Deseret News | Seer stone, Nephite interpreters are religion, not magic

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Seer stone, Nephite interpreters are religion, not magic

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J | 12:41 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Referring to Old Testament magical thinking only serves to strengthen the argument against you and Joseph Smith. It is superstitious nonsense.

Me to Mr. Ash | 12:49 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Mr. Ash: “In Joseph's day many people believed in divining and treasure digging.”

Me: The vast majority of people, then as now, did NOT believe in this.

Mr. Ash: “Diviners, wielding rods or seer stones, were often called to locate lost objects or treasure.”

Me: No, they were NOT OFTEN used.

OC | 8:07 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

As I Mormon I was always taught that the Urim and Thummum was left by Moroni with the Golden Plates. If that doctrine is correct how then did we ever expand that definition to "include a special "seer stone" owned by the prophet"

Comments continue below

To: Me to Mr. Ash | 8:11 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Please give us your sources of information from which you've derived your opinions. Bible Dictionary? Quotes from Biblical Scholars?

Mr. Ash, please do the same.

Someone Concerned | 8:15 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

All of that said, the idea that it was necessary for Joseph to understand magic in order to prepare him for his prophetic role is, in my opinion, silly. It may be worse. It may be as uninspired as some of the concepts in the Nicene creed. This idea has been postulated in a recent popular Biography of Joseph. Additionally, as I understand it, most of the information we have on the seer stone comes from someone who was an apostate of 50 years. If you know any apostates, how highly do you regard their opinions, I mean, their ability to put two and two together and interpret the truth?

Mormon Scholar | 8:22 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Martin Harris, Emma Smith, David Whitmore and countless others have all stated that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon using a chocolate colored seer stone Joseph found in a well.

Also, the Church still has this seer stone and it has been photographed and you can see a picture of it yourself (just google seer stone). It is an interesting looking stone.

old churchman | 8:44 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

I wonder if Mr. Ash will eventually write an article about how Joseph Smith actually translated the Book of Mormon?

Peep Stone | 8:49 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Willard Chase, a friend of the family recalled:

"I became acquainted with the Smith family, in the year 1820. At that time, they were engaged in the money digging business, which they followed until the latter part of the season of 1827. In the year 1822, I was engaged in digging a well. I employed Alvin and Joseph Smith to assist me; the latter of whom is now known as the Mormon prophet. After digging about twenty feet below the surface of the earth, we discovered a singularly appearing stone, which excited my curiosity. I brought it to the top of the well, and as we were examining it, Joseph put it into his hat, and then his face into the top of his hat. It has been said by Smith, that he brought the stone from the well; but this is false. There was no one in the well but myself. The next morning he came to me, and wished to obtain the stone, alledging that he could see in it; but I told him I did not wish to part with it on account of its being a curiosity, but would lend it."

Steve in Kaysville | 9:02 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

To Mormon Scholar,

I just googled the seer stone and looked at the picture of it. My question is who carved all of those markings on the seer stone and why? Please respond. thanks

Someone Concerned | 9:07 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Yes, you can Google Seer Stone and at the top of the list will also be a link to "Mormon's and their Crystal Balls". The rest of the world rightly thinks we look silly, when we talk silly.

In my opinion there is a great difference in so called "Mormon Schoolars". Personally, I've never read a McConkie book that I felt taught false doctrine or where the author was misinformed or had alterior motives. This subject of the Seer stone is covered well in "Revelations and the Restoration" by Joseph Fielding McConkie, pages 96, 98, & 1008, and there the idea that the Book of Mormon, for example, was translated by a seer stone is amply refuted.

Mormon Scholar | 9:35 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

To Someone Concerned 9:07 a.m.,

Although Joseph Smith had the Urim and Thummim, the evidence shows that he preferred to use the seer stone found in a well to translate the Book of Mormon. The Mormon historian B. H. Roberts acknowledged the use of Joseph Smith’s seer stone. He made the following statement in the Comprehensive History of the Church, Vol. 1, page 129:

"The Seer Stone referred to here was a chocolate-colored, somewhat egg-shaped stone which the Prophet found while digging a well in the company of his brother Hyrum, for a Mr. Clark Chase, near Palmyra, N.Y. It possessed the qualities of Urim and Thummim, since by means of it – as described above – as well as by means of the Interpreters found with the Nephite record, Joseph was able to translate the characters engraven on the plates."

Mormon Scholar part II | 9:39 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Joseph Smith’s father-in-law, Isaac Hale, also noticed a definite relationship between the method Joseph Smith used to translate the Book of Mormon and the way he searched for buried treasures. In an affidavit that Isaac Hale provided we find some very interesting information:

"I first became acquainted with Joseph Smith, Jr. in November, 1825. He was at that time in the employ of a set of men who were called "money-diggers;" and his occupation was that of seeing, or pretending to see by means of a stone placed in his hat, and his hat closed over his face. In this way he pretended to discover minerals and hidden treasure… Smith, and his father with several other "money-diggers" boarded at my house while they were employed in digging for a mine that they supposed had been opened and worked by the Spaniards, many years since. Young Smith gave the "money-diggers" great encouragement, at first, but when they had arrived in digging, to near the place where he had stated an immense treasure would be found – he said the enchantment was so powerful that he could not see."

Mormon Scholar part III | 9:40 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

David Whitmer, one of the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon, described how Joseph Smith placed the "seer stone" into a hat to translate the Book of Mormon:

"I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. (An Address to All Believers in Christ, by David Whitmer, 1887, p.12)"

A Man's Perspective | 9:56 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

A modern-day Church leader has quoted Whitmer, the quote listed by Mormon Scholar above.

Please see the Ensign article "A Treasured Testament" in the July 1993 Ensign. Elder Russel M. Nelson said in that article:

"The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote:

"Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man."

Somone Concerned | 9:58 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Isaac Hale had a strong personal dislike for Joseph Smith.

David Whitmer rejected Joseph Smith, declaring him to be a fallen prophet for more than 50 years.

Do you go to Caiaphis or Peter to find out about Jesus?

A Man's Perspective | 10:01 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

This article by Ash is an excellent one that displays the need of Latter-Day Saints to understand the details of our history. When the phrase Urim and Thummim is used, we need to understand more fully what that means, as Ash has discussed. It included the seer stone Joseph Smith had. Really, it is not a lot different from the divine stones that came with the plates. The Book of Mormon was translated by the power of God. We Latter-Day Saints know that. The lack of a decent alternative explanation from critics is one evidence of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. But the Spirit confirms its truth. If God would reveal his word and restore his Church in the latter-days, it seems reasonable that he would include some divine manifestations with it.

Anonymous | 10:24 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

RE --- To: Me to Mr. Ash | 8:11 a.m

["Please give us your sources of information from which you've derived your opinions. Bible Dictionary? Quotes from Biblical Scholars?"]

what do you want to know? I don't understanmd your question... he said that most people back in the 1800s didn't believe in divining rods or seer stones. And that most people do not believe in them now either. why would he quote from the bible when his statement is undoubtable true? people in the 1800s were not that gullible, nor are they now (present company excluded).

I don't think anyone understands your question when you say to quote the bible to validate that most people have not been that gullible in the last 200 years. Seems self-evident...

Biblical mysteries | 10:24 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

The key is the source of the mysterious powers or magical arts. "Aaron"s staff becomes a snake" (Exodus 7: 9-12)Verse 8,"The Lord Said to Moses and Aaron". "Jacobs magical rod" (Gen 30: 37-39)The scheme worked-but only because of God's intervention(see Jacobs on admission in 31:9)not because of Jacobs superstition. (Acts 1:26) casting lots. (Proverbs 16:33) Beleif in God is not by chance. This was before Pentecost,and the Gift of the Holy Spirit. (Mark 7:33-35)Jesus's miracles,"Then will the eyes of the eyes of the blind be opened,and the ears of the deaf unstopped." (Is 35:5) God(Jesus) is the great Doctor.

to -- Someone Concerned | 8:15 | 10:28 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

["If you know any apostates, how highly do you regard their opinions, I mean, their ability to put two and two together and interpret the truth?"]

their ability to put two and two together and interpret the truth? i would say a fair bit better than someone that thinks magical stones were used to write a religious book...

yes, I would say their opinion would be regarded more highly than some others...

Mormon Scholar conclusion | 10:28 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

To Someone Concerned,

In a letter written March 27, 1876, Emma Smith acknowledged that the entire Book of Mormon, that we have today, was translated by the use of the seer stone. James E. Lancaster wrote:

How can the testimonies of Emma Smith and David Whitmer, describing the translation of the Book of Mormon with a seer stone, be reconciled with the traditional account of the church that the Book of Mormon was translated by the "interpreters" found in the stone box with the plates? It is the extreme good fortune of the church that we have testimony by Sister Emma Smith Bidamon on this important issue… a woman… wrote to Emma Bidamon, requesting information as to the translation of the Book of Mormon. Emma Bidamon replied… March 27, 1876. Sister Bidamon’s letter states in part:

"Now the first that my husband translated, was translated by the use of the Urim and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost, after that he used a small stone, not exactly black, but was rather a dark color."

to - Mormon Scholar | 8:22 a.m | 10:30 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

["Also, the Church still has this seer stone and it has been photographed and you can see a picture of it yourself (just google seer stone). It is an interesting looking stone."]

do you still have the tophat? can we try writing some more? or can your prophet see if they work for him? seems like there's probably more yet to write....

Mormon Scholar | 10:31 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

To Someone Concerned,

According to the testimony of Emma Smith and David Whitmer, the angel took the Urim and Thummim from Joseph Smith at the time of the loss of the 116 pages. This was in June 1828, one year before David became involved with the work of translation. David Whitmer could never have been present when the Urim and Thummim were used. All of this he clearly states in his testimony to Brother Traughber:

"With the sanction of David Whitmer, and by his authority, I now state he does not say that Joseph Smith ever translated in his presence by aid of Urim and Thummim, but by means of one dark colored, opaque stone called a ‘Seer Stone,’ which was placed in the crown of a hat, into which Joseph put his face, so as to exclude the external light. Then, a spiritual light would appear before Joseph, upon which was a line of characters from the plates, and under it, the translation in English; at least, so Joseph said." (Saints’ Herald, November 15, 1962, page 16)

To Someone Concerned | 10:39 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

According to the testimony of Martin Harris, Mr. Smith often used the "seer stone" in place of the Urim and Thummim, even while the later remained in his possession – using it as a mere matter of convenience.

"But now, alas! After all this trouble and pains and care on the part of God, and on the part of so many holy men of old, this "Urim and Thummim" is found at last to be altogether superfluous; not needed at all. This "peep stone" found in a neighbor’s well will do the work just as well – and is even more convenient, "for convenience he used the seer stone." So we are left to infer that when he used the Urim and Thummim at all, it was at some inconvenience. And probably he only did it out of regard to the feelings of his God, who had spent so much time and anxiety in preparing it so long ago, and preserving it to the present day for his special use! (The Golden Bible, 1887, pages 250-51)"

To someone concerned | 10:42 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (Elder Russell M. Nelson, "A Treasured Testament," Ensign, July 1993, p.61) (emphasis added)

to someone concerned continued | 10:43 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Since Joseph openly employed the seer stone in the hat for translation, at one point during the translation of the 116 pages, Martin Harris apparently tested the Prophet’s abilities. After translating for a time each day, the two would often take a break and walk to a nearby river and throw rocks into the river to unwind:

“Once Martin found a rock closely resembling the seerstone Joseph sometimes used in place of the interpreters and substituted it without the Prophet’s knowledge. When the translation resumed, Joseph paused for a long time and then exclaimed, ‘Martin, what is the matter, all is as dark as Egypt.’ Martin then confessed that he wished to ‘stop the mouths of fools’ who told him that the Prophet memorized sentences and merely repeated them.” (Told in Millennial Star 44:87; quotation from Kenneth W. Godfrey, "A New Prophet and a New Scripture: The Coming Forth of the Book of Mormon," Ensign, January 1988, p.6)

Uncle Reality | 10:45 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

It is undisputed that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon with a chocolate colored seer stone he found in a well:

"One item mentioned by President Woodruff about the private dedicatory services at Manti is of more than passing interest. `Before leaving,' he writes, `I consecrated upon the altar the Seer Stone that Joseph Smith found by revelation some thirty feet under the earth, and carried by him through life.' This is the very Seer Stone that the Prophet Joseph Smith used part of the time when translating the Book of Mormon; the one he took from the well he was digging with his brother Hyrum, near Palmyra, for Mr. Clark Chase. (C.H.C. 6:230)"

Chocolate Rock | 10:49 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

On February 25, 1856, Brigham Young displayed the seer stone tothe regents at the University of the State of Deseret (Later re-named University of Utah),one of which was Hosea Stout. He described it that night in his journal:

"a silecious granite dark color with light colored stripessome what resembling petrified poplar or cotton wood bark…about the size but not theshape of a hen's egg." (Stout Diary, February 25, 1856)

To concerned someone | 10:52 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

ModernChurch authority Bruce R. McConkie confirmed the use of the stone by Joseph:

"The Prophet also had a seer stone which was separate and distinct from the Urim and Thummim" (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, 818)

In about 1982, a descendent of Brigham Young, Mary Brown Firmage was told by the First Presidency's secretary that the seer stone was in First Presidency's vault. She was allowed to see it when she visited that office. She reported:

"The stone was not chocolate brown but rather the color of brown sugar. It was 3-4 inches long, 2 inches wide, and had a hump in the middle which made it perhaps2 inches thick at the thickest point. It was fiat on the bottom and had three black, concentric circles on the top 1/2 inch. Below the circles were many small black circles.The stone was not transparent."
(Mary Brown Firmage interview with Richard S. VanWagoner,11 Aug 1986. Van Wagoner papers, Marriott Library)

Re; A Man's Perspetive | 10:53 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Joseph could not even understand or translate the KJV. In (Jude 6) Joseph taught that the angels lost their "first estate"(pre-existence)which he taught would lead to a second estate or mortality. But in Modern translations(NIV Jude 6,) teaches the angels lost their (arche)positions of authority and power and became fallen angels(demons).

My2Cents | 11:07 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

To SOMEONE CONCERNED,

Please study up on your Church History.

Please Explain | 11:09 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Why haven't my comments been posted? Is this board restricted to "Mormon Scholar" and "To someone Concerned"?

What is the difference between a crystal ball and a seer stone? Why on earth would you believe in one and not the other? Frankly, I can see no difference between Joseph Smith and a gypsy fortune teller.

CJ3 | 11:12 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

I just looked at the seer stone on the internet. This is the first time I have ever seen a picture of it. Why are there all of these strange markings on the stone? Did Joseph put those marking there?

to -- Uncle Reality | 10:45 a.m | 11:24 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

["It is undisputed that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon with a chocolate colored seer stone he found in a well"]

undisputed? certainly not the right word to use, since most people on the planet dispute it... and perhaps "uncle reality" isn't the best name to use if you're going to make statements like that...

to - My2Cents | 11:07 a.m | 11:32 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

["Please study up on your Church History."]

yes - please do. you will be absolutely amazed at the history of your church. quite incredible...

Greg in Herriman | 11:36 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Why did Joseph carve circles in his seer stone? The picture is fascinating. I am going to print it off and show my Gospel Doctrine class on Sunday.

Two Bits | 12:35 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Okay, please explain then why Thomas B. Monson and none of the other "prophets" need to use the seer stone to receive their revelations?

put the stone on display | 12:36 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Why doesn't current church leadership pull out the stone and stick it on display at Temple Square for all to see? Seems like a fasinating piece of church history - why are they hiding it in a vault?????

To ; Mr. Ash | 12:59 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Seer stones and interpretation,The Bible teaches us to test prophets and their doctrines and see if they are from God.. "In the beginning was the Word,and the Word was with God and the word was God,...The Word became flesh and lived for a while among us. We have seen his glory,the glory of the one and only, Son..."(John 1:1,14 NIV)[Not an exalted man] John also tells us in (1 John 4:3)to beware of those teach a different Christ(instead of translated, AntiChristos)." Joseph Smith doctrines must be compared to Biblical doctrine,and creeds. Mormons deny the tri-une God,that puts them out of the pale of Christianity.

Bill | 1:59 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Joseph Smith taught that God the Father, his son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost all make up one GODHEAD. This is consistant with the information in the Bible. Jesus Christ is the only begotten of the world. Christianity and most Christian churches teach that God, the son and the holy Ghost is one person.

If taking what is said in the Bible, why would God on at least two occassions say this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. Why would Christ be talking about himself? Also, at his leaving he stated he would leave the comforter as a means of knowing Christ. The Bible in all it does testifies of the DIVINE authority of the Son, the only begotten in the flesh of the Father, Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon likewise testifies of the Divine authority of the son. It is another testament of Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith could never have translated the Book of Mormon or wrote such a book that between the two would contain the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ without the assistance from on high. This is what we state emphatically that our critics deny.

to -- Bill | 1:59 p.m | 2:27 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

["the Book of Mormon or wrote such a book that between the two would contain the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ"]

your assumption that it does contain the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ may be faulty. how do you know there isn't more?

Cindy Q. | 2:32 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Michael Ash,

It would be interesting to hear about what the symbols mean that are on the seer stone and their signifigance.

RE; Bill | 2:42 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

Joseph Smith taught, "Which Father,Son,and Holy Ghost are one God,ifinite and eternal without end. Amen.(D&C 20:28)also see(2Nephi 31:21 and(3Nephi 11:36) Joseph taught there is only one God,then later changed his mind.
Trinitarian statement"...baptizing them in(into,eis)the name of the Father,and of the Son,and of the Holy Spirit(Mt 28:19 NIV)(to onoma) the name of,not names of,Good Greek grammar.
Christianity teaches: Three persons one God. same substance.

Playing Favorites? | 2:43 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

If the Book of Mormon is a testament for Christ in the New World, why isn't there one for places like Southeast Asia or Australia? Why would Christ visit America and not His Aborigine children, say in Australia or the Pacific Islands? Were they decendants of Lehi too (or not)?

Sell Stones & Bones of Saints | 3:35 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

How many seer stones are there?

Utah pioneer Philo Dibble reportedly received a Green seer stone by Joseph Smith, who received it from Jack Belcher in Pennsylvania in the 1820's. It currently resides in the Princeton Collection of Western Americana, Princeton University Library.

The Wilford C. Wood Museum in Bountiful, Utah holds a "sandy colored" seer stone apparently used by Joseph Smith, and passed on to the relatives of Lewis Bidamon by Joseph's widow, Emma, who married Lewis after Joseph died.

Both David Whitmer and his son, Jacob Whitmer, who were "special witness" to the Book of Mormon, claimed to have seer stones. Photos of these are in the LDS Photo Archives. One is football shaped, with two holes bored in it, and the other is rectangular with two holes bored in it.

An item labeled as "Peep Stone" is included as part of a collection of a pioneer Utah Mormon family, displayed at the Daughters of Utah Pioneers museum in Salt Lake City.

Which stone is the real one? I guess we need a "seer stone" that reveals the one and only true and living "seer stone"!

Sven | 5:34 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

I want my own Seer Stone. It looks like everyone else had one, so I want one too. I will start digging tonight.

eBay Employee | 7:14 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

To Sven,

Try eBay. You can actually buy a "seer stone" replica of Joseph Smith's Seer Stone. I'm being totaly serious. If you don't believe me then check for yourselfs. No doubt, some enterprising Mormon.

Re: playing favorites | 7:17 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

He did and it was Buddha. Get over yourself. The mormon church does not have clue.

Prophet in my own mind

Re:Playing Favorites? | 7:40 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it. (2Ne 29:11)

AND verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister.
For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them.

But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there may be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them. (3Ne16:1-3)

Anonymous | 8:06 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

RE:Playing Favorites?

"If the Book of Mormon is a testament for Christ in the New World, why isn't there one for places like Southeast Asia or Australia?"

Who said there isn't? The Quran is only one example of God's dealings with the people of the Middle East and there are accounts of Christ's visits to Asia. An absence of such texts today does not denote that they do not exist and will not be revealed in the timing of the Lord.

"Why would Christ visit America and not His Aborigine children, say in Australia or the Pacific Islands? Were they decendants of Lehi too (or not)?"

Who said he didn't visit any of those places?

Mormons believe that Christ visited many peoples but that's a separate issue from how Christ restored his Church and his teachings through the Prophet Joseph Smith and gave us the Book of Mormon.

Had Joseph Smith been born in another country then the book that God would have revealed and had him translate would most likely have been a record of those people and not Native Americans.

Nathan | 8:53 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009

When did Christ visit Asia??? Buddha was not Christ!

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