Deseret News | Christian founders

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Readers' forum: Christian founders

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Surprise? | 12:28 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

What else would you expect to find in a book called "The Founders on Religion"?

John C. | 2:15 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

To say the Founding Fathers where not Christian is like saying the New Testament isn’t about Christ and his teachings…

Again | 4:58 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

Hogwash!!

Comments continue below

freedom of religion | 5:34 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

being American also includes the freedom to NOT be religious! I know this really bothers you fine "Christians" in this state who want to force your beliefs onto everyone else.

Deists... | 6:31 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

One and all the f fathers were... As written about in numerous books.

A scholar's perspective | 7:30 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

Jene: Let's just stick with George Washington for the moment. He was NOT an avid churchgoer. He went to church infrequently and never sat for communion. In addition, according to scholars at the George Washington Papers (who know his work the best), he mentioned Jesus only once or twice in 9,000 pages of his public and private letters. Finally, he refused to discuss religion, God, or Jesus on his deathbed, leaving his closest friends and relatives to question if he was religious at all. I ask, does this sound like a Christian to you? George Washington recognized the utility of religion in public life--he thought it promoted public virtue--but please don't confuse his public positions with evidence of his private beliefs. He was a politician, and he recognized that most Americans were Protestants. For the best scholarship on GW's beliefs, go to Peter Henriques, Realistic Visionary: A Portrait of George Washington (esp. chap. 9); Mary Thompson, "In the Hands of a Good Providence": Religion in the Life of George Washington; and Frank Grizzard, The Ways of Providence: Religion & George Washington. These are the BEST scholars on GW and religion.

Anonymous | 7:44 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

I could care less what Religion the Founding Fathers were, or how often they went to church. You christians aren't goin' force your religion down mine or my childs throat...

Yes, they knew the Bible | 7:47 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

The founders knew plenty about religion. They knew that in the entire history of Christianity governments that embraced religion had not once, not ever, behaved in a manner that protected the rule of law and promoted individual liberties. They came from a world dominated by religious persecution and exclusivity, where the rights of the common man were meaningless if a church authority declared it so.

The founders looked at the sorry history of religiously led governments and decided to create a new form of government where religion would not be permitted to demand special treatment for itself at the expense of the rights of others.

The surest way to destroy the rights of individual Americans is to declare that America should be led by religious principals.

Indiana | 7:54 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

The arguers come out to again demean the men who fought and died to facilitate the birth of this great nation. They were men of a sound understanding of many things spiritual and were led by the Holy Ghost to make a document that is supposed to stand up for centuries as guidance for this country. The Constitution is being terribly threatened and nearly shredded, though not by the ignorant, but by the knowledgeable and purposeful. Please be educated enough not to let them get away with it and please don't ignorantly be a part of it.

Doug G | 7:58 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

Fair enough, but so what? They fonded a nation with freedom for themselves to worship as they chose, which could only work if they included the same rights for those who chose differently. If we want to keep arguing that they inherently chose one above the others, remember that not a one of 'em was mormon.

Norman | 8:06 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

Whatever the founders' religious views, they were careful to insure that citizens' views, or non-views, on religion were protected.

Anonymous | 8:11 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

Uh, what's your point? To say that anti-religion people "fight 'tooth and toenail' to convince others of their view" is no different than those who believe. They too fight to convince others of their views, such as missionary programs. The Founding Fathers were Christians, but they also believed in letting people choose how they wanted to believe. Hopefully believers and non-believers alike will respect that principle.

@surprise | 8:12 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

Thats all you got? You can't even debate the writers views, so you make a snide remark and scamper off...

Art C. | 8:35 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

What do you want? cross's on every street corner?
In America, there are hundred of religions, and different Gods.
Do you really just want to pretend that your God is the only important one?
Even if you have your particular brand of church on every street corner, its no more important than the little chapple in Magna, or the American Indian's way of worship.

@Surprise | 8:40 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

Other books on Washington recount his prayer and beliefs and also a transcendent vision that was given to him.

Anonymous | 8:52 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

And those who believe in religion aren't at all interested in converting others to their point of view. Not at all, no siree.

Grover | 8:54 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

I believe that the author is talking about a "cultural Christianity" more than a religious one. Everyone was exposed to it, but few chose to follow it by being a member of an organized religion.

Do some study, Jene | 8:57 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

The writings of the Founding Fathers of the United States show that the majority of them were Deists, not Christians.

Deists typically assert that God (or "The Supreme Architect") has a plan for the universe that is not altered either by God intervening in the affairs of human life or by suspending the natural laws of the universe.

Regarding George Washington's beliefs:

Historian Barry Schwartz writes: "George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian... He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative." [New York Press, 1987, pp. 174-175]

Paul F. Boller states in is anthology on Washington: "There is no mention of Jesus Christ anywhere in his extensive correspondence." [Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 14-15]

"Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself."
-Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal, Feb. 1800

Kevin | 9:07 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

"Through his brilliant leadership, always accompanied by prayer, he led us to victory over the imperialists of Great Britain to a new nation."

You mean he led us to victory over the imperialist Church of England.

Really? | 9:34 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

What is amazing is how Christians (and Mormons) who want to impose their beliefs on society at large dishonestly portray Washington and the other founders as believing Christians. Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration of Independence, openly rejected the divinity of Christ. Franklin and many other founders also were either agnostic or deists, believing in God, but not Christianity. Washington is generally considered a member of this group. Most of them attended church, of course, because to do otherwise would be political suicide (much as it is today). Wake up and read some sources other than Christian apologists.

Interesting | 9:47 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.” Benjamin Franklin Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758

Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.” George Washington Letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792

The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.” John Adams

“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” John Adams, Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.” Thomas Jefferson

Anonymous | 9:49 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

Washington and Franklin believed in Providence, not Got. Franklin started to become more religious in his later years. I don't know about the other founders, but I'm pretty sure Jefferson wasn't too religious.

Patsy | 9:59 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

"fight "tooth and toenail" to convince others of their view "

You're complaining about people trying to convince you of something while you're trying to convince people of something. Ironic.

EM | 10:02 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

Jene, what is your point? So what if the Founders were religious - or pretended to be?

Volumes and volumes can also be written about religion as a destructive force, and as many volumes can be written about the existence of good will where religion is completely absent. Whether the Founders were religious is an argument that makes no difference.

What is "Christian"? | 10:07 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

Jefferson, Franklin, and Washington all believed in the principles of Christianity and the principles that Christ taught of how one should live his/her life. However, by the end of their lives, none of them believed that Jesus was divine.

I believe He is the Son of God, but that doesn't make them to have believed it and as hard as conservative Christians want to make it so, it isn't. The history is what it is.

Mike Richards | 10:24 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

Indiana, very well said. You clearly warned us about those who are knowledgeable and purposefully try to mislead.

-----

God-haters try to sell their message by demeaning good God-fearing people. They would try to have us believe that the views of the Founding Fathers concerning a State/Church complex extended to the personal views of the Founding Fathers about Deity.

They would like us to believe that being a "Deist" equates to being an atheist. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Given the limited knowledge of the true nature of God during the time that the Founding Fathers birthed this nation, it is not surprising that they rejected the common teachings that existed at the time about the nature of God. Today, the majority of the citizens of Utah also reject the teachings about the nature of God that were being taught world-wide in 1776.

Those who jump to the conclusion that the Founding Fathers rejected God are wrong. They are intentionally misleading the argument. They are using that ploy because they have personally rejected God and have chosen to keep Him out of their lives.

What the....? | 11:48 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

Liberal Progressives like the Founding Fathers -- believing in a Supreme Being?

That ought to send Conservatives into a tail-spin!!!
[They keep saying Liberals are Atheists]

...

Hypocrisy | 12:01 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009

Who cares?

Does this cure Cancer?

Does it cause world peace?

Is the war in Afghanistan going to end because Ben Franklin was Christian?

Is it going to give millions of Americans' jobs back?

Is it going to solve all the construction and traffic woes on I-15?

I say we have enough to worry about right now. Jene and the rest of you, lets try and concentrate on our problems of today. Shall we?

MormonDem | 12:33 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009

Mike Richards:

Stop moving the goal posts.

To the letter writer:

Neither my patriotism, nor my belief in the Constitution, nor my belief in God and Christ, nor my belief in Mormonism is dependent on imagining the founding fathers worshiping or thinking the way I do. The cause of truth is not well-served by marshaling fishy facts in its support.

Patsy | 12:49 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009

So then having children with women other their wives was a way to what, multiply and replenish the earth?

Ultra Bob | 2:00 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009

The purpose of Religion is to enslave the minds of men.

It is much cheaper than military domination and much more effective.

All you have to have is a good story to allay the fears of man about the things he doesn‘t understand.

Throughout history man created gods to explain the unexplainable. And as man’s intelligence grew the ability to understand the true nature of things caused the false gods to be exposed as myth.

The unexplainable mystery of life and death remains and may never be put down. And so the god of life and death may live on forever.

That is for as long as human beings are still here, which is a debatable point in another story.

For the time being, religion is a necessary thing for most human beings, it helps us get through a very tough world.

But it may be a close race to see if religion saves us or kills us in it’s struggle for dominance.

Re: Mike Richards | 2:22 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009

So you say that the Founding Fathers were good, God-fearing people...who created a government that you continually rail against as being overbearing on your "liberty"?

Which is it, Mike?

(I also see that instead of responding to the multiple quotes concerning the Founding Fathers' feelings about Christianity, you have to insult the posters personally. Typical.)

Ernest T. Bass | 3:47 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009

Why would it matter what religion Washington was? The US isn't a christian nation, it's supposed to be a democracy, something invented by the ancient Greeks. The ancient Greeks were not christian so why do neoCONs attempt to make it something it clearly is not?
Some of the best people I know are agnostic and some of the worse people I've met live their religion to the extreme.
Religion brings more pain, misery and suffering than joy and genuine love.

Kevin | 3:59 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009

@Ultra Bob | 2:00 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009

Well said. You'd think that would satisfy them.

@Mike Richards

"They would like us to believe that being a 'Deist' equates to being an atheist. Nothing could be further from the truth."

You got that right, but I for one am not saying deism is akin to atheism. Please!

"Given the limited knowledge of the true nature of God during the time that the Founding Fathers birthed this nation..."

Uh, have we learned something since then? You don't mean Mormonism, do you? LOL

The Key | 4:25 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009

The key to ending religion is to use it as a political tool, which is exactly what has happened since the religious right and the Republican Party wed.

One of the references in Dallin H. Oaks recent talk made the same point. Too bad Oaks didn't bring out that point. A political party co-opting everything to do with God just turns people off and away. Stop it now!

Anonymous | 4:40 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009

I do not care how much you believe it, the truth is the founding fathers WERE NOT CHRISTIAN! Do some research... They believed in God and a higher power, but did not believe specifically in Christianity.

Mike Richards | 5:17 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009

@ 2:22,

The Constitutional government instituted by the Founding Fathers has been dying a slow death for three generations. Mr. Obama is determined to "change" it into something that has no resemblance to what the Constitution prescribes.

YOU, may believe that the rubber ruler you use to measure bills proposed by Congress against the Constitution is fun and games, but it is YOU and those who demean the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution that they created, who are eroding our liberties.

Surely you heard Mrs. Pelosi's response when she was asked whether the heath-care bill passed by the Democrats was Constitutional. She said, "Are you serious?" and then refused to answer the question.

Are YOU serious? Are you so determined that the liberals seize power that YOU are willing to throw away YOUR liberties?

God gives us the liberty to succeed or to fail - whichever we desire. He knows that the greatest lessons of life often come when we try and then fail. We learn from that.

The Founding Fathers knew that some would fail but most would succeed. They left compassion to the people and kept charity out of Government.

Lute | 5:27 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009

I don't know if the Founding Fathers were very good Christians or not, but at least they refrained from torturing prisoners, a prospect that bothered the devout GWB not in the slightest.

And whatever they were, it doesn't change that today's USA is multi-ethnic, multi-religious, and gives every evidence of staying that way.

mark | 5:56 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009

You'll find out more about George Washington reading his letters to Alexander Hamilton his young handsome aide camp....just saying.

EVERY statesman spoke in terms of a creator whether they believed in one or not. It was the 1700's and such speech was merely the fashion of the day. Most households only had a couple of books, the bible being the most common. The only people the Founding Fathers concerned themselves with were White adult men who owned property. All others could be exploited as property any way the OWNERS saw fit. Native Americans were considered savages and children who needed the US to manage them and their lands. Blacks could be bought and sold, whether they were children, or coupled, or families.

mark | 6:02 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009

Most of the Founding Fathers were freemasons

Does that make America a MASONIC LODGE?

mark | 6:12 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009

Even at the time of the Colonies, White Christian men who owned property were a minority. Native Americans, women, slaves, and share croppers were the Majority, but had absolutely no voice in their government, and most wouldn't have a voice for 150 years.

Re: Mike Richards 5:17 p.m. | 6:28 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009

The idea that anybody else but you is capable of interpreting the Constitution is totally impossible, right?

And what "liberties" is that evil Obama going to take away from you? Please list specifics.

Knowing you, though, you'll just respond to this with more insults. You know what, I would love to see how long you last without the accursed "government." No Social Security or Medicare when you retire. No one to pave or light your streets. No one to deliver your mail. No police or fire department to help protect you and your property. No FDA to help keep your food safe. No public school system to educate the people who will grow up to take care of you when you're old. Heck, no military to defend you. I'm sure that "charity" can take care of all that, right?

Now go ahead and belittle me. You don't have anything else to offer because your ideas are indefensible and you know it.

Mike Richards | 6:57 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009

@ 6:28,

Is the Federal Government authorized to provide local police protection, or is that a function of our local government?

Is the fire department an authorized duty of the Federal Government, or is that a function of our local government?

Is the public school system an authorized duty of the Federal Government, or is that a duty of our State and local governments?

Has there been no cases of food problems since the FDA was established?

Is my care and keeping a duty of the Federal Government, or is that a duty that will be handled by my children, just as my wife and I invited our parents into our home when the time came?

Social Security is bankrupt. It will not be there in five years when it comes time for the Government to keep its promise. They charged me a double portion because I'm self-employed, but they spent that money on their pork-barrel projects. I don't expect any help from the Federal Government, even though I've paid them many tens of thousands of dollars in SS payments.

Mr. Obama will throw you in jail if you don't buy insurance.

Insurance? | 8:45 p.m. Nov. 14, 2009

Yes, and so will your local police if you dont buy car insurance. But thats different, right?

Some people | 10:47 a.m. Nov. 15, 2009

like to mix religions and politics so much that they try and mold things to fit their religions. If carefully studied you can find that the founding fathers came from Christianity, but many of them did not actively participate. A number of them were "Deists" (believing in some higher power, but not beieving as Christianity does as to how that power interacts with us). Their feelings on Democracy were wonderful, famous. But they were clear on mixing religion with politics (we should not do it).

to Mike Richards | 10:55 a.m. Nov. 15, 2009

I'm curious -- when did you go to law school? What is your legal expertise?

Mike Richards | 2:32 p.m. Nov. 15, 2009

@ 10:55,

I've always wondered what makes a person more attracted to a book's cover than to its contents.

Do you still get permission from your professors before you post? Do you rely on what they spoon fed you as the only "truth", or did you use your time in college to learn how to learn?

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