Comments about ‘Cautious tone in first GRAMA working group meeting’

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Published: Wednesday, March 23 2011 3:19 p.m. MDT

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Pagan
Salt Lake City, UT

Repeal HB477

Aspiring Theist
Sandy, UT

Whether you are against or for HB477 it seems to me the leadership on this issue has be terrible. I am embarressed for them.

Furry1993
Somewhere in Utah, UT

The ONLY appropriate thing to do is repeal HB477.

People -- please -- don't stop working on the referendum to repeal. I don't trust these legislators to follow through, and get the job done.

Reasonable Person
Layton, UT

Violation of their Fourth Amendment Rights.....when they are using OUR internet connections, devices, and/or email addresses?

Use your own darned phone on your own internet connection AND NEVER use your personal device for state work. If you even do it once, the cross-polination means your personal device is now OUR device.

Look, legislators: the only reason you should be fighting this, is because there's something you are hiding.

Utahns need to start looking at the candidates, rather than the pa(R)ty.

phgreek
Hooper, UT

The 4th amendment stuff is just ridiculous...

"We all have rights, Senate President Michael Waddoups, R-Taylorsville, told the panel. "People have a right to privacy in their private and business dealings."

...and we have a right to ask you to be organized and keep that stuff separated if you feel violated. I'm not, as of yet, thinking we need to be Draconian in enforcing separation of personal and Gov. business...I'm sure family calls, emails, and sends text messages...but you are taking our good will in allowing you some flexibility and clobbering us with it...it is enfuriating

Sen. Curt Bramble, R-Provo, said he has four different lives his public life as a part-time legislator, his private life, his professional life as an accountant and his ecclesiastical life as a church leader and only records from the first should be available.

...And I can argue that 1 of 4 belong on accounts I pay for Mr. Bramble. Again if you are going to whine about the flexibility we allow, and club us with it, then keep separate accounts...

Where does this mentality come from?

Kimball Woodruff
Salt Lake City, UT

I prefer that the legislature not repeal HB477. The citizens can then show them what democracy means.

dave
Park City, UT

phgreek | 4:23 p.m. March 23, 2011

You beat me to it. Perfect summation of the two incongruous quotes by Waddoups and Bramble.

The arrogance of these people is appalling.

Fred44
Grantsville, Utah

This is really simple. If you want your conversations private, don't use your state issued cellphone, your state issued computer, or have the conversation in your state issued office. Really is it that complicated?

Say No to BO
Mapleton, UT

Life races on as we get older, so forgive me if I am mistaken.
Didn't our elected leaders just meet recently to discuss and debate state laws? It seems like just a couple of weeks ago that they were all together up on the hill.
I sure hope we're not paying for this little production of political theater.

RShackleford
Saint George, UT

I am going to guess that the Legislators will tame down The Bill so "We The People" will drop the full repeal referendum on a November ballot.

Then, next year, they can add a little more to hide their shenanigansns and in about three years we will have the same thing as bill 477...or worse!

Even if our legislators repeal and drop the complete bill; We know what they are up to! I Hope that "We The People" will put a referendum on the ballot to stop any further manipulation of the GRAMA records law.

JWB
Kaysville, UT

The Governor, House and Senate are forgetting the reason people are upset over this bill. HB477 addresses an important subject. It is not just the specific bill but the whole shortcut process of the Senate and House trying to ramrod this through. Two hours in the Senate and a little more in the House after the Legislature General Counsel had it for a month. The Governor knew what had happened in the process before he signed it. The Governor speaks from both sides of his mouth by stating, "This should be the most open, deliberative, transparent discussion on any issue maybe in recent memory here in the state of Utah." The outcome he already decided when he signed the bill, which was not any of the words above in that process. This group of people are a just a sounding board with some few selected Senators and Representatives. These individuals were civil today with David Kirkham stating everything is great, that is not what the meeting is about. It is about making sure government in Utah is open on all issues, not just this small piece which stymies all the rest of the process with immigration, budget or education.

freedomforthepeople
Sandy, UT

We cannot have freedom and a representative government if the people treat their volunteer legislators with such contempt and hatred as posters thus far have treated them.

It is very popular in Utah to hate the legislature, no matter what they do. The non-thinking among us (many whom seem to post on these comment sections) open their full hatred upon volunteer citizen legislators who are trying to serve their fellow citizens.

Why all the hatred? Is it the classic envy? Is it the uneducated class warfare perpetrated by arm-chair quarterbacks?

It certainly is harming our community, and the press is responsible for it.

Legislators are volunteers. They were elected by US. They are doing their job as best they can. They should have privacy and if you strip them of it, we will all pay the price. Capable, smart people, seeing the risks will refuse to serve.

Our legislators will then be less capable and less smart. We will all suffer.

I cannot believe the DNews and KSL and other media outlets are so unashamedly promoting their own agenda and tricking people into believing HB477 is a problem for the people. Shameless.

JWB
Kaysville, UT

To freedomforthepeople 7:04 p.m. I believe may be missing the point with HB477. It is not really the bill, per se. It is the process they took to move it through in hours and days from beginning to end. I don't believe there is a feeling like you are expressing. Legislators know what they are getting into when they run for elected office. That process culls people out. Legislators are smart but also listen and feel for the people in the bills that go through the process. DNews and KSL and the SLTribune are not tricking people. People are the government and want to ensure their rights and interests are considered in the governmental process. The legislators that understand now that this specific bill was fast-track understand they might have been misled or persuaded unduly to vote in a certain way. Voters take that into consideration when they county and state conventions meet the next time we have elections. As you know, not everyone votes for elected officials but that is what they should do. People become more involved and the Senators or Representatives that didn't have an opposition may have one next time

EJM
Herriman, UT

@Freedom: with all due respect I can only hope that you are trying pull a" funny". I don't know where to begin refuting your postings. Let's start with volunteer legislators. They receive compensation,benefits,gas mileage,and free phones with all the bells and whistles.

The uneducated class warfare? So these individuals are educated and everyone else should just go blindly obedient because they are smarter than the rest of us? Sounds like we should just have a ruling class and then everyone else. I would love to serve as a legislator but unfortunately I am not an R. I am an American. We tend to forget that that is more important than the D or the R.

The Desnews is serving the people. All the people. Not just the R's or the D's or the LDS or the Catholics or whomever. Their agenda is to do exactly what they are doing. It would be shameful if they did anything less.

Fred44
Grantsville, Utah

freedomforthepeople,

Lets be truthful here. These folks ran for an office, volunteering is working in your local little league concession stand or the food bank. These folks are compensated. No they are not getting rich but $15-20,000 a year with a very good health insurance plan is not a bad part-time job. Ten years in the legislature buys you lifetime insurance, that is not a bad perk. No one is taking away their privacy. If they use their own phones and computers not state supplied phones and computers they have all the privacy they want. Do the business of the state in the open and their will be no problems.

I will grant you that the newspapers and tv stations have jumped on this one hard because it impacts them, but it doesn't make what the legislature did right. When you CHOOSE to run for office you give up some of your privacy, that is simply reality. If they want to maintain complete privacy I would suggest they get out of politics.

utahprincipal801
Sandy, UT

Elected Officials and Government Workers: Use the phone, computer or other electronic device I pay for, and I have the right to expect access to the communication on it. The public provided these tools to you to do the public's business. Do your private business on your own devices. How hard is that? There are plenty of perks that you elected people receive beyond the financial. I don't think any of you are so pure to serve strictly for altruistic reasons. You all receive many kinds of rewards for serving. I have a right to check up on you, because you all take money and other various perks from people who want to influence you (and do). Most of you won't allow ethical regulations that folks in other states now operate under. Am I, the average citizen out there, skeptical about how much we can trust you? Yeah, I am. Especially since you hold a whole lot of communication behind our backs in closed causes now. Get off your arrogant high horses, repeal this bill, and stop patronizing the public.

freedomforthepeople
Sandy, UT

Fred - the legislators are willing to give up SOME of their privacy and always have. Things are evolving now so they are not safe from voyeuristic media. You cannot tell me that you don't agree the media has demonstrated over and over that they are not concerned about people's personal welfare when compared with the opportunity for a story. Many innocents have been tried and convicted in the media, and the media doesn't bother to retract, or even have the decency to run the story when they are acquitted or the charges are dropped.

If it were happening to you, I believe the story would quickly change. Currently, the media can request whatever they choose at the expense of the taxpayer, and go on a "hunt" for juicy gossip.

Of course that is not the story you get from the media itself - why would they present that view?

JWB - you are being tricked by one of the oldest tricks in the book - "it isn't the bill, it's the process". This is a tried and true strategy, used for ages. Take the focus off the issue and accuse people of something less tangible.

phgreek
Hooper, UT

@ freedom

trying to remain tactful here. I heard about HB477 through the media, and read it myself...I sought out folks who can interpret these poorly written "Bills", and they confirmed my suspicions...also all of them happened to be Republicans...again no bias. I will admit, in addition to my research the local papers alerted me to additional issues in the bill...their job I'd say...but I don't need an editorial to tell me a dead Carp stinks.

This privacy thing is a complete farse...if you are organized and thoughtful, and take the time as a legislator to define your own communications policy, you should never have an issue where personal communications are in jeopardy. And spare me the goofy excuse that constituents might be compromised. There are already laws and provisions in GRAMA to protect that stuff. If those are inadequate, then address them...thats not at all what we have in HB477.

This was DC politics, and some Chicago style in there based on the Heber Rep's. comments. "Volunteers" in any endeavor who are self-serving need not apply. You can pick them out because they use their volunteerism as a shield.

benlistening
Cedar City, UT

I would venture a guess that not one of our elected officials campaigned on their intention to make Utah the most secretive state in the union, or do away with e-signatures, or import guest workers to take our jobs. Make a list of everyone who voted for these bills and vote for the other candidate next election.

JMT
Springville, UT

Ah, the Sovietification of America....the progressives and their marching drum beat of populism. Does anyone on this board even know the history of GRAMA and FOIA? You think you own these legislators? Do you think you are entitled to their every communication?

Sadly, a little history and truth will never last the great fantasy being lived out by the radicals. But by all means, enjoy your pitchfork party.

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