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Readers' forum: 2 words: an eternity
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Anonymous | 7:57 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009
Gosh, Kevin, I had no idea you were the prophet. We heard that blacks would not
get the priesthood. We heard that polygamy was hear forever. My problem is
that the concept of the family has been distorted by the church in the last 20 -
30 years. The family IS important, but it is an instrumentality to help us meet
this earthly probation. It is the ends to a means, not the end mean. I really
thought Christ was at the center, but now we worship the concept of the family,
which, by the way, is to the detriment of those not in an ideal family
situation.
2 words: Interracial Marriage | 8:33 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009
Heard all the same arguments in the 50's about interracial marriage. How
did that turn out?
Comments continue below
Abe Lincoln | 8:52 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009
to: 2 words: Interracial Marriage
so now you gays admit that all this run-around was really about allowing gay marriage after all? whatever happened to "we don't wan't gay marriage, we just don't want to evicted?" this is ridiculous. you gays are nothng more than liars. it looks like all those radical groups saying that if you give the gays housing they'll want marriage were right after all. you don't care about housing. you won't stop until the family is destroyed and society becomes a brothel. what? you deny it? just like you deny that you want gay marriage when you ask for housing? you keep telling christians to stop being hypocrits, but you openly lie and then say trust us. when it gets to the marriage debate, no doubt you'll say "we don't want to destroy marriage, we just want to be a part of it." give me one good reason to beleive anything you gays say? it seems to me that whatever you say you won't do, is what you actually do.
so now you gays admit that all this run-around was really about allowing gay marriage after all? whatever happened to "we don't wan't gay marriage, we just don't want to evicted?" this is ridiculous. you gays are nothng more than liars. it looks like all those radical groups saying that if you give the gays housing they'll want marriage were right after all. you don't care about housing. you won't stop until the family is destroyed and society becomes a brothel. what? you deny it? just like you deny that you want gay marriage when you ask for housing? you keep telling christians to stop being hypocrits, but you openly lie and then say trust us. when it gets to the marriage debate, no doubt you'll say "we don't want to destroy marriage, we just want to be a part of it." give me one good reason to beleive anything you gays say? it seems to me that whatever you say you won't do, is what you actually do.
Anonymous | 8:54 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009
I still struggle with people who care what the LDS church thinks about gays.
Like all the others, the LDS church is fabricated bologna. Simply a way to
control a population with an undeliverable promise of eternal life. If it works
for the Mormons then fine but I no more care what they think than I care what
the KKK or PETA thinks.
Anonymous | 8:58 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009
Wow: I was around in the fifties. Didn't hear any of the same things about
interracial marriage.
What I hear was "Be careful about marrying someone with a different cultural background. Mixing cultural expectations can make marriage more difficult."
This was great advice at the time. We now live in a world where different cultures are mixed as never before. Being careful in choosing a marriage companion is still good advice. Mixing cultural and racial backgrounds is not as big a deal as it was then.
What I hear was "Be careful about marrying someone with a different cultural background. Mixing cultural expectations can make marriage more difficult."
This was great advice at the time. We now live in a world where different cultures are mixed as never before. Being careful in choosing a marriage companion is still good advice. Mixing cultural and racial backgrounds is not as big a deal as it was then.
Anonymous | 9:12 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009
"The family is the most important unit in the LDS Church"
And that is why I left the LDS church; it became more about "the family" than it did about Christ and his atonement. Christ would not push the gays away, but your "family centered" church does. Stop using his name.
And that is why I left the LDS church; it became more about "the family" than it did about Christ and his atonement. Christ would not push the gays away, but your "family centered" church does. Stop using his name.
Re " 2 words @ 8:33" | 11:55 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009
2 words: Interracial Marriage | 8:33 a.m.
Trying to draw an analogy between interracial marriage and gay marriage is a loony-toons red-herring attempt on your part.
There is nothing "Imoral" about interracial marriage, and the church has never said there was. The church has NEVER prohibited interracial marriage. There was a time when they suggested members think carefully about it, but not because of moral problems or doctrinal problems, but because society puts extra strain on those relationships (and marriages have enough strain without adding the weight of the problems that often come with differences like race, religion, culture, etc).
The church also warned members to think carefully about marrying people with religious differences, cultural differences (not only race), because these differences can sometimes become a wedge and gradually weaken and break down the love and the marriage. Just a recommendation, NOT Doctrine.
Gay marriage is a WHOLE DIFFERNET THING. Behavior the gay relationship is founded on is against the fundimental expectations of our father and savior.
These are totally different situations. One was a suggestion based on forseable stresses placed on the marriage. The other is based on Doctrine, sin, purity, etc. Totally different.
Trying to draw an analogy between interracial marriage and gay marriage is a loony-toons red-herring attempt on your part.
There is nothing "Imoral" about interracial marriage, and the church has never said there was. The church has NEVER prohibited interracial marriage. There was a time when they suggested members think carefully about it, but not because of moral problems or doctrinal problems, but because society puts extra strain on those relationships (and marriages have enough strain without adding the weight of the problems that often come with differences like race, religion, culture, etc).
The church also warned members to think carefully about marrying people with religious differences, cultural differences (not only race), because these differences can sometimes become a wedge and gradually weaken and break down the love and the marriage. Just a recommendation, NOT Doctrine.
Gay marriage is a WHOLE DIFFERNET THING. Behavior the gay relationship is founded on is against the fundimental expectations of our father and savior.
These are totally different situations. One was a suggestion based on forseable stresses placed on the marriage. The other is based on Doctrine, sin, purity, etc. Totally different.
Myopic Views | 12:17 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009
That is truly amazing Kevin!
I don't know what life will be like for any of us even 5 minutes from now.
Thanks for sharing you insight.
I'm glad you had all the answers for us.
BTW,
Did you know that
Closed minds = Closed Hearts
...
I don't know what life will be like for any of us even 5 minutes from now.
Thanks for sharing you insight.
I'm glad you had all the answers for us.
BTW,
Did you know that
Closed minds = Closed Hearts
...
@ "12:17 p.m. " | 1:12 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009
12:17 p.m.
Thanks for sharing your OWN myopic views.
Do you think just because you say something makes it so?
I don't personally agree that having your mind closed on a given subject automatically means your heart is closed.
I think God's mind is closed on some subjects. (ie, sin, breaking his laws, murder, rape, etc). Having his mind made up on these subjects does NOT automatically mean his heart is closed.
He can still have an open heart and love us ALL and at the same time still have his mind made up irrevocably on some topics like these.
Don't talk in such simplistic aboslutes as X=Y and you can probably make a more sensible arguement.
IF there is a God, and his mind is made up on any given topic, and he isn't open to being convinced by the sophistries of men, debate, etc... it doesn't mean his heart is closed.
IF there is such a thing as right/wrong.... That doesn't automatically mean anyone who accepts that has a closed heart. That's just an obsurd assumption on your part.
Thanks for sharing your OWN myopic views.
Do you think just because you say something makes it so?
I don't personally agree that having your mind closed on a given subject automatically means your heart is closed.
I think God's mind is closed on some subjects. (ie, sin, breaking his laws, murder, rape, etc). Having his mind made up on these subjects does NOT automatically mean his heart is closed.
He can still have an open heart and love us ALL and at the same time still have his mind made up irrevocably on some topics like these.
Don't talk in such simplistic aboslutes as X=Y and you can probably make a more sensible arguement.
IF there is a God, and his mind is made up on any given topic, and he isn't open to being convinced by the sophistries of men, debate, etc... it doesn't mean his heart is closed.
IF there is such a thing as right/wrong.... That doesn't automatically mean anyone who accepts that has a closed heart. That's just an obsurd assumption on your part.
re:@ "12:17 p.m. " | 1:12 p.m. | 2:20 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009
I'm sorry your view of the entire Unverse is so Black & White.
Right/Wrong
Heaven/Hell
[I'll assume you are a Conservative]
I believe in a Liberal God who looks at each of us on a case-by-case basis, as individuals and takes ALL things into account.
I also believe in "Relativity",
Were in the speed, size and shape of the Universe,
to the morals, light and knowledge of a given person.
I believe a person will be judged by the measure of their character "relative" to their upbringing, surroundings, circumstances, experiences and knowledge in their own life.
All of nothing thinking seems to me a false and very unfair notion.
Peace
Right/Wrong
Heaven/Hell
[I'll assume you are a Conservative]
I believe in a Liberal God who looks at each of us on a case-by-case basis, as individuals and takes ALL things into account.
I also believe in "Relativity",
Were in the speed, size and shape of the Universe,
to the morals, light and knowledge of a given person.
I believe a person will be judged by the measure of their character "relative" to their upbringing, surroundings, circumstances, experiences and knowledge in their own life.
All of nothing thinking seems to me a false and very unfair notion.
Peace
To "2:20 p.m.' | 3:22 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009
2:20 p.m.
You know you and Korihor have the same philosophy? (there is no right or wrong, I decide what is right for me and I'll tell God what's right for me and MY situation, etc). I don't know if you know how he ended up.
My point was... I think it's obvious there are some absolutes in God's mind. He's not wishy-washy and open-minded to debate and changing his mind on what he KNOWS is not right. And yet... His heart is open.
That was my only point.
You know you and Korihor have the same philosophy? (there is no right or wrong, I decide what is right for me and I'll tell God what's right for me and MY situation, etc). I don't know if you know how he ended up.
My point was... I think it's obvious there are some absolutes in God's mind. He's not wishy-washy and open-minded to debate and changing his mind on what he KNOWS is not right. And yet... His heart is open.
That was my only point.
@anon | 4:22 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009
You fail to recognize the history of the Bible in your commment when you
criticize "change" when change is necessary and decreed by the
Lord.
Many old testament prophets had concubines to increase or add to their lineage.
That practice ended when is was supposed to.
The Savior himself limited his mission and teachings of the gospel to the tribe of Judah, very specifically excluding the local Samaritons.
As he left for the last time, he directed them to go two by two and preach the gospel to ALL the world.
The Lord determines when people are ready for his message.
Homosexuality is not one of those flexible pracitces, so people need to decide whose side they're on.
And stop thinking that the LDS church is going to change it's belief on such a specific perversion.
To believe so is purely trying to justify one's self.
To the adultress, Christ was forgiving, but cautioned her to go and "sin no more".
Don't think he would have continued excusing her had she continued to sin or said "I was born this way", or "I can't help myself".
Mercy cannot stop justice.
Many old testament prophets had concubines to increase or add to their lineage.
That practice ended when is was supposed to.
The Savior himself limited his mission and teachings of the gospel to the tribe of Judah, very specifically excluding the local Samaritons.
As he left for the last time, he directed them to go two by two and preach the gospel to ALL the world.
The Lord determines when people are ready for his message.
Homosexuality is not one of those flexible pracitces, so people need to decide whose side they're on.
And stop thinking that the LDS church is going to change it's belief on such a specific perversion.
To believe so is purely trying to justify one's self.
To the adultress, Christ was forgiving, but cautioned her to go and "sin no more".
Don't think he would have continued excusing her had she continued to sin or said "I was born this way", or "I can't help myself".
Mercy cannot stop justice.
@7:57 | 5:08 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009
“concept of the family has been distorted by the church”
Pure boloney. The church publicly emphasizes most those values that are being attacked the most. If you went to church however, you would know that Christ is, and has always been, the central doctrine.
“we worship concept of family, which is detriment of those not in an ideal family situation”
Bull. We worship only our Heavenly Father, and we do that best by obeying his commandments. We seek the ideal in EVERYTHING - because Christ said to be perfect even as He is perfect. That does not mean we expect perfection of anyone or that we believe anyone has attained it other than Christ. NOBODY is in an ideal situation — family or otherwise. LDS doctrine does NOT tell people what to be. It tells them what Christ wants us to aim for.
Pure boloney. The church publicly emphasizes most those values that are being attacked the most. If you went to church however, you would know that Christ is, and has always been, the central doctrine.
“we worship concept of family, which is detriment of those not in an ideal family situation”
Bull. We worship only our Heavenly Father, and we do that best by obeying his commandments. We seek the ideal in EVERYTHING - because Christ said to be perfect even as He is perfect. That does not mean we expect perfection of anyone or that we believe anyone has attained it other than Christ. NOBODY is in an ideal situation — family or otherwise. LDS doctrine does NOT tell people what to be. It tells them what Christ wants us to aim for.
@9:12 | 5:10 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009
“[blah blah blah]… And that is why I left the LDS church”
Give me a break. Fooling yourself will work much better in private.
“Christ would not push the gays away, but your ‘family centered’ church does.”
Stop blaming the church for the mechanisms of your imagination. The LDS Church teaches whatever Christ taught with regards to behavior. TheLDS Church strongly emphasizes seeking God’s help and relying on Christ’s atonement because we know our best efforts will otherwise come up short. If you choose not to follow Christ or choose not to seek His help, then YOU choose to leave His church. Nobody pushed you. And regardless of what you think, we still care about you and empathize with any struggles you may have in following Christ.
Give me a break. Fooling yourself will work much better in private.
“Christ would not push the gays away, but your ‘family centered’ church does.”
Stop blaming the church for the mechanisms of your imagination. The LDS Church teaches whatever Christ taught with regards to behavior. TheLDS Church strongly emphasizes seeking God’s help and relying on Christ’s atonement because we know our best efforts will otherwise come up short. If you choose not to follow Christ or choose not to seek His help, then YOU choose to leave His church. Nobody pushed you. And regardless of what you think, we still care about you and empathize with any struggles you may have in following Christ.
Re: @9:12 | 6:36 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009
"The LDS Church teaches whatever Christ taught with regards to
behavior."
And what did Christ teach about homosexuality? Oh, that's right, NOTHING! Not a recorded word on the subject. If gays present such a threat to God and His order, don't you think that Jesus would've mentioned that? Or are you one of those people who care more about being "Mormon" than about what Christ actually said and taught?
And what did Christ teach about homosexuality? Oh, that's right, NOTHING! Not a recorded word on the subject. If gays present such a threat to God and His order, don't you think that Jesus would've mentioned that? Or are you one of those people who care more about being "Mormon" than about what Christ actually said and taught?
Christy | 7:16 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009
"And stop thinking that the LDS church is going to change it's belief
on such a specific perversion."
It doesn't matter. Contrary to what you think, the Church is not the center of the universe. People don't care all that much what you believe. Gays don't want your blessing, they know you will never give it. They just want you to treat them no differently than you treat your neighbor. They want no more special rights than your co-worker has.
Stop being so obstinate and repressive. It's ugly.
It doesn't matter. Contrary to what you think, the Church is not the center of the universe. People don't care all that much what you believe. Gays don't want your blessing, they know you will never give it. They just want you to treat them no differently than you treat your neighbor. They want no more special rights than your co-worker has.
Stop being so obstinate and repressive. It's ugly.
@ "5:10 p.m." | 1:53 p.m. Nov. 17, 2009
5:10 p.m.
The church is NOT pushing gays away. Some gays are pushing the church away though.
Gays are always welcome at church and always will be. God never ceases to love them and likewise everyone at the church that claims to follow his example should do likewise (but there will always be a few people who don't get it, but you have to allow THEM to make their mistakes and repent too).
But don't mis-inturpret this to mean that God must change his standards to accomodate and OK this behavior. Likewise for the church.
Just because we don't embrace the behavior doesn't mean we no longer LOVE or embrace the individual involved.
The church is NOT pushing gays away. Some gays are pushing the church away though.
Gays are always welcome at church and always will be. God never ceases to love them and likewise everyone at the church that claims to follow his example should do likewise (but there will always be a few people who don't get it, but you have to allow THEM to make their mistakes and repent too).
But don't mis-inturpret this to mean that God must change his standards to accomodate and OK this behavior. Likewise for the church.
Just because we don't embrace the behavior doesn't mean we no longer LOVE or embrace the individual involved.
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Marriage between mixed race couples were banned within temple walls at one time too.
Oh wait, that discrimination is different than this kind of discrimination. I forgot, how silly of me. I can't keep anything straight.