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BYU basketball: Danny Ainge expresses views on BYU Honor Code

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  • MacNasty Rexburg, ID
    March 4, 2011 11:08 p.m.

    Brian @1:35 pm

    You answered the question, "have you ever signed a contract?" Apparently you did, the BYU honor code. Your being an athlete once at BYU means nothing to me. Hundreds of thousands of people also signed the honor code, and out of principle, they kept their word. Anybody signing the honor code and not liking it later on, can withdraw from BYU at any time.

    Your vitriolic hyperbole comparing BYU's honor code to servitude and slavery is astoundingly nonsensical and without any merit whatsoever.

    BYU, like real life, places personal responsibility on people, and just like real life, an individual's choices and actions bring consequences whether they be good or bad.

    Once again, wise up Brian.

  • Cold Ute West Valley City, Utah
    March 4, 2011 10:28 p.m.

    To hedgehog | 2:21 p.m.

    Every employment contract and salary negotiation I have had in my long career has been private and behind closed doors. Most employers do not even allow salary discussion between employees. Why should player negotiation be any different? Maybe only to you.

    Again, BYU did the right thing at the right time. The Honor Code is important and if students dont like or as Brian argues change during their education then they are welcome to leave. There are many others who will live by the Honor Code who are more than willing to attend.

  • NevadaCoug Overton, NV
    March 4, 2011 8:51 p.m.

    Honor code proceedings are confidential. As Ainge said, we just don't know all the details of Davies' situation. Nor will we ever know.

    Unfortunately, as BYU Basketball player, Davies' was in a very public position. He can't just disappear from the team without questions being raised. The University could have just said he had left the team for "personal reasons." But that would still have led to a lot of other questions about what those personal reasons were. I think the University had Davies' permission to let people know it was an Honor Code issue. I don't know that for sure, but that is what I believe.

    Ainge explained things exceptionally well. If you haven't (which judging from a lot of the comments, a lot of people fit that group), listen to his interview. I especially liked the part where he was talking about guys he played with in the NBA and their lifestyle choices. The quote, "who's happy now?" was right on.

    Davies will be much happier for facing up to this. I cheer for him now, and will in the future when he's back on the court.

  • CG Orem, UT
    March 4, 2011 8:03 p.m.

    Dektol

    Talking to a church leader should be confidential.

    --Nothing Brandon said to any church leader was ever revealed to the public.

    byu and shills... do anything possible to try and justify crucifying this kid

    --Nothing could be further from the truth; BYU is doing everything they can to try to help Brandon

    for being normal.

    --There's nothing "normal" about reneging on a promise

  • Dektol Powell, OH
    March 4, 2011 6:35 p.m.

    Talking to a church leader should be confidential. This kid could have married the girl in a civil ceremony. Instead byu and shills like the whiner Ainge do anything possible to try and justify crucifying this kid for being normal.

  • TrueBlue Orem, UT
    March 4, 2011 5:46 p.m.

    BYU basketball: Danny Ainge expresses views on BYU Honor Code

    hedgehog | 2:21 p.m. March 4, 2011
    Ann Arbor, MI
    "Both Ainge and Holmoe are prime examples bending the honor code to it's limits. Though not dishonest, certainly not honorable."

    Feb. 26, 2011 - BYU at SDSU

    hedgehog | 11:20 a.m. Feb. 26, 2011
    "Just to let you know how confindent I am in a kewgar loss today. I will stop any and all posts on tds articles for the remaining basketabll season if the kewgs somehow pull out a win."

  • SportsFan Orem, UT
    March 4, 2011 5:26 p.m.

    You're welcome to your opinion, hedgehog, misguided as it may be.

    Millions of deals are negotiated behind closed doors every day. If you think that's dishonest or abnormal, then you don't live in the real world.

    What exactly did Holmoe do to bend the rules of the Honor Code?

    And, don't come back with your tired spin that BYU had some sort of obligation to tell the MWC of its plans to leave the conference before those plans were finalized. The ONLY obligation BYU had to the MWC was to announce BYU's plans to leave before the deadline.

    Utah didn't announce it was leaving the MWC until AFTER the Utes had already cut a deal with the PAC 10 BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.

  • CJ Miles Dallas, TX
    March 4, 2011 5:23 p.m.

    Not a big Ainge fan but that was an excellent interview. If you have not listened to it, it is well worth the time.

  • hedgehog Ann Arbor, MI
    March 4, 2011 2:21 p.m.

    "There's absolutely NOTHING dishonest about negotiating a deal behind closed doors"

    sportsfan,

    Both Ainge and Holmoe are prime examples bending the honor code to it's limits. Though not dishonest, certainly not honorable.

  • Mormon Ute Kaysville, UT
    March 4, 2011 1:59 p.m.

    pburt,

    You have to click on the link to the Boston radio program to listen to Ainge's comments.

  • Brian Utley Freedom, IN
    March 4, 2011 1:35 p.m.

    Dear McNasty...

    The question is...is it, and has it always been, an unfair contract. Some contracts go too far. Contracts that establish human servitude or slavery might be considered as going too far, for instance. That is the question I'm raising here. And really it is only a question...not a declaration of truth. I was an athlete at BYWoo...and I changed a lot of things about myself while I was there. And I even kicked myself off the team, as a matter of principle. But maybe the school goes too far...with this and a lot of things. Ask some of the faculty members about their "implied" contracts. Maybe these excesses actually disqualify BYU as a bona fide university. Questions are questions are questions. There's nothing wrong with playing the question game.

  • BirdmanKen Fishers, IN
    March 4, 2011 12:44 p.m.

    Wow, Ainge's commentary on the whole thing is simply excellent. Well worth the listen.

  • xscribe Colorado Springs, CO
    March 4, 2011 12:25 p.m.

    There really is no argument to make here: The honor code is what it is, and BYU upheld it, end of story. There should be no re-evaluation or first-time offense consideration, or else the school's integrity goes out the window. However, how did Jim McMahon ever make it through for four years?

  • fresnogirl Fresno, CA
    March 4, 2011 11:25 a.m.

    It's interesting to see how many counterpoint BYU's integrity (in enforcing the Honor Code at such an inopportune time) with other Universities who have adopted a win at all costs attitude. In a world of Bernie Madoffs, many find that integrity refreshing.

  • TrueBlue Orem, UT
    March 4, 2011 11:24 a.m.

    Another Perspective

    Your "first offense" argument is just a red herring.

    Would another university expell a student for stabbing someone in a bar brawl or for seriously injuring someone while driving drunk, even of it were a first offense?

    Your real issue is what you consider a serious issue versus what BYU considers a serious issue.

    In other words, you expect BYU to follow your personal standards instead of BYU's standards.

  • ida-coug Pocatello, ID
    March 4, 2011 11:20 a.m.

    "brian"
    Its a private university. They can do what they want. If you don't believe that they have enough academic freedom the you can go to Berkely.

    "another perspective"
    Same as above.........

  • SportsFan Orem, UT
    March 4, 2011 11:10 a.m.

    byu_num_1

    Your entire argument is fundamentally flawed because Danny Ainge's job as GM of the Boston Celtics is to negotiate the best deals possible for the Celtics.

    If anyone was "dishonest" in negotiating that deal, it would have been Kevin McHale, whose job as GM of the Timberwolves was to negotiate the best deals possible for Minnesota.

    There's absolutely NOTHING dishonest about negotiating a deal behind closed doors. That's standard business practice.

    Besides, if the deal had been as grossly one-sided as you're suggesting, it would have been shot down by the NBA.

  • pburt Logan, UT
    March 4, 2011 11:03 a.m.

    Somebody please help me out: the beginning of the article says Ainge offers, "One of the most interesting, and insightful, explanations of the honor code." But I don't see any explanation from him in the article, and just snippets in the links. Is there a link to a quote from the radio program I'm missing?

  • CG Orem, UT
    March 4, 2011 11:00 a.m.

    Brian Utley

    Your post is so naive it's laughable.

    Most schools have some sort of school policy regarding personal behavior. Very few are as stringent as BYU's and there may not be a signed contract involved, but the rules are still there and by enrolling, students agree to follow those rules.

    Some schools, believe it or not, are even more restrictive than BYU. At military academies, for example, they tell you what time to get up, what time to be on the parade ground, and how many hours a day you are required to study.

    As with any other school, however, if a BYU student changes his mind about the school and the rules the student has agreed to follow, the student is free to go to withdraw and choose a different school.

    Nobody is forced to stay at BYU.

  • MacNasty Rexburg, ID
    March 4, 2011 10:57 a.m.

    So Brian, let's expand on your train of thought. Let's continue to use the example of a young man who changes his mind "during his student experience" and decides unilaterally that a university's (go ahead pick any university) minimum GPA requirements are no longer for him. He changes his beliefs concerning grades and feels that his educational experience is soley up to him. The university suspends him from his athletic experience. How thoughtless universities are to place academic performance requirements on their students regardless if they are student athletes or not!

    Do you make car payments Brian? How about mortgage payments? Have you ever read or signed a contract at all? If so, have your ever decided that the terms no longer apply to you because your belief system has changed?

    Every university has it set of policies of conduct to which student athletes and students in general must adhere, and yes, moral behavior is part of them (i.e. cheating). If a student does not adhere, well, there are plenty willing to step in that will.

    Wise up Brian.

  • BluCoug Provo, UT
    March 4, 2011 10:42 a.m.

    @ Mormon Ute

    Couldn't have said it any better!

  • Another Perspective Bountiful, UT
    March 4, 2011 10:41 a.m.

    Just because BYU as a private University has a right to such a strict and unforgiving honor code doesn't mean its good or optimal to have one, expecially one that is so unforgiving.

    Does it really make sense to kick someone out just for some of the things BYU kicks students out for, and on a first offence? I question this. Time for a re-evaluation.

  • SoCal Roger Costa Mesa, CA
    March 4, 2011 10:16 a.m.

    Rules are rules.

    I live in SoCal. One of the things that gets me here is how celebrites get seemingly special treatment when they run afoul of the law.

    (OJ, Lindsay L, Charlie S)

    I am tired of seeing how those with influence can get away with lighter sentences for breaking the rules.

  • Mormon Ute Kaysville, UT
    March 4, 2011 9:59 a.m.

    Brian,

    A private university which is funded by a Church has every right to dictate the standards by which it's students live. Many students have attended BYU the have not believed the religious teachings of the LDS Church, but the lived the honor code while they were there. Just changing the way you believe doesn't violate the honor code. It is about how you act and how you represent the university.

  • Brian Utley Freedom, IN
    March 4, 2011 9:46 a.m.

    To require by contract that a student not change his mind at some time during his student experience may be unconscionableeven to the point of denying him participation in something as ubiquitous as an athletic experience or his athletic development. This appears to become all about the university and its image, and in this case the sponsoring institutions evangelical effort (Jimmer Fredette has recently been called the greatest Mormon missionary)rather than about the student and the students fundamental right to learn and grow and form his own ideas and opinions about things. Again, what right does such a school have to ask a student to sign a contract where it is expected that he absolutely will not change his mind somewhere along the way? All in the name of continued enrollment in the school. Or in the name of playing basketball? In this case, it starts to sound more like extortion, not a reaction to weakness of character. My way or the highway. And this doesnt sound like what a university is forelse the university may not be much of a university in the first place.

  • Brian Utley Freedom, IN
    March 4, 2011 9:43 a.m.

    What is a university doing asking a student to sign a contract regarding honoring beliefs? It is one thing for a student to break a contract by not keeping his word, but what if the student actually changes his mind about his beliefs? At BYU changing your mind about living by the Churchs moral code, were such to happen, may be grounds for dismissal. Certainly it can become grounds for being suspended from an athletic team. If a student were to say, I no longer believe in these kinds of core values of the Mormon Church, he or she may no longer be able to represent the school as a student athlete. Yet, isnt this what a university is for? Exploring the range and limits of human learning. There are big questions being raised at BYU right now about academic freedom at the school. Questions about right and wrong and a teachers or students right to dissent at the school. But isnt it a fundamental right for a student to learn things about the world and himself, even to the point of changing his mind? How can BYU deny this by contract? (Continued)

  • IDC Boise, ID
    March 4, 2011 8:39 a.m.

    Well said Danny. That is what my experience was personally with the honor code and what I believe it to be. Ainge isn't and never was perfect. I have never heard him claim to be perfect. BYU isn't perfect. It is great to be around people with similar standards and goals and to be a graduate of an institution that strives (I said strives, not perfectly accomplishes) to live up to it's standards.

  • In My Humble Opinion South Jordan, UT
    March 4, 2011 8:01 a.m.

    byu_num_1 | 12:53 a.m. March 4, 2011
    Holladay, UT

    You remember that Boston traded Garnett for Al Jefferson, Utah's current best player, right? That Garnett would've bolted when his contract was up, and that the T-wolves got a bunch of young talent and two-first round picks in the deal. Sound familiar?

    "Boston sent the Minnesota Timberwolves forwards Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes and Gerald Green, guard Sebastian Telfair and center Theo Ratliff, two first-round draft picks and cash considerations. Besides Ratliff, 34, the other four are 24 or younger."

  • Tom in CA Vallejo, CA
    March 4, 2011 7:31 a.m.

    @byu_num_1:

    I guess you were in the room when the "deal" was worked out. You must be Digger Phelps' best friend.

  • sammyg Springville, UT
    March 4, 2011 4:47 a.m.

    Gee, look who's talking. More importantly, who's asking and what are they possibly talking about?

    To those that criticize the moral high ground and the recent events around BYU's Honor Code, isn't it interesting that curiosity brings about more truth, understanding and acceptance of the tenants of the LDS faith.

    The implications of such a 'hot' topic are infinite. What continues to amaze me is how this subject and others will generate so much attention and good for BYU, the LDS Church and yet on the other side of the coin, it whips up those that are so quick to criticize for no other reason than their lack of understanding and sometimes religious bigotry.

    And who said BYU should get rid of its sports programs, winning is everything, and BYU is irrelevant as the new independent program?

  • byu_num_1 Holladay, UT
    March 4, 2011 12:53 a.m.

    After all Danny Ainge is such an honest guy. I mean working out a deal with Kevin McHale (the Celtic homer who was the GM for the T-wolves), where they worked out the deal for Garnett to go to Boston, coincidentally traded one of the best players to Boston. What an honest guy.