RE: LDSBORNThe LDS Church is a world wide organization and does more
than it's fair share to help the poor and needy everywhere.None of
Heavenly Father's children are "less deserving", but surely you don't
expect the LDS Church to carry the entire burden upon their shoulders. Perhaps,
LDSBORN, you could lend a helping hand to the local Native Americans.
This is 2011 and we have how many Native Americans without water? I find this
appalling when the LDS Church has spent thousands bringing water to Africa. I
find it hard to believe that the Church would not do this for the American
Natives in Utah for which we owe a lot. When Brigham Young brought the pioneers
to the valley they were met my the Indians. It was the Indians even after the
military told them to run the Mormons off their land, said no and welcomed them
to stay. This issue is about politics, but it goes a lot further. President
Monson, the Church has an obligation to these people, not only for the land
taken but for the help they give. How can God tell you to set up clean water for
people in other countries when you as a Church a are not taking care of the
people in your own backyard who are your neighbors. Are they less deserving?
-JohnJacobJingleHeimerSchmidtI've family who live on the Navajo
reservation. Others who spend considerable time on the Apache reservation.
Among western US tribes, education is not only discounted, but wo be to the
child who actually excels in his or her studies. He is mocked for embracing the
"white man's ways." The reservation system certainly
ENABLES this kind of attitude. That is the great evil of the dole. But the
reservation system does not REQUIRE it. Individuals do remain free to embrace
education, hard work, and to assimilate into larger society.But keep
blaming me and others for wrongs committed 100+ years ago. Not only will it not
get you or the AmerIndians anywhere, but it will waste energy better spent
elsewhere. I can no more right the wrongs against prior generations of
AmerIndians than anyone can right the wrongs against long since deceased African
Slaves or 19th century mormons.Bad things happened. They can't be
undone now. The real victims are long since departed this world and their
descendants need to live in the world as it exists today rather than clinging to
The atrocities committed against the American Indians are one very good reason
why we today should secure our borders and get serious about interior
enforcement. When a new culture takes over an area, the older, existing culture
and those people who subscribe to it tend not to fare very well.Can't justify what happened to the American Indians. But only a fool would
sign up his posterity to play that role next time around.
-JohnJacobJingleHeimerSchmidtNo, your interpretation of my comment
is pretty much 180 degrees off the mark. Having personally lived on the Navajo
Reservation I can state from personal first hand observation that you are badly
misinformed at best.And no, I worked hard with my own two hands for
everything I have and enjoy.None of the above however changes the
fact that Indian Affairs director Forrest Cuch was an at-will employee who
worked at the pleasure of the Governor.
To "JohnJacobJingleHeimerSchmidt | 9:25 a.m." but even the
"native" americans are not native. Archeological information shows
that they immigrated here from other parts of the world.The only
difference between the Native Americans and the Whites is that the Native
Americans got here first.Next, you have the question of multiple
migrations (pre-historic, and pre-columbus), and who claimed territory and stole
---Rifleman | 11:20 a.m. March 24, 2011 Salt Lake City, UtahIt is
unfortunate that the Native Americans didn't have an immigration policy and that
they didn't enforce it. Whose fault is it that they allowed themselves to be
overrun and driven onto reservations?--Yeah because the slaughter of
men women and children as they fought for their land wasn't
"enforcement"Sooooo let me get this straight, according to
your logic, if hordes of Mexicans or Canadians overran the border, violently
killed men women and children and took the land. Then the "lack of
enforcing" an immigration policy would mean it is ok for them to commit
genocide in this country because they DESERVE IT? That makes EVERYTHING OK
right? Justifiable homicide. That is what you are saying by your own logic.
Just because the Europeans had guns didn't make what they did right. We enjoy
this country today and I include myself in those that actually acknowledge it
was stolen. I at least try to help my fellow America, real American, the
Native American uplift their people instead of spitting on them as I walk by
with a judgmental eye?
---Considering | 11:04 a.m. March 24, 2011 Stockton, UT---You
no doubt checked with EVERY Native American Tribe who the land belonged to
right? How many treaties by the US government were broken when there WAS a
system?Are you serious? They do not shun education, the system and
life forced upon them by these reservations leads to a viscous cycle of
hopelessness. Your statement reeks of White Privileged attitude that assumes
everyone in this country has the same leg up on economic success.Saying you are NOT accountable for this is like enjoying the 60" TV you
grandfather stole but you enjoy the usage of because YOU do didn't steal it.
Your hands are clean for enjoying a stolen product so the people who it was
stolen from should just "get over it"? If your uncle took someone's
home by point of a gun and you lived there would that be ok? If your mother
conned a family out of car and gave it to you does that make it ok?How much stealing is ok to you?
Re: JohnJacobJingleHeimerSchmidtIt is unfortunate that the Native
Americans didn't have an immigration policy and that they didn't enforce it.
Whose fault is it that they allowed themselves to be overrun and driven onto
reservations?The non-issue before us at the moment, however, is the
incontestable right of the Governor to fire an at-will employee. No apology is
required, and none will be issued.
@JohnJacob:European settlers were not "illegal" in that
the AmerInidans had no laws against immigration. There can be no doubt that the
AmerIndians were treated very, very badly. That treaties were repeatedly
broken, and that unspeakable atrocities were committed.Please note
however that these things happened before any of us were born. And they were
started long before either current political party existed. This is not a
partisan issue and anyone who tries to make it one is a total hack. I will not be held to account for the wrong doing of prior generations. Nor
will I expect to be compensated for the wrongs committed against my ancestors
including both those who were AmerIndian as well as those who were mormons in
NY, Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois.The worst thing that was ever done
to the AmerIndians, however, was the reservation system. The evils of the dole
are even worse for the recipient than for those paying the bills. It is not
1900 or 1800. Mormons no longer expect to live an agrarian lifestyle.
AmerIndians need to stop clinging to the past, stop shunning education, and
assimilate into the real world.
If any of you have seen the condition we have left Native Americans in and had
to live it for a month, your tunes might be different. We took the prime land.
left them with desolate unproductive reservations, broke one treaty after
another and killed many of them, maybe you would not act so indignantly toward
Real Americans, the Native Americans.You conservatives and
Republicans always talk about the Rule of Law but ignore how many bald faced
lies were committed in breaking of hundreds of treaties.Now the
little or non informed are chiming in on Native American matters they have NO
@JohnJacob: Not only might they be, they are. And white society is greedy,
which is why we are in the mess we are in.
Interesting how caucasians think they are the native people of this country.
Ever think that you might actually be the Illegals you complain about?
Don't know the specifics here, but have more reason to believe the firing was
justified than not. I suspect that if the firing's rationale was submitted we'd
have Pandora's box to deal with. The water and power shenanigans in Southern
Utah and Northern Arizona suggest that something is terribly wrong. Perhaps the
U.S. Congress should be fired too since they are a bigger part of this than
Utah.This is 2011 and we have how many Native Americans without water?
Between the lines....It sounds like Cuch just wasn't doing his job. Sometimes
people are allowed to continue in political appointments because it's
politically difficult to fire them even if they aren't doing a good job. The
Gov probably decided this had gone on long enough and had the guts to fire him.
That's really all we need to know. Now, he can find someone who will do the
Indians, Most of us want an apology for Herbert for the bad bills that he signed
this year. Namely the amnesty he signed for illegals.--"mohokat"+1
Indians, Most of us want an apology for Herbert for the bad bills that he signed
this year. Namely the amnesty he signed for illegals.
Indian Affairs director Forrest Cuch was an "AT Will" employee meaning
that unless there was an express contract either party could break the
relationship with no liability.Translation: The Governor doesn't
owe anybody an apology. Mr. Coch, just like every other director, knew and
understood that the Governor could keep or fire him for any reason or no reason
whatsoever.When Bill Clinton was elected President one of the first
things he did was fire their travel agency staff.
For clues, read between the lines spoken by Governor Herbert and his
spokeswoman. "someone with passion about their duties and
delivering results""help us get things done"Is the Governor looking for frank input or a "team player?"