Brian @1:35 pmYou answered the question, "have you ever signed
a contract?" Apparently you did, the BYU honor code. Your being an
athlete once at BYU means nothing to me. Hundreds of thousands of people also
signed the honor code, and out of principle, they kept their word. Anybody
signing the honor code and not liking it later on, can withdraw from BYU at any
time. Your vitriolic hyperbole comparing BYU's honor code to
servitude and slavery is astoundingly nonsensical and without any merit
whatsoever.BYU, like real life, places personal responsibility on
people, and just like real life, an individual's choices and actions bring
consequences whether they be good or bad.Once again, wise up Brian.
To hedgehog | 2:21 p.m. Every employment contract and salary
negotiation I have had in my long career has been private and behind closed
doors. Most employers do not even allow salary discussion between employees.
Why should player negotiation be any different? Maybe only to you.Again, BYU did the right thing at the right time. The Honor Code is important
and if students dont like or as Brian argues change during their education then
they are welcome to leave. There are many others who will live by the Honor
Code who are more than willing to attend.
Honor code proceedings are confidential. As Ainge said, we just don't know all
the details of Davies' situation. Nor will we ever know.Unfortunately, as BYU Basketball player, Davies' was in a very public
position. He can't just disappear from the team without questions being raised.
The University could have just said he had left the team for "personal
reasons." But that would still have led to a lot of other questions about
what those personal reasons were. I think the University had Davies' permission
to let people know it was an Honor Code issue. I don't know that for sure, but
that is what I believe.Ainge explained things exceptionally well.
If you haven't (which judging from a lot of the comments, a lot of people fit
that group), listen to his interview. I especially liked the part where he was
talking about guys he played with in the NBA and their lifestyle choices. The
quote, "who's happy now?" was right on.Davies will be much
happier for facing up to this. I cheer for him now, and will in the future when
he's back on the court.
DektolTalking to a church leader should be confidential.--Nothing Brandon said to any church leader was ever revealed to the
public.byu and shills... do anything possible to try and justify
crucifying this kid --Nothing could be further from the truth; BYU
is doing everything they can to try to help Brandonfor being
normal.--There's nothing "normal" about reneging on a
Talking to a church leader should be confidential. This kid could have married
the girl in a civil ceremony. Instead byu and shills like the whiner Ainge do
anything possible to try and justify crucifying this kid for being normal.
BYU basketball: Danny Ainge expresses views on BYU Honor Code hedgehog | 2:21 p.m. March 4, 2011 Ann Arbor, MI "Both Ainge
and Holmoe are prime examples bending the honor code to it's limits. Though not
dishonest, certainly not honorable."Feb. 26, 2011 - BYU at
SDSUhedgehog | 11:20 a.m. Feb. 26, 2011 "Just to let you
know how confindent I am in a kewgar loss today. I will stop any and all posts
on tds articles for the remaining basketabll season if the kewgs somehow pull
out a win."
You're welcome to your opinion, hedgehog, misguided as it may be.Millions of deals are negotiated behind closed doors every day. If you think
that's dishonest or abnormal, then you don't live in the real world.What exactly did Holmoe do to bend the rules of the Honor Code?And, don't come back with your tired spin that BYU had some sort of obligation
to tell the MWC of its plans to leave the conference before those plans were
finalized. The ONLY obligation BYU had to the MWC was to announce BYU's plans to
leave before the deadline.Utah didn't announce it was leaving the
MWC until AFTER the Utes had already cut a deal with the PAC 10 BEHIND CLOSED
Not a big Ainge fan but that was an excellent interview. If you have not
listened to it, it is well worth the time.
"There's absolutely NOTHING dishonest about negotiating a deal behind
closed doors"sportsfan,Both Ainge and Holmoe are
prime examples bending the honor code to it's limits. Though not dishonest,
certainly not honorable.
pburt,You have to click on the link to the Boston radio program to
listen to Ainge's comments.
Dear McNasty...The question is...is it, and has it always been, an
unfair contract. Some contracts go too far. Contracts that establish human
servitude or slavery might be considered as going too far, for instance. That
is the question I'm raising here. And really it is only a question...not a
declaration of truth. I was an athlete at BYWoo...and I changed a lot of things
about myself while I was there. And I even kicked myself off the team, as a
matter of principle. But maybe the school goes too far...with this and a lot of
things. Ask some of the faculty members about their "implied"
contracts. Maybe these excesses actually disqualify BYU as a bona fide
university. Questions are questions are questions. There's nothing wrong with
playing the question game.
Wow, Ainge's commentary on the whole thing is simply excellent. Well worth the
There really is no argument to make here: The honor code is what it is, and BYU
upheld it, end of story. There should be no re-evaluation or first-time offense
consideration, or else the school's integrity goes out the window. However, how
did Jim McMahon ever make it through for four years?
It's interesting to see how many counterpoint BYU's integrity (in enforcing the
Honor Code at such an inopportune time) with other Universities who have adopted
a win at all costs attitude. In a world of Bernie Madoffs, many find that
Another Perspective Your "first offense" argument is just
a red herring.Would another university expell a student for stabbing
someone in a bar brawl or for seriously injuring someone while driving drunk,
even of it were a first offense?Your real issue is what you consider
a serious issue versus what BYU considers a serious issue.In other
words, you expect BYU to follow your personal standards instead of BYU's
"brian" Its a private university. They can do what they want. If
you don't believe that they have enough academic freedom the you can go to
Berkely. "another perspective"Same as above.........
byu_num_1Your entire argument is fundamentally flawed because Danny
Ainge's job as GM of the Boston Celtics is to negotiate the best deals possible
for the Celtics.If anyone was "dishonest" in negotiating
that deal, it would have been Kevin McHale, whose job as GM of the Timberwolves
was to negotiate the best deals possible for Minnesota.There's
absolutely NOTHING dishonest about negotiating a deal behind closed doors.
That's standard business practice.Besides, if the deal had been as
grossly one-sided as you're suggesting, it would have been shot down by the NBA.
Somebody please help me out: the beginning of the article says Ainge offers,
"One of the most interesting, and insightful, explanations of the honor
code." But I don't see any explanation from him in the article, and just
snippets in the links. Is there a link to a quote from the radio program I'm
Brian UtleyYour post is so naive it's laughable. Most
schools have some sort of school policy regarding personal behavior. Very few
are as stringent as BYU's and there may not be a signed contract involved, but
the rules are still there and by enrolling, students agree to follow those
rules.Some schools, believe it or not, are even more restrictive
than BYU. At military academies, for example, they tell you what time to get up,
what time to be on the parade ground, and how many hours a day you are required
to study.As with any other school, however, if a BYU student changes
his mind about the school and the rules the student has agreed to follow, the
student is free to go to withdraw and choose a different school.Nobody is forced to stay at BYU.
So Brian, let's expand on your train of thought. Let's continue to use the
example of a young man who changes his mind "during his student
experience" and decides unilaterally that a university's (go ahead pick any
university) minimum GPA requirements are no longer for him. He changes his
beliefs concerning grades and feels that his educational experience is soley up
to him. The university suspends him from his athletic experience. How
thoughtless universities are to place academic performance requirements on their
students regardless if they are student athletes or not!Do you make
car payments Brian? How about mortgage payments? Have you ever read or signed
a contract at all? If so, have your ever decided that the terms no longer apply
to you because your belief system has changed?Every university has
it set of policies of conduct to which student athletes and students in general
must adhere, and yes, moral behavior is part of them (i.e. cheating). If a
student does not adhere, well, there are plenty willing to step in that will.Wise up Brian.
@ Mormon UteCouldn't have said it any better!
Just because BYU as a private University has a right to such a strict and
unforgiving honor code doesn't mean its good or optimal to have one, expecially
one that is so unforgiving.Does it really make sense to kick someone
out just for some of the things BYU kicks students out for, and on a first
offence? I question this. Time for a re-evaluation.
Rules are rules.I live in SoCal. One of the things that gets me
here is how celebrites get seemingly special treatment when they run afoul of
the law.(OJ, Lindsay L, Charlie S)I am tired of seeing
how those with influence can get away with lighter sentences for breaking the
Brian,A private university which is funded by a Church has every
right to dictate the standards by which it's students live. Many students have
attended BYU the have not believed the religious teachings of the LDS Church,
but the lived the honor code while they were there. Just changing the way you
believe doesn't violate the honor code. It is about how you act and how you
represent the university.
To require by contract that a student not change his mind at some time during
his student experience may be unconscionableeven to the point of denying him
participation in something as ubiquitous as an athletic experience or his
athletic development. This appears to become all about the university and its
image, and in this case the sponsoring institutions evangelical effort (Jimmer
Fredette has recently been called the greatest Mormon missionary)rather than
about the student and the students fundamental right to learn and grow and form
his own ideas and opinions about things. Again, what right does such a school
have to ask a student to sign a contract where it is expected that he absolutely
will not change his mind somewhere along the way? All in the name of continued
enrollment in the school. Or in the name of playing basketball? In this case,
it starts to sound more like extortion, not a reaction to weakness of character.
My way or the highway. And this doesnt sound like what a university is forelse
the university may not be much of a university in the first place.
What is a university doing asking a student to sign a contract regarding
honoring beliefs? It is one thing for a student to break a contract by not
keeping his word, but what if the student actually changes his mind about his
beliefs? At BYU changing your mind about living by the Churchs moral code, were
such to happen, may be grounds for dismissal. Certainly it can become grounds
for being suspended from an athletic team. If a student were to say, I no
longer believe in these kinds of core values of the Mormon Church, he or she may
no longer be able to represent the school as a student athlete. Yet, isnt this
what a university is for? Exploring the range and limits of human learning.
There are big questions being raised at BYU right now about academic freedom at
the school. Questions about right and wrong and a teachers or students right to
dissent at the school. But isnt it a fundamental right for a student to learn
things about the world and himself, even to the point of changing his mind? How
can BYU deny this by contract? (Continued)
Well said Danny. That is what my experience was personally with the honor code
and what I believe it to be. Ainge isn't and never was perfect. I have never
heard him claim to be perfect. BYU isn't perfect. It is great to be around
people with similar standards and goals and to be a graduate of an institution
that strives (I said strives, not perfectly accomplishes) to live up to it's
byu_num_1 | 12:53 a.m. March 4, 2011 Holladay, UTYou remember
that Boston traded Garnett for Al Jefferson, Utah's current best player, right?
That Garnett would've bolted when his contract was up, and that the T-wolves got
a bunch of young talent and two-first round picks in the deal. Sound
familiar?"Boston sent the Minnesota Timberwolves forwards Al
Jefferson, Ryan Gomes and Gerald Green, guard Sebastian Telfair and center Theo
Ratliff, two first-round draft picks and cash considerations. Besides Ratliff,
34, the other four are 24 or younger."
@byu_num_1:I guess you were in the room when the "deal"
was worked out. You must be Digger Phelps' best friend.
Gee, look who's talking. More importantly, who's asking and what are they
possibly talking about?To those that criticize the moral high ground
and the recent events around BYU's Honor Code, isn't it interesting that
curiosity brings about more truth, understanding and acceptance of the tenants
of the LDS faith.The implications of such a 'hot' topic are
infinite. What continues to amaze me is how this subject and others will
generate so much attention and good for BYU, the LDS Church and yet on the other
side of the coin, it whips up those that are so quick to criticize for no other
reason than their lack of understanding and sometimes religious bigotry.And who said BYU should get rid of its sports programs, winning is
everything, and BYU is irrelevant as the new independent program?
After all Danny Ainge is such an honest guy. I mean working out a deal with
Kevin McHale (the Celtic homer who was the GM for the T-wolves), where they
worked out the deal for Garnett to go to Boston, coincidentally traded one of
the best players to Boston. What an honest guy.