Deseret News | LDS Church, Boy Scouts named in abuse lawsuit

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LDS Church, Boy Scouts named in abuse lawsuit

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mv | 8:42 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Where are the parents in all of this...they claim the church was at fault but the parents failed in reporting the crime...Greed has no end..If it happened I feel bad for them but if it's within their family and if the family fails to report it to police then they should take responsibility.

dump the BSA !! | 8:48 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

please, please, please end the relationship with the scouts and focus on DTG.

re: mv | 9:15 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

There are times when a child doesn't feel comfortable taking abuse to their parents and therefor goes to the safest person they can find. A lot of times the parent(s) are unaware. If the boys did indead go to the Bishop, it was the Bishops responsibility to go to the propper authorities. Kids are afraid when it comes to abuse of any kind and a lot of times they don't want to cause trouble for anyone. They simply want the abuse to stop.

Comments continue below

JanSan | 9:25 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

What the DTG mean?

I think this is sad, but I agree that the parents should have been a part of this back when it happened and not now - also, jsut because the step -dad was in the scouts the BSA should not be charged unless it took place during their meetings or a campout or something like that.

I think that the scout program is a wonderful program and I feel sorry that there are people who use this program for horrible things.

I think greed has once more reared its ugly head

BSA no more | 9:33 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Agree - the affiliation with the BSA clearly has become more of a liability than an asset - both from a financial and a liability viewpoint.

Anonymous | 10:29 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

DTG = Duty to God.

Floyd Johnson | 11:09 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Any victims will please accept my regrets for the wrongs perpetrated against them.

The case itself is quite intriguing. A man filed suit against the BSA because he was abused by his step-father who was also a scout master. Seems odd. Is the step-father still alive? Has he been tried previously? Is he also a defendant?

Could a coach's son sue a former high school for abuses from his father?

Anyone familiar with the programs is aware that requirements for the Duty to God program and Eagle Scout program are interchangeable. The BSA could be dropped at any point with no change in the LDS youth program. I do, however, believe that the familiarity of the Eagle Scout award holds a value to recipients which would be lost if the LDS Church discontinued their relationship with the BSA.

I have received training from the BSA, and have been surprised in the policy changes instituted to prevent abuse. Both organizations have made great strides in the last two decades.

LDS Should Keep BSA | 11:13 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

People that say that the church should break off ties with the BSA either don't know what they are talking about, or haven't thought about it. This alleged abuse happened many years ago, before current safeguards were put into place. The BSA has very stringent safeguards in place now, that are much higher than the church's safeguards. If the church is going to run a boys youth program, it needs the BSA's help. And the BSA needs the church, which is very influential in helping the BSA maintain high moral standards. Every activity in the BSA is about safety. The best youth protection training now comes from the BSA, not the church. In my observation, I have often seen and heard parents try to get around the BSA's strict guidelines, by sponsoring an activity as a "church only" non-BSA activity. That is just crazy. It's asking for trouble. If the church wants to run a boys activity program, there is no better organization to partner with than the Boy Scouts of America. The organization isn't perfect, but it is the best thing going.

Youth Safety | 11:36 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Comprehensive youth protection rules, guidelines and procedures have been put in place in the scouting program over the last 30 years to ensure the safety of the youth. Bishops and youth leaders in the church need to take the BSA youth protection training, and follow the rules and guidelines. Every parent is required to read and discuss the youth protection guidelines with their boys, before that boy can receive their first badge. Nobody should be allowed to work with these boys as any kind of youth leader, unless they have turned in the BSA adult application. This will automatically start a background check. When that background check comes back clean, then the leader can assume responsibilities to work with the boys; not before. Bishops should make sure this rule and all other BSA guidelines that have been put in place to protect youth, are followed to the letter. If the Bishops don't know what the guidelines are, they need to get trained. Stake leaders should ensure that all ward leaders get the training. Lastly, parents need to remain vigilant and be actively involved with their children.

Former scout | 11:47 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

The church may not need the BSA, but scouting is a worthwhile program and the relationship between scouting and the church has been good for a lot of boys over the years. I had a lot of wonderful experiences as a boy scout and all of my leaders were exemplary men who behaved with the utmost integrity and lived by the highest moral standards.

I realize that there are scout leaders out there who abuse their positions of trust. I feel very sorry for the victims and totally support their right to seek compensation and justice. Scout leaders need to be well chosen, well trained, and well supervised. But on the whole, I think scouting is a good, desirable thing.

Yrag Notyalc | 12:01 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

It has been proven in the past and recent charges and convictions continues to show LDS youth in the scouting and seminary programs are vulnerable to sexual predators. We must continue our vigilance in teaching valuable warning signs to all children!

Happy Valley Hillbilly | 12:46 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

I have been involved with Scouting for over 40 years and still believe it is the best program going for our young men. Sure, it has it's problems; the grossly excessive salaries paid to scout execs; the negative publicity as in these allegations; the declining level of parental participation, etc. All in all, with Scouting's warts and imperfections, there is nothing any better.

Unfortunate | 12:50 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

and no child should have to put up with sexual abuse. I know. I was abused also as a child. But I got over it thanks to many caring individuals. Having said that, I have to think that part of this is greedy lawyers going after deep pockets. Is the money really going to heal the victim? Having had the experience, I would say no.

Re-Vamp the Legal System! | 1:00 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

Yeah, 40 years ago, someone abused me and only now that I found out that I can jump into bed with a sleazy ambulance chasing lawyer to try and get some free money, I am going to come forward and try to sue a big church and youth organization because they should have lots of free money to dole out whether my story is true or not!

Isnt there a statue of limitations on how long you can wait? How can anything be proven 40 years later on all hear say evidence! Why are individuals not responsible instead of loosely related churches! These are volunteer positions, not official church positions! We need to greatly revamp the legal system so that barring blatant negligence, we exempt churches and non profit organizations when individuals in volunteer positions are involved. Most Importantly we need to require these ambulance chaser lawyers to be responsible for ALL Legal fees when they file these expensive, frivolous lawsuits!

Bogus | 1:53 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

This guy is seriously disturbed and needs to heal through proper channels instead of suing the Church for something that happened decades ago, if at all. These people try to blackmail the Church because they know it doesn't like to be involved in controversy and negative publicity. And stop blaming bishops for everything, people. They are only human and aren't purposefully neglectful. It is up to VICTIMS to be persistent with bishops until an understanding has been reached, and not expect a bishop to have mind-reading capabilities.

Somebody | 5:54 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

The fact that this case is being brought over 30 years from the supposed events mean that he likely won't prevail legally against BSA and the LDS Church as that is too long a time period.
However the LDS Church appears to be taking the higher road in stating it "absolutely and unequivocally condemns sex abuse and will investigate."

Mh sons became Eagles | 5:56 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

but I no longer support the BSA financially. The BSA are run by volunteers on a local level but all the fund raising goes to give the scout executives these huge salaries. Look at what they make? The church needs to drop BSA. But they will not do it. The DTG cannot replace the scouts and the chuch has nothing to really put in its place. The church will just pay up whether they are guilty of not. It is the easiest way out. Too bad.

BSA | 6:37 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

The Church does not NEED BSA to run a youth organization. I'm sure there are plenty of other alternatives. BUT that doesn't mean the church should break ties. I think there just needs to be smarter leaders. (For BSA, not the Church) I am tired of hearing about bad leaders abusing their scouts. And even worse is when they have "accidents" at camping events that cost kids their lives. I am aware that accidents happen when young boys are together, but BSA needs to do all they can to reduce the risk factor for scouts, both physically and emotionally.

40 Years Ago??? | 6:49 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

Wow, and just now they are getting around to filing a lawsuit? Must have taken them a long time to find a lawyer slimey enough to take on the case. My other question was, if it was his step-dad that did the abusing, why not sue him? Or sue the DMV, they gave the guy a drivers license which allowed him to drive the boys out camping (if that is where the abuse happened)?

Mikeq | 7:00 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

An abuse allegation over 30 years old? The judge ought to have the courage to stop this in it's tracks and dismiss. I'm not condoning abuse, but this is abuse of the system and someone looking for a pay day. There is no evidence and there can't be any evidence except one persons word over another. These people see the deep pockets of the church.

Robert | 7:33 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

This is just harrassment.

Ralph | 7:37 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

40 years later, eh? and all of the sudden the victims have been irreparably harmed. I totally agree with "re-vamp". Where is the stature of limitations? If plaintiffs were required to pay the defendents legal fees when they lose, these type of nuisance, money-grubbing suits would never exist.

Oregonian | 7:42 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

I totally agree with "Re-Vamp the Legal System." These lawyers care only for themselves and nothing about helping their clients' "pain."

American Citizen | 7:51 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

Youth Safety 11:36pm is exactly right.

Bishops frequently don't have the training to require Scout leaders to get Youth Protection training before being called to scouting jobs.

Youth Protection training is available online and only takes about 20 minutes.

Anonymous | 7:54 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

Why should the church drop scouting? The Eagle Scout award helps so much later on. I know that I was asked about it when applying to a few jobs, my brothers all received automatic pay raises in the military for having it and most people know what you learned to earn it.

Former Scoutmaster & a LDS | 8:12 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

I was active in scouting during the 70s/80s as a Scoutmaster. During that time, LDS church changed the Mutual program to a youth-run program, and the adults were to be "shadow leaders". In Phoenix where I lived, the adults failed as shadow-leaders. During that time, I took BSA training. What a contrast in training. BSA had wonderful training for adults.

I moved to Massachusetts and was Scoutmaster for 12 years. Because we were a small branch, my Branch President allowed me to have all three AP age groups in my troop. For 12 years, my troop and I had a wonderful time together, and my boys got excellent training and experience as youth leaders, because we did leadership things the BSA way. A problem was when fathers came on campouts tried to control their sons, and they really messed up the troop organization that I had tried so hard to establish. I would take the fathers aside and talk with them about how the troop was organized and run by the boys.

My observations in my Utah wards is that LDS men still don't know how to conduct a boy-run group.

New Hampshire | 8:27 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

Hmmm... Replacing the BSA with DTG would not address this issue, as the leaders would be the same. I think Boy Scouts is a marvelous program.

That being said.... I have been involved with 4 troops (1 as a kid, and 3 as an adult, in 4 different wards), and I have seen 4 leaders jailed for sex crimes. I have seen the lives of many boys ruined. (The lives of the kids who were abused really did blow up... In one ward I saw an entire "generation" of youth lost to drugs, alcohol, etc., and I attribute it directly to the abuse by the scoutmaster). As a result, I NEVER allow my son on an overnight activity without my being there, and would urge all dads to take such responsibility for their own kids.

Clearly there were inadequate safeguards in the past (but I don't believe that implies negligence or legal culpability).

The Rock | 8:45 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

This is difficult. In the 1970's there was an absolute requirement for confidentially between the clergy and the confessor. They could not go to the authorities unless they were asked to do so.

I live in Washington State. The law requires medical professionals and teachers to report any suspected child abuse to the authorities. Our stake president and both counselors fell into this category. You want people to confess their sins for many reasons. The sinning (abuse) must stop and many times these people need help to stop. Nobody could confess their sins to a member of our stake presidency without being turned in to the law. Others had to deal with it.

These 40 year old cases where many of the witnesses may be dead are getting tiresome.

The Oregon attorney who is pushing the Portland case claimed that a High Priest in his 80's was in fact LDS clergy. This guy had no calling. A willingly ignorant judge ruled that the guy was clergy. The Bishop actually counseled the family not to take the 80 year old man into their home. They their son actually shared the same bed with the guy. Insane, we lost.

RE: dump the BSA ! | 8:49 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

It is so sad that some are so uninspired and lack basic understanding that they do not comprehend that scouting and Duty to God are one in the same, both companion parts of the same Aaronic Priesthood.

Unfortunately, scouting does not exist everywhere outside of the US in the proper form and can not provide the same opportunities to young men. It is the place where young men should be leading the program, and adults need to learn to be advisors and not generals.

dcj07 | 8:53 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

One must question the motive of the Attorney in Portland. Have we bothered to find out if this man had a bad experience with the Boy Scouts or the LDS faith? What axe does he have to grind? Why does he represent plaintiffs in three very diverse regions with similiar complaints? How long did he search out individuals to try and make a case? Obviously the focus here is on the relationship between the BSA and the LDS Church. However, as has already been stated, both the Church and the BSA have taken inordinately large steps to proctect the youth, steps which I feel make for a much better program than I had 40 years ago. I don't feel that the complaints are well founded. In my opinion, they reflect a personal vendeta by a Lawyer in Portland who has an axe to grind. My feeling is that we would all be better served if he would seek out some help to deal with his anger rather than launch more unfounded and ridiculous lawsuits that only serve to waste time and money.

BSA | 9:07 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

I am a scoutmaster in my ward and I do not like the BSA. However, I see the value of the principles that it teaches to youth (honesty, faith, servict, etc.). I think the DTG would do a better job of teaching these principles to LDS youth but I think we also have a responsibility to better our society. The church will continue to support the BSA as long as its moral fibers remain the same.
Even though the LDS church could perform the mission much more effectively and efficiently it will continue to support a cause that is a force for good in society.
If every young man in the US would join the BSA you have to admit our society would be a better place.

Just a Thot | 9:13 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

All these voices questioning how this abuse can suddenly become a problem 40 years after the fact have little or no understanding of the affects of abuse. Abused children compartmentalize their experience to be able to survive. Decades later something disrupts that compartmentaization and the affects of the abuse are suddenly back and a problem for the victim because it was never adequately delt with before. This may not be every victim's experience and I'm glad for those that are able to deal with it and over come it. But those that attempt to deal with it decades shouldn't be dismissed. All too often they are still trying to deal with it.

Just a Thot | 9:21 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

Those that question how come this suddenly becomes an issue 40 years after the abuse occurred have little or no understanding of the affects of abuse. Children often compartmentalize the abuse in order to survive. It can drive you crazy. Then, decades later something disruptes that compartmentalization and the affects suddenly become a problem for the now grown-up child. Now they must deal with it. This may not be the experience of every victim - those that can escape and deal with it early are blessed and can break the cycle. But we shouldn't dismiss those that come 20, 30 or 40 years later struggling to cope. It can be a life altering problem that can rob the victim of a normal, healthy life.

blame the victim | 9:24 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

These may have been volunteer positions, but in the LDS Church, which positions aren't? The LDS Church does not have paid clergy. Additionally, scout leaders are called and it is an official position - I know, I was called as one once.

The culpability comes when Church leaders are informed that the abuse is occurring and does nothing to stop it.

Children are powerless. There should not be a statute of limitations on child sex abuse - if you abuse a child, you should have to worry about being prosecuted for that until the day you die.

If you are worried about false claims - then protect yourself. Never be alone with a child. (And, since it is very unusual for child sex abusers to only have one victim, the number of victims and the similarity in circumstances is usually a good place to start with verification of the claims.)

Now, just out of curiosity, how many of you blasted Polanski or blasted Hollywood for wanting that case dropped? How is this case any different?

@ The Rock | 9:27 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

There may have been confessional confidentiality - but when a victim goes to the Church leaders and files an abuse claim, there is no confessional and no confidentiality.

Mormon girl | 9:40 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

you guys have no idea what you're talking about. this case will bring change to the policies that are currently inadequate to protect our children. 30 year old evidence is still evidence. There is still the same requirements to prove your case. These leaders allowed abuse in their sanctuaries, classrooms, tents, boyscout trips...THEY WORRIED MORE ABOUT THE VICTIM THAN THE LITTLE CHILDREN! i say THANKS FOR COMING FORWARD. The road to healing is different for everyone, but justice is still justice.

Idahoan | 9:45 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

If I remember correctly, this lawyer in Portland has gone after the Church several times with other clients. I think he's even been involved in a suit involving an Idaho man. This guy is dangerous.

BSA? | 9:58 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

Hello? You don't like the BSA, the program that the Church has been part of since 1914? DTG does a better job? OK, look. The purpose of Scouting is to set up a way to track individual progress toward self sufficiency and self honor. It is a reward system that has inspired young men for nearly 100 years. DTG, inspired and directed by the Church asks, has a specific section that encourages YM to participate in scouting. I hope that as a scoutmaster you fully recognize the great value of the program and inspire (encourage) your young men to paricipate (as is directed in the DTG).

Anonymous | 10:00 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

Even if the bishop did neglect to report the crime, an honest person would hold that bishop accountable, not the church to which he belongs. They are obviously attacking the church because they believe that is where they can get the most money. It’s disgusting to see such greed (as possibly bigotry against the church) masquerading as a desire for justice.

In Alaska | 10:02 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

This makes me so sad. For the abused, for the church, for the BSA. I hope that the suit can be resolved quickly.

On another note, so many false accusations have been filed in recent years that my husband has asked me to attend many of the youth nights and early morning seminary with him to ensure that there is another adult always present - not necessarily as a protection for the kids (actually, my husband has been assulted by one of the boys in our ward), but a protection against false accusations.

no surprise | 10:15 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

The same people that want to make false claims against the gay community being dangerous to children are rushing in to make excuses and minimize for the LDS church and BSA the hypocrisy is so think you could cut it with a knife.

Anonymous | 10:16 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

"Now, just out of curiosity, how many of you blasted Polanski or blasted Hollywood for wanting that case dropped? How is this case any different?"

Well, let's see - in that case, the man was tried soon after the rape of a 13 year old girl, he was convicted and fled to avoid punishment. In this case (at least as depicted in this article), you have allegations made many years after the fact, with no criminal cases ever having been filed, and now no proof other than someone's say-so. Is that clear enough?

a thought | 10:22 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

complex issues complex solutions complex world.

the criminal justice system is not able to handle these cases and that is why they keep happening.

yes there is a big time difference which is not unusual in abuse cases but the victim does not generaly have an awakening after 30 years it is instead a long process of discovery, repression, readjustment, and so on. we may never know the particulars but it is telling that there is a 30 year time frame here. i will not say what is or is not legitimate here but many 30 year old abuse cases are circumstantial and he said she said laden. i suspect that the lawyer is taking that into account.

i also found it interesting that the majority of these cases are in parts of the country that are not friendly to the LDS church or the BSA so there may be more at work here than we can fully see. it is no secret that there are many un these areas who would like to see the LDS church and the BSA sued into oblivion for their stand on social issues.

CB | 10:22 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

This is just another 'bottom feeder' enriching himself by finding 'victims' where time has truly erased evidence for or against these charges. A settlement will take place because the cost of going to trial is prohibitive and of course, 'a child at risk' is always a winner. Judgment will be rendered, if not here in truth, but where it truly counts and matters.

Mike | 10:23 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

For the past several decades, LDS Church Presidents have encouraged and strengthened the Church’s relationship with the BSA. I worry that those who speak so adamantly against the relationship. As an Eagle Scout who has served for many years in the BSA, I love the program and know that the BSA helped me, my son, and many young men with whom I have served.

@ Anonymous 10:00 | 11:08 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

You hold the Church accountable because the Bishop was a representative of the Church. If the Church wants to claim no liability because the Bishop was acting on his own, they can attempt to do that. (In some circles, that is known as "throwing someone under the bus" and is viewed rather negatively - but nothing says the Church cannot do that.) The Bishop's defense against that (reasoning why the Church should be included and he should not be left swinging on his own) is that he was following standard procedure, that he went to an official of higher position than himself and followed that individuals advice, or that he was not trained what to do in this situation. Any of these would, of course, have to be proven. None of them make the Church look good. The Church could defend against those claims by showing that they did have a procedure in place which he did not follow, that the other individual he went to was acting on his own (starting the whole cycle over again regarding that individual), or that they did in fact provide training for this situation which he did not follow.

@ 10:00 | 11:16 a.m. Nov. 17, 2009

You hold the Church responsible for the same reason you hold the company responsible when an employee drops a chair on your feet:

Respondeat Superior: Let the superior reply (alternatively, let the master answer).

Basically, it is the idea that when you act as a representative of an organization, you are that organization and they are accountable for your deeds - good or bad.

When the Church does something good, we acknowledge the Church for that good - the Church helps in disaster areas (it may have been Joe, and Jane, and John individually, but it was the Church collectively). Likewise, we hold the Church accountable for bad things that are done by those who represent it.

This is done to encourage the organization to use care in choosing representatives.

HarryL | 12:22 p.m. Nov. 17, 2009

BSA currently has very strong policies that are intended to protect youth. It may seem untenable, but the real threat, although it taken here to be from adults, is in many more instances from other youth.

Regardless, if there was abuse it should positively discerned. These accusations all of a sudden pop up in several areas at the same time. That is not impossible, but it smacks of suspicion to me, not matter what the common denominator to the perversion or crime might be.

Even though it is hard to admit, memory is not considered to be reliable. This is why we are encouraged to write our journals daily, because we not only forget the facts but we forget the emotions as well.

I think it is safe to say that we never forget a trauma or a loss. However, often these events are dealt with by the mind in ways that make it difficult to recognize them as they truly are or on our own, meaning without help.

We don't know what is happening here except (1) similar accusations are being systematically leveled against the BSA and the Church, and (2) this does not make them true.

From Oregon... | 1:00 p.m. Nov. 17, 2009

This attorney has made his living suing the Catholic and LDS churches and the BSA. He has websites advertising that if you have ever been abused by these entities, come see me. He is not interested, apparently, in suing the people who actually committed the crimes or suing organizations that don't have much money. He goes after the deep pockets. He has enriched himself by going after the donations of people who contribute to these organizations.

Anonymous | 1:26 p.m. Nov. 17, 2009

The BSA program certainly is not equal to the Young Womens program. When will the Church create a program for the Young Men that is and finally pull out of BSA ?!

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