How about local religious leaders put pressure on their flocks to obey the law
and come here legally?
@John Pack Lambert of Michigan 9:09You said - "People do not
give up their freedom of speech when they become religious leaders."Tell that to Boyd K. Packer.@Pagan 9:45 You said - "If
you want the 'freedom' to speak as a person fine...but pay taxes on
the things I must as well."Exactly where in the Consitution
does it say that people's freedom of speech is conditional based upon how much
taxes they pay?
The majority of people came here illegally before the 2007 drug cartel wars. We have stopped illegal immigration before, we can do it again.
It doesn't matter who enforces the laws, state of federal. What matters is that
they are enforced.
I'm still promoting the plan of designating one US State--like New Mexico--as
the transition location for undocumented immigrants. Rather than deport,
relocate and provide adequate healthcare, education, etc., so they can come out
of the shadows and work their way towards citizenship. Let the Feds pay for it
and let the other 49 states divest themselves of undocumented immigrants. Levy
heavy fines on employers who continue to hire undocumented laborers. This solves
the problem of splitting up families when deporting the undocumented members. It
certainly wouldn't be a paradise to be in the designated state, but it would
likely be better than living in Mexico. If not, they can always go back across
the border. This is a big country and being compassionate doesn't mean we have
to give every advantage to those who take advantage of us by immigrating outside
the proper channels.
Right now the state is in session for 2011 making budget cuts to our poor, our
disabled, our children, schools and not one word about all the welfare, housing,
medical care and free cell phones to illegals? Shame on your politicians, shame
on you church organizations and shame on this state for taxing me to pay for
illegals. How can any of you feel good about stealing from American's and their
children. This is disgusting.
There is already a path to legal immigration into this country. Why on earth
should those who have chosen to bypass the legal path and come here illegally be
rewarded for breaking the law? Amnesty DOES NOT WORK. It was tried before and
our illegal immigration problem is worse than it has ever been and gets worse
every day. There should be no amnesty. Period. Instead, we need to ban all
taxpayer financed benefits and services for the illegal, criminal invaders. Once
these incentives are removed, they will have no choice but to leave.
Note "Revolutionary Student Union" banner with activists, along the
crowd.This group is Communist with a notorious presence at Utah
Valley University. The 100-person crowd is nothing but Socialist. They demand
amnesty and stopping deportation, which means disobedience of the law and
calling for destruction.They are subversives, and merit no respect.
The conservative lawmakers know the protesters' political alignment, and should
ignore the illegal alien advocates.May the rule of law reign supreme
in Utah, with Sandstrom's bill passed to become law. Then they can leave Utah.
California is suffering from the crisis of illegal immigration among other
internal problems, and Utah would favor itself to avoid California's fate as a
failed state due to rampant liberalism.
It was fun watching those Mexican women climb the border fence in 20 seconds
flat. Only way to keep the rabbits out is to make the garden less attractive. I
don't suppose anybody wants to do that. Let's just let 'em in with a worker
card. What kind of business doesn't let the customers in the front door?
'This is a false claim. The right to speak is not limit.' - John Pack Lambert of
Michigan | 9:17 p.m. Jan. 24, 2011 Following this logic, there
should be a law against shell fish. The 'right to speak' is limited
in many ways. Can you yell 'fire' in a crowded room? Do you have a
dress code for your job? If you want the 'freedom' to speak as a
person fine... but pay taxes on the things I must as well. Housing, monitary bonuses, donations, etc.
NeilT, Our society has developed labels for those who violate the laws. Is it
dehumanizing to call someone a speeder, thief, rapist, or murderer if they have
indeed violated the applicable law? Referring to those who illegally immigrate
as illegal immigrants is descriptive, not dehumanizing. It could be argued that
calling them anything different would be trying to make them less than they
are.Additionally, I would ask how you believe Mexico and other
struggling nations will ever become stable if the US continues to drain them of
productive citizens who want a better life? Do you think this change will occur
as the percentage of criminals increases (as many are deported from the US
because of their actions)? Do you believe that suffering, starvation and
oppression will somehow decrease abroad when there are fewer who have the will
to improve their circumstances? If foreign stability is truly your
goal, then you may want to reconsider supporting short-sighted reforms that will
help the few who make it to the US at the expense of the many who remain in
their home countries.
"Local high school students standing among the crowd, where signs such as
"Who Would Jesus Deport?" Jesus would deport all who have broken the
law similar to the money changers in the Temple. John 2:15, "And when he
had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the
temple......" All law-breakers must pay the price. Drive illegal aliens
Close the borders. Feds, do your job. God bless Arizona! Jan Brewer for
"They can't go back," They can so go back, and can thereby
remain together as families in their home countries.Amnesty rewards
illegal behavior, it is unfair, and these people know it.
We are all God's children. God's children are supposed to follow the law.1 Peter 2:13 "Submit yourself to every ordinance of man . . . to
the king, as supreme; Or unto governors."First they broke the
law. Then they have a child. How can you be an adult parent with a child in a
country illegally? That is child endangerment. Most Americans could not fathom
entering another country illegally. We would expect to be sent back or
jailed.They break the law as an adult. They are responsible for a
child as an adult. The child grows up to be an adult and stays illegal. Now you
have two adults breaking the law.If you have a warrant for a parking
ticket, you get checked at a traffic stop and no one cares if it 'separates you
from your family'. Simply check the immigration status at every traffic stop on
everyone and it won't be profiling.
Pagan, However you are joining the chorus of claiming that religious
leaders have no right to speak on political matters. This is a
false claim. The right to speak is not limit. It is broad and open. Everyone
has the freedom of speech.
Conservative, There are many non-Mexican undocumented immigrants in the
US. In New York City possibly the largest contingent is people from the
Dominican Republic but there are also large numbers of undocumented immigrants
in that city from the Ivory Coast and other west African countries.Here in Michigan we have lots of undocumented immigrants from Albania and
The proper role of religious leaders is to provide moral leadership on issues
that they feel matter. Thus, these leaders are within their proper
role. People do not give up their freedom of speech when they
become religious leaders.
The Mexican border runs from Texas to CA. There is no feasible way to stop
immigration from a country the size and population of Mexico. Calling them
illegals is a way of dehumanizing them, or in other words making them less than
they are. Fences, rhetoric and harsh laws will never solve an economic problem.
You can't blame people for fleeing violence, corruption and poverty. A call for
compassion is not an endorsement of breaking the law. A law enforcement only
approach is like putting an alcoholic in jail overnight. They may sober up
however they are still an alcoholic. If we continue to deport them they will
find their way back. The problem will solve itself when Mexico returns to
stability. How to accomplish that is for people a lot smarter and more educated
In the past 15 years have these clergy told people to come here legally?That was the time to bring people out of the shadows and stop the
division in our communities. Not doing anything now will divide our
communities even further.
patriot vet,thank you for your service. Law abiding immigrants are
already here legally and need no change in the law. I have no problem with
them. Illegal immigrants are by definition not law abiding.jim
l,unfortunately by change the law they mean grant amnesty to all the
illegals here. They haven't the integrity to admit it, but that's really what
I find the whole argument that states should refuse to cooperate with federal
agencies in the enforcement of federal criminal law to be odd. The Federal
government has already offered local enforcement officers permission, with
training, to act as extensions of Federal eyes and ears, as they have with most
Federal criminal statutes. Citizens have always been encouraged to report
suspicious activity to local authorities.Urban politicians, fearing
a large ethnic populations ability to remove them from office, refuse to
participate. The resulting sanctuary problems of non-enforcement are not
restricted to that politician, so in Arizona suburban and rural politicians took
the initiative to require statewide participation.The truth is that
if Federal enforcement were effective, these people would still be unhappy. It
has nothing to do with what level of government should be involved in
enforcement. It is a red herring. They simply do not want it enforced. If that
was not the case, you wouldnt also hear a plea for amnesty made by the same
people. By their logic we should forbid local officers from enforcing any
Federal law and offer amnesty to those who break them.
As long as comprehensive immigration reform equals comprehensive illegal
deportation we are all for it. Otherwise, the majority of Utahns want
religious leaders to pay the bill for their political activism. If they have to
pay for all the illegals we will see how sincere they are.
Why do we need to change the laws when they did not enforce or obey the old
ones? Why does not the media understand the frustration of the american people.
We dont seal the borders, illegals continue to stream across. All we hear is
amnesty, amnesty, amnesty. There is no end in sight, and we have to continue to
pay for their education, health care, food,etc. etc. While the Democrats look
for votes and the rinos look for cheap labor for their buddies. All the while
americans suffer with wage suppression, or no jobs. We cannot feed the world.
While all of you religious amnesty hacks are together why don't you get out your
checkbooks and write checks to cover the costs of illegal immigrants? You are
always generous with everyone else's money. You are the biggest bunch of
hypocrites since the BIBLE. I never hear any of you express concern for the
victims of illegals. Your crocodile tears make me sick, you all want them here
for one reason; new members and new donors. That is it. You all need to shut up
until you step up and open your own houses and wallets.
It is very interesting that so many want to overlook the problem of immigration
as a whole. We as a Nation cannot continue to allow so many immigrants. We MUST
stop illegals first, our citizens need the work illegals are taking. A new study
from Northeastern University shows that between 2008 and 2010, 1.1 million newly
arriving aliens gained jobs while U.S. household employment declined by 6.26
million. (Reuters, Jan. 20, 2011) The U.S. economy did not create
enough jobs to keep up with population growth in 2010. There are 7.2 million
fewer jobs today than there were in December of 2007, and it may take years to
close the gap. There are fewer jobs today, with a population approaching 310
million, than there were in 2000, when U.S. population was just over 281
million. The U.S. is projected to add 30 million new residents each decade for
the foreseeable future. Immigration will account for 86 percent of U.S.
population growth between now and 2050.These statistics have received
steady coverage from the press. Yet, I am still waiting for a reporter to
connect the dots. Deseret News, are you listening???
'@Pagan - I don't care who criticizes me. Just get irritated when you and others
try to shut some people out of the discussion altogether because they don't like
what they are saying...' - Demisana | 3:53 p.m. Jan. 24, 2011
Demisana, I am NOT the moderator on these threads. I do not have the factual
ABILITY to 'shut some people out' of the post's here. Please keep
that in mind when you falsely accuse me of it. As for party, you
encourage me to engage in that debate AFTER you start it yourself.
'Why is it that no Democrat...' - Demisana | 2:34 p.m. 'As for
party - please make my day...' - Demisana | 3:53 p.m. Immigration
does not need to be a party debate. Please talk to me when you can
see past that.
Rowland said ""(Immigrants) are not so much breaking the law as they
are being broken by the law," YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! something said that I
can agree on! I have NO PROBLEM with immigrants.. be them brown black white
yellow red .. God Bless you! BUT ILLEAGAL aliens that is a total different
story! With all of the illeagal aliens who are BREAKING THE LAW in coming here,
it seem VERY PREJUDICE to me to allow them to stay, even though they broke the
law to get here - and take up room that someone from Europe or Canada or
wherever who is not Mexican cannot now come because there is not enough room for
them. Why should we reward these people for breaking our laws just because they
re: patriot vetI'm so glad you have decided that "the
unbearably long" process that I recently completed is no longer necessary
for the law breakers that are already here.Let me guess...this is
"fair"?Myself and many others who chose to follow the law
now I guess just get a "atta-boy"?I left the cesspool that
is socialist canada and now king hussein and other liberals are busy trying to
do the same. It makes my stomach turn.Our prisons are full of
illegals. Our State and others top 10 most wanted lists are full of illegals and
virtually none of them get deported,The liberals have one plan and
this is it:Let as many illegals in as possible because they are
generally poor. Poor people love government assistance and handouts. Liberals
love to act like they are helping people by "giving" them social
assistance but we have all hear the phrase "give a man a fish vs. teach a
man to fish...".Liberals love anyone they can politically
manipulate for power and that is what they see these people as...political pawns
to be manipulated and used.
@Pagan - I don't care who criticizes me. Just get irritated when you and others
try to shut some people out of the discussion altogether because they don't like
what they are saying - like churches. As if they aren't a legitimate part of
this country (speaking of Pilgrims, among others, btw...)As for
party - please make my day - I'll try to make sure I'm not drinking anything
when you claim you aren't a liberal - wouldn't want to ruin my keyboard or
Not even close to being a solution. The amnesty in 1986 didn't solve the
illegal problem - this one won't either. Instead, just require businesses to
prove they are hiring legal US citizens or residents. If businesses break that
law, fine the business heavily, take away their business license for a
reasonable time, or shut them down. Make following the law in the Business'
best interest.And, yes, possibly do more on the border. However,
from the couple of visits I've made in the last few months, there is a huge
Border Patrol presence near the border. It would be interesting to know what
they could be doing better that they aren't.
Comprehensive reform is "code talk" for open USA boarders. Why not
adopt Mexico's immigration laws, then who can complain. Further, if the World
would have let their respective Churches decide world affairs in the last
century, then we, minus all the Jewsish people who would have been eliminated in
the world, would all be speaking German right now.
'You do realize that all the individuals members of all these churches DO pay
taxes?' - Demisana | 2:34 p.m. Jan. 24, 2011 Do they pay taxes on
the tithing? Church building? Are they representing this as
individuals, or as religious leaders? Just look at the picture for
an answer: 'Reverend Steve Klemz of Zion Evangelical Lutheran
Church (at podium)..' Or, to quote conservative: 'The
interesting thing about illegal aliens is that you can't tell them apart from
all the other Mexicans.' - Conservative | 2:21 p.m. Jan. 24, 2011
Because apparently Pilgrims... looked like Mexicans.
Your claim that they pay INDIVIDUAL taxes does not take away from the fact that
the ORGINIZAION they represent, religion pick one, does not. And who
mentioned party? You did. Not me. You are
free to have your opinion. However, that does not protect you from
To: ConservativeYou are as they say in PC politics nowadays...inaccurate
in your statements. Justifying the presence of people who have entered this
country illegally as being hardworking, lawabiding, etc., etc., etc. is just
plain hogwash. People don't belong in this country under current immigration
laws. The United States cannot continue unenforcing immigration laws. This
baloney would stop or be 90% plus curtailed by simply building an appropriate
wall on our southern border, policing our coast lines and ports properly and
policing the criminals and deporting all undocumented criminals when detained
and identified. We see much of the serious crime being perpetrated by scumbags
who are not citizens. There should be a twenty to twenty five mile stip along
the border relegated to become military reservation territory to used by the
military as training territory and aircraft bombing zones. This would virtually
"All without paying taxes. " You do realize that all the individuals
members of all these churches DO pay taxes? Right? And that freedom of speech
applies equally to atheists and believers? Whether or not they hold positions
in their various denominations? Why is it that no Democrat raises
an eyebrow when a liberal denomination talks politically at the pulpit on a
Sunday, but starts hyperventilating when a conservative church leader is quoted
outside of his church?I think we need to go back to basic
principles. That is, short of shouting "Fire!" falsely in a crowded
theater, anybody can say anything they want at any time. And the rest of us can
choose to listen or ignore, without having a conniption about it.
The interesting thing about illegal aliens is that you can't tell them apart
from all the other Mexicans. At work, at church, shopping, even those that I
hire to do work...I can't tell them apart.That's a real problem.
The fact is they are as hard working and loyal and dedicated as us! It's time
to do something about it. The churches are right!
Enforcing immigration laws SHOULD be a Federal issue. But good luck getting
their attention! The Feds are more interested in saying what states CANT do as
opposed to what they CAN do, locally, to deal with their problems.Why can't enforcing immigration laws be a state issue? Why couldn't states
make their own laws? Utah's immigration problems are different than the
immigration problems in any other state. Border states have their own local
issues. And the Feds have proven to be inept at enforcing immigration laws.
1) It is estimated that there are 20 million illegal immigrants in the US at
this time... compared to an estimated 2 million in the US military,
home & abroad. That means, if we got withdrew every military
presence in the world, enlisted every firefighter, police officer and nurse to
help the military... we would still be outnumberd compared to
illegal immigrants in this country. 2) A 'work program' is the ONLY
viable solution, as physical force would fail. 3) Some agree that
the foundation for this current goverment, America, were decendents from the
Pilgrims in the Mayflower. 4) State regulation will, most likely, be
as diverse as the 50 states themselves and at times may contridict each
other. 5) Some religions refuse to give the immigrant status of some
of it's missionaries in the US. 6) Once again, we see spiritual
leaders try to have say on political issues. All without paying
I have wondered how many charities associated with the pro illegal churches and
individuals in this state are making money off of helping the illegals.
Compassion may be used as a way to facilitate income/tax write offs from running
the charities. Many of these charities may become obsolete if the illegals
leave this state. Politics and money working hand in hand using compassion to
sway the emotions of citizens.
The dilemma that millions of our friends, neighbors and honorable families face
is difficult for us Born in the USA to understand. Virtually none of our
forefathers had to go through the unbearably long process that the laws now
require for citizenship. It is time to help those millions come out
of the shadows and extend a process of citizenship to them. Almost all of them
have contributed to the American dream by laboring and being honorable partners
with us.Those of us that served in war did so to provide for
freedoms to the downtrodden, not to throw up bureaucratic roadblocks to keep
people from bettering their lives.I hope the Church will join these
other churches in calling for comprehensive immigration reform and a path to
citizenship for the millions of law-abiding and hard working immigrants among
Since when do religious leaders become experts on all things immigration in
Utah??Stick to lecturing your flock and let the business of leges be
manages by those ELECTED to do so!
"[Rowland] suggested a path to citizenship for immigrants already living in
Utah who are willing to pay a fine, undergo a criminal background check and
provide proof of paying taxes."And what should be done about
the illegal immigrants (and their families) who are aware that they will not
pass a criminal background check and choose to remain in Utah without entering a
path to citizenship?This proposal will not solve the problem.
As a retired law enforcement officer, I continue to ask the question: if the
current laws are not enforced (they are not broken, just not enforced), how can
we trust our leaders in any revisions (and promises) they may make?