in Utah.

SeattleUhasabballteam?
Seattle, Wa

@MiP:

Saying that utah is having a difficult time finding a coach or pointing out that there have been 4 losing seasons in 6 years on the hill isn't hate it's just stating the facts. Hill has been worried about Utah bball and has gotten it wrong. The real debate is whether Hill can't pick out a basketball coach or can't let one build a program. Either way Hill is the one to worry about.

Utah'95
FPO, AE

Duckhunter,

Your multi-post argument about "why BYU coaches stay" only touched on a key factor - religion.

Over 25 years, BYU has had 4 head basketball coaches and 3 head football coaches. None of them played for BYU, and only one graduated from BYU. The rest came from somewhere else.

Ladell Anderson - Utah State player, coach, and former Utah assistant
Roger Reid - Weber State player, high school coach before BYU assistant coach
Steve Cleveland - Irvine player, BYU assistant
Dave Rose - Houston player, BYU assistant

LaVell Edwards - Utah State player, master's degree Utah, BYU assistant
Gary Crowton (also known to many of you as He Who Must Not Be Named) - born in Orem, graduate of BYU, graduate assistant at BYU, numerous stops before Head Coach at BYU
Bronco Mendenhall - born and raised in Utah County, Oregon State player, UNM assistant

For 5 of the 7, their "tie" to BYU was their religion. The blurring of boundaries between culture, employer, and religion makes for a pretty permanent bond. Coaching BYU is almost like a Church calling - most don't "asked to be released."

It will probably keep Rose in Provo.

To borrow your phrase, "it is simply how it is."

utahcountyute
Cedar Hills, UT

Ducky

"I could give you a list of coaches at BYU that other schools would want. "

Please do.

Interesting that the biggest and most glaring example would be K Whitt and as you have stated, he is not on your list.

I don't know what you are trying to argue really. I have never said that Dave Rose would have any reason to come to the U. His assistant is another story.

Please list

Duckhunter
Highland, UT

@Utah'95

I agree with you for the most part. Religion is the biggest single factor there and it is a very strong one. But as you listed in your post all 3 of those football coaches are from Utah County regardless of whether or not they played at BYU. They grew up BYU guys even though they didn't play football there so they already had the bond of being from Utah County as well as being members of the church.

Roger Reid was also a Utah County guy and member, Ladell Anderson came out and said BYU was his dream job so he obviously had a desire and attachment that pre dated his hire. Dave Rose also already had family ties to BYU despite not playing there. The only one that didn't have any ties other than religion was Cleveland.

There are thousands of BYU fans all over the country who did not attend BYU but feel that relationship to BYU because of church membership. I have plenty family in Las Vegas that never attended BYU but all are avid fans. Same in California and Texas. It is just the way it is.

Duckhunter
Highland, UT

@utahcountyute

That one really hurt your feelings didn't it? LOL

Well I wasn't trying to but I'll take it anyway. But Whittingham was on my list but I doubt he is any more of a hot commodity than Rose is currently. But of course then there is also Dave Rice, Bronco, Doman, Ryan Roberts (Baseball coach), and multiple assistants in other sports. Remember at BYU all of their minor sports are winning, or competing for, championships and doing well. That makes for coaches being desired. At utah that is not the case. Few, if any, of the sports outside of basketball are winning championships or are even all that good.

Once again that is just how it is. You really shouldn't need to have me tell you that or do you not pay attention to the overall athletic program at the school you claim to support?

Ibleedcrimson
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Why not save yourself a whole lot of typing Duckpunter and say this:

BYU coaches prefer being big fish in little ponds"

But then again your ambition in life is to be the Hedgie of the Utah forums. If you ask me you've made it and then some!!

utahcountyute
Cedar Hills, UT

Duck

"That one really hurt your feelings didn't it? LOL"

Uh, not really. You're dilussional though.

You're not really going to put Bronco on your list are you? After last year? I'm pretty sure there is not an AD who would put a dime on him right now.

Why not list the byU men's vollyball coach? Are they still under NCAA sanctions?

Come on Duck man, K Whitt blasts your whole argument out of the water, so give it up.

Duckhunter
Highland, UT

How does Whittingham blast my argument out of the water? He is the only coach at utah aayone else would possibly want for one while BYU has multiple coaches in multiple sports that could easily go to other schools if they desired.

It just hurts you deeply and emotionally that BYU has a better overall athletic program and a bigger fanbase and a more loyal fanbase that spans generations. As I've said multiple times that is just the way it is.

But just because Whittingham hasn't accepted another job to this point doesn't mean he won't. I would say the same for any of the BYU coaches as well. There is probably some amount of money or some amount of perceived prestige that would convince almost anyone to change locations and positions.

But that isn't what is bothering you here, you know those things are true as well as I do. What bothers you is the actual differences between the two insitutions. You don't like that people do not have the same type of connection to utah that many do to BYU. But it is what it is "sir". It simply is.

pocyUte
Pocatello, ID

Duck

I think this comes down to an agree to disagree scenario.

If I recall correctly, Pimm left due to a fallout with the AD, not move from Utah or the program. Majerus was pretty similar.

If Utah truly were a stepping stone program, nobody would ever stay more than 3-4 years and they would all go to bigger and better programs, when the only coach who followed the path that you outlined (coming to Utah, having success and moving to a bigger program) was Meyer.

Continued

pocyUte
Pocatello, ID

You also bring up other sports;


Of the head coaches of Utah's 17 athletic teams, only 4 have spent less than 6 years at their position (not including men's bb) Those 3 are women's softball, tennis, the swimming coach, and nordic ski coach. However, if you include Elaine Elliott, there are 4 coaches with over 20 years of tenure at their position including Greg Marsden who has been at Utah for 36 years and obviously could have jumped ship many times.

BTW, BYU has 5 head coaches who have less than 6 years at their current position, as well as multiple who have more that 20 years as well.

Ultimately you are going to think what you will about how coaches view coaching at Utah. However, the facts, as I see them would indicate that you argument is founded only in your opinion, not the facts.

Big_Ben
SLC, UT

Guys please, just admit that Duckhunter is right.

The guy is about to have a heart attack. It clearly defines him as a person to make sure that all of us see the world from his myopic point of view.

Duck, yes, BYU from top to bottom right now has a more successful program than Utah. They have many more fans. To say that they are more loyal is silly. Fans always go to see successful programs. If BYU basketball becomes mediocre over the next five years, attendance will dip.

Does that make you feel better, or are we still going to have to send the ambulance your way?

Ibleedcrimson
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Ok if he'll go away, (which he won't). I'll admit he's right. The sooner we ignore him and his ilk the sooner he'll look for another venue to spread his venom.

BYU is now has been and always will be the best program.......

In provo.....

utahcountyute
Cedar Hills, UT

Duck,

Your emotions are showing:)

Duckhunter
Highland, UT

@Pocy

You make some great points. I don't believe that every coach at utah is just looking to move up by the way, many are locals and want to be here. But I do believe for the major sports those are the types of people utah is going to hire. Maybe they change their minds once they get here and decide this really is a great place to live. There is also some truth in that people become comfortable in the places they are and don't want to go to the trouble of changing.

One thing that I'll rebutt is that they will only go after 3-4 years if someone else actually wants them. They may view utah as a stepping stone but they have to perform well enough to take that step. Meyer did and he left. Whittingham has so far and he has stayed but Whittingham is also a local guy with alot of reasons to stay here beyond simply loving the university. Not saying he doesn't love the university just that he has more reasons to stay than a guy like Meyer had.

Either way thanks for having a civil discussion.

pocyUte
Pocatello, ID

Thank you too.

Always good to have a pleasant exchange of ideas

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