It is interesting, for all the attacks on Christ Buttars elsewhere, when he
votes against a law like he did here, no one points out that this shows that it
is important to have principaled legislators who consistently hold to their
principals instead of having centrists moderates who seek ways to advance their
careers.It is people who really believe in principals who are needed
to stand against such things as this. Thus Buttars, as a strong believer in his
principals, stands up against this while other members of the party in power
have a weaker belief in principal and do little.The fact of the
matter is that things would go a lot better if people let go of much of the
hateful invective in political discourse. They would also improve if people did
not try to score political advantage at every turn.Most of the calls
for not trying to link religion and politics ring hallow because they come from
people who have claimed that those who hold the other view from them on health
care reform are inherently evil. I for one, think that a persuasive
moral argument can be made on either side.
Pagan, Who finds raping children to be funny has the audacity to attack
people for wanting to limit the amount of money that the government has to shell
out in meeting overly broad searches of documents. I disagree with
this bill, but evil men like Pagan need to be exposed in their hypocracy. I think that Herbert's tactics were best here. His veto would have
been a senseless act of martyrdom, and would have ignored the fact that the
current conditions of communication are not the ones the original law was
written for.It is better to have a workable bill, than an
unneccesarily repressive one. Beyond that, Herbert maintains the right to veto
later, when the realization of how widely this bill is opposed may have swayed
more opinions. He has not signed the law.
NFIS totally mis-characterizes the government of Utah. Considering that Becky
Lockhart is the speaker of the Utah House it is time for people to stop
lambasting Utah's leadership as male. It is also time for people to stop acting
like religious uniformity should be counted as the defining characteristic of a
group of politicians.Many of the most vocal enemies of the bill,
such as Joel Campbell, are also Latter-day Saints. The attempt to insinuate
that there is a connection between religion and one side of this bill is the
type of stupid injection of religion into politics that is one of the causes of
Utah being as one-party in its politics as it is.If the Democrats
would learn to stop lashing out at Republican actions in Utah as advancing
Mormonism or characteristic of what Mormons stand for, they would majorly
increase their chances of election. Every time they mockingly refer to
"conservative Mormons" as supporting anything, they are killing their
Why did Herbert pressure the legislature into recalling the bill instead of just
vetoing it? Were these potentially veto over-riding majorities that passed the
JohnJacobJingleHeimerSchmidt: "This bill brought to you by the
same party (Republicans) that gave banks 700 billion in bailouts. Thanks Bush
and Republican party" The constitution is very plain on this
matter. The president can only sign into law legislation that has been drawn up
and passed by Congress. If Congress does not pass the Emergency Economic
Stabilizaion ACT of 2008, Bush could not sign it. While Bush made
plenty of mistakes and was not the smartest president we have had, you can
neither solely blame or credit Bush for TARP. I would suggest that you start
reading the congressional record. For example 40 democrats including Obama
himself, Harry Ried and Hillary Clinton all voted for TARP. Only 9 Dem senators
voted against TARP 2008. The senate version was co-sponsored by none other than
Harry Ried and Robert Byrd. There are enough legislators from both
parties who helped TARP 2008 pass. Your focus and compulsion to blame Bush for
TARP gives Obama, Ried, and Clinton carte blanche immunity for their role in
@Milo P Otis: "Legislators are also citizens and should not have to give
up their own cell phones or personal laptops for public inspection."If they are conducting public business on their cell phones and laptops
these communication devises should not be off limits. After all, there
certainly must be delete buttons on them.
Curious.....RedShirt, Mike Richards, Voice of Reason, KM, Uncle
Charles, and so many other daily Ulta-Nationalist, Conservative
"Constitutionalist" commentors have laid ever so quietly about
HB477.Here's an old saying -- Silence is Consent....
This is what happens when people blindly vote republican or democrat. Tyranny
I haven't read HB 477 and so can't offer an informed opinion on it
specifically.But I do believe that certain things should be kept
private. Most notably, if a constituent speaks with her legislator that
conversation and the details in it should not be considered a public record. I
think is true whether the conversation takes place in person, over the phone,
via a text message, or in an email. If State law does not already allow these
kinds of communications to be kept private, the law should be changed. It the
law does protect these communications, then I'm not sure any other changes are
needed.That all said, I wonder how many here with very strong
opinions have actually read the bill and KNOW for themselves what it does or
doesn't do. I freely admit I haven't read it (yet). How many others have? Or
is everyone relying on the media accounts on which to base an opinion?
"We're listening to the constituents,..."No, you are not
listening. We want OPEN records not this abomination of a bill. Government
works for the people (or it is supposted to anyway). YOU report to US, not the
other way around.
I can't believe it! I actually agree with Buttars on something.
When it comes down to the business of the people of Utah, access to legitimate
information is a good practice, transparency is reassuring, and reduced risks
for corruption is a good thing. A prominent Republican once said. "TRUST
BUT VERIFY". What has the legislators got to hide from the
citizens and people of Utah?
The Republicans are acting like the Democrats in Congress. Shoving junk like
this down our throats without discussion. The government should be open and
accessable. If the legislature can't stand the scrutiny, then they should leave
Considering that the majority of our State Legislature is LDS, maybe it would do
them some good to reread D&C 121. Something about unrighteous dominion by
those who assume a little authority. As a voter, this is very disturbing to say
the least, and I/we expect better out of our elected officials. A sad state of
the State indeed.
Fees to cover costs...read as "charge enough and they won't bother
Give Utah the gift of a gift ban to all legislators as fast as the anti-grama
bill was passed.
This bill should be scrapped, and nothing similar should ever take its place.That being said, we need to be sure that this isn't hidden until the
furror dies down, and then gets passed sub rosa as part of one of the
supplementary sessions the legislature will be having. We need to be vigilent
to make sure this type of thing NEVER comes into force and effect, and hold
accountable anyone who voted for it.
Also, my Senator -- Luz Robles (Democrat) voted NO
HB477 imprementation has been pushed back to July 1 by the Utah Legislators.
Fortunately, the media will be very interested in how this bill is
being revised and will undoubtedly keep us informed of it's progress.Some of the previous comments have been curious as to what party is
responsible for most of the votes that actually passed this bill into a
veto-proof position on March 4.Below is a breakdown per a listing of
the Utah Senators and Representatives who voted for this bill In
the Senate, a total of 21 Senators voted for this bill: 20
Republicans voted for this bill, and 1 Democrat voted for this
bill.In the House, 61 voted Yea: 56 Republicans voted
Yea, and 5 Democrats voted Yea.In the Senate, 1
Republican (Sen. Buttars) voted No, and 4 Democrats (Sen.
Morgan, Romero, Mayne, and Jones) voted No.In the House, 2
Republicans voted No, and 12 Democrats voted No.The time for a one-party system has come to an end. I know how I'm going to
vote next time.
I hope this will make moderate Republicans in Utah realize the danger of an
overwhelming one-party system. As can be clearly seen in the last couple of
years, one-party rule rewards ideological extremism, secrecy, and corruption.The fact is, most democratic candidates in Utah for state house and
senate are very moderate Democrats (and in fact many are moderate Republicans
who have been shunned by the extremists in their party). They often have views
that, like those of most Utahns, tack towards centrism and moderation rather
than extremism and party-first attitudes.Perhaps most importantly,
democratic candidates in Utah do not take their constituents for granted! They
know they have to listen to prove their dedication to public service.It would serve our state well to have more balance in the legislature. Then
the GOP would have these "what was I thinking?!" bills, like the food
tax, the HB477 debacle, etc. Wake up, Utahns! Show your GOP state Rep or
Senator that he has to earn your vote by considering the moderate Democrat
running against him!!!
I am as conservative as they come and am glad they made the right call on
pulling this one. Dumb trying to push it through like Obamacare. Talk about
the pot calling the kettle black. We don't needy pass it to find out what is in
it. Do the right thing. You definitely have to explain your voting record now.
We are intelligent and don't need the paternalism of our elected leaders. We
(the constiuents on both sides of the isle) don't want a corrupt government and
want to know what business you are doig and with whom you do it. It goes both
EVERY legislator who voted for the bill should be taken to task for their vote
for it!!! I guess when the 'fishing' expedition
revealed legislators get 95% of their campaign contributions from Special
Interests and only 5% from their constituents, I guess it touched a nerve. DEMOCRATS - THANK YOU FOR STANDING UP FOR THE RIGHTS OF THE
PEOPLE IN UTAH TO HAVE OPENNESS IN GOVERNMENT!!!!
JohnJacob,Are you LDS? I'm glad you told us the second time,
because I wasn't clear the first time when you said "I'm LDS." Tell
us again. I've realized that half of the time when someone claims they are
something on these boards they are not that thing.
Personally, I asked my State Senator to vote against this bill. Just as soon as
I found out about it, I e-mailed him. It was too late because of the
"rush" to get it done. And I don't care who reads that e-mail because
I documented where I used the GRAMA ACT twice to get information from local
government (just three total pages of information) and my result was 0 - 2. If
this passes, there's no reason to think it would ever be different. If
anything, we need MORE access, not less. The citizens need to have
the media donate space where this issue can be raised again about two days
before the next election with a tally of who voted for it, who encouraged it to
be rushed through, who insisted it was "good business for the State"
and a summary of those who have since come out against it, along with the
reasons the Legislature suddenly recalled it. PLEASE REMEMBER THIS, VOTERS!!
I think there are a few education bills that need to be recalled as well.
Re: JohnJacob... Actually, the Democrats were in charge on Congress. Pres. Bush
went along with the bank bailouts but Congress is in charge of the money and
Congress was solidly Democratic, not Republican (I'm not letting Republicans off
the hook). I just wanted to make sure that the facts were straight.
If this becomes law, there had better be NO complaints from Republicans that
Democrats are not in favor of "transparency."
It is clear that the public outcry has been heard. I hope we don't forget this
issue over the summer. Redistricting is coming up. Keep watch!
This bill (HB477) if not dishonest and corrupt is at least an insult to every
honest Utah citizen. I am shocked at this procedure after hoping for a new and
honest legislature. I have vowed to NEVER again vote for ANY politician that
approves any part of this bill. It is #1 on my list of things to remember next
election. I hope others will do the same.
Since this bill also would cover Democrats, why aren't they participating in
revising this bill?
These Republicans are putting back into practice the controlled information that
Nixon, Communism has in place to keep the truth and needs of the people from the
people. Nazis were about twice as bad as these Republicans are but they are
gaining speed. We need officials who don't make excuses but really love America
and looks out for Americans and not just for themselves.
Translation: "We stepped just a tad past the line where we could get away
with pushing it through, so we're pulling it until the whole thing blows over
and we can try again."Still, good for Herbert for threatening
I think the bill shouldn't be pushed back but should be scrapped! This bill is
un-American. It reduces government transparancy and enables an already
overbearing legislature and their lobbiests. We will be the laughing stock of
National news. Veto the bill and let the state senators take the
heat if they override it. Then, Utahns need to quit submitting a straight
"R" ballot and get these Monarchs out of office!Please
write the governor and tell him how you feel on this Bill. I just did and it
serously took 5 minutes. Since they won't let me post the URL, google
"write governor Herbert" and you'll get a link for his office.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. I am LDS and proud of it but this is the
legislature of the people and not a theocracy. I don't care how many of those
legislators are LDS, it doesn't make them perfect.
Glad the GOP leaders will listen to the Gov (and good decision on his part).
Unfortunate they didn't listen to the public last week when they railed this
down our throats. They could have focused on more relevant issues with limited
remaining time in session.As a republican & Utah, thoroughly
This bill brought to you by the same party (Republicans) that gave banks 700
billion in bailouts. Thanks Bush and Republican party.I am LDS but
I don't blindly vote Republican. This bill is lunacy.
They are using a jackhammer to tweak something that needs a phillips
screwdriver. Makes you wonder what they have to hide?The
cost of an open government is that you have to deal with records requests.
Shutting them down by over charging, or out waiting those who ask for the
records is opens the door to corruption.
"legalimmigrant" I've wondered whether the immigration bills are what
have brought the desired "secrecy" issues to the forefront. We all
know that the amnesty lobbyists are doing THEIR BEST to preserve jobs for
unethical employers. Maybe those legislators' would rather texts from the
lobbyists DIDN'T SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY!Guv: please veto ANY
"guest worker" bills. Actual Utah citizens need the jobs! There's
also lots of good reasons to veto the records bill!
They told us last year that they didn't need the Citizens' Ethics Initiatives
because the open access to public records would keep them honest. Hmmmmm.
I hope gov Herbert also recalls HB116 'Guest Worker Program Act' or he won't
have my support in the next elections.
All this is Corruption and hiding of the truth. Notice how the cockroaches run
now that someone switched the light on? Where are you Tea party people on this
or because it is backed by Republicans it is ok?
Recalled beacuse they have not fully thought it through- and these are the
people we entrust with our laws and the ability to think clearly and not react
to the whims of the day- very sad- pass a law then think about the implications-
that is just what we were hoping for- Patriot Act, No Child Left Behind- just a
couple of examples that come to mind- now I expect that at the federal level- I
was hoping Utah was better- guess not
Now they're going to take the time to study the issue?! I guess things
"festered" over the weekend.
It's great that the voters of Utah are paying attention and reacting to what our
legislators are doing.We may have to keep a close eye on the
redistricting process also. I can see how tempting it may be for the majority
party to ensure their own re-elections by manipulating the district boundaries
-- again. It's important that the media has access to the
intentions of our State officials so that we may be quickly and accurately
Veto it. The claims of: Back room dealings Shady
goverment and Chicago style politics... has now been voted,
and supported by Utah's legislature. How sad it is then, that people
continue to vote for one party, when that party feels it does not need to report
to the people.
So after rushing the bill through, discovering that people are not going to
stand for it and politicians will encounter reprocussions of this self-serving
legislation, they suddenly decide they need more time.I fear that
means they will take time to let the anger die down and then have the bill
To veto it would take bravery.
This bill is such an outrage, especially after all the corruption we've seen in
the legislature in the last couple of years."Nobody here in the
henhouse but us chickens!" says the fox.
If Herbert does not veto this bill, his open disdain for the Utahn people will
be complete.This is nothing but a blatant attempt by "our"
corrupt and "good 'ol boy" Legislature to protect their backroom and
What "options"?He has NO OPTIONS.Veto it.
The reality of this is that if Gov Herbert signs the bill, there is no question
it will be challenged in court and most certainly thrown out in short order.
Government employees whether elected or hired are just that, employees of the
citizens of Utah. They are accountable to us, and to no one else. The people's
business as conducted on capital hill is our business and as such is and should
be open to public scrutiny. This openness enables the people to be made aware
if their state employees are doing the job they are supposed to, or if they are
incompetant in their responsibilities and need to be replaced.
State Legislators are given cell phones and laptops, I believe. If so, any
communication on those devises should be available for public inspection and
used only for the public business. Legislators are also citizens and should not
have to give up their own cell phones or personal laptops for public
inspection.Like campaign contributions, do NOT co-mingle your
personal and public contributions and expenditures. Keep them separate. What
you do as a private citizen is your business however; remember that when you
chose to run for office, you are living in a bubble. Your lives and even your
family lives will be scrutenized. It goes with the territory
Not only does this bill cause fear and distrust of our state government, this
will reach out and cause difficulties for two prominent figures.As the
world is aware of the fact that Utah government is largely run by LDS gentlemen,
this is going to be a major problem for Mr. Romney and Mr. Huntsman should they
choose to run for the Presidency of the United States. The public has been
criticizing the Obama administration for their hidden agenda.Utah has just
"one upped" the Democrats with this bill.