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Digging up the past: Man sure relative was 'Sundance Kid'

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  • Dean 'n Gone PROVO, UT
    July 11, 2011 9:32 p.m.

    Kid
    The stories that William T. Phillips told his family and friends concerning his birth and early life in Michigan, through diligent research, have all been confirmed with much more accuracy than the wild stories he told of Butch Cassidy's exploits. Much more important than his death cert. is his marriage record which gives his actual age. There are more records of interest than just his Elks and Masonic lodge membership applications and his death cert., and those records confirm his stories of his birth, ancestry, parents, and growing up. His story "The Bandit Invincible," excluding the Cassidy portions confirms what has been learned of his life story after he ran away from home.

    The proof though is not in proving who Phillips was, only in proving that he was not Robert Leroy Parker. There is reliable evidence, including Jim Regan, and others that said that the two men were separate and not the same person.

  • Kid Charter RIVERTON, WY
    June 30, 2011 9:09 a.m.

    GTB
    Im not following the logic here, your assuming William T. Phillips was William T. Phillips (b) 1865 Michigan, father L. J. Phillips, mother Cecelia Mudge, married Gertrude Livesay case closed. If Robert Leroy Parker, who was known to have at least a dozen aliases became William Thadeus Phillips in 1908, then I would not expect him to say I was born in 1866, at Beaver, Utah, the son of Maximillian Parker and Annie Gillies. Its reasonable to assume Gertrude Livesay, who grew up in Morenci, Lenawee County, Michigan, knew Ceclia Mudge Snell. Gertrude, therefore could have provided Parker with the necessary information for his new identity as William Thadeus Phillips. Im not understanding why based on an Elks membership and his death certificate you concluded he was the son of Samuel Latta Phillips and Celia Mudge. It seems to me the solution to solving this mystery, prove that William T. Phillips was the illegitimate son of L. J. Phillips and Cecelia Mudge. The proof if any exists, is in Michigan, where he was supposedly born in 1865.

  • Bob G Town Pleasant Grove, UT
    Feb. 24, 2011 10:52 a.m.

    This board has been quiet for much too long. I guess the Deseret News' Neanderthal posting policies have squashed all discussions like this.

    Dora Lamoreaux claimed that she only went riding with Butch once and that was it.

    maybe we should all go over to that face page to discuss Cassidy, Long and others. I understand there is a Cassidy page over there.

  • mountainmama
    Sept. 10, 2010 9:38 a.m.

    Maybe Charlene is referring to Dora Lamoreaux who also was one of the indian girls that butch "took for rides" . She married John David Dollard brother of murderer James Dollard . He killed Frank Bryant.
    She later married 2nd to Robertson.

    The sad fact is that the ranchers kept their daughters away from any of the cowboys. Most were sent to Catholic schools in Billings and Cheyenne. The only girls available to the cowboys were the indians. These girls were treated badly by most accounts and almost none married any of the cowboys.

    However there are exceptions. William (Billy or Curly ) Harris did marry a Shoshone girl. He was Butch's point man and was in on several of the robberies. He was reported dead in the papers after one robbery but that was not true. He lived a long and fruitful life and left many descendants here in WY.I have some family info on his time with Butch. If anyone is interrested let me know.

    Charlene one way to find out for sure is to do a DNA on your nephew or any of the males in that line and see if they match up with the Parkers.

  • mountainmama
    Sept. 10, 2010 9:14 a.m.

    Bob, Butch met with Simpson out by Burnaughs (near Muddy Ck) where he stayed many times with the gang after a chase or robbery. Then he went over Mexican Pass to Thermopolis a few days later and was spending Gold Coins at the bar , not paper money .One of the gang was wounded and died and is buried at Burnaughs cemetery. This is on the Rez today but cemetery is still there. Agnes Stagner (dau of Speed Stagner) was Burnaugh's wife. Speed if you remember was one that was a witness in court against Butch at his trial.

  • mountainmama
    Sept. 10, 2010 9:12 a.m.

    Bob, Butch met with Simpson out by Burnaughs (near Muddy Ck) where he stayed many times with the gang after a chase or robbery. Then he went over Mexican Pass to Thermopolis a few days later and was spending Gold Coins at the bar , not paper money .One of the gang was wounded and died and is buried at Burnaughs cemetery. This is on the Rez today but cemetery is still there. Agnes Stagner (dau of Speed Stagner) was Burnaugh's wife. Speed if you remember was one that was a witness in court against Butch at his trial.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Sept. 9, 2010 3:27 p.m.

    Sly:
    "Boyd believes he heard the man say his name was Phillips" "In Search of Butch Cassidy" page 240. I said: "Boyd Charter, Bert's son recollection was that the man said his name was Phillips."

    No one knows how many desperadoes participated in the Wilcox train robbery. The contemporary newspaper accounts, as you cited, vary from 3 to 6. It is not even known who all of the participants were. Six sounds closer to me because of the complexity of the robbery.

    Some say Butch participated, others say he helped plan it, but did not participate.

    Butch apparently ran into Will Simpson a few days after the robbery. Will accused Cassidy of breaking his promise to not commit any more crimes in Wyoming. Cassidy defended his innocence to Simpson and claimed he was not there. However shortly afterward bank notes from the robbery started showing up in places that Cassidy had been through. Another trail of bank "Wilcox" bank notes led down through Utah, and into New Mexico, and eventually East ending up in Arkansas along the Mississippi River.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Sept. 9, 2010 2:59 p.m.

    Charlene: Are you talking about Mary Boyd, the daughter of William Boyd and Louisa Lajuenesse who had a daughter named Mary born ca. 1892 out of wedlock. Mary Boyd later married Oliver Edward Rhodes in 1895?

  • Charlene
    Sept. 8, 2010 8:42 p.m.

    My daughter and I believe that Butch Cassidy is my Grandpa. My grandmother was in the same area where Butch Cassidy was working and ended up pregnant. She couldn't have gotten married because Butch was put in jail. They married her off to a man 20 years older than she was. My dad was her favorite and he treated his mom just like we had read about how Butch treated his mom. The picture of my nephew looks exactly like Butch and he laughed like the way Butch supposedly laughed. I am 78 years old and would love to be able to get in touch with some of Butch Cassidy's family. I want nothing more than to be able to know my grandmother was in love with Butch and was just unable to get married.

  • Sly Parker
    Sept. 4, 2010 9:10 a.m.

    GTB
    Were there three or six bandits at Wilcox? Did Boyd Charter say the man said his name was Phillips?

    RAWLINS REPUBLICAN, RAWLINS, CARBON COUNTY, WYOMING, SATURDAY JUNE 3, 1899. Front Page Col., 1, 2 No. 1 HELD UP BY SIX MASKED BANDITS

    RAWLINS REPUBLICAN, RAWLINS, CARBON COUNTY, WYOMING, SATURDAY JUNE 17, 1899. Front Page Col., 3, 4
    “The only trail found leaving the vicinity of the hold up was one made by three horses which crossed Rock creek about a mile north of Wilcox. This they followed about six miles and lost it. The posse then concluded that the robbers would make for the Hole-in-the-Wall country and would no doubt cross the Platte river at Casper.”

    "In Search of Butch Cassidy" page 240. Based on Pointer's interview with Boyd Charter in 1973.
    “Boyd believes he heard the man say his name was Phillips”

  • The Artful Codger
    Aug. 27, 2010 12:58 p.m.

    Let's not get too carried away with this $20 bill story. True or not, what does it prove?

    The May 5, 1939, William L. Simpson letter, three & 1/2 single-spaced typewritten pages is full of observations, corrections, and anecdotes, including "I am confident that Butch Cassidy died in South America by a bullet from his own hand." That confidence is based on stories told him by others. Grist for the mill.

    The $20 bill: he said he saw the bill in Laramie City, but how would he have known where it came from, Wilcox or Katmandu? Was it labelled, "official Wilcox $20 bill"? And if it did come from Wilcox, so what?

  • mountainmama
    Aug. 27, 2010 12:48 p.m.

    use the mountainmama then put 42 then at bresnan.com

  • mountainmama
    Aug. 27, 2010 12:47 p.m.

    I am offering my 22 years research and documented work in Wyoming on Butch and his involvement in the cattle wars , and so much more. I will be putting it out on several venues if any of you are interrested. I have cancer now and not a whole lot of time. I am hoping all this I have will not get buried again for another hundred years. If anyone wants to write me please do.

  • Sly Parker
    Aug. 27, 2010 11:33 a.m.

    Not Bill

    Rawlins Republican December 24, 1897
    Bert Charters and Arthur Blackmore will leave m a few days for Grand Junction, Colo., where they will spend the winter. They will go to the Klondyke in the spring.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Aug. 27, 2010 11:25 a.m.

    The Idea that Bert Charter was involved some way in the Wilcox robbery is just supposition. No one actually involved in that robbery ever said that Bert was also involved, either in the planning or support. However, Bert did know those who were. That Bert came up with one of the $20.00 bills from the Wilcox robbery is not surprising whether he participated or not.

    As for the Phillips 1924 Summer trip to Charter's Spring Gulch Ranch, Boyd Charter, Bert's son recollection was that the man said his name was Phillips. See Pointer: "In Search of Butch Cassidy" page 240. Based on Pointer's interview with Boyd Charter in 1973.

  • mountainmama
    Aug. 27, 2010 10:38 a.m.

    Thanks Bill.
    Funny Bert went to Alaska same time (abt 1897) as Price who in 1894 killed Butch's partners just before Butch's trial..

  • Sly Parker
    Aug. 26, 2010 6:26 p.m.

    The Wilcox Train Robbery June 2, 1899

    Craig Currier Saturday June 03, 1899
    Bert Charters, formerly of this place, visited Craig friends this week. Bert went to Klondike last fall. He was at Dawson City several weeks, leaving there on February 25th and arriving in Baggs about a month ago. He says the country is greatly overrated and that Routt county's placer gold field is about as good as the average run of deposits in the frozen country. There are some very rich deposits in the Klondike, however, but they are not sufficiently numerous to justify the boom which he says was promoted by the steamship companies. Bert is now engaged in the saloon business at Baggs with John Wilkes.

    No doubt Bert Charter played a key role in the Wilcox robbery, but unlikely he physically participated in the actual robbery.

  • The Artful Codger
    Aug. 26, 2010 5:01 p.m.

    Mountainmama,

    My post had nothing to do with Simpson; it was in reference to Sly Parker's question about sources for the alleged mid-1920s visits.

    Best wishes.

  • mountainmama
    Aug. 26, 2010 4:28 p.m.

    In Simpsons letter dated May 5. 1939 which was 39 years later ,not 50, he states that the $20.00 bill was from the WILCOX robbery not the Winnemucca bank robbery. That bill was pasted on the card and in Laramie City. And the owner of it having recently died. This is why I think it was Bert Charter because he had just died a few months earlier in Feb 1939. The point he was trying to make was that Butch was not involved in the Wilcox robbery.
    But also that Butch had gold coins taken from the Thermop to Casper stage robbery which he did with Curly Harris at the same time someone was pulling off the Wilcox. This meeting was at Burnaugh's . .Butch told Simpson at a meeting on Muddy Ck that he did not do it. Curly also died in 1938/39 .

  • The Artful Codger
    Aug. 26, 2010 3:20 p.m.

    Sly Parker,

    I'm not really sure what any of this has to do with anything, since Phillips was an impostor, but some of the details of and sources for the stories that Phillips/Cassidy was in Wyoming in the mid-1920s are in Pointer's IN SEARCH OF, pp. 240-41: anecdotes of Phillips' presence in Wyoming in 1922, 1924, and 1925, based on interviews with old-timers some 50 years after the fact. I wouldn't hold any of the old-timers precisely to which year the visits happened or to any other detail. Fifty years is a long time to remember anything.

    In these old-timer accounts the visitor is Phillips, Cassidy, or a mysterious stranger, though as Pointer tells it, they are all part of the Phillips saga.

  • Sly Parker
    Aug. 26, 2010 2:08 p.m.

    Pinkerton Files: This history prepared by the Denver Agency under the supervision of Frank Murray, Asst. Supt.
    Harry Longabaugh, alias Harry Alonzo, alias Frank Jones, alias Frank Boyd, Train & Bank Robber. "His particular friends are Jim Ferguson, Palisades, Colorado, John P. Ryan and Bert Charters of Rawlins, Wyoming. It is said that Charters furnished funds to Longabaugh and Butch Cassidy to go to Nevada to rob the Winnemucca bank." Longabaugh is well known along the Snake River, Wyoming, Baggs and Dixon, Wyoming, by Al Reader, Robert McIntosh, Slater Post Office, Colorado, and by Charles Ayers and others at Dixon, Wyoming.

    Mr. Charles Kelly
    1349 South 5th Street
    Salt Lake City, Utah
    Dear Mr. Kelly:
    “Within the last year I have seen a twenty dollar bill pasted on card board, a part of this robbery, and this is in Laramie City, Wyoming, the owner of which having recently died, but it is still available.”
    Yours truly,
    Wm. L. Simpson

    GTB
    Lets see some documentation that supports your claim that it was William T. Phillips, in 1924?

  • mountainmama
    Aug. 25, 2010 2:43 p.m.

    Wyoming .I assume you are Colin. But I agree with all you just said above. Thanks .

  • Wyoming Native
    Aug. 24, 2010 11:13 a.m.

    I have not commented for a long time about what is going on with this blog. A couple of comments are appropriate at this point. 1. Everything that William Simpson said were not always true. 2. There is precious little evidence that the two men involved in the Amamayo-Franke robbery and buried in San Vicente, Bolivia were Butch and Sundance!

  • mountainmama
    Aug. 24, 2010 10:18 a.m.

    Bob and Sly. Thank you so much for your answers to my queery. Glad to see facts for a change. Now have either of you seen or heard of the $20.00 bill from the Wilcox robbery supposedly in Laramie in 1939 ? Simpson wrote of this in his letter to Kelly in May 1939. But he said the donar had recently died and was in on the robbery. This leads me to believe that it was Bert Charter who died Feb 1939.Simpson seems to have gotten a lot of info from Bert.

    But also the Nev Senator Nixon who was the clerk at the Winnemucca bank supposedly met with the robber of the bank in 1918 in Nev according to Simpson. That can't be as Nixon died in 1912.

    Again thanks for your replies.

  • Sly Parker
    Aug. 24, 2010 10:12 a.m.

    Pinedale Roundup October 28, 1909 P-6
    Mrs. Fannie Burch has disposed of her ranch near town, (New Fork Creek) to Messrs. Jebens and Charter formerly of Baggs, Wyo.

    The Pinedale Roundup, November 2, 1916
    Charters Ranch Sold
    A deal was consummated today whereby Bert Charters disposed of his ranching interests on the Newfork to Jas. McLaughlin. The deal includes the cattle also. Four hundred acres of land and in the neighborhood of 150 head of cattle were involved in the transfer. We understand the price for the land was $27.50 per acre and $60.00 per head for the grown stock from yearlings up and $30.00 for calves. Mr. and Mrs. Charter expect to leave next week by team for the Jackson Hole section, with a view of looking over the section for a location and may go on further west.

    The Pinedale Roundup, November 13, 1930
    Mr. and Mrs. Bert Charter their son Boyd and a grand daughter were visitors in Pinedale Thursday of last week from their home in Jackson Hole The Charter family were formerly for many years residents of this vicinity While here they were callers at the V E “Vent” Faler home.

  • Sly Parker
    Aug. 24, 2010 9:41 a.m.

    Spring Gulch Ranch:
    The Pinedale Roundup, December 14, 1916, Pinedale, Wyoming
    Mr. W. P. Redmond last week sold his ranch of 560 acres in Spring Gulch to Bert Charter, who recently came here from Pinedale. This was considered one of the best improved ranches in Jackson’s Hole and immediately caught the eye Mr. Charter, who was looking for a location near town. Mr. Redmond retains his cattle and will probably give his attention to improving his ranch property on Crystal creek----- Jackson Courier.

    William Preston Redmond was the brother-in-law of William Lee Simpson.
    Maude Charter sold the ranch to Cliff Hansen.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Aug. 24, 2010 8:45 a.m.

    Bert Charter bought a ranch at Pinedale in 1909 and stayed there until 1916 when he sold out and moved to Jackson Hole where he bought the Spring Gulch Ranch from W.P. Redmond.
    Walt Punteney did not move to Pinedale until 1921, long after Bert Charter had moved to Jackson.
    It was while Bert Charter was living in Jackson Hole on the Spring Gulch Ranch that William T. Phillips in 1924 came driving up in his Model T posing as Butch Cassidy, asking a lot of questions, and staying the summer. This started the rumor that Butch Cassidy had returned that Butch had returned from South America, rather than shooting himself in San Vicente.

  • Sly Parker
    Aug. 24, 2010 8:39 a.m.

    Wind River Mountaineer no. 13 February 11, 1916, page 1
    Former Wyoming Man Killed at Ely, Nevada
    "Billy" Sawtell who has been a resident of Wyoming for a number of years was killed last week at Ely, Nevada, death resulting as the culmination of a shooting affair. The remains were brought to Casper for interment. Sawtell Is well known in Lander, and especially in this portion of the state. He was in the Pinedale county last fall, and was in this section during the building of the railroad into this section and is said at that time to have killed a man, and has several killings to his credit. Sawtell Is claimed to have been a member of the Cassady and Hole-in the Wall crowd, and was known as a gun man.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Aug. 24, 2010 7:25 a.m.

    Mountainmama:
    The William C. Sawtelle in the 1910 census living next to Dan Parker in Parowan is probably the same one that Simpson said went to South America. He is not however the same guy that was in the 1920 Washington State census. Sawtelle got himself killed in Ely on Feb 1 1916 (see Rawlins Republican 3 Feb 1916) in a gunfight with fellow bartender Rodger M. Rutherford. The Carbon County Journal for 9 Oct 1914 reported: "Wm. Sawtelle, a former Rawlinsite who has been in South America for a few years, is in the city this week renewing aquaintances." thus confirming Simpson's statement.

  • mountainmama
    Aug. 23, 2010 12:22 p.m.

    Everything about Butch is rediculous. And no one knows which rediculous story is true. Or none are true. Thats the whole point. But I was hoping someone would answer my questions above about Sawtell and Charter. Seems all the same people on this list are the same ones arguing their point on other lists. Dan,Bill, Jim etc etc. Probably Colin and a few others.

  • The Artful Codger
    Aug. 22, 2010 9:03 p.m.

    Mountainmama,

    The suggestion that Butch wrote letters in the US and sent them "to someone to mail in SA" in order to get the Pinkertons off his back in the US is perhaps one of the most outlandish & hilarious Butch Cassidy "what if's" I've ever heard.

    A better theory is that Butch Cassidy got himself killed in Bolivia in 1908 in order to get the Pinkertons off his back. It's a theory that has the advantage of being half true. He did get himself killed.

  • mountainmama
    Aug. 22, 2010 9:06 a.m.

    Is the William C Sawtell the same one living in 1910 next to Dan S Parker (Butch's brother) in Parawan , Utah? If so it seems he is the same guy on the 1920 in Washington state.
    Also on 1910 in Pinedale ,Wy is Bert Charter. Walt Puntenay also moved up to Pinedale in 1921. He died there in 1949.
    It seems Simpson got most of his info on all this from Bert Charter and who knows if Charter told the truth.

  • mountainmama
    Aug. 21, 2010 5:12 p.m.

    Do any of you big brains on here know about the $20.00 bill glued to a piece of cardboard and given to Laramie City? It was suppose to be by one of the Wilcox robbers. Who also had just recently died. That could have been Bert Charter as he died Feb 25,1939 and was in Simpsons letters dated May 1939.

    Also Simpson is in error in his 1939 letters to Kelly when he speaks of Sen George Nixon who was the clerk in the Winnemucca bank during the 1900 robbery. Nixon can't have met with the robber in 1918 because he died in 1912. Simpson got a lot of things wrong.

  • mountainmama
    Aug. 21, 2010 2:44 p.m.

    You are assuming that Percy knew Butch. Think about it. If someone else told Percy he was Cassidy then how would Percy think otherwise. And the letters could have been written from the US and sent to someone to mail in SA. It would have been a great way to get the Pinkertons off his back in the US . Keep them busy in SA.

  • The Artful Codger
    Aug. 16, 2010 2:20 p.m.

    Mountainmama,

    The Parker family's opinions about Butch Cassidy's fate are all over the map, but the majority view -- that is, the opinion of most family members -- is that he never came home. He went to South America and that was that.

    Not surprising if you think about it. Son leaves, letters stop, no news.

    As for evidence "that he went to Bolivia," there is plenty. Percy Seibert, who worked with him at the Concordia mine; letters he wrote to friends in Bolivia; testimony from friends in Argentina; and so on.

  • mountainmama
    Aug. 13, 2010 9:58 a.m.

    Thank you Artful, whoever you are , for this answer. While I understand that Phillips is absolutely not Butch, and the family listed the date 1909 because of articles written about his Bolivia death at that time, it still does not prove when or where he died.We do not even have proof that he went to Boliva. Only that someone went along with Sundance.

  • The Artful Codger
    Aug. 6, 2010 11:08 a.m.

    Mountainmama,

    The operative phrase is "if the family knew." The Parker family didn't know what happened to Butch Cassidy. He went to South America and never came back. That's the opinion of most members of the family.

    I have a photocopy of an LDS "Archive Record,"filed by the Parker family, which states that Butch Cassidy died in 1909, no place given. The form was filed by Joseph D. Betenson, Lula's Parker Betenson's husband, sometime after 1942, the last date typed on the form.


    Cassidy died in 1908 in Bolivia, so 1909 is close enough. Decades later Lula wrote a book claiming he died in 1937 in Washington state, but she offered no proof, and most members of her family held opinions at odds with hers. For example, Cassidy's father sad he never returned home after going to South America. After Lula's book came out, her brother-in-law said in his view Cassidy died in South America.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Aug. 3, 2010 2:27 p.m.

    Mountainmama, I guess I am confused, these dates are from the actual LDS sealing and temple records, not from from Ancestry. I don't think that there is anything that the LDS Church may have on the Parker family that I do not have access to.

  • mountainmama
    July 31, 2010 10:04 a.m.

    Bob, you are confusing the actual sealed records to those of just anyone who wants to submit it to Ancestry. You cannot go online or even look it up in SL. You must actually see the Sealed records. I could submit a date like you cite above if I cared to.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    July 26, 2010 12:38 p.m.

    Mountain Mama, Gee, I wish really was just that simple!
    According to the LDS records there are 9 separate death dates/places for poor old Butch with over 15 different relatives submitting information on his death. They are:
    1907
    1908 Bolivia
    1908
    9 July 1909 San Vicente, Potosi, Bolivia
    9 July 1909
    20 July 1937
    20 July 1907 Spangle Washington
    August 1937
    August 1937 San Vicente, Bolivia

    The oldest information was submitted in 1945 by a relative stating that his death was 9 July 1909.

  • mountainmama
    July 21, 2010 11:24 a.m.

    It would be very easy to find the answer as to where Butch died and was buried. The LDS Genealogy Library will have all the Parker family records sealed . Robert Leroy Parker will be there for sure if the family knew. But if he is not there then they do not know . Just that simple.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 15, 2010 9:31 a.m.

    William Henry Long was born 2 Feb 1861 or more probably 1864 in Fulton County, Illinois. The son of James Long and Ann Harvey.
    James Long, born abt 1826 Gallia Co., Ohio was the son of Abner Long of Fulton County and Sally Stover. Ann Harvey was born abt 1832 in England and was the daughter of Benjamin and Sarah Harvey. James married Ann Harvey 29 Nov 1849 in Peoria Co., Ill.
    James and Ann had 8 known children: Henry, born Apr 1850 (died young), Charles Long born 1852, Lucy Long born 1856 in Iowa, Farncis (Frank) Long born Aug 1859 in Fulton Co., William Henry Long, Sarah Salina Long born abt 1863, Nelson Long born Sept 1865 in Iowa, and Mary Mahala born 1869 in Iowa.

  • Anonymous
    April 5, 2010 6:51 p.m.

    Duh!
    William Sawtelle went to Antarctica to investigate Butch and Sundance's fate?
    William Morgan alias Sawtelle went to Bolivia and Patagonia to find Robert Scott?

  • The Sundance Kids
    April 5, 2010 6:16 p.m.

    That's a question for William Sawtelle.

  • Anonymous
    April 5, 2010 3:38 p.m.

    What evidence exists that it was actually Butch Cassidy and Harry Longabaugh who were killed in Bolivia?

  • The Sundance Kids
    April 5, 2010 3:09 p.m.

    KC,

    Aside from the accounts of Simpson, Crabbe, Warner, Kelly, and Bassett (all cited in footnote 86, "Did Butch Cassidy Return? His Family Can't Decide," WOLA JOURNAL, Spring 1998), what other evidence exists as to what Sawtelle may have told friends about Butch and Sundance's fate upon his return to Wyoming in 1914?

    And what evidence exists as to what in fact Sawtelle investigated? Did he actually travel to Bolivia? To Patagonia?

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 5, 2010 2:29 p.m.

    In the 1880 census however there is a family that matches closely to the family listing that Viola gave as the family of her father. The 1880 census of Columbia County, Washington shows the following family:
    Long, James W M 53 Farmer Iowa, VA, Ill
    Chas. W M 22 Son Ill, Iowa, Eng
    Frank W M 19 Son Ill, Iowa, Eng
    Sarah W M 17 Dau. Ill, Iowa, Eng
    Wm W M 16 Son Ill, Iowa, Eng
    Nelson W M 14 Son Ill, Iowa, Eng
    Mary W F 11 Dau Ill, Iowa, Eng
    The 1870 census for this same family is found in Orion, Fulton County Illinois has the following:
    Long, James 44 M W Farmer Ohio
    Ann 42 F W England
    Lucy 14 F W Iowa
    Francis10 M W Illinois
    William 9 M W Illinois
    Sarah 7 F W Illinois
    Nelson 4 M W Illinois
    Mary 1 M W Illinois

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 5, 2010 10:47 a.m.

    The exact number of McCarty children is still unknown.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 5, 2010 10:38 a.m.

    Mary A. McCarty in the 1900 census claimed that she had 7 children, 4 of whom were still living. In the 1910 census she claimed that she had 10 children, three of whom were still living. There was 8 years between Rosa and Reatha(Ruth) Rosa born 1864, Reatha born 1872. Plenty of time for extra unrecorded children.

  • KC
    April 4, 2010 5:22 p.m.

    I agree, Andrew Jebens, went to South America to work with George Musgrave, before the arrival of Jano Musgrave alias Stewart, Sarah, Mary, and Josephine Jebens. I have always discounted the story, that Bert Charter at the insistence of Maude, sent Andrew Jebens to Paraguay to check on the well being of his sister-in-law, Jeanette “Jano” Magor Musgrave. She packed a gun, knew how to use it. If George Musgrave had physically abused her, she would have blown his head off. It wasn’t until the early 1920’s, that Musgrave began womanizing and drinking heavily. Jano finally left George Musgrave and returned to the United States, July 1924.

    I also agree, Andrew Jebens trip to Paraguay wasn’t in and of itself meant to find Cassidy, none the less, as a former associate of Cassidy's and encouraged, by Cassidy’s friends in Wyoming, he along with Sawtelle, who was specifically sent to find Cassidy, thoroughly investigated the reports of Cassidy’s death, and reported their finding to Cassidy‘s friends, both before and after their return.

  • KC
    April 4, 2010 5:14 p.m.

    New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1957
    Name: Andreas (Andrew) Jebens Arrival Date: 22 Sep 1914 Estimated birth year: abt 1883 Age: 31 Gender: Male Port of Departure: Rotterdam Ship Name: Principello Port of Arrival: New York, New York
    (Birth 12 Nov 1883, Schleiswig Holstein, Prussen)

    Name: Sara Jebens Arrival Date: 22 Sep 1914 Estimated Birth Yeart: abt. 1889 Age: 25 Gender: Female Port of Departure: Rotterdam Ship Name: Principello Port of Arrival: New York, New York Nativity: Utah
    (Birth: 16 Apr 1889, Vernal, Utah)

    Name: Mary Jebens Arrival Date: 22 Sep 1914 Estimated birth year: abt 1910 Age: 4 Gender: Female Port of Departure: Rotterdam Ship Name: Principello Port of Arrival: New York, New York NATIVITY: Utah Birth Location: Utah Birth Location Other: Vernal
    (Birth: 02 Aug 1909, Vernal, Utah)

    Name: Josefine Jebens Arrival Date: 22 Sep 1914 Estimated birth year: abt 1912 Age: 2 Gender: Female Port of Departure: Rotterdam Ship Name: Principello Birth Location: Wyoming Birth Location Other: Baggs
    (Birth: 24 May 1912, Baggs, Wyoming)


  • Anonymous
    April 3, 2010 9:03 a.m.

    Wm. L. Simpson
    May 5, 1939
    One of his old friends and associates throughout the early history of Cassidy’s career and others of his kind has just recently died in this country, and he and I have talked over many things of interest as to individuals of the outlaw gang. (Bert Charter died February 25, 1939)

  • Anonymous
    April 3, 2010 8:48 a.m.

    Simpson wrote to Kelly later that year intimating that the people promoting the Phillips story didn't know what they were talking about. He added that Bert Charter, a second-tier member of the Wild Bunch, was responsible for having sent "Billie Sawtell" to South America to investigate Butch's death, but this seems doubtful because
    Charter was apparently among those who believed Phillips was Cassidy. See Pointer, In Search of, pp. 240-41. D. B.

    Boyd Charter, son of Bert Charter. In search of Butch Cassidy, Pp. 240. “Boyd believes he heard the man say his name was Phillips“?

  • Anonymous
    April 3, 2010 8:41 a.m.

    William L. Simpson, letter to Charles Kelly, May 5, 1939. Charles Kelly Papers, Marriott Library. Simpson said he knew of two people, one named "Billie Sattell," who went "to the place where [Butch] died and authenticated the story of his death." This is doubtful. No record of any such trip has ever come to light. D. B.

    Carbon County Journal October 9, 1914 P-5
    Wm. Sawtelle, a former Rawlinsite who has been in South America for a few years, is in the city this week renewing acquaintances.

    Yet another version of the man-sent-to-South-America story is that "Billy Sawtelle, who in 1911 shot and killed a man on the main street of Shoshoni, pulled out and left for Buenos Aires. Some time later, when he returned, he brought word that Butch Cassidy had assuredly been killed there in a skirmish with the police. D.B.

  • Anonymous
    April 3, 2010 7:35 a.m.

    Simpson May 1939
    I am confident that Butch Cassidy died in South America by a bullet from his own hand. I know of two persons who went to the place where he died and authenticated the story of his death, and one of them is alive today, and I talked to him not more than three months ago about Cassidy’s death in South America. The other one who went there for the expressed purpose of determining his death was Billie Sattell, who was killed at Pioche, Nevada. I knew Sattell well and discussed Cassidy’s death with him more than once.

    The 1999 issue of The Outlaw Journal also states that Cow Creek, while owned by Hartt, was once managed by Andrew Jebens, an associate of Cassidy's

  • Just Counting Ghosts
    April 2, 2010 9:28 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob: There were actually 8 McCarty children:
    Tom, Bill, Joseph, George, Lois, Laura, Rosa and Reatha.
    Bill Long looks like he had 8 siblings as well according to your report.
    Just counting.

  • Ross Nickle
    April 1, 2010 1:34 p.m.

    For the record; Michelle nor Jerry had anything to do with our web site. Our material is our original research, from many sources. Mr Bob; Nobody knows if the girls in the picture are the actual sisters of Bill Long. We only know that is what Uncle Bill said. Just because the picture apparently has JW Riggs on the back does not prove that it is not the Longabough's. It does however strongly suggest that either a copy or a picture was taken in Lewiston around 1880's. Until more evidence comes out proof is still allusive. Considering the source of the letter we cannot assume that there is any truth in it. BL did not want any truth in it. Although we do believe there is many unintensional truths in it.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 1, 2010 10:57 a.m.

    continued:
    But what of the names on this list? Is it a listing of Bill Long's family? Is it Harry Longabaugh's family, or Tom McCarty's family? Comparing it with both the Longabaugh and McCarty families shows that the names listed are nowhere close to either the Longabaugh or McCarty families. Harry Longabaugh's family consisted of father, Josiah Long, mother Annie G. Place, and children: Elwood Place (the eldest), Samanna, Emma T., Harvey Sylvester, and Harry Alonzo (the Sundance Kid). Tom McCarty's family consisted of at least these family members: father, Alexander McCarty, mother, Mary Ann Farmer, and children: Thomas (Tom) the eldest, William (Bill), Joseph, George, Lois, and Laura. Neither list of children is even close to that of Viola's list, not even as to the number of children.

  • KC
    April 1, 2010 10:16 a.m.

    That didn’t help explain what your trying to prove. Was there a specific date Jebens had to be home? What difference does it make whether Jebens and Sawtelle were traveling together or arrived in Rawlins within hours of one another? Both Jebens and Sawtelle returned to Rawlins in October 1914, after at least two years in South America. The newspaper accounts indicate both men arrived in Rawlins October 9, 1914. Andrew Jebens arrived at his home in Baggs, 75 miles south of Rawlins, October 10, 1914. Both men knew Butch Cassidy, both men were former associates of Cassidy, both men knew Cassidy’s old friends, in Wyoming. It is only reasonable to assume that eventually both Sawtelle and Jebens are going to talk about Cassidy, and their adventures in South America, whether upon arrival or within days of arrival. I’m not understanding what your trying to tell us. Are you saying Sawtelle didn’t go to South America? William Sawtelle didn’t know Andrew Jebens? Andrew Jebens didn’t know Butch Cassidy? How about a logical explanation, instead of all the iffy??

  • Back from the Grave
    March 31, 2010 7:42 p.m.

    Anonymous: Oops, my bad. Doesn't make much sense, does it. What I meant was that from Sept. 8th to October 10th was a long time to travel from New York to Baggs. Usual travel time by train would be about 3-4 days add in a couple of extra days to sight see in NYC and they should have been in Rawlins around the 14th of Sept not around the 9th or 10th of Oct. What did they do in the mean time?? wait around for Billy Sawtelle so that they could all get to Rawlins at the same time and spill the beans on Butch and Sundance together?? Or, was this just a coincidence? Or had Billy already been back in the U.S. for some time and had finally made it back to Rawlins to renew acquaintances the same week that the Jebens' got back.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 31, 2010 2:32 p.m.

    continued:
    The second and larger clue as to Bill Long's origins was contained on the last page of Viola's letter. On the last page she wrote: "The record of my father as near as I know." Her record is as follows:
    "My Grandfather James Long
    My Grandmother Ann Long
    Bro & Sisters Abner killed by indians and his horse brought body home
    Charles
    Frank
    William Henry my father
    Nelson
    Lucy married Jim Moss
    Sarah Salina
    Mary Mahalia
    These names are not in order of ages but I don't know which is the oldest"

    This list of family members created problems for the Merrell and Long families for a long time. For years Viola and other family members tried in vain to track down this family in the area of Biose and Lewiston, Idaho, and Eastern Oregon, but without success. Finally family members discounted the list as either fictitious, or as a type of "code" for Bill's real family, preferring to believe the family speculation the Bill was actually either Tom McCarty or Harry Longabaugh, the Sundance Kid.

  • Anonymous
    March 31, 2010 10:06 a.m.

    Back from the Grave
    Not sure I understand the point your trying to make, please explain.
    “but it took them until Oct 10th? to get to Rawlins. It doesn't look like they were in much of a hurry. I guess they wanted to time their arrival to that of Billy Sawtelle, but got home late.”

  • Back from the Grave
    March 31, 2010 9:37 a.m.

    So the newspapers erred on the child custody. Thanks

  • Anonymous
    March 31, 2010 8:55 a.m.

    She continued that he had pursued a system of cruel treatment, quarreling, criticizing and abusing her, and caused her embarrassment, disgrace, humiliation and suffering. LeFors has said the women of the red light district were “better than she”. She further stated that she knew his income (then as a stock detective) was $150.00 per month, and that she was entitled to attorney’s fees, a portion of his income as temporary and permanent alimony, and custody of the children. Joe’s answer denied her allegations.
    The divorce degree awarded him custody of the children, which was common practice when a woman had no visible means of support. Joe’s statements in the proceedings indicated that the children would go live with a grandmother in Weston County , Bessie’s mother.

  • Anonymous
    March 31, 2010 8:54 a.m.

    Bessie filed for divorce in 1911, then dropped the case and filed again in 1912. In her complaint she stated that for more than 10 years Joe had “denounced, abused, cursed and slandered plaintiff, using to her and about her the most vile, obscene and profane language, when alone with plaintiff and in the presence of third persons, and in the presence of the minor children…,and constantly accused plaintiff of immoral conduct…and continually denounced all the friends and acquaintances of plaintiff as immoral and unfit people with whom to associate”. (First Judicial District, Laramie County District Court Docket 10, number 187, Bessie M. LeFors vs. Joseph LeFors)
    Cont.

  • Back from the Grave
    March 31, 2010 7:55 a.m.

    Joe LeFors messy divorce? - As described, yes messy. Also very public as it created headlines in several Wyoming newspapers. Lefors accused of cruelty. Papers reported that Bessie received custody of her children. Court records say different?

  • Anonymous
    March 30, 2010 7:31 p.m.

    Joe LeFors messy divorce? Court records reflect that Bessie LeFors filed for divorce in 1911, then dropped the case in the fall of 1911. February 1912 Joe LeFors left New York bound for Buenos Aires. June 1912, Joe LeFors returns to Cheyenne. August 1912, Bessie LeFors again files for divorce. First Judicial District, Laramie County District Court Docket 10, number 187, Bessie M. LeFors vs. Joseph LeFors. Joe LeFors awarded property, custody of children. Bessie LeFors received no alimony.

  • Anonymous
    March 29, 2010 6:12 p.m.

    Mr. Magoo, if you will tell me how to get in touch with Larry?? I’ll ask him if he still thinks the Lander bartender was involved in all of this??

  • Back from the Grave
    March 29, 2010 2:26 p.m.

    Or, maybe this story sounds better: Billy Sawtelle and Andrew (Andreas) Jebens were really sent down to South America to find Virgil, since Virgil hadn't been heard of since he left for Buenos Aires the year before. His uncle must have been worried about him.

    By the way Jack, does Larry still think that, that Lander bartender was still involved in all of this??

  • Back from the Grave
    March 29, 2010 2:20 p.m.

    Ha Ha LOL! I have been called worse things than sounding like Dan. Now boys, gird up your loins and lets continue our discussion. Jebens, it seems went to South America to work with George Musgrave, not "go and find Cassidy." He even brought his wife and Kids down with Jano Musgrave later. Sarah got bit by an insect of some sort while in Paraguay and the whole family left for Germany to get treatment. Lets see, they entered the U.S. on the 8th of September 1914, but it took them until Oct 10th? to get to Rawlins. It doesn't look like they were in much of a hurry. I guess they wanted to time their arrival to that of Billy Sawtelle, but got home late.

    Gee, I don't know, maybe all four LeFors, Geiger, Sawtelle, Jebens, got together in Buenos Aries at one of them "ole time rodeos" that were going around, met Butch and Sundance there, (rumor has it they attended some of them) and then cooked up their little scheme before packing up and going home.

  • The Sundance Kids
    March 25, 2010 5:50 p.m.

    Dan attacked me, boo hoo. Cue world's smallest violin.

    Cowboy up guys. Victim not spoken here.

  • Anonymous
    March 25, 2010 4:29 p.m.

    Back from the Grave
    Sorry boys, Dan is the only one I’m aware of with a proven record of attacking everything written or said about Butch Cassidy and the Wild Bunch, without his personal stamp of approval. Your style, methods, words and mannerisms are nearly identical to his. For a long period of time, Dan actively participated in every blog, then suddenly dropped out of the debate. Not realizing that Dan might have one or two like minded friends with the same traits and knowing at least one lived across the pond. I assumed Dan had began using an alias. The only other possible explanation is that Louis Pasteur also perfected cloning.

  • KC
    March 25, 2010 2:28 p.m.

    Back from the Grave
    The Sundance Kids
    The Artful Codger
    It’s not a game, it’s an attempt to encourage open minded researchers, who aren’t intimidated by you boys and the Buck crowd to take another look at Cassidy, in South America. The, as you say, I’ve got a secret crowd certainly brought out the expected negative response. The real question now is not whether Sawtelle, Jebens, Geiger and LeFors went to South America, the question is why you boys are so eager to discount the possibility that they went down there looking for Cassidy. I’d be willing to bet the dead worm in a bottle of Tequila, that your response generated more potential research into their trip, than the discovery that they even went to Buenos Aries. Mission accomplished.

  • The Sundance Kids
    March 25, 2010 12:50 p.m.

    Very seldom while reading the comment page do I break out laughing, but Back From the Grave's summary of the I've Got a Secret crew, AKA the Hint Hint brigade, was hilarious, not to mention spot on.

  • Back from the Grave
    March 25, 2010 10:55 a.m.

    By they way, I don't know why you'all think I am Dan Buck. I am not Dan, never have been. I am just an old schmuck trying to get at the truth. Your little "I have a secret" game is kind of childish. Why don't you just come out and say what your opinion is without the game, or is that what your little Butch Returned group is all about - - playing games?

  • Back from the Grave
    March 25, 2010 10:46 a.m.

    Also while still there one or both of the groups "dropped off" the story from the Anaconda Standard to the Buenos Aires Standard for possible publication, and that "Andy" (hint hint) possibly wrote it. Also while there they decided to leave Geiger there to wander around for years and years to dig up more information. That Lefors had no real motivation to return home since his slot machine venture was such a great success, but he returned anyway since his wife wanted to divorce him.

    Well this is about all I could get out of your posts since they are so cryptic. Please clarify where I am wrong.

  • Back from the Grave
    March 25, 2010 10:34 a.m.

    Now, let me see if I understand what you are trying to say in your "I have a secret game." From what you have posted (correct me if I am wrong) you are saying that in 1912 some of Butch's old friends (Ryan, Magor, Charter etc.) in the Rawlins area got together and sent Sawtelle and "Andy" (hint hint) to Argentina to look for Butch and Sundance, and also visit the Musgraves. At the same time LeFors and Geiger also decided to go to SA on their business trip and using the trip as cover to also looks for BC&SK since at least Geiger was also close friends with the Butch groupies.
    While there they both found out the truth about BC&SK and had a secret meeting in some English bar where they conspired to do a cover-up of the facts to protect BC&SK who were both presumably both alive.
    cont'd

  • Anonymous
    March 25, 2010 9:04 a.m.


    There us a link to an article on Drudge that a Butch Cassidy movie is going to filmed in Bolivia. The Sundance Kid will not be portrayed. It will be a story of Cassidy living in Bolivia in his latter years trying to pull one last robbery.

  • KC
    March 23, 2010 12:46 p.m.

    Now tell me this didn’t happen. Four Americans with no foreign language skills didn’t have a chance meeting at a favorite hangout for English speaking foreigners in Buenos Aires. With a little research, I think you boys will find this chance meeting with Sawtelle, resulted in the premature departure of Joe LeFors from Buenos Aires, and his failure to mention the encounter upon his return.

  • KC
    March 23, 2010 12:40 p.m.

    I keep giving you boys clues as to who and why, two men with close ties to former members and associates of Butch Cassidy‘s gang, were sent to South America, in 1912. I gave you a clue as to why they went, even gave you their names. Both men returned home on the same day in 1914. Joe LeFors and Percy Geiger just happened to decide selling slot machines in Buenos Aires, in early 1912, would be a smart business venture. Remember, Percy Geiger was in Rawlins and in tight with Jack Ryan and his friends during the planning stage of the Buenos Aires trip, by Andy and Billy. Percy Geiger had been a saloon keeper and bartender in Rawlins for years, he knew William Sawtelle as well as Andy, as a lawman, Joe LeFors would have known Sawtelle.
    Continued.

  • Old Campfire Story Teller
    March 23, 2010 11:59 a.m.

    OK, Dan, if you don't want to play "Find Andy" with us, how about applying all you learned from Kid Charter about people going to SA in 1912 and applying it to Mike Bell's "find" of the BA Standard article of 1912 and Kid Charter's find of the 1910 Anaconda Standard article, both attributed to SK? You're already into this one on Deseret News' other blog, so we might as well have a go at it on this one.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 23, 2010 11:59 a.m.

    Viola in her letter states: "the picture which I have was taken at Lewiston, Idaho J.W. Rigs Photographer." J. W. Riggs owned a photographic studio in Lewiston during the mid 1880s through the mid 1890s. The photo appears to have been taken during this time. Samanna and Emma Longabaugh never traveled into the West and could not have been in a photo taken in Lewiston, Idaho. So while the photo is of Bill Long's sisters, it is not of Samanna and Emma Longabaugh. The photo does indicate, however, that the Long family must have resided somewhere close to Lewiston, Idaho in the late 1800s. This coincides with what Viola explained in her letter that bill Long had said that: "his father was a cattle man and farmer lived somewhere near Boise Idaho." While Lewiston is not particularly close to Boise, both are in Idaho, and from the perspective of Eastern or Southern Utah, Lewiston could be considered "somewhere near Boise."

  • Back from the Grave
    March 23, 2010 11:50 a.m.

    Is Andy lost? Maybe we should start a search party.

  • Back from the Grave
    March 23, 2010 11:19 a.m.

    I don't think Dan was hunting for Andy. Neither was I.

  • Old Campfire Storey Teller
    March 23, 2010 10:42 a.m.

    Suggestion: Someone on the blog needs to start keeping a list of the names and numbers of WY alleged Wild Bunch members or affiliates either on the way or in South America in 1912. Don't forget about Andy and his wife and family. You did find Andy, didn't you Dan?

  • KC
    March 23, 2010 8:17 a.m.

    Dusty
    1912 - October 1914

  • Dusty
    March 23, 2010 5:42 a.m.

    Thanks to KC for the Billy Sawtelle info. Sawtelle seems to be an authentic "Wild West" gunman, the type of fellow who was a real life model for many fictional badmen. I think the truth is more interesting than fiction. Can you tell me the approximate date he went to South America, and when he returned?

    Thanks

  • Michelle Nickle Smedema
    March 21, 2010 3:36 p.m.

    It recently came to my attention that my cousins Ross and Bambie put up a website that we had no prior knowledge of and want to reiterate that my father and I have nothing to do with their website, research, claims, etc. Anyone needing clarification can contact us directly.

  • KC
    March 20, 2010 1:19 p.m.

    March 1897 Hayden, Colorado
    John Ogg better known as “Texas John” was killed by Billy Sawtelle. A coroner’s jury exonerated Sawtell from all blame in the killing and there were no tears shed when Ogg was put beneath the sod.

    April 1897 Craig, Colorado
    Sawtell suddenly concludes that his life was in danger and without any provocation attempts to kill Kent Whiting, the ball passing through his left arm near the shoulder. Sawtell got his horse, left $50 in the saloon for payment of Whiting’s surgical and medical attendance and disappeared as rapidly as his horse could carry him. Whiting survived his wound.

    April 1903 Wolton, Wyoming
    Byron Crawford, was shot through the shoulder last Saturday afternoon at Wolton, by a man named William Sawtell, According to Crawford's own story, he was entirely at fault, says that if Sawtell is arrested, he will not appear against him. Crawford survived his wound.

    CASPER 1916
    William C. Sawtell remains will arrive tomorrow from Ely, Nevada, where he was shot and killed by Roger Rutherford.
    Sawtell is claimed to have been a member of the Cassidy and Hole-in the Wall crowd, and was known as a gun man.

  • Anonymous
    March 19, 2010 4:06 p.m.

    Thanks for the information, but I still don't understand how Tom McCarty, born in 1851, could possibly be Bill Long regardless of whether he was born in 1860, 1864, or 1867. There seems to be a 9,13, or 16 year age difference and that seems too great not to be noticed. I tried checking Ross and Bambi's webpage and it appears to be down. Another re-write?

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 19, 2010 2:06 p.m.

    Viola in her letter states: “the picture which I have was taken at Lewiston, Idaho J.W. Rigs Photographer.”

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 19, 2010 12:17 p.m.

    Viola’s letter contained two vital clues as to who Bill Long’s family was, and where they had lived. The first clue concerned the photo that had hung in Bill Long’s house at the bottom of the stairs. The photo was of two young women, one seated and the other standing. Bill Long had often stated to his wife and children that the photo was of his “two sisters.” At first glance the photo resembles a similar photo of Sammana and Emma Longabaugh, Harry Longabaugh’s sisters in which one is seated and the other is standing. To some the resemblance was so great that they felt this was “proof” that Bill Long had to be Harry Longabaugh, otherwise why would Bill Long have a photo of Harry Longabaugh’s sisters hanging on his wall? However on closer examination, they seem to be of different people. The telling clue how ever was on the back of the photo. On the back, either written, or more probably stamped was J.W. Riggs Photographer. Lewiston, I. T.

  • Back from the Grave
    March 19, 2010 10:39 a.m.

    Ross may have changed his mind. I know he did say at one time that he thought it was really Tom that was killed in the bank robbery, not Bill, and it was a matter of miss-identification of the body. According to Ross Nickle's and Bambie Zeddis's re-vamped website their stories all revolve around Tom McCarty being Bill Long. So it seems that he has changed his mind. Their latest claim is that Tom on Sept 10th 1893, the day that Silas Morrell died showed up at the Morrell farm and hired on as a hired hand.

  • Anonymous
    March 19, 2010 5:21 a.m.

    I think that Tom McCarty was born in 1851. Doesn't that make him far too old to be Bill Long? I thought Ross Nickle believed Bill Long was Bill McCarty. What happened?

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 18, 2010 11:21 a.m.

    Continued:
    In time two family theories developed concerning William Henry Long’s background. The first was that William Henry Long was Tom McCarty, brother of Bill McCarty and a member of the McCarty outlaw family. The second theory was that he was Harry Longabaugh, the Sundance Kid. The McCarty theory was based on the disappearance of Tom McCarty after the September 7, 1893 Delta Colorado Bank robbery. After the robbery, Tom had been reportedly seen in the area of the Henry Mountains of Southern Utah. The Longabaugh theory was based on similarities of an old family photo of Bill Long and existing photos of Harry Longabaugh, along with the speculation that Longabaugh did not die along with Butch Cassidy in South America. Subsequent DNA testing from both McCarty and Longabaugh descendants with bones from William Henry Long have proven that he was not related to either McCarty or Longabaugh. So who then was William Henry Long?

  • Dusty
    March 18, 2010 9:31 a.m.

    I'm very interested in the Billy Sawtelle story. Does anyone know the date of his birth and in which state he was born? Several published sources claim that Sawtelle was in a gunfight in WY and killed a man. Is this true, or is it merely a "story" without foundation in fact?

    Thanks

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 16, 2010 12:49 p.m.

    As a result, over the years, family stories concerning Bill Long were expanded and embellished. At family gatherings many of the older generations would exchange stories that that they had heard as youths about Bill’s exploits as an “outlaw.” Speculation was also often exchanged at these gatherings concerning Bill’s origins. With Viola’s apparent failure to track Bill Long with the information that she had, this speculation started to embrace the idea that Bill Long was hiding a past identity. That in reality, William Henry Long (Bill) was not his real name. That in meeting and marrying Luzernia Allred Morrell Bill was concealing his true identity, a past that he did not want to be known. William Henry Long was an alias he could use to hide from the law. These stories and speculations only grew when descendants found that Bill had given conflicting information concerning his origin, age and birth place to various family members and in government records. For instance he gave his birth year in different records as 1860, 1864, and 1867, and his birth place as Wyoming, Montana, or Idaho.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 15, 2010 4:50 p.m.

    Continued:
    Viola, Bill Long’s elder daughter, had been interested for some time in her ancestry, and particularly in her father’s family. In her letter she detailed what she knew of Bill’s family and indicated that she was “very anxious to locate some of my father’s people.” She apparently was frustrated that she had been unable to find additional information on his family. In her letter she lamented that “sometimes I wonder if his real name was Long.” In later years she even took ancestor hunting trips with her uncle, Jack Allred to the areas which she had been told by her father that he had lived. On one of these trips she even went as far as Lake Louise in Alberta Canada. She was unable, however to confirm any of her information.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 15, 2010 4:46 p.m.

    In 1937, not long after the death of her father, Viola Long Ehlers wrote a letter to a close relative detailing what she knew of her father’s family. For many years it had been speculated within the larger Long and Morrell family that William Henry Long had been associated in some way with the outlaw group known as the “Wild Bunch.” William Henry Long, “Bill” to his family, did not discourage this talk, in fact, in a way he encouraged it and even contributed to it with hints and stories of his “outlaw days.” Sometimes he would even go so far to claim the he was the outlaw Bill McCarty, who was killed in 1893 so that he could tell “outlaw stories about himself.”

  • Back from the Grave
    March 12, 2010 9:32 p.m.

    Kid Charter (KC?): I didn't mean to make you mad. I thought we were having a nice cordial discussion concerning Sawtelle, LeFors, Geiger, etc., their trips to South America, and whether they learned anything or not concerning BC&SK on these trips. I even conceded your point that William Morgan alias Sawtelle was not the William Sawtelle who returned from South America Oct 1914. (I'm still not sure what your point was on the Morgan/Sawtelle thing)

    I was really hoping that you might be able to provide information on what Sawtelle, LeFors, or Geiger may have found concerning Butch and Sundance on these trips, because from published reports of these trips there was nothing to indicate that anything had been found. That LeFors and Geiger's trip was nothing but a business trip. You have to think that they would be at least curious about Butch and Sundance. Why wasn't anything mentioned? Were they not interested? Or did they have a secret agenda, as you seem to intimate, which they did not report on?

  • KC
    March 12, 2010 7:17 p.m.

    Back from the Grave, The Artful Codger, Dan
    On a former blog, I remember a gentleman referred to individuals who disagreed with his point of view as obscurants, trolls, and discussants, I believe you are one them obscurants.
    No harm, I was trolling anyway, your arguments against where predictable and expected.
    The seed has been planted, in the near future we will see what crops up. No need to direct your reply to me, I’ve accomplished what I set out to do. Adis

  • The Artful Codger
    March 12, 2010 2:13 p.m.

    By the way, Anonymous, good contribution on the LeFors divorce matter. (Are you Dan?)

    KC, one additional thought, the drift of your remarks go beyond "the possibility." At the close, your comment assumes that Lefors had some "findings" about Cassidy, and the "fact" that he didn't make them public "is suspicious to say the least."

    But there's no evidence that LeFors made any findings, so how can his not making public something that hasn't been established to begin with be a fact? And how could that be suspicious? (Are you asserting a complot? LeFors was bribed, threatened, tickled?)

    Let's put it another way. "The possibility that LeFors was down in Argentina hunting unicorns cannot be ruled out." I agree. Can't be ruled out. "The fact that he didn't make his unicorn findings, whether rumor or fact, public is suspicious." I disagree. We haven't established that Lefors was hunting unicorns. First things first.

  • The Artful Codger
    March 12, 2010 1:52 p.m.

    KC,

    Who is Dan? The posts on the Sawtelle topic were from Back From the Grave and Kid Charter. I don't think Back From the Grave is Dan. Is Kid Charter Dan? Are you playing a prank on us KC?

    Seriously, I don't think anyone is "attacking," as you put it, "the possibility that Joe LeFors may have gone to Buenos Aires in search of Cassidy, dead or alive."

    In fact, "The Artful Codger" -- oh, sorry, that's me -- commented a couple of days ago that it's not out of the question that Cassidy's whereabouts might have come up during Lefors's visit to Buenos Aires, especially since the subject of Yankee bandits had been bruited about in the Buenos Aires dailies not long before he arrived.

    However, the only evidence -- pesky word, "evidence," often gets in the way of a good story -- we have on the motive for Lefors's trip is from Wyoming newspapers indicating that he had a business venture planned in Australia or Argentina, and that he opted for Argentina.

    At some point additional evidence may turn up. Then we can recalibrate our conclusions.

  • KC
    March 12, 2010 12:29 p.m.

    The point is simple Dan, you went into your usual attack mode thinking you had me by the ying-yang on Sawtelle. I did my home work on Sawtelle and Morgan before I posted, not after, as evidenced by your e-mails requesting information on the Morgan, Sawtelle affair, after your posted statement about Sawtelle. A simple, I was wrong about Morgan being Sawtelle would have been sufficient, instead of that garbage you call an acknowledgement. Now your attacking the possibility that Joe LeFors may have gone to Buenos Aries in search of Cassidy, dead or alive, in 1912. No one can say with absolute certainty that LeFors and Geiger did or didn’t go down there to find Cassidy, but the possibility can’t be ruled out, just because you say LeFors was down there strictly on a business venture, with little thought of Cassidy, Hogwash. The fact that he didn’t make his findings, whether rumor or fact public, is suspicious to say the least.

  • Anonymous
    March 12, 2010 11:37 a.m.

    Bessie LeFors filed for divorce in 1911, then dropped the case and filed again in August 1912. In her complaint she stated that for more than 10 years Joe had “denounced, abused, cursed and slandered plaintiff, using to her and about her the most vile, obscene and profane language, when alone with plaintiff and in the presence of third persons, and in the presence of the minor children…,and constantly accused plaintiff of immoral conduct…and continually denounced all the friends and acquaintances of plaintiff as immoral and unfit people with whom to associate”. (First Judicial District, Laramie County District Court Docket 10, number 187, Bessie M. LeFors vs. Joseph LeFors)

  • The Artful Codger
    March 12, 2010 8:18 a.m.

    Re William Morgan is/is not William Sawtelle: reporters in those days casually tossed names around (not to mention casually misspelled them) and speculated with abandon. If a lesser known bandit could be linked with a more famous bandit, like Butch Cassidy, go for it. If the bandit operates in the northern Rockies, make him a denizen of the Hole-in-the Wall. If he disappears, suggest he went to Argentina.

    Case in point, in mid-1912 the law was hot after the Whitney brothers for sundry crimes. Reporters managed to work into their stories references to Butch Cassidy, Harvey Logan, and Argentina. "Wyo. Outlaws Escape to South America, Report," was the 16 May 1912 Cheyenne Leader headline.

    In Argentina, the outlaws "will join Harvey Logan, Butch Cassidy . . . . who have been operating in that country for five years."

    What, were Cassidy and Logan running a bed-and-breakfast in Buenos Aires? Posthumously, at that.

    "Satisfied that the outlaws have left America," lawmen "have given up the man hunt."

    The Whitneys never went to Argentina, but it made a great story. And the lawmen, well, they probably headed to the nearest saloon for a cold beer.

  • Back from the Grave
    March 11, 2010 8:36 p.m.

    And your point is?? I already agreed with you in my 9:44 a.m. Feb. 12, 2010 post.

    The Colorado papers were full of coverage on the Morgan escape and Trial, particularly the Moffat County Courier. Within days of his escape, Morgan was being described as "alias Sartelle," or "Sawtelle." or even "Sarelie" as you quote. The Laramie papers then picked up on the "Hole-in-the-Wall" angle. Why is not exactly clear.

  • KC
    March 11, 2010 7:19 p.m.

    Back from the Grave

    Your post 1:24 p.m. Feb. 11, 2010, you said, “It would have been impossible for Sawtelle to have left before 1913 since he was involved in a jail escape and shoot-out in Craig, Colorado.”

    Impossible, LeFors and Geiger?

    August 8, 1912
    William Morgan, alias Sarelie, who, in company with Charles Fansen and Andrew Comstock, broke jail in Craig on July 2Sth last. At Dixon Morgan thought he would try the insanity dodge and played his part so well that he succeeded in making everyone believe, even a physician, who pronounced, his condition critical, that he was really crazy, but when Sheriff Ledford appeared upon the scene things took a different aspect. Ledford looked the man over, took him by the ears and gave his head a good shaking, and told him to "come out of it." This seemed to be sufficient to make him lose his feigned craziness and he immediately became as rational as ever. Morgan said he had planned to try the insanity dodge at his trial. He was brought back and lodged in jail again
    August 22, 1912
    William Morgan sentenced 7 to 8 years Colorado State Penitentiary.

  • The Artful Codger
    March 9, 2010 5:11 p.m.

    KC,

    Butch and Sundance's South American activities (alleged and otherwise), especially in Argentina, had been in and out of U.S. newspapers well into the 1910s. Moreover, not long before Lefors and Greiger arrived in Buenos Aires, the Argentine papers had been awash in stories of Yankee bandits dying in a shootout with police in Patagonia.

    On the other hand, the news that Butch and Sundance had departed Argentina in 1905 and via Bolivia the planet earth in 1908 had not yet obtained wide circulation.

    Thus, it would not be out of the question that during LeFors's brief sojourn in Argentina and Geiger's lengthier visit to the region, the subject of Butch/Sundance's whereabouts might have come up, perhaps in a letter home, whatever.

  • Back from the Grave
    March 9, 2010 1:06 p.m.

    I don't know what you think I am worried about. I am not spinning anything. As of now there is no indication that LeFors and Geigers South America trip was nothing but a business trip. If Geiger wrote letters to his mother, and he does seem to be a letter writer with some skill, that would be fantastic. Anything in them concerning Cassidy I would welcome, not only to me but I think others interested in the Wild Bunch would be interested also. They have yet to be found or made public which makes any speculation of what they contained, just that . . . speculation.

  • KC
    March 9, 2010 12:46 p.m.

    When you start spinning the Geiger/LeFors issue the way you have, it’s a good indication that your worried. In the case of Percy Geiger, as with William Morgan, you should be worried. Geiger wrote letters to his mother, telling her of his adventures in South America, his involvement with Joe LeFors, and their search for Cassidy. It’s my understanding that some of these letters may have survived. If found and made public, we may learn more about what really transpired.

  • The Artful Codger
    March 9, 2010 12:45 p.m.

    I don't think an anonymous quote from Wikipedia asserting that LeFors was an "ineffective" lawman constitutes much of a case.

    Dan Thrapp, Encyclopedia of Frontier Biography, thought otherwise. Likewise, the above-mentioned Cheyenne State Leader: "LeFors has the reputation of having been one of the best stock detectives the state has ever known."

  • Back from the Grave
    March 9, 2010 12:41 p.m.

    I agree Geiger's ten years in South America was of his own choosing, and he was not on LeFors payroll.

    You said:
    "In late 1911, Geiger knew certain individuals were making plans to send two men to Buenos Aires. I suppose it was just a coincidence that Geiger went into partnership with Joe LeFors, in a scheme to sell Wyoming slot machines, in of all places, Argentina."

    and:
    "opposing sides had men wandering around Argentina, Bolivia, and Paraguay for years. I doubt Geiger was selling slot machines to the Sheroties and Togo Indians. Evidently, Geiger didn’t find anything, otherwise Joe LeFors would have made it known

    and:
    [Lefors]"had his own man wandering around Argentina, Bolivia, and Paraguay for years."

    I said I doubted that LeFors was much interested in BC&SK at all, and sure didn't figure into his 1911/12 trip to Argentina.

  • The Artful Codger
    March 9, 2010 12:21 p.m.

    Correction:

    "in Cheyenne that he" not "that he in Cheyenne"

  • The Artful Codger
    March 9, 2010 12:19 p.m.

    I think if you read up a bit more on LeFors's police career, you'll find that his achievements were not limited to Tom Horn.

    Second, his wife filed for divorce on grounds of "extreme cruelty" in late 1911, several months prior to departure from the United States. See: 7 November 1911, Cheyenne State Leader. The story also mentions that "it has been known for some time that he in Cheyenne that he intends to change the scene of his activities soon to either Australia or the Argentine Republic, to both of which countries he has been offered a prominent and lucrative position."

    To repeat, there is no evidence presented to date that Joe Lefors went to Argentina for any other reason than to pursue the slot-machine enterprise.

  • KC
    March 9, 2010 10:15 a.m.

    Who said Geiger was on LeFors payroll for years and years, you, not me. After Geiger’s unexplained 1,200 mile adventure by mule around Argentina, Bolivia, and Paraguay, he returned to Buenos Aries, the 10th of December 1913, a very sick man. Percy Archie Geiger remained in Buenos Aires until 1923, of his choosing, not because he was on LeFors payroll.

    It’s not the least bit surprising Joe LeFors doesn’t mention Argentina and his failed attempt to find Cassidy in his autobiography, why would he tell anyone he once again failed to bring in his man. LeFors had a habit of bragging about his exploits, and his prowess as a lawman. Other than the questionable methods used in the arrest of Horn, “Lefors was not an effective lawman. If anything, he was ineffective.”

    By the way the very messy divorce was after his return from Buenos Aries.

  • Back from the Grave
    March 8, 2010 8:43 p.m.

    Just because Geiger was well know around Rawlins doesn't mean he was "sent" to South America to search for BC&SK. He went to either sell slot machines or to set them up in some sort of business venture. It may just as well been a coincidence. Cassidy's "friends" around Rawlins were not in financial shape to be sending people traipsing all over South America for years and years.

    As for LeFors, as soon as he quit the Marshal's office, he probably did forget all about BC&SK, at least as far as pursuing them. As the Codger said, he LeFors only mentioned them in passing in his autobiography. Yup in 1912/1913 I doubt LeFors was much interested in Cassidy.

    Not every trip to South America by a Wyoming resident was a hunt for Cassidy.

  • Back from the Grave
    March 8, 2010 8:30 p.m.

    Percy "Slots" Geiger and his slot machines were well known in both Wyoming and Colorado, but by 1912/13 the laws were such that it was virtually impossible for him to operate them profitably. Laws in other states were just about as bad. South America at this time was seen as a new frontier with many different economic possibilities ie. mining, ranching, etc. Articles appeared on a regular basis in U.S. newspapers concerning South America. LeFors and Geiger were just two of many that went to South America on business ventures from Wyoming.

    It just so happened that LeFors was involved in a very messy divorce and I am sure that this looked like a good opportunity to get away for a while.

  • KC
    March 8, 2010 5:29 p.m.

    1912 was not Percy Geiger’s first adventure into the business of selling Wyoming slot machines.

    1905: Geiger, proprietor of the several slot machines in this city, has shipped them all to New Mexico. Mr. Geiger will follow them in a few days.

    In late 1911, Geiger knew certain individuals were making plans to send two men to Buenos Aires. I suppose it was just a coincidence that Geiger went into partnership with Joe LeFors, in a scheme to sell Wyoming slot machines, in of all places, Argentina.

    Are You suggesting Joe LeFors forgot about Cassidy and Longabaugh?

    Joe Lefors 1903 relocation to Nicaragua in no way parallels Argentina. In 1912, Tom Horn was long dead. In 1903 you had the Jack Martin affair, it was to hot in Cheyenne for Joe LeFors and his friends.

  • The Artful Codger
    March 8, 2010 3:21 p.m.

    LeFors was in the posse pursuing the Tipton robbers, but that was after all his job. He was a Wyoming lawman. There's no evidence, however, that he was in any way obsessed about hunting Butch or Sundance. (Yes, that's the way it plays out in the 1969 movie, but that was William Goldman's dramatic device, not a historical fact) In LeFors's autobiography Butch is mentioned only in passing, and Sundance not at all.

    LeFors's 1911 Argentina adventure parallels his 1903 relocation to Nicaragua, where he hired out to a cattle enterprise. After a few months, he threw in the towel and came home. Butch and Sundance were at the time ranching in Argentina, out of Lefors's sight and mind.

    Just because we're interested in the fate of the two outlaws doesn't mean everybody else was.

  • an unbiased observer....
    March 8, 2010 1:40 p.m.

    I think many of you are so knowledgeable that all the historical information is clouding simple good common sense. After the shoot out in Bolivia, all accounts of these two vanished into the netherworld. IF they returned, there would have been letters, journals, diaries, gossip, SOMETHING that would have verified their return(s)and not by family members who wanted to have some 'fun'. They were both famous by this time and it's not only highly unlikely but almost impossible to keep something as explosive as their returning from the 'dead' a secret. There were far too many operatives and far too many rewards on both their heads that someone, somewhere wouldn't want to cash in. Their bodies will more than likely never be found unless some new device can find skeletons buried over 100 years ago. My deepest respect goes to all of you whose thirst to solve one of the greatest 'old wild west' mysteries is never ending but perhaps the simpliest answer is the correct one.

  • Back from the Grave
    March 8, 2010 1:30 p.m.

    The Joe Lefors Percy "Slots" Geiger business deal and trip to South America makes for good reading. Someone before now should have written something on it. LeFors, probably since it was a bust, never really mentioned it in his autobiography. The whole idea of taking a bunch of slot machines to Argentina where gambling was more open and less restricted was an interesting.

    Now just how this all applies to BC&SK is puzzling, because by all accounts this was strictly a business trip by both LeFors and Geiger. When LeFors found the machines ruined and the trip fruitless he "lit a shuck" for home and his impending divorce. Geiger chose to stay, and by his letters had an adventurous time. I really doubt however that LeFors paid him to stay there for ten years just to look for BC&SK, or that a BC&SK search consumed even a fraction of their time.

    You really can't call Geiger LeFors "man."

  • Kid Charter
    March 4, 2010 7:54 p.m.

    Great job Bob, a week after I posted, you found Slots Geiger. Now lets see if you can find Andy? Then maybe you can tell me why opposing sides had men wandering around Argentina, Bolivia, and Paraguay for years. I doubt Geiger was selling slot machines to the Sheroties and Togo Indians. Evidently, Geiger didn’t find anything, otherwise Joe LeFlors would have made it known. Get out of the jacuzzi Bob, you might learn more around a campfire with a bunch of old men with corupted memories.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 4, 2010 6:49 p.m.

    Now that some of the family's records that have been hidden, and hoarded have been revealed, the real truth will shortly be revealed. Hiding pertinent information like what was written on the back of the picture of Bill Long's sisters never leads to the truth. If you re-read some of the earlier comments, you will see that this information was was purposely withheld. This was because it could not reconciled with their pet theory. Even in the KSL TV piece that showed the photos this was withheld.

    My most humble thanks go to Ross and Bambie for making this and other information public so that the real truth can finally be known, even though the final result will be vastly different than what either they or Jerry expects.

    But hey, I'm still interested in the tales the old men are swapping about LaFors, Geiger, and group in South America. I had no idea the LaFors got around so much. His autobiography sure didn't mention much about it.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 4, 2010 6:26 p.m.

    Anonymous: Possibly, but I prefer magic mushrooms instead. The jacuzzi is hot so jump on in and let's party!

    The whole purpose of the little exercise as posted above was to show that there were other possible explanations concerning Bill Long's past that needed to be explored, and eliminated, before spending large sums of money and proclaiming that Bill Long was the Sundance Kid. Each possible explanation has to be examined, doubted, tested, and disproved, or confirmed before coming to a conclusion. Every angle has to be thoroughly explored. The William Long, son of Alexander Long story was but one example, but a very useful example to illustrate this point.

  • Anonymous
    March 4, 2010 2:54 p.m.

    Bob tell us, were you in your jacuzzi smoking peyote when you dreamed up with this whopper?

    Ghosttown Bob | 12:36 p.m. Jan. 29, 2009
    Now that the hoopla has died down about William Henry Long, it is about time to reveal real story.

    William Long was born 1857, possibly Feb. 2. in Springfield twp., Fayette County PA. His parents were Alexander and Mary Jane Long. Alexander was a cooper by trade. William came from a large family of at least 8 children. The family moved from Springfield to Iowa City, Johnson Co., Iowa around 1863 when William was about 6 years old where his father continued working as a cooper.
    Around 1880 William moved with his sister Minnie to Ft. D.A. Russell, near Laramie, Wyo. to live with his older sister Julia Ann and her husband Henry Parker. Henry Parker in 1880 was working as a Freighter and wagon master, hauling freight out from Laramie. It was at this time that William Long became familiar with Northern Wyoming and Eastern Montana as he help his brother-in-law freight goods to the distant Army posts along the Bozeman trail up into Montana.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 4, 2010 9:22 a.m.

    For you information the case has been closed for quite a while. Your comment is completely irrelevant. Roscoe, Charter, and the rest are just a bunch of old men sitting around telling campfire stories and having a good time trying to come up with the best whopper. Don't spoil their fun.

  • Yours Truely,
    March 3, 2010 2:19 p.m.

    you guys are allll so stupid quit fighting about this ( Back to the Grave, Roscoe, Anonomys, The Sundance Kids, etc.) you guys are allll soooo wrong. I am a historian detective and i was submitted to solve this case and indeed did i figure it out. Or so the best conclusion that anyone has rested upon... It is said not to say to the world or media about this case because of a family decision and they were not pleased that we actually dug him out of his resting place. They did not want their family member to be known out to the world when he is infact dead. I know what you're thinking....Stupid right? Well they are actually mormon so no religion should be fought upon. So, go on ahead thinking your uterally stupid thoughts.
    As they say in court, CASE CLOSED LOSERS!

  • Kid Charter
    Feb. 25, 2010 1:41 p.m.

    1913
    Joe LeFors of this city, who went with him, but later returned is in receipt, of a letter in which he relates his experiences in the interior of the South American continent.

    "Well, Joe, I have had some experiences here. I have traveled all over Argentina, Bolivia, and part of Paraguay. I have seen some good times, but more of the bad and tough ones. I returned here the 10th of December from Bolivia and Paraguay, after traveling over 1,200 on mule back. We were up near the equator and it was awfully hot. For days we traveled thru dense jungles alive with beasts. At night the sounds of wild animals and birds at the water holes would simply drive you crazy. At latitude 23 we traveled east and crossed the Pilcama river into Paraguay. "The Sheroties and Togo Indians are very bad there and there is not a settler in the entire country, and not one domestic animal could be seen. "I have been sick ever since I came back I think I have jungle fever and I have broken out with painful blisters. I do not leave the hotel and am under the doctor’s care.”

  • Kid Charter
    Feb. 25, 2010 11:22 a.m.

    What did Joe Lefors have to say about the deaths of Cassidy and Longabaugh?
    He had his own man wandering around Argentina, Bolivia, and Paraguay for years.

  • Kid Charter
    Feb. 12, 2010 12:08 p.m.

    Back From The Grave
    Newspaper Article:
    “Wm. Sawtelle, a former Rawlinsite who has been in South America for a few years, is in the city this week renewing acquaintances.”

    Now understand, I’m only retelling what I was told by acquaintances of William Sawtelle. They also knew Jack Ryan, Bert Charter, William Lay, Will Simpson, etc. I also know of a second man from the Snake River country, who returned to Rawlins from Paraguay the same month as William Sawtelle. This man had close ties to Bert Charter, the Magors and the Caverts. The men I’m referring to in my retelling, talked to both men within hours after their return, not months or years. Now, I’m not telling you everything I know, but I believe I have a pretty good idea when and why the original version was changed from not sure to dead.

  • Back from the Grave
    Feb. 12, 2010 9:44 a.m.

    But, of course he was neither one. Thanks for clearing things up.

  • Back from the Grave
    Feb. 12, 2010 9:42 a.m.

    31 July 1912 Craig CO: "William Sawtelle, alias William Morgan . . . said to be leaders of the notorious 'Hole-in-the wall' gang of desperatoes . . . Sawtelle, one of the gang is known in this city, having been a visitor here at intervals for several years, and formerly lived in the county"

    Or how about Ben Hickman?? Escaped with Jack Dempsey in Feb 1912 he was about the same age as Morgan. Craig authorities though so for a time.

  • Kid Charter
    Feb. 11, 2010 5:00 p.m.

    Back from the Grave
    Thursday August 8, 1912 Craig Colo.
    “Morgan is in a hospital at Dixon, Wyo., suffering from insanity brought on by the terrible exposure. He has since become a raving maniac and is strapped to his bed. At times the bandit sobs like a baby, relating tales of his childhood. "Mother"
    is the oft-repeated word of the boy gunman”.

    At age 42, it’s doubtful anyone would describe William Sawtelle as the boy gunman. Of course, there is the possibility that William Morgan was alias William Sawtelle?

  • Kid Charter
    Feb. 11, 2010 4:20 p.m.

    Back from the Grave
    Craig, Colo., July 31, 1912 – Charles Frazen, William Sawtelle, alias William Morgan, and Andrew Comstock, the three prisoners who escaped from the jail here last night.
    Are you telling me they tried convicted and sentenced William Morgan to the Colorado State Penitentiary, for the escape, knowing all along that he was William Sawtelle?

  • Back from the Grave
    Feb. 11, 2010 1:29 p.m.

    Why would William Sawtelle have told Charter and Ryan a different story? He seemed to have claimed to everyone else that they were dead.

  • Back from the Grave
    Feb. 11, 2010 1:24 p.m.

    It would have been impossible for Sawtelle to have left before 1913 since he was involved in a jail escape and shoot-out in Craig, Colorado in the summer of 1912. By August of 1912, he had been re-captured and was in a Dixon hospital suffering from insanity.
    On returning, it appears that the emissary, or emissaries gave differing accounts of Butch and Sundance's fate. Allegedly in Utah he produced a picture that he claimed was of the dead Butch and Sundance and told several people that they were dead. This included Gibbons, Lay, Bracken and others. Though Bracken, on seeing the photo though that the Butch of the photo looked more like Tom Dilly. Charles Kelly tried in vain to get a copy of the photo, but it seems that Sawtelle got himself killed in a gunfight in Ely in 1916 and not one knew what happened to the photo after that.

  • Back from the Grave
    Feb. 11, 2010 1:10 p.m.

    From what I have read, after Butch and Sundance had not been heard from for a while, and rumors were circulating that they had been killed some of their old friends, Charter, Simpson, Bracken, Gibbons, Lay, Warner,and possibly others went in on a collection to send someone to South America to find out what may have happened. Just who that was depended on who was doing the talking. It could have been Sawtelle, or a man named Burton, or Walker or any two of them. Edmund Crab, an old Shoshoni, Wyo resident claimed it was "Billy Sawtelle" who left sometime after a shootout in Shoshoni in 1911 which was two years before Musgrave moved to Paraguay.

  • Back from the Grave
    Feb. 10, 2010 2:40 p.m.

    Wyoming Native: No disrespect, but I did check my notes. Wilson D. Smith not William Smith was stock inspector for Custer County. He is usually referred to as W.D. Smith, but in some accounts he has been referred to as Wm Smith, Wm D Smith, "Lame Billy" Smith, "Lame Willie" Smith, Deputy Smith or just Billy Smith. In one newspaper account out of Milwaukee he is referred to in the same article as Wm. Smith, Wilson L. Smith, and Wilson D. Smith.

    Wilson D. Smith born 2 may 1854 in Travis County (or Bell County) Texas to Harvey Smith and Maria Davidson. Married abt 1894 to Katherine Miller. Lived in Miles City, Montana and was the Custer County stock inspector for many years. He died 5 April 1915. As stock inspector he was also deputized as a Deputy Sheriff of Custer County.

  • Wyoming Native
    Feb. 9, 2010 8:56 a.m.

    BFTG- You should not blog without checking your notes. Mr. Smith from Miles City, Montana was William D. Smith not Wilson D. Smith!

  • Back from the Grave
    Feb. 8, 2010 9:12 a.m.

    Driftwood: What I was trying to say was that - in the context of whether William Henry Long was the Sundance Kid, or not (the theme of this blog) - it doesn't matter whether Alonzo was in Belle Fourche or in the Little Snake River Valley at the time of the robbery because he wasn't in Fremont.
    My opinion, looking at the evidence is that Alonzo was still working for Reader & Co. at the time of the robbery, and that Wilson D. (Billy) Smith, the Montana State stock inspector for the Miles City area was just a plain old dope. If it hadn't been for Eph Davis, Smith would have let Harry escape the first time in 1887. He was sleeping and took no precautions at all to ensure that Harry couldn't escape, while Davis did all of the work.

  • Driftwood
    Feb. 4, 2010 9:23 p.m.

    Kid
    Do you know when Sawtelle went to SA?

  • Kid Charter
    Feb. 4, 2010 12:25 p.m.

    Upon the return of William Sawtelle from South America, he reportedly told his old friends, Bert Charter and Jack Ryan, that Etta and Sundance had returned to the United States via San Francisco, before his arrival in South America and that nothing had been heard from either one after their return. He reportedly also said, that Cassidy had returned to the United States sometime after 1910. One story I’ve heard is that Sawtelle was sent to South America, to not only look for Cassidy and Longabaugh, but check on the well being of Bert Charter’s sister-in-law Jano. The trip being financed by Charter, Ryan, and Simpson. There’s little doubt that the William C. Sawtell living in Parowan, Iron County, Utah in the 1910 census and the William C. Sawtelle who traveled to South America are but one and the same. If one of Sawtelle’s objectives was to check on the well being Bert Charter’s sister-in-law Jano, George and Jano Musgrave had not settled in Paraguay until the fall of 1913. Upon Sawtelle’s return from South America in 1914, Sawtelle’s first stop was Rawlins and Jack Ryan.

  • Driftwood
    Feb. 4, 2010 12:15 p.m.

    Back From The Grave, I am sorry but your post makes no sense to me. What point are you trying to make? Bill Long has nothing to do with the topic I was discussing which is....was Alonzo one of the Belle Fourche bank robbers or was he on the Little Snake River on the day of the robbery?

  • Back from the Grave
    Feb. 4, 2010 7:14 a.m.

    But of course Bill was not really Alonzo, but just plain old Bill. The Bill trying to farm and old piece of dirt in Wayne County, raising a passel of kids, most of whom where not his, and arguing with his wife's old in-laws.

  • Back from the Grave
    Feb. 3, 2010 1:15 p.m.

    Talk about speculation. Sounds more like a plot for a novel. Alonzo is not really Alonzo, who was not the Alonzo robbing banks, who was not the Alonzo getting arrested, who was not really the Alonzo in the Little Snake River Valley, who was not the Alonzo shooting up saloons, who was not the Alonzo in Deadwood or Pierre, but was really the Alonzo who was really Bill who was the Bill who was home in Fremont "tripping the light fantastic" with Luzernia.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 3, 2010 7:34 a.m.

    The most famous Elvis sighting of all time was Butch and Sundance in San Vicente Bolivia where they were killed.
    Do you also consider Dan Buck’s digging up the San Vicente robbers Gustave Zimmer and Enrique Huchin to be disrespectful?

  • sunkid
    Feb. 2, 2010 8:36 a.m.

    that is very disrespectfull if you ask me... digging up a body for some dna testing let him stay and be free from this..

  • Driftwood
    Jan. 29, 2010 2:49 p.m.

    Speculation for discussion: the Deadwood prisoner knew Alonzo and knew that Alonzo was on the Snake River on the day of the Belle Fourche robbery. The lawyer wrote to Gillespie asking him and some others to come up to Deadwood and identify the prisoner as Alonzo. Gillespie could not go; Lehey and Galloway did go and they also took with them statements from Gillespie and others that Alonzo was on the Snake River the day of the robbery. When they arrived, not only did they discover the prisoner was not Alonzo, but that they knew who the prisoner was. They were not going to commit perjury by lying and stating the prisoner was Alonzo. If they had identified the prisoner it would have caused problem for other people in and around Baggs. Perhaps this person had a family of position and respect in the community. It may also have caused problems for Lehey and Galloway. When Galloway and Lehey returned to Baggs, they told the newspaper they never saw the prisoner.

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 27, 2010 5:24 p.m.

    Little Snake River Valley, John Frederick Gooldy: Brother-in-Law of David Gillespie: “An employee of Robert Mclntosh received a letter from Harry from Walcott, Colorado, and one from him in New York City, with a picture of him and his wife, saying he had married a Texas lady he had known previously. A year from that time another letter came from South America, in which he asked how things were in the valley. The letter was not answered. Harry told before leaving Slater that he and Butch were going to South America.”

    After Gillespie received the New York photograph from Harry, Gillespie no doubt, shared the letter and photo with his brother-in-law, Gooldy. Years later, Gooldy says, “I knew Harry Longabaugh, he went by the name of Harry Alonzo when I knew him.” Neither man ever wavered in their identification and belief that Harry Alonzo and Harry Longabaugh where the same man. No doubt, before they died, both men had seen the Fort Worth five photograph and a Pinkerton copy of the New York photograph of Harry and Etta.

    David Gillespie died in 1958, John Gooldy died in 1962.

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 27, 2010 11:53 a.m.

    You can argue all you want as to whether Jones was Longabaugh, the fact remains that Harry Alonzo and his lawyers wrote a letter, requesting witnesses to come to Deadwood, South Dakota, who could testify as to the whereabouts of Harry Alonzo, on the date of the Belle Fourch bank robbery. David Gillespie wrote: “He and his lawyer both wrote here telling how the matter stood and wanted me and one or two others to go there to identify him and prove that he was on Snake River at the time of the bank holdup.” The People's Voice: “Alonzo wrote down to some friends who had previously known him to come up and identify him. J. Galloway and E. Lahey
    of Baggs,” Galloway and Lahey (Leahy), made the trip to South Dakota, who knows what transpired after they got there. Harry Alonzo was Harry Longabaugh.

  • The Sundance Kids
    Jan. 27, 2010 8:49 a.m.

    Correction, I meant "probably left in February 1901," not March 1901.

    Never write from memory

  • The Sundance Kids
    Jan. 27, 2010 8:13 a.m.

    Re Pierce v. Weinstein v. whomever, my copy of the note -- "Des of Longabaugh . . . ." -- does not give a location of the hospital. Is there another that does?

    The July 29, 1902, memo refers to visits to Pierce in Buffalo and Weinstein in NYC and 1901 and 1902 visits to New York, without going into more detail. Two days later, in a July 31 letter, William Pinkerton suggests to brother Robert that they learn more about the Buffalo visit, which may lead to medical information from other doctors.

    An April 1902 memo suggests Sundance "was in hospital last summer in Buffalo." The season is wrong -- he probably left the US in March 1901 -- and doesn't mean he couldn't returned there during his 1902 visit.

    Same memo, by the way, says Wyoming sheriff A.W. Storm described Sundance while in jail in Sundance as 6 feet, 170 pounds. By 1902, he had reportedly shrunk down to 5' 9" and chunked out to 185-190.

    All grist for the mill.

  • The Sundance Kids
    Jan. 27, 2010 8:11 a.m.

    Driftwood,

    I have no dog in the Longabaugh v. Jones matter, other than that a relatively small difference in reported height between the two is not conclusive.

    Police identifications are often mistaken and measurements haphazard, especially down at the county sheriff level. Compounded by the lengths suspects went to outwit their captors. Sundance and Harvey Logan squirmed their way out of mugshot photographs. Multiple aliases, sometimes borrowed from lawmen, other times from fellow bandits. It was not in the interest of outlaws to cooperate.


    Continued

  • Wyoming Native
    Jan. 27, 2010 8:08 a.m.

    Driftwood- Back then names did not mean much. If arrested and even convicted you were who you said you were. Ben Kilpatrick spent over ten years in Federal Prison under the name John Arnold, even though the authorities knew very well who he was!

  • Driftwood
    Jan. 26, 2010 8:18 p.m.

    Why didn’t Billy Smith recognize Frank Jones as longabaugh when Jones was taken into custody and escorted to Deadwood by Billy Smith?

  • Driftwood
    Jan. 26, 2010 7:25 p.m.

    The different measurements for Kilpatrick is a good point. Maybe the something applies to Frank Jones and he was Longabaugh. Gillespie, Galloway and Lehey stated the prisoner was not Longaabaugh (Alonzo). If they were correct then who was Frank Jones?

    I would guess Ayers estimated Alonzo’s height.

    The Pinkerton Files state the Pierce visits was in the summer of 1901 in Buffalo. The hand written note states longabaugh and wife were treated in May 1902 in NYC. This 1902 visit had to have been a visit to Dr Weinstein in NYC because the Pierce clinic was in Buffalo.

  • The Sundance Kids
    Jan. 26, 2010 1:11 p.m.


    Driftwood,

    "Inmate measurements are always accurate." Say what? Look at the Kilpatrick measurements above. No measurements are always accurate, especially when we have no idea how they were taken. Carpentry adage: measure twice, cut once.

    Second, per 3 April 1902 memo, Philadelphia agent J.T.C.: "It is believed [Sundance] was in hospital last summer in 1901 in Buffalo, New York."

    Per 29 July 1902 Pinkerton report, Sundance was treated -- no date given -- by Dr. Pierce, Buffalo, and Dr. Weinstein, NYC. Pierce ref cites his Medical Institute. Weinstein ref cites his office.

    Per an undated (but post May 1902) handwritten note in Pinkerton files, presumably written by an agent: "Des of Longbaugh and wife as given by Hospital Officials who treated both of them in May 1902." The officials described him as "5 ft 9, 185 or 190." Did they measure him or describe him? Did he self-report his height and weight? Were the officials talking informally, not even referring to a medical report? Was there even a medical report?

    Was this visit Pierce, Weinstein, or someone else? Not clear. Comments/additions?

  • Pinky
    Jan. 26, 2010 12:28 p.m.

    Although Charles Ayer may have been a sheriff in Decatur county, Kansas 1880/82, he had no legal authority in Wyoming/Colorado. Explain how or when he measured Harry Alonzo/Harry Longabaugh?

  • Wyoming Native
    Jan. 26, 2010 11:33 a.m.

    Driftwood- So----who do you suppose was the Frank Jones held in the Deadwood jail?

  • Driftwood
    Jan. 26, 2010 9:43 a.m.

    The Frank Jones that was held in the Deadwood Jail was measured at 5’10 Inmate measurements are always accurate. It has been assumed that Frank Jones was Harry Longabaugh. Harry Lonhagabaugh was 5’9”. It appears to me Frank Jones was not Harry longabaugh. Who was Frank Jones?

  • Driftwood
    Jan. 26, 2010 9:07 a.m.

    Sundance visited the Pierce clinic in Buffalo in the summer of 1901. He visited Dr Weinstein in New York City in May 1902. The Pinkerton files use the May 1902 hospital report, which states he was 5’9". The source for the wanted posters description is unknown and probably just a guess from some person that saw him with his boots on. The Charles Ayers description in the Pinkerton files gives his height as 5’10”. I doubt Ayers measured his height while he was barefooted, where as the hospital report was exact.

  • The Sundance Kids You Not
    Jan. 25, 2010 1:46 p.m.

    In her book, The Sundance Kid: The Life of Harry Alonzo Logabaugh (2009), Donna Ernst reproduces or quotes various documents that cite Sundance's height as between 5' 9" and 6 feet: Pinkerton wanted card, ca. 1900, 5' 10"; Wyoming court records, ca. 1887, 6 feet; Pinkerton wanted circular, ca. 1900, 5' 10"; and a report from Dr. Pierce's clinic, ca. 1902, 5' 9".

    What was his actual height? Hard to tell. Depends on whether he was measured with his boots on or off; in the morning or the evening; if the person doing the measuring was careful or not; if Sundance was cooperating or not; and so on.

    Ben Kilpatrick was measured in 1901 by the St. Louis police at 6.1. Five years later, the authorities at the federal pen in Atlanta measured him 5' 11 3/8 "and 1 m. 81.3 -- except that 1 m. 81.3 is only about 5' 9 1/2". Three measurements, two at the same time, and three results. Go figure.

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 25, 2010 11:43 a.m.

    Roscoe
    "no one knew his name." No one in the Little Snake River Valley, or Carbon county, knew his name was Harry Longabaugh.

  • Driftwood
    Jan. 25, 2010 11:31 a.m.

    When Sundance visited Dr. Weinstein in New York City in May of 1902 his height was given as 5’9”. This information can be found in the Pinkerton files. I have no idea how Ernst concluded he was 5’10’to 6'tall.

  • Wyoming Native
    Jan. 25, 2010 8:28 a.m.

    Roscoe- I have never seen Harry Longabaugh described as 5'9" in height before. You stated that James Ryan (sheriff of Crook Co., WY) measured him as being 5'9" in height when incarcerated for 18 months in the Sundance jail in July of 1887. Ernst usually describes Sundance as being from 5' 10 1/2" tall to 6'0" tall. Where is your information that James Ryan measured Harry's height? Estimating height can be done in several different ways that does not involve a tape measure!

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 24, 2010 6:30 p.m.

    (Correction Sheriff Ryan not Sheriff Davis)
    Sundance Gazette. Friday, June 24, 1887.
    "The Kid."
    "The Kid," Harry Longabaugh, whom Sheriff Ryan went after for the second time, seems to be a pretty slick one. The Miles City Stockgrowers’ Journal gives an account of his career after escaping and his recapture.

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 24, 2010 6:22 p.m.

    Sundance Gazette. Friday, June 24, 1887.
    "The Kid."
    "The Kid," Harry Longabaugh, whom Sheriff Davis went after for the second time, seems to be a pretty slick one. The Miles City Stockgrowers’ Journal gives an account of his career after escaping and his recapture.

    Sundance Gazette. Friday, February I5, 1889.
    Harry Longabaugh. who was released from county jail last week, has had his citizenship rights restored. Governor Moonlight having pardoned him a day before the expiration of his time.

    The Weekly Boomerang. THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 7, I889.
    James C. McCormick sentenced to the Joliet penitentiary in May, 1887, for three, years for forgery, and Harry Longabaugh, sentenced the Crook county jail for eighteen months for horsestealing, have both been pardoned by Governor Moonlight.

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 24, 2010 5:22 p.m.

    That night, Lonzo went back into the store with Dad where the two of them visited for "quite a while," as Dad told. While visiting Harry paid Dad back money he'd borrowed from him, laying a gold coin on the counter and saying, "Keep the change." Dad questioned Harry, "Harry, there's a rumor you've been riding with the Wild Bunch. It isn't so, is it?"
    Harry answered, "No, Dave, it isn't true."
    The next morning the stranger ate breakfast upstairs at the table with several other men who had stayed there overnight. Dad took breakfast to Harry in the livery stable, then saw both of them off. As they were getting on their horses Harry said, "Dave, do you know this man?" Dad used the name that had been used for the stranger the night before. Harry answered, "He's Butch Cassidy."

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 24, 2010 5:20 p.m.

    David D. Gillespie son of David Gillespie 1996: “Dad considered a young cowboy who drifted into the Little Snake River Valley a good friend of his. This friend, Harry Lonzo, worked for A. R. Reader on the Savery Creek. He had a likeable personality and was an excellent bronc rider. By the time Harry left the valley, rumors were that he had been riding with the "Wild Bunch." Dad was one of those who didn't believe the rumors. (sometime between 1897 and 1901) as my dad told the story, late one evening after dark he was in the store catching up on some work when he heard a tap at the window. Going to the door, he faced a stranger saying, "There's a man outside here who wants to see you." The stranger guided Dad to Harry Lonzo, Harry introduced the stranger to Dad, using a name that Dad did not recognize and could not later remember.
    (Continued)

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 24, 2010 12:38 p.m.

    Roscoe: “The People's Voice article was publised on October 30, 1897, not on October 10. The article was based on the statements of J. Galloway and E. Lahey, who said they went to "Pierre, S.D." but were not allowed to see Alonzo. The story is suspect. First, Alonzo was jailed in Deadwood, not Pierre, S. D.”
    As The Artful Codger correctly stated
    “typographical errors were extremely common in the era of telegraphed copy, handset type, etc. Typos persist to this day.”

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 24, 2010 12:06 p.m.

    J. Galloway and E. Lahey, ( Emmett Leahy), Harry Alonzo’s Belle Fourche alibi witnesses.
    Harry Alonzo worked and broke horses for Jesse Galloway, Jennie “Beeler” Leahy and William Crawford Beeler in Slater, Colorado during the winter of 1896 and spring of 1897. Emmett Elden Leahy was the son of Jennie “Beeler” Leahy.

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 24, 2010 10:19 a.m.

    John Frederick Gooldy: Brother-in-Law of David Gillespie: “I knew Harry Longabaugh, robber and pal of Butch Cassiday. He went by the name of Harry Alonzo when I knew him. He was a cowboy for A. R. Reader, He left the valley which was August 1897. He was next heard of in Jail, at Deadwood, South Dakota, being accused of a bank robbery at Belle Fourche, South Dakota. He broke jail and was back in the valley the same fall, stayed over night at Slater, Colorado, and the next morning early an employee of Robert Mclntosh took him by team and buggy to the A. R. Reader ranch to see a cowboy friend. When he came back people did not know his correct name, though they had begun to hear things. On his return, at Slater, a local man asked him if there was any truth about things that were being said about him, and he said they were not true. The man said, "Harry, I am surely glad to hear that." He stayed over night at Slater, and was seen in Dixon the next morning, and that was the last seen of him for three years.”

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 24, 2010 9:56 a.m.

    It doesn’t take a rocket scientist or brain surgery to figure out who Gillespie is talking about.

    The People's Voice October 30, 1897: Harry Alonzo, who formerly worked for Reader & Co's cattle outfit at Snake river, and who joined the Powder Springs gang of thieves some time last winter, was arrested about a month ago m South Dakota, on the charge of robbing the Belle Fourche bank. Alonzo wrote down to some friends who had previously known him to come up and identify him. J. Galloway and E. Lahey of Baggs,

    Laramie Republican October 24, 1897 CASSADY GETS AWAY:
    Henry Alonzo was recently arrested in Billings, Mont., for complicity in a bank robbery at Belle Fourche, S. D. Alonzo formerly worked for Reader & C0., on Snake river, but same months ago cast his fortune with Cassady.

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 24, 2010 9:51 a.m.

    Roscoe
    In a letter to his folks, dated October 12, 1897, David Gillespie wrote: " I came very near going to Deadwood, South Dakota for a few days and it is barely possible that I may go yet. A young fellow, a friend of mine who worked for Al Reader up till the middle of July left here near the first of August and went up there, and about the first of the month was arrested on the charge of having been in the bank robbery at that place on June 28. He was here at Slater on June 27 and up at Al's ranch on the 28th so couldn't possibly have taken part in the robbery.. When arrested he didn't think it would amount to much so didn't give his right name as he didn't want it to get into the papers. He and his lawyer both wrote here telling how the matter stood and wanted me and one or two others to go there to identify him and prove that he was on Snake River at the time of the bank holdup.”
    (Continued)

  • Roscoe
    Jan. 23, 2010 4:17 p.m.

    Anonymous:

    No, what I am saying is that the person jailed in Deadwood in 1897 was not the same person as the person who was jailed in Sundance in 1887. There is a material difference.

    The second material fact is that the "Harry Alonzo" in Little Snake in January 1897, was not the same person as the person locked in the Deadwood jail until October 31, 1897. This is not to say that "Harry Alonzo" was complicit in the Belle Fourche robbery --he was not.

    To unravel what seems to be a conundrum, my suggestion is that you look carefully at eastern Wyoming, 1885-1887, and the role it played in BC and SK going to SA.


    Hints: Elzy Lay's alias was William H. McGinnis, the name of the judge that sentenced SK in 1887. BCs alias was James Ryan, the sheriff who tracked SK in 1887. ALONZO Craven was the name of the cowboy SK allegedly stole a horse, saddle, tack, and revolver from in 1887.

    It isn't rocket science or brain surgery. Just follow the lead --without prejudice.

    Good luck!

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 22, 2010 9:37 a.m.

    Roscoe
    Are you saying that the man known in the Little Snake River Valley in 1897, as Harry Alonzo, wasn’t Harry Longabaugh?

  • Roscoe
    Jan. 15, 2010 2:43 p.m.

    3.) The People's Voice article was publised on October 30, 1897, not on October 10. The article was based on the statements of J. Galloway and E. Lahey, who said they went to "Pierre, S.D." but were not allowed to see Alonzo. The story is suspect. First, Alonzo was jailed in Deadwood, not Pierre, S. D. Second, it is not credible that Galloway and Lahey would be denied access to Alonzo/Jones because he was not held incommunicado. If Sherrif Plunkett were uncooperative, all Galloway and Lahey had to do was contact Alonzo/Jones attorneys, who would have produced the pair in court as exhonerating witnesses. Failing that, the attorneys would at least have taken the statements of Galloway and Lahey by affadavit. Lastly, Gillespie, in his Letter of October 12, 1897 wrote that "two left here last night", or, the evening of the 11th. The People's Voice article, appearing on October 30, even allowing for copy of the Rawlins Journal on which it was based, means that Galloway and Lahey had nearly 3 weeks in Deadwood, more than ample time to see Alonzo/Jones --or arrange a jailbreak.

  • Roscoe
    Jan. 15, 2010 2:23 p.m.

    Back From The Grave:

    1.) After Harry was arrested, pled out, and was sentenced to 18 months in the Sundance Jail in 1887, Crook County Sheriff James Ryan measured Harry as being 5' 9" Tall. When Frank Jones was arrested in Montana and transported to the Larence County Jail in 1897, Sheriff Matt Plunkett measured Frank as being 5' 10 1/2" Tall. Unless either or both Sherrif Plunkett or Sherrif Ryan was incompetent and couldn't work a tape measure, Harry in Sundance was a different person than Frank in Deadwood.
    2.) Montana Stock Detective W. D. Billy Smith arrested Harry in 1887 and transported Frank Jones to Deadwood in 1897. In court appearances in Montana, Deadwood, and Belle Fourche, Smith never informed the court that Jones was, in reality, Longabaugh. The reason for Smith failing to identify Jones as Longabaugh to three courts was that they were not the same person.
    (Continued)

  • Back from the Grave
    Jan. 14, 2010 3:07 p.m.

    As I understand it the 1916 Etta Longabaugh letter has yet to be produced.

  • Back from the Grave
    Jan. 14, 2010 3:04 p.m.

    French identified the Pinkerton agent who came to see him as “Byrne or Burns”, not Murray. Siringo later identified the agent as Murray. French also stated that the agent came investigating the passing of bills from the Wilcox robbery or as the agent stated the “Green Mountain” robbery, not to apprehend Cassidy. On showing French a picture that he had on him of a group of men, French identified one of them as the man he knew as Jim Lowe. French never refuted this, but stated that a few years later, after Cassidy and Longabaugh were in So. America that on seeing a picture of Cassidy printed in the paper said: “Jim’s portrait was labeled under the name of Butch Cassidy, a name by which he seems to have been known on both continents.”

  • Back from the Grave
    Jan. 14, 2010 1:11 p.m.

    Roscoe:David Gillespie in his 12 Oct. 1897 letter to his mother never wrote the name “Alonzo” but referred to him as: “A young fellow, a friend of mine who worked for Al Reader up until the middle of July. . . “ That he was referring to “Harry Alonzo” is not only implicit in his statement, but also borders on explicit when the People’s Voice Article of 10 Oct 1897 is taken into consideration. In that article it clearly names “Harry Alonzo” as the person who “formerly worked for Reader & Co’s cattle outfit” and was arrested for the Belle Fourche robbery. Details from the article, which was originally published in the Rawlins Journal shows evidence that the writer was intimately familiar with the matter and possibly Gillespie’s letter.

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 13, 2010 10:37 a.m.

    Roscoe
    Dan’s to busy on the old blog to be bothered by you right now.

  • Roscoe
    Jan. 12, 2010 2:04 p.m.

    3.) There is no evidence that Butch himself ever used the alias Jim Lowe. Murray, reputed to "never forget a face" while a corrections officer, assistnt warden, police chief, and superintendant of Pinkerton's Chicago Office had BCs 1894-96 prison mug shot and description. Not likely he would confuse Jim Lowe with BC. French said Murray showed him a photo of a group of men, some standing and some sitting, not the mug shot for identification. Murray, not French, said Lowe was Butch. Why would Murray, seriously asmatic, go to WS without back up to arrest Butch and then plead lack of back up as the reason for not arresting him?

    4.) You're quite correct, the 1910 lead is false. Jimlyn knows that. He's on the right track, not a false trail.

  • Roscoe
    Jan. 12, 2010 6:49 a.m.

    Back From The Grave:
    1.) David Gillespie, author of the October 12, 1897 letter to his mother never wrote the name "Alonzo" or "Longabaugh" but only referred to his "young friend" a curiosity since Harry was nearly considerably older than Gillespie at that time. Decades after the event Gooldy, Gillespie's brother-in-law, linked Gillespie and Longabaugh, but also said when Longabaugh returned to Little Snake "no one knew his name." Gooldy, not Gillespie, is the source for the information that Gillespie received the Bliss/DeYoung photo. Gillespie's son, also named David, wrote after his father died, that Gillespie and Longabaugh were linked, confirming Gooldy, who was still alive at the time. Nothing in the Pinkerton documents indicates Gillespie was the informant for Ethel/Longabaugh/Place/ Bliss/DeYoung information.

    2.)Gooldy is the source for "information" that in a letter accompanying the Bliss/DeYoung photo "Longabaugh" said Ethel was his wife and that he "met her in TX". That Longabaugh in fact married her in TX or that he married her using the name Harry Place is unwarranted speculation, assumes facts not in evidence, and relies on third hand hearsay.
    (Continued)

  • Back from the Grave
    Jan. 11, 2010 8:45 p.m.

    Marianne: I respect you not wanting to share, especially with how things have gotten twisted. It's just like the story of the family's trip to Mexico/Cortez CO for Silas' health, I've seen the original version, and every time I hear of it again there are new details, which are then repeated and added on in the next version.

  • Back from the Grave
    Jan. 11, 2010 8:36 p.m.

    5) Yes Jim Lowe was a real person, but, as you know it was also an alias the Butch used on occasion in New Mexico, or at least that is what Capt. French always thought.

    By the way, I wouldn't put too much stock in the post 1910 New York Ethel Place sightings, they are all dead ends. Ethel continued to use her given name after she came back, but dropped the Place surname.

  • Back from the Grave
    Jan. 11, 2010 8:29 p.m.

    Roscoe - thanks for the corrections.
    1) David Gillespie in addition to others identified Longabaugh as the Harry Alonzo that they knew in the Little Snake River Valley. This was to both Pinkerton operatives and in later writings. It was from Gillespie that the Pinkerton agency received one of the DeYoung/Bliss photos.
    2)Actually Longabaugh used the alias Harry Place before Buffalo and New York when he married Ethel ______ in Texas. Ethel used this, Ethel Place,her actual married name until she returned to the US
    3&4) Yes I wrote too hastily and confused Frank Jones with Frank Boyd. Who knows how many people used the Frank Jones alias. There are probably a few alias Frank Joneses running around today. Frank Boyd, on the other hand was a specific alias Longabaugh used in SA, especially in Bolivia and Chile. Frank Boyd may serve as a clue for you as to when and where Longabaugh brought Ethel back to the states.
    cont'd

  • Butch
    Jan. 11, 2010 1:18 p.m.

    Jim:

    I admire the thoughtful, considerate, respectful way in which you are conducting your research and inquiries. Wonderful job! Every wish for your continued success, and rest assured you have many fans eagerly awaiting published results when you get to that point.

  • jimlyn
    Jan. 11, 2010 11:22 a.m.

    Number one:Am I satisfied with the info I have? Yes,the documention agrees with what the family has said.Number two:I don't know what early life given name that she used, I only know what married name she lived her later life with.
    Efforts are ongoing researching her children,however I would not feel comfortable approaching them without introconvertable proof.I don't know if they know of their mother's past.She called herself Etta Longabaugh in a letter in 1916.
    Thanks for the inquiry Butch.

  • Butch
    Jan. 11, 2010 6:28 a.m.

    Jim:

    You raise a very valid question. I'd like to know if you are satisfied in your own mind that you've discovered the true identity of Etta Place? Also, are you able to tell us if Mrs. H. A. Place, Ethel Place, and Etta Place are the same person? If so, is she the figure in the Bliss/DeYoung photo? The Cholila photos? If it was Harry Longabaugh on the Little Snake in the 1908 Pinkerton document, where did he go from there? Is there any significance to the fact that after Ethel's return to the US, she begins to be called "Etta"? Just curious.

  • jimlyn
    Jan. 10, 2010 6:48 p.m.

    Has everyone forgotton Etta Place? Surely if Sundance got out of SA, he would have contacted her.

  • Roscoe
    Jan. 10, 2010 6:25 p.m.

    (Continued)
    4.) Harry most certainly did not use the name "Frank Jones" post Argentina. If it was truly Harry, he used the name "Frank Boyd", as the Pinkerton Documents clearly state.

    5.) Jim Lowe was a real person, 5' 6" tall, not 5 ' 9" tall as was Butch. You know this perfectly well from the Pinkerton Documents. He gave his profession as "waiter" when arrested and sentenced for bank robbery, and served a sentence in Stillwater Prison, at exactly the same time that
    "Gold Teeth" Duffy was at Stillwater and who listed himself as a "sailor". Duffy subsequently used a written reference from the Stillwater area when arriving in Argentina.

    Really, Mr. Buck, we all expect better of you. Why not come out in the open and debate real issues straight up like a man? There is precious little point in hiding behind an alias.

    We've done this before. Lets get it on again, for the entertainment of the audience. Comprende?

  • Roscoe
    Jan. 9, 2010 4:17 p.m.

    Back From The Grave:
    1.) The first connection between Harry Alonzo as the alias of Harry Longabaugh was in Frank Murray's December 3, 1900 letter to Frank Hadsell --scant proof that Harry was known as Alonzo in Little Snake in 1897.
    2.)Harry Place does not appear for the first time in Texas, 1900, as you blogged, but on the Hotel Register of the Invalids Hotel in Buffalo, January, 1901 (If you believe the Dimaio notebook entry referencing the April 3, 1902 mail cover).
    3.) Frank Jones first appears as the name that was was assigned to the man in custody in Deadwood, captured in Montana, September,1897. The second use was in the 1901 letter to Frank Murray from a Montana celebration committee member stating that Longabaugh was reputed to be one of the "Jones Boys". The last use of Frank Jones linked to Longabaugh was the January 26, 1906 Pinkerton Memo relating to a mail cover on Samanna, but "Frank Jones" was listed merely as an alias attributed to Longabaugh by the Pinkertons as a result of their belief Longabaugh was "Frank Jones" in Deadwood, not because Harry used the name. (Continued)

  • An Outsider
    Jan. 7, 2010 7:59 a.m.

    If a professiomal criminal wishes to protect those he loves from the rath of other human degration and scorn.........Even in today's wiz bang computer facts tecnology.....anyone, yes anyone can have many Birth Certificates, be a part of many Census reports, make up many alis' and thereby filmly confuse anyone wishing to pursue him or her.

    Look to history for these very real examples of people going straight after a life of crime.

    Nothing on planet Earth will straighten a stray like the love of their children and wife (Luzernia). Just a sudo-factual observation.

    I believe Sundance is looking down delighted to know he still can generate attention, affection and dedication. I think he revels in his decendants both step and biological. Henry Longabaugh, Bill Long and the Sundance Kid are one in the same.

    Are we or you, so convinced in our our beliefs that we cannot see that every family, has a black sheep?

  • marianne
    Jan. 6, 2010 3:59 p.m.

    I haven't shared nor do I intend to share my sources. Every thing I have all my life known as true gets twisted and totally turned around.

  • Back from the Grave
    Jan. 6, 2010 2:30 p.m.

    Marianne: I would be interested in your sources for Bill Long working for I.G. Robison during 1900-1908. I'm sure you have shared them with Jerry and group, but others of us have yet to see them.

    Of course you know that other sources place Bill Long in Utah during the 1900 - 1908 time frame also.

  • Back from the Grave
    Jan. 6, 2010 2:26 p.m.

    Other people being mistaken for either Butch or Sundance was more common. A notable example was in 1904 when a gambler by the name of Ed Holton was in Salt Lake City dealing faro and several detectives were convinced that they had spotted Cassidy some even sought out arrest warrants and contacted the Governor to see if rewards that were posted were still valid.
    This kind of mistake was repeated over and over for the next forty years as different people claimed to have spotted Butch. This incident may have been an early sighting of William T. Phillips who would later become famous for his Cassidy impersonation. One story has it that he even fooled Lula Parker into thinking he was Cassidy..

  • Back from the Grave
    Jan. 6, 2010 2:17 p.m.

    As to Ben Kilpatrick using Harry Longabaugh's name, it seems to be sheer accident. When captured in St. Louis after the Wagner robbery Ben refused to give his name, but when Laura Bullion was questioned they found among her personal effects Longabaugh's description in a notebook and she later claimed that she had found the name Harry Longabaugh on the fly of a pocket notebook she found in Ben's coat pocket. When she asked him about it, he just shrugged it off. Apparently she might have thought he used the name Harry Longabaugh but he wouldn't tell her.

    Butch is a different story. One name he used was Jim Lowe, which apparently others had used and this created some confusion in and around Alma, New Mexico when Charlie Siringo was there in 1901. Some people swore that a Jim Lowe was in the area organizing some sort of gang, while Butch, Harry, and Etta were already in Argentina.

  • Back from the Grave
    Jan. 6, 2010 2:07 p.m.

    Snowflake: Interesting ideas on the alias' But unlikely in the case of Longabaugh.
    Harry Alonzo as he was known in the Little Snake River Valley has only been identified as Longabaugh.
    Harry Place, Longabaugh used in Texas in 1900 and on through to Argentina. He probably intended to keep this as a permanent alias Enrique being the Spanish equivalent to Harry or Henry.
    Frank Jones Longabaugh started using after his flight from Argentina. There is no record of others using these alias'.

  • marianne
    Jan. 6, 2010 11:22 a.m.

    Ross has both email and phone. So does Marilyn Grace.

  • Michelle Nickle Smedema
    Jan. 6, 2010 8:39 a.m.

    Marianne I have tried to find your phone number but have no way to contact you. Is there anyone who was previously involved in the project who would have it? I know we cannot post personal information here.

  • Snowflake
    Jan. 5, 2010 12:38 p.m.

    A Flakey Idea:

    Is it possible that there are multiple indivuals using the names Harry Longabaugh, Harry Alonzo, Harry Place, Enrique Place, and Frank Jones?

    It appears that someone using one of the alias' listed above was in South America between March, 1901 and November, 1908, but made frequent trips back to the US. It also appears that Bill Long was in Fremont in the late fall of 1901, fighting with Morrell over water rights. Within a month of the fight a Pinkerton report says "Longabaugh" was in Utah. When Ben Kilpatrick was arrested for the Wagner Train Robbery the name "Harry Longabaugh" was written in his pocket diary together with a physical description.

    Isn't it reasonable to believe some sort of connection exists between the SA Longabaugh and the Utah/Montana Longabaugh? It needn't be Bill Long, of course, for the connection to be quite real. Utah is a big state so Bill might very well not be the Utah Longabaugh of the Pinkerton report. Then again ....

    Probably just another flakey idea.

  • mariannedefa
    Jan. 5, 2010 11:17 a.m.

    Michelle, It would be nice to meet you, you probably know where I live if not ask me. You know there is proof Bill long was never in South America at the time Mr. Nickle is refering, Grandpa was in Emery County building fence for a son in law Clara's husband I.G Robison. It's another thing Mr. Nickel choose's to ignore. Dosen't anyone find it interesting that all this information has come up when the people involved have passed on? I belive he was born in Wyoming in Grey bull basin, wild territory Mr. Nickle in those days babies weren't born with birth certificats, Like Native American babies there born any where, no hospitals no adress's but still people and babies.

  • Michelle Nickle Smedema
    Jan. 5, 2010 7:55 a.m.

    One thing I am surprised no one picked up on in the article is Dan Buck's admittance that he relied heavily on the so-called rumor-riffed Pinkerton files to make his case......he ended up digging up two entirely different guys in Bolivia. Now as to Bill Long being Harry from PA - can you prove that he was not? "Harry" was the only one of the Longabaugh children whose baptismal date was not entered into the family bible and by the time he headed west he was well past the age to be baptised and thus recorded. Nice to hear from you Marianne - I am meeting a lot of my cousins on this project and will look you up next time I am up in Utah in May.

  • Back from the Grave
    Jan. 4, 2010 4:14 p.m.

    Hooray for Marianne Defa! Don't let your bullying cousins push you around. There is no reason that Evinda's information should be discounted any more than anyone else, except that it disagrees with his theory. I see Jerry is perfectly willing to cherry pick what he wants to believe, and attack anyone else's information. I believe that both Luzernia and Evinda both believed that William Henry Long was born in 1860 by what Long himself told them. This coincides with the 1880 census where he is listed as age 21. There was no reason for him, in 1880 to be lying about his age or birthplace.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Jan. 2, 2010 11:12 p.m.

    We can thank Evinda for knowing the exact day Feb 2, Bill long was born, which is stated on the death certificate. Eveinda knew the exact day probably because they celebrated it each year on that day. Al that has been know about Harry Longabaugh birth is the year he was born, 1867, but not the day. The first record for Harry Longabaugh was when he was enumerated on the 1870 census as a three year old. The exact day or town where he was born is not known. The 1870 census does not have him listed on the same line with the longabaughs but with the Wilcox family instead. It appears the census taker made a mark that he should have been on the line with the Longabaughs. Is there any significance to this? I don’t know. Why are the rest of the Longabaugh sibling’s birthdays known but not his?

  • Jerry Nickle
    Jan. 2, 2010 7:25 p.m.

    Correction
    Evinda was my mother's aunt not first cousin. They were very near the same age and grew up like sisters.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Jan. 2, 2010 7:20 p.m.


    Evinda also sated his mother’s name was Anne which is true because he was the daughter of Anne Place Longabaugh. I will be glad to email you the marriage license, the death certificate and the census records if you would like them.

    Evinda was also off by three or four when she gave the information for Luzernia’s birth on the death certificate. I will be glad to send you this information too if you would like.

    If you can tell us where Bill Long was born and the name of his parents, and it is not the Longabaughs, you are the only person in the word that can.

    I would love to communicate with you and show you information that has not been made public yet. Please contact me.
    Jerry

  • Jerry Nickle
    Jan. 2, 2010 7:18 p.m.

    Dear Marianne
    On the fifteenth of Nov 1894 a marriage license was issued for the marriage of William Henry Long and Luzernia Morrell. William Long himself gave his age as twenty-seven thus being born in 1867. The 1910, 1920 and the 1930 census records also show he was born in 1867. Bill long’s death was the Nov 27, 1936. The informant for the death certificate was Evinda Merkley, Bill Long’s daughter and your grandmother. The year she gave for Bill Long’s birth was 1860, which was used on the headstone. Evinda’s information on that death certificate is some of the best information there is and I am proud that she was my mother’s first cousin. Evinda also stated he was born in the Big Hole Basin of Wyoming. This is very informative but he was not born there because the Big Horn Basin was not settled until after 1879. Both Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid lived and worked in the Big Horn Basin.

  • marianne Defa
    Jan. 2, 2010 5:30 p.m.

    I am a blood relative to Bill Long. His daughter Evinda did know the correct dates she certainly did know her mother birth and death days. Mr nickle has read to many comic books!! Grow up!!!

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 2, 2010 9:12 a.m.

    How a person can believed that a William Henry Long born in 1867 can be the same person as a William Henry Long born in 1859 is beyond me.

  • The Sundance Kids
    Jan. 2, 2010 4:30 a.m.

    The notion the belief that William Henry Long is the Sundance Kid is akin to belief in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ is somewhere between ludicrous and blasphemous.

    Perhaps the appropriate analogy would be that it's akin to belief in the tooth fairy.

  • Back from the Grave
    Jan. 1, 2010 10:10 a.m.

    Now about these censuses, I looked at them and noticed that in 1900 he gave his birth place as Montana. If my map is correct, the Big Horn Basin in Wyoming borders on Montana. Obituary says he was raised in Wyoming, Hmmm, let me think here. . . the William Long at Camp Carlin in 1880 was living with his brother-in-law Henry Parker who was a wagon master working out of Camp Carlin . . . I think I read somewhere that Camp Carlin supplied all of the Forts to the North and West of Cheyenne, which I would assume would cover Wyoming and Montana . . . Hmmm. Bingo! It looks like we have a match!!!

    Now on the other censuses he is listed as being born in Idaho, interesting, do you think that maybe he told his wife to say that to the census takers?? and how about the England, France, US,, Missouri, and Kentucky that were used for his parents birthplaces?? It looks like he was possibly hiding from something, but what? Or maybe his family just didn't know???

  • Back from the Grave
    Jan. 1, 2010 9:56 a.m.

    Guess Who errs in the assumption that William Henry Long himself gave the information himself on the census records. The truth is that usually the wife in the household was the one who talked with the census taker, and not the husband. It is also possible that children of the couple could have been the one the census taker talked to. There is no way of determining, for sure, who provided the information.

    As far as the 1900, 1910, 1920, and 1930 censuses all agreeing with each other. I looked at them and they do not. In 1900 he is listed as age 36, whereas in the 1910, 1920, and 1930 he is listed as 43, 53, and 63 respectively, which I guess matches his marriage license. I would assume, since he was not living with the family in 1900 the he or one of the other "log choppers" he was with gave the information, while in the other censuses it was probably his wife.

  • Back from the Grave
    Jan. 1, 2010 9:38 a.m.

    I have to disagree with Michelle, the 1880 census is very relevant, as is also the 1900 census. Mona's comments about the census records are correct. if there is a likely William Long in the 1880 census (Camp Carlin, WY) who fits the general profile of William Henry Long, he MUST be eliminated before any of the Long family's claims can be considered seriously.

  • Back from the Grave
    Jan. 1, 2010 9:26 a.m.

    So I looked up the William H. Long at Ft. San Jacinto, Texas. This man doesn't seem to be the same William Long from the 1880 Census at Camp Carlin. He also doesn't fit the information in the Parker-Long Rootsweb family tree. This William Long is from Shamokin, Northumberland Co. PA and appears to be the son of Joseph and Louisiana Long (see 1880 census of Shamokin. The William Long at Camp Carlin was the son of Alexander LOng and Mary Jane Stafford of Fayette Co., PA.
    So Where to from here? Could William Henry Long of Utah be the same man as the William Long of Camp Carlin, Laramie Co., WY?

  • Sonja Nickle Smith
    Dec. 31, 2009 9:12 p.m.

    "daveday" said "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." This claim isn't extraordinary if you've lived with the informatin all your life. It's only extraordinary if you've lived with and believed the traditional story of who Long/Sundance was. People don't seem to like having "the way it's always been" changed. The claim that Jesus was born of a virgin is pretty extraordinary, with no extraordinary (or even ordinary) evidence to back it up. Yet millions will swear that it is true. Jerry's research has been both thorough and responsible. I grew up next door to Jerry, we're first cousins. I'm sure he wouldn't waste his time researching and writing a book for the "sucker that's born every minute" that "un huh sure" seems to be refering to. I think you may be surprised, perhaps even impressed, when his evidence is presented - whether you chose to call it ordinary or extraordinary or something else.

  • Guess Who
    Dec. 30, 2009 7:51 p.m.

    Back from the grave
    The William Henry long in this story was born in 1867 (the year Harry Longabaugh was born) not in 1859 as the William Henry Long in the 1880 Laramie census was. You can verify this using the 1894 marriage license, 1900 census record, 1910 census record, 1920 census record, and the 1930 census record. William Henry long himself gave the information for all of these records and is the primary source. The headstone date comes from the death certificate. This information was given by his daughter Evinda. She obviously did not know his correct age when he died. Evinda also did not know the correct age of her mother Luzernia either. Luzernia’s headstone date was incorrect by four years.

  • Michelle Nickle Smedema
    Dec. 30, 2009 6:22 p.m.

    Let's do a little math "The Sundance Kids," in 1880 Harry Longabaugh/Bill Long was too young to be an outlaw or a farmer in Utah. That census record is irrelevant to the matter at hand. Now from Anonymous we have another William H Long from Galveston. Without knowing our family history, dates, etc., it is impossible for most people to follow our timeline. I am sure that the hundreds of thousands of William H. Longs in the USA and abroad that we are not related to but that are referred to appreciate your interest.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 30, 2009 4:29 p.m.

    1900 United States Federal Census Record for William H Long

    William H Long Fort San Jacinto, Galveston, Texas Pennsylvania White Sergeant

  • Back from the Grave
    Dec. 30, 2009 1:21 p.m.

    Thanks for the link to the RootsWeb Family Tree. I don't see much on William Long however. Only that he died after 1900 possibly in Texas, but I don't see him in the 1900 or 1910 census. Is there a census record for him in 1900 or 1910 so that he can be eliminated from William Henry Long possibilities?

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 30, 2009 10:28 a.m.

    RootsWeb's Family Trees parker-long

  • Back from the Grave
    Dec. 30, 2009 9:03 a.m.

    Please explain how the William Long in the 1880 census of Laramie County, Wyoming is not William Henry Long. Both are about the same age: William Long age 21 born in Pennsylvania in 1880 census and William Henry Long born 1860 as listed on headstone. Also, I think I read somewhere that William Henry Long claimed he was from either Wyoming or Pennsylvania.

  • The Sundance Kids
    Dec. 30, 2009 5:59 a.m.

    Per the 1880 census, Harry Longabaugh, age 13, was boarding with neighbors in Pennsylvania, near his parents' home. The Sundance Kid (2009), Donna Ernst, p. 9.

    Harry Longabaugh was the Sundance Kid; William Henry Long was a Utah farmer.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 29, 2009 10:03 p.m.

    The William Henry that shows up in the 1880 census in Camp Carlin is not the William Henry Long in question.

  • Back from the Grave
    Dec. 28, 2009 8:38 p.m.

    Mona,
    William Long shows up on the 1880 census in Camp Carlin, Laramie County, Wyoming, near Cheyenne living with his sister and brother-in-law.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 28, 2009 2:43 p.m.

    Well I ran across a man a few years back in Richfeild we swaped Butch and Sundance stories and showed each other old photo's. I showed him a photo that I have of a family member (My Grandmother was a Parker but not Circleville), he told me it looked like Butch's twin so we talked for a long time about the history of these two men that were surely enigma's. He told me his theory and I sure liked it. They hav never foundthe bodie's of these two men that people have looked for, well for a centery well here it goes, they are still alive that would put them both over 140 years in age so yea there we go, they are still out there robbing the rich and giving to the poor.

    Oh and by the way they didnt die in South America, if the Pinkertons or other law enforcment up here couldnt get them no one could.....

  • daveday
    Dec. 28, 2009 2:35 p.m.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I don't see it yet, and I probably won't or it would have already surfaced.

  • Cats
    Dec. 28, 2009 12:18 p.m.

    I'd also like to add another story. A woman who knew the Parker family very well as a child tells a story. She was really good friends with Butch's dad. She was often at the Parker home. One day she was at their home and an older man was there. Mr. Parker introduced this man to her as "my son Bob." She said she knew ALL the members of the Parker family really well and she had NEVER seen this man before. Of course,
    "Bob" was Butch's real name.

  • Cats
    Dec. 28, 2009 12:14 p.m.

    Dear Bender: Where does that come from? I do NOT believe in UFOs or Bigfoot and have NEVER said so. (I also know the proper use of an apostrophe.) However, I do believe in the three Nephites. Just where you got that absurd information is unknown. Of course, being a sincere seeker of truth, I'm always willing to listen to any credible evidence. I don't make silly, ignorant jabs at others without any basis.

    I do believe Lula Parker's story about her brother. She was known to be an honest woman. She wrote her book because she didn't want Butch to become a folk hero. She wanted young people to know that he lived an unhappy life as a hunted and haunted man.

    She also continued to hide the location of Butch's grave. I think it is entirely possible that the story of the dog's grave was used to keep that secret.

    Of course, we'll never know unless Butch's grave is actually identified. But, I believe Lula. Dan Buck is not nearly so credible. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if "Bender" is Buck.

  • Mona
    Dec. 28, 2009 12:07 p.m.

    PS: I found Luzernia (Susan) Long in Wayne County Utah on the 1900 Census. She was living near her first husband's family. But her husband, William Henry Long, is not enumerated with her. I haven't done an exhaustive search yet for him. Could it be he is missing because he was on the run from the law? Mmmm, this story is intriguing.

  • Amazing Grace
    Dec. 28, 2009 11:57 a.m.

    I LOVED THE STORY! Great job Geoff!

  • Mona
    Dec. 28, 2009 11:54 a.m.

    The article was short on details but I'm assuming the family has combed the early census records to establish a trail for one/both men. I see Harry Longabaugh on the 1880 Census working as a hired hand in Chester Co., PA. If William Henry Long can be located concurrently then we would know they are two different people. If not, chances are greater (though not for sure) that Harry & William are the same person. So if exhaustive searches are made of the US Census every 10 years beginning in 1870, and Harry and William are never found separately, that would add to the evidence in favor of them being the same man.

  • Bender
    Dec. 28, 2009 11:07 a.m.

    Cats is certainly not a credible source. She admittedly believes in Bigfoot, UFO's and the 3 Nephites.

  • The Sundance Kids
    Dec. 28, 2009 10:56 a.m.

    Cats,
    In her book Butch Cassidy My Brother, Betenson said that Butch "died in the Northwest in the fall of 1937," per a letter received by the family. Betenson, of course had no way of knowing if the information was correct or not.

    She also tells a variation on the Circleville property story: instructions to workmen to not disturb the corner of the property where her son Mark's dog Hummerdo was buried led to "the rumor that Butch Cassidy was buried at the ranch."

  • Lula Parker
    Dec. 28, 2009 10:48 a.m.

    My father talked to Lula Parker when we lived in Circleville and she said that her brother had come home and lived quietly and a regular life. My dad is a skeptic and he believed her. She was completely credible. I have no doubt at all that she was telling the truth.

    The problem that people have is that the movie and Hollywood are so ingranined in us that we believe the place where lies and illusions are created every day. Just because it is on the big screen doesn't make it true, but I find myself getting sucked in at times and believing the revisionist history that sometimes comes out of there. The red flag is the motive--solely entertainment and the acquisition of wealth.

    In my opinion, Lula Parker gained nothing by sticking to her story, except credibility and integrity. She never benefitted by it and lived very humbly, if I'm remembering it correctly. By her telling her story and not receiving benefit, her credibility, and therefore her story, greatly increases as far as I'm concerned.

  • GREAT ADVENTURE
    Dec. 28, 2009 10:00 a.m.

    I have followed this story and I think Mr. Nickle is really on to something big. If he can put it all in a book and make a great profit for his work, hooray for Capitalism! That is what America is all about... at least for the moment.

    Ezra Taft Benson quoted this often: "I hate the guys who criticize and minimize the other guys whose enterprise has made the rise above the guys who criticize and minimize the other guys."

    More power to you, Mr. Nickle! Make us proud!!

  • Cats
    Dec. 28, 2009 9:34 a.m.

    I had a conversation with Dan Buck in the early nineties. He's so married to his theory that Butch and Sundance died in South America, he won't even believe Butch's sister who said that Butch came back and died in the States. The family kept his grave secret. They didn't want it to turn into a shrine.

    A professor from Dixie State told me an interesting story. He's from Circleville and knew the Parker family growing up. When I told him about the conversation with Buck, he just laughed. He said he knows FOR A FACT that Butch is buried on the Parker ranch in Circleville. He said the town always wondered where Butch was buried. Then the State did a construction project which ran across Parker land. When they got to a certain point, the members of the Parker family ran down and stood on that spot. They refused to budge and would not allow digging to take place. THAT'S WHEN THE TOWN KNEW WHERE BUTCH WAS BURIED.

    I think Lula Parker knew whether she had seen her brother or not. This story is very credible.

  • Sarah Nichole
    Dec. 28, 2009 9:15 a.m.

    Growing up in Utah, you certainly hear a LOT of these stories about Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid surviving the shootout and coming home. There's enough circumstantial evidence to believe it may be possible, though I'm waiting for proof before deciding for certain. Either way, it's a fascinating story.

  • skeptics
    Dec. 28, 2009 7:58 a.m.

    I'm another Morrell kid, we all grew up on stories about "uncle" Bill Long. Why is it so hard for you folks to believe that he did come home after his time in South America, marry a nice widow and spend his remaining years giving the local authorities grief? Talk to Butch Cassidy's family, his sister swore that he came home too.

  • The Contamination
    Dec. 28, 2009 7:42 a.m.

    is in the conflicting accounts. Let history play itself out here. If there are/were any hairs from the deceased around from the exhumed body, they will/would tell more. A person's hair does not decay nor disintegrate over time. DNA testing may prove or disprove its claims. However, it is a good story, nevertheless. Persistence just may pay off. Let it unfold and see if there is some credence to what Jerry Nickle states, he may be onto something being his close tie to Long/Longbaugh. Give him the benefit of his effort and see the outcome either way. This is real life, not Hollywood. A lot of times, genealogists are just as persistent to find out who belongs to whom and allow the truth to surface, once and for all. Look at the Mountain Meadows Massacre episode. It was not what it appeared. One woman, (A.B.) persisted to find out what happened back then to her ancestors, and she found a lot of information that resolved a lot of the controversy and gave those left behind some resolution, and a published book. Don't prejudge this, let the mystery it unfold. Be supportive.

  • The Sundance Kids
    Dec. 28, 2009 7:18 a.m.

    DN story: "One of the [Pinkerton] reports, a copy of which Nickle provided to the Deseret News, indicates that Longabaugh visited a hospital in Buffalo, N.Y., in 1901, where he was treated for a bullet would to the leg suffered 'in the Far West.' Nickle maintains that the injury is identical to the one Long sustained in the Cortez shootout."

    Unless I am mistaken, the referenced Pinkerton document is "Report J.T.C. from Phila Apr 3/1902," which states that Longabaugh "was in hospital last Summer 1901 in Buffalo NY pistol shot wound he said he got in extreme West and said had relatives in Montclair, Pa." No mention of the location of the wound.


  • Un huh, sure
    Dec. 28, 2009 5:10 a.m.

    Nickle says: "Just buy my book and all will be revealed to you."

    Barnum was right. There IS one born every minute.

  • jamesRobertWalton
    Dec. 27, 2009 9:27 p.m.

    he's buried up at Sundance Ski resort. otherwise why would it be named that. Robert Redford played the sundance kid part. it all fits.