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Higher education at 'critical tipping point'
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Educational Welfare | 8:44 p.m. Nov. 13, 2009
Hard times and budget reality will require Utah to cut back on some
non-essential administrators and soft courses/degrees. Educational welfare for
the jobless is becoming the norm in my neighborhood especially after
unemployment runs out. Many people cannot find work but at least higher
education provides a structure, chance for knowledge, and monetary grants or
student loans. Many students who get questionable majors will have a hard time
paying back their loans after the Greater Recession ends.
Joe Moe | 10:25 p.m. Nov. 13, 2009
@7:30 p.m.
Wow, I've heard a lot of ideas, but I've never heard yours: that our economic troubles are due to companies avoiding Utah, and that they avoid Utah due to liquor laws!
Please remember....Utah's economy and budget situation is actually BETTER than most of the nation. I'm just glad we don't live in the grand old state of California (I'll bet CEOs and companies LOVE it there, it's not nearly so "boring" as Utah). Of course, we'll probably all be bailing out CA right along with Michigan and New York, any day now.
Wow, I've heard a lot of ideas, but I've never heard yours: that our economic troubles are due to companies avoiding Utah, and that they avoid Utah due to liquor laws!
Please remember....Utah's economy and budget situation is actually BETTER than most of the nation. I'm just glad we don't live in the grand old state of California (I'll bet CEOs and companies LOVE it there, it's not nearly so "boring" as Utah). Of course, we'll probably all be bailing out CA right along with Michigan and New York, any day now.
Comments continue below
Tab L. Uno | 12:40 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009
Governor Herbert has stated that education and the economy are two of his top
policy priorities. Hopefully the Governor can work to ensure that businesses
are tied closely into the future global growth areas and that our higher
education system is tied to the same so that an integrated enconomic-educational
system is in place to assure that those students receiving an education have a
greatest opportunity for productive, rewarding jobs when they graduate. Plus
hopefully an educated consumer class will focus on purchasing goods and services
that have a great benefit to this world and to society and themselves in a
positive way.
Not for everyone. | 4:57 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009
Higher education is not for everyone and a lot of it has been going to waste.
This national push to put everyone in to higher education has been a bust and a
failure. Too many uneducated graduates have come out of college and are still as
illiterate as they went in. Too many are still barely able to meet a High School
level education let alone a higher eduction.
With all the cuts and losses maybe it is time to reevaluate and screen students for qualifying and the ability to learn beyond high school. What really damns these students is they are going in to college with no idea of what a job or career is or decide what they want in life. How can an 18 year old with no special talents make a decision to last 50 working years of their life?
Higher education has become narrow minded with a narrow education. Not many of them have an interest to assimilate and learn what a college means. The past 10 years of college has been nothing more than re-learning high school.
Higher education is also not a right, it's a privilege for those that qualify.
With all the cuts and losses maybe it is time to reevaluate and screen students for qualifying and the ability to learn beyond high school. What really damns these students is they are going in to college with no idea of what a job or career is or decide what they want in life. How can an 18 year old with no special talents make a decision to last 50 working years of their life?
Higher education has become narrow minded with a narrow education. Not many of them have an interest to assimilate and learn what a college means. The past 10 years of college has been nothing more than re-learning high school.
Higher education is also not a right, it's a privilege for those that qualify.
Ridiculous | 5:41 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009
Same thing we hear from higher education (and lower education) EVERY YEAR! You
could use the same story and just change the date.
Choices must be made | 8:40 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009
Even higher education must decide how to spend available funds. They have no
right to endless funding from taxpayers. Nor to endless tuition hikes, which
have historically outpaced inflation and all other costs.
In addition, administrations decide how to spend their funds. The University of Utah wasted over $600,000 fighting the laws allowing law abiding citizens to carry legally concealed self defense guns on campus. The U asserted that the money wasted on this obviously fruitless and illegal legal battle came from private sources. That smae money COULD have been used for better purposes.
The U recently tipped its hand that it is seeking another prolonged round of costly litigation trying to undermine self defense rights on campus. If they are prepared to throw away more money in their hoplophobic and Quixotic quest, they have no right to demand more from the legislature or to raise tuition, or even beg for donations.
Perhaps if they fired and/or cut the salary of the academic elites pushing stupid ideas they would be better off financially.
In addition, administrations decide how to spend their funds. The University of Utah wasted over $600,000 fighting the laws allowing law abiding citizens to carry legally concealed self defense guns on campus. The U asserted that the money wasted on this obviously fruitless and illegal legal battle came from private sources. That smae money COULD have been used for better purposes.
The U recently tipped its hand that it is seeking another prolonged round of costly litigation trying to undermine self defense rights on campus. If they are prepared to throw away more money in their hoplophobic and Quixotic quest, they have no right to demand more from the legislature or to raise tuition, or even beg for donations.
Perhaps if they fired and/or cut the salary of the academic elites pushing stupid ideas they would be better off financially.
Hey DNews... | 9:12 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009
Now would be a great time to remind us just how much fatcats like Sederburg and
Bioteau are paid to tell us why we should continue funding the expense and
opulence of this higher education system. Perhaps they could make a sizeable
contribution from their six-digit salaries, benefits and perks. Times are
tough. Show some restraint and tighten your belt some more Regents, ...instead
of whining for special immunity from more cuts!
to Repeal flat income tax | 9:24 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009
How would you propose that we make Utah less boring and more interesting?
Bankrupt California is pretty "interesting."
Joel Wright | 9:42 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009
Nonsense. Higher education needs to be cut this year just like everyone else.
Higher education is a privilege, not a right.
Here are a few simple ideas that could dramatically decrease the cost of higher education in Utah, that no one at the Board of Regents will even consider:
1. End tenure.
2. Move more classes on line instead of building fantastically expensive buildings.
3. Fund higher education based on enrollment, instead of funding a "system."
4. Separate funding for research from funding for teaching. Then fund research based on the benefit to the taxpayer.
These simple changes would result in at least a 20% savings, and likely improve the effectiveness of higher education as well.
Note the Board of Regents will never discuss any of these cost cutting or efficiency measures. Why? Because they are unelected, and get 6 year appointments based on their prestige and money, and ability to serve as tax collectors for the welfare state.
Here are a few simple ideas that could dramatically decrease the cost of higher education in Utah, that no one at the Board of Regents will even consider:
1. End tenure.
2. Move more classes on line instead of building fantastically expensive buildings.
3. Fund higher education based on enrollment, instead of funding a "system."
4. Separate funding for research from funding for teaching. Then fund research based on the benefit to the taxpayer.
These simple changes would result in at least a 20% savings, and likely improve the effectiveness of higher education as well.
Note the Board of Regents will never discuss any of these cost cutting or efficiency measures. Why? Because they are unelected, and get 6 year appointments based on their prestige and money, and ability to serve as tax collectors for the welfare state.
To Ridiculous 5:41 | 10:13 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009
Education has it's problems...but this article is right on track.
Did you know that as little as 10 years ago the United States provided 31% of the higher education for the entire world....and that number has fallen dramatically and is projected to be less than half that. Education is (I mean HAS BEEN) one of our major exports. Other countries (Like India) are quickly trumping the US when it comes to the education. Which means...we could become the third world country and they become the leader...
Education's problems can be tied to funding...and there hasn't been enough funding in education to make it what it should be...now the funding has been cut to the point that our educational institutions can just barely even function...let alone function well.
If we want our economy here in the United States to be robust...for years to come...then two things need to happen: (a) education needs to improve and (b) many more people need to get off their lazy butts and get to work. The work ethic of many is becoming pathetic.
Did you know that as little as 10 years ago the United States provided 31% of the higher education for the entire world....and that number has fallen dramatically and is projected to be less than half that. Education is (I mean HAS BEEN) one of our major exports. Other countries (Like India) are quickly trumping the US when it comes to the education. Which means...we could become the third world country and they become the leader...
Education's problems can be tied to funding...and there hasn't been enough funding in education to make it what it should be...now the funding has been cut to the point that our educational institutions can just barely even function...let alone function well.
If we want our economy here in the United States to be robust...for years to come...then two things need to happen: (a) education needs to improve and (b) many more people need to get off their lazy butts and get to work. The work ethic of many is becoming pathetic.
NO MORE!!! | 11:18 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009
Here is a cutting edge plan that has obviously escaped the geniuses running the
higher education institutions in this state. Look at your class catalog. There
are at least 30 "under water basket weaving" type classes that can be
eliminated today because they do not do anything. These classes do not lead to
anything but waste. How effective are the degree programs? If you have a degree
program that has limited graduation rates cut it. The program is suffering
because no one wants it. I know athletics is a sacred cow but I am certain there
are programs that can be eliminated or downgraded and still stay compliant with
Title IX. Who does the actual teaching at your indispensable institutions the
professors or their aides? There is an area that can be trimmed. Last part of
the plan how much time is wasted begging and slumming for money into to justify
people’s salaries? Perhaps this has become too much of a distraction from
actually teaching. You can cry wolf all you want but get your own little sacred
kingdoms cleaned out first lest you sound like rich folk begging for food while
eating your cake. You are not indespesable.
Online? | 11:32 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009
The problem with moving classes "online" is that the universities are
not willing to give up control and the socialist system must have control to
survive. The other problem is once you move classes online there is the issue of
freedom of thought. It is easier to control thinking or stifle it if the student
is right in front of you. Lastly online means demeaning and debasing the
university to the same level as all those "buy your degree for money"
outfits that traditional universities have been trying to stamp out of existence
as parasitic plague bringers. No online won’t work because the system of
control and propaganda will not allow for such innovative ideas. No just allow
them to succeed or fail on their own. If they want my tax dollars they need to
show they can earn it. No more suckling from the teat of government.
Higher e-clean own house first | 12:45 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009
First, get rid of non-contributing staff - tenured or not. That alone, will
save millions of dollars. Then, you wont have to throw even more burdens on our
backs.
Second, reduce inordinate salaries of admin, staff and teachers.
Third, cut unnecessary programs.
Fourth, return to teaching rather than inculcating political views.
Fifth, do more to move students thru the program more quickly - reduce required classes by two or three; provide and advertise counseling for class planning, etc., offer classes more often rather than once per year, as currently happens in many cases; have teachers teach the same class more than once per semester, etc. Paying a currently hired teacher a bit more for teaching a slightly higher load is less expensive than hiring another teacher in most cases.
Sixth, quit thinking of yourselves as being so privileged, holy and sacrosanct that we should provide for your easy income. We're not your serfs.
Second, reduce inordinate salaries of admin, staff and teachers.
Third, cut unnecessary programs.
Fourth, return to teaching rather than inculcating political views.
Fifth, do more to move students thru the program more quickly - reduce required classes by two or three; provide and advertise counseling for class planning, etc., offer classes more often rather than once per year, as currently happens in many cases; have teachers teach the same class more than once per semester, etc. Paying a currently hired teacher a bit more for teaching a slightly higher load is less expensive than hiring another teacher in most cases.
Sixth, quit thinking of yourselves as being so privileged, holy and sacrosanct that we should provide for your easy income. We're not your serfs.
Not a suprise | 2:49 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009
that many of the comments on here are bagging on Higher Education in Utah as any
chance to bag on education in Utah cannot be passed up by a some "Know it
all" types. What is your goal really? Do you want to do away with any all
types of public education in Utah? Public education wise we are already in a
race to the bottom with some academic stellar states such as Alabama and
Mississippi. How do you think Utah is going to attract outside business when so
many with a John Birch society bent, including our self serving legislature,
place such a low priority on it (if not put your money where your mouth is).
And don't give me the lame "greater efficiency" diatribe. I
think government in Utah due to being nickeled and dimed by the legislature (the
best one you can buy if you’re a lobbyist) runs lean as it is; you
can't get blood from a turnip. Your cheapness (aka selfishness) will be
all our downfalls economically as a state. But hey, we can be number one in
call centers and predatory lending.
To: Not a suprise | 3:26 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009
No what is needed is a higher education system model that is not emulating
California, Michigan, Ohio, or New York. What is wanted is fiscal responsibility
with stretching budget dollars. The higher education institutions are acting
like there is a never ending supply of money. Guess what the money spout has to
be turned off. The education budget in Utah is 47% of the entire state budget.
The math is not that hard to calculate. Would you prefer to give 60% to
education? What the tax payers of Utah want is a streamlined and effective
system that is responsive and competitive and the current system is not it. Utah
deserves a system that treats money as platinum, rare and valuable instead of
treating money like it is worthless green paper. Higher education is crying for
more money but what REAL steps have they taken to show fiscal responsiblity?
They have played with the ledger and impressed their ever small elite group of
friends but what have they really done? Nothing. Why? Because they know citizens
like you will keep giving them money and bailing them out. The nonsense has to
stop.
Digbads | 7:24 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009
I like how one person on here said "Separate funding for research from
funding for education". That would be *Terrible* for the U. When I was
doing research there, 40% of all the money brought in by researchers was turned
over to the the University. So a chemist with a $1 million dollar grant would
turn over $400k of that to the university.
Graduate students make a ton of money for the University, through both research grants, and as less expensive instructors.
Graduate students make a ton of money for the University, through both research grants, and as less expensive instructors.
I know it's frustrating but.... | 7:48 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009
I dislike how they use the example of students having to change majors so that
they can complete their degree "on time." When a class isn't
available, check UVU to see if it is. It may not be convenient, but at least
you would be able to transfer the credit and finish your degree.
I have a cousin who gave that same excuse with regard to Norther Arizona University in Flagstaff. His was a valid complaint since there wasn't another school around to offer what he needed. Here, we have a minimum of 4 universities in a 60 mile radius. Finishing a degree can be done if a person wants to badly enough.
I have a cousin who gave that same excuse with regard to Norther Arizona University in Flagstaff. His was a valid complaint since there wasn't another school around to offer what he needed. Here, we have a minimum of 4 universities in a 60 mile radius. Finishing a degree can be done if a person wants to badly enough.
Utah becoming uneducated | 7:53 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009
From the tone of the comments, people in Utah are content to be uneducated
whiners rather than compete with the rest of the world.
The rest of the world used to look to the US for their education, but it looks like we do not value education enough to maintain what we have let alone compete globally.
How many years before China and India own or control big business in the US???
The rest of the world used to look to the US for their education, but it looks like we do not value education enough to maintain what we have let alone compete globally.
How many years before China and India own or control big business in the US???
Early | 9:12 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009
Most of the complaints here about higher education are blaming the victims. The
real culprits are narrow-minded legislators who answer to the LD$ Church eager
to keep citizens in dumb submission. None of the elected leaders in this state
really want an educated populace or a dynamic system of higher education. I
regretted the departure of Governor Huntsman, for he understood the need to fund
all levels of education and to view these costs as investments in the
state's future and people.
Recent USU Alumn | 10:01 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009
I just graduated in May. I left just as the budget cuts were starting to get
bad. I for one am glad that I didn't have math classes with 100 students,
that my classes were not online, and that I was able to take classes (in person)
from research professors that write the text books and lead in their fields. I
had one-on-one time with faculty members who knew who I was and could give
individual support. If these cuts don't stop, this will no longer be the
case. These essential aspects of a quality education are quickly disappearing.
Higher Ed is not crying wolf. They have long since trimmed the fat and are now
cutting into muscle and bone.
I imagine that most of the commenters here were similarly fortunate during their college experience. Our youth have been handed this economy, they did not create it. Why should they pay for our debts? I'm sure that there are better, more innovative ways to fund the system, but let's not deprive the next generation of the priveleges that we have enjoyed.
I imagine that most of the commenters here were similarly fortunate during their college experience. Our youth have been handed this economy, they did not create it. Why should they pay for our debts? I'm sure that there are better, more innovative ways to fund the system, but let's not deprive the next generation of the priveleges that we have enjoyed.
Taxpayer revolte needed! | 10:02 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009
First step- Eliminate any "remedial" courses taught in college to
teach students what they should have learned in K-12. If they are not prepared
to enter college, then focus on fixing the government skool indoctrination
programs of K-12 to get them back to teaching what they should be. If they fail
to do so, penalize the K-12 system, don't just throw money at the college
level to cover up the problem.
Make the Regents jobs UNPAID positions and mandate that at least one third be filled with successful business leaders. They are the customers for the product of the schools, not career academicians pushing their leftist propaganda.
End tenure for faculty. Cut the non-teaching jobs.
Cut money wasted on athletic programs (coaches, weight rooms, scholarships, etc). Athletics should be a nice to do extracurricular activity, not a substitute for rigorous academic preparation for a productive career.
Make the Regents jobs UNPAID positions and mandate that at least one third be filled with successful business leaders. They are the customers for the product of the schools, not career academicians pushing their leftist propaganda.
End tenure for faculty. Cut the non-teaching jobs.
Cut money wasted on athletic programs (coaches, weight rooms, scholarships, etc). Athletics should be a nice to do extracurricular activity, not a substitute for rigorous academic preparation for a productive career.
Answer: raise entrance standards | 7:04 a.m. Nov. 16, 2009
College enterance requirements are to low. We are spending tax dollars in
education that has no or little benefit to society. We should be eliminating
majors like phsycology and consumer science. Those majors only exist for the
purpose of poor students getting a degree. The majors do nothing to help
individuals get a job.
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Utah could and should repeal the state flat income tax option it recently adopted. Companies don't avoid Utah because of the personal income tax. When I-Omega left Utah, the CEO said he was leaving because of the liquor laws. Utah has a reputation for being a boring state.
Face it, some people like it this way but the type A personalities who tend to become CEO's tend not to like a boring place to live. If they want skiing they can go to Colorado.