Reader comments
Readers' forum: Health-care felony?
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Jail time | 12:25 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
A lot of young kids going to jail before this abomination of a tax bill is
reversed.
Freedom? | 1:48 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
And some of you out there could care less if we give up our freedoms as long as
you get something for nothing, right?
John C. | 2:59 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
If we learn anything at all from history is this…When ever a people have
tried to set up a free society, there is always someone who comes and tries to
take it away. Athens democracy only lasted 50 years. And those who seek for
power and control weather a single individual or in some cases a group of
elitists, they come with flattering words and promises, then when that fails to
get them what they want they take out the sword. Hitler used that tactic well.
He flattered the people of Germany with his words and intimidation, to get what
he wanted. Then he used it to get what he wanted from the leaders of Europe.
When that ceased to work he brought out blitzkrieg. It is amazing how willing
so many are to put the chains of slavery on themselves for what they think is a
bit of security.
Why can’t we learn?
Why can’t we learn?
Comments continue below
Obama's FINE! | 5:12 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
He's doing what voters want him to do. We elected him to reform health
care among other important things that were thrown by the wayside during the
Bushco years.
Judging by the ranting and crybaby sore-losers that appear every day here at the "opinion" section.
Judging by the ranting and crybaby sore-losers that appear every day here at the "opinion" section.
Stad up | 5:34 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
Take a lesson from the liberals, don't comply. If this becomes law,
don't dent in the certificate.
Make them throw us all in jail, then who will pay for their programs?
Make them throw us all in jail, then who will pay for their programs?
S2 | 5:36 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
A real concern for our citizens, heh. Trade liberty for a year of penal
system's health care...
That'll convince 'em.
That'll convince 'em.
Lew Jeppson | 5:51 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
There are features of this bill which are perverse. They could have been
avoided if we had simply gone straight to single-payer. But since people like
the writer scream socialism in response to single payer, we have to fix the
health care mess by creating a bonanza for private insurance.
Pro-choice? | 6:42 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
Where did all the pro-choice people go?
rvalens2 | 8:03 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
Sign me up for PRISON!
I'm not going to pay either their fine or participate in this Marxist health care plan.
If that makes me a CRIMINAL then so be it.
Once they fill up the prisons with hundreds of thousands just like me, maybe they'll get it through their thick skulls that the fines and intimidation weren't such a good idea.
John C. said it best ... they are planning to put the chains of slavery on us.
I'm not going to pay either their fine or participate in this Marxist health care plan.
If that makes me a CRIMINAL then so be it.
Once they fill up the prisons with hundreds of thousands just like me, maybe they'll get it through their thick skulls that the fines and intimidation weren't such a good idea.
John C. said it best ... they are planning to put the chains of slavery on us.
My take | 8:14 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
I support the health care bill, even though it does not go far enough.
It's better than doing nothing.
RedShirt | 8:27 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
To "Obama's FINE! | 5:12 a.m. " the problem is his health care
reform will increase the cost of private insurance.
Obama and the Democrats are taking over the economy. Currently the Federal government is directly responsible for 1/3 of the economy. If they take over health insurance, they will be in control of 50% of the economy. Do you trust the government with 50% of the economy?
Obama and the Democrats are taking over the economy. Currently the Federal government is directly responsible for 1/3 of the economy. If they take over health insurance, they will be in control of 50% of the economy. Do you trust the government with 50% of the economy?
lost in DC | 8:34 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
This approach to health care financing is wrong. It does not control costs,
just pushes cost onto future generations through all the debt it will create.
Does health care financing need fixing? Yes. But this bill is like adding anti-freeze to your water if it tastes bad — your water will taste sweeter, but it will kill you.
It’s also like throwing any liquid you can onto a fire, just because the liquid is there — it doesn’t metter that the liquid is gasoline.
Kill the bill! We can do better.
Does health care financing need fixing? Yes. But this bill is like adding anti-freeze to your water if it tastes bad — your water will taste sweeter, but it will kill you.
It’s also like throwing any liquid you can onto a fire, just because the liquid is there — it doesn’t metter that the liquid is gasoline.
Kill the bill! We can do better.
CJ3 | 8:35 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
I'm disappointed.
Obama listened to Utah's own Bob Bennett on this one.
Originally, the president was opposed to penalties for forced insurance. The idea was initially proposed in the Wyden-Bennett bill, and I suspect it was adopted after the closed-door meeting with the senator. It's not a "socialist" policy, but rather a conservative one.
Shame.
Obama listened to Utah's own Bob Bennett on this one.
Originally, the president was opposed to penalties for forced insurance. The idea was initially proposed in the Wyden-Bennett bill, and I suspect it was adopted after the closed-door meeting with the senator. It's not a "socialist" policy, but rather a conservative one.
Shame.
Anonymous | 8:39 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
This bill isn't so much about health care. The real idea behind this bill
is CONTROL.
If they can dictate when, where and how you get medical care. They can control virtually every aspect of your life.
Which is of course what they want.
"Don't eat that, you're already too fat."
"Since you're over the maximum age, we're not going to allow you to have that procedure."
"No, you're going to have to wait until your operation is approved."
"You want to use your own doctor? No, you'll have to use only those doctors on our approved list."
"Sorry, you need to make less money in order to get the FREE health care coverage."
"We see you already have 10 children; unless you get sterilized we won't be able to pay for your next child." (huh?)
"Sorry, the heart transplant operation you needed was given to a government official who was deemed more worthy."
"Death panels? Why no we don't use death panels ... only Health Czars."
If they can dictate when, where and how you get medical care. They can control virtually every aspect of your life.
Which is of course what they want.
"Don't eat that, you're already too fat."
"Since you're over the maximum age, we're not going to allow you to have that procedure."
"No, you're going to have to wait until your operation is approved."
"You want to use your own doctor? No, you'll have to use only those doctors on our approved list."
"Sorry, you need to make less money in order to get the FREE health care coverage."
"We see you already have 10 children; unless you get sterilized we won't be able to pay for your next child." (huh?)
"Sorry, the heart transplant operation you needed was given to a government official who was deemed more worthy."
"Death panels? Why no we don't use death panels ... only Health Czars."
Ultra Bob | 8:51 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
As an American Liberal Democrat who supports the Constitution and the government
of the United States, I hope and recommend that this horrible “heath care
bill” be rejected by saner minds and left to die.
This bill was written by the corporations of the health industry and is a prime example of what our government will be like if we let the corporations take over our government.
If we allow the corporations to become the government, freedom and liberty will become just a memory.
This bill was written by the corporations of the health industry and is a prime example of what our government will be like if we let the corporations take over our government.
If we allow the corporations to become the government, freedom and liberty will become just a memory.
@John C | 8:58 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
It isn't that someone has come along to take away our freedom. Tyranny in
modern times works a little differently.
What we have today are True Believers who know what is "best for everyone" and will therefore coerce us all into accepting what they view to be our liberties. Imagine that... being forced to take our freedoms, OR ELSE.
This isn't new. I wonder why we are only now getting angry about it. The same thing happened with public schools over a hundred years ago. Some of the first compulsory education laws required militia guard for kids marched to school--they had to be protected from their own parents who still labored under the delusion that they had some inalienable claim to their children.
We will soon enough come to regard as lunatics those who claim that nature has some other personalized calling or purpose for their own health care. Like with public schools, we will tell these poor fools that only "specialists" are qualified to care for the human frame. And when the men with guns come to take them away, we will think it Just.
What we have today are True Believers who know what is "best for everyone" and will therefore coerce us all into accepting what they view to be our liberties. Imagine that... being forced to take our freedoms, OR ELSE.
This isn't new. I wonder why we are only now getting angry about it. The same thing happened with public schools over a hundred years ago. Some of the first compulsory education laws required militia guard for kids marched to school--they had to be protected from their own parents who still labored under the delusion that they had some inalienable claim to their children.
We will soon enough come to regard as lunatics those who claim that nature has some other personalized calling or purpose for their own health care. Like with public schools, we will tell these poor fools that only "specialists" are qualified to care for the human frame. And when the men with guns come to take them away, we will think it Just.
to my take | 9:04 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
Does not go far enough? Exactly what is it you want? Do you want the federal
government to do everything for you?
This bill and everything else they are doing is destroying the will to work hard because if you make over a certain amount 70% of it has to go to the government.
Get a grip we are only entitled to what we earn and not what someone else hands us. How would it be if everybody got everything from somebody else. I do not want to live in that world. I prefer to earn everything I have including my health care.
This bill and everything else they are doing is destroying the will to work hard because if you make over a certain amount 70% of it has to go to the government.
Get a grip we are only entitled to what we earn and not what someone else hands us. How would it be if everybody got everything from somebody else. I do not want to live in that world. I prefer to earn everything I have including my health care.
Smity | 9:11 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
This is just false. The penalty is an additional 2.5 percent tax on a modified
adjusted income over a certain income threshold. The scenario in this article
is just right-wing misinformation. For this to happen to you you would have to
both fail to purchase the insurance and then refuses to pay your taxes. People
who refuse to pay taxes do go to jail. Nothing new here.
Republicans failed you | 9:24 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
Not only did they oppose the Democrats plan for health care, but they offered
literally blank pages as their solution.
I recommend you vote 3rd party next round.
I recommend you vote 3rd party next round.
Ultra Bob | 9:24 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
To John C. | 2:59 a.m.
“When ever a people have tried to set up a free society, there is always someone who comes and tries to take it away“ is true. Whenever you have something desirable, there are villains who will try to steal it away.
Your words probably are talking about our present government, however they sould really apply to the government takeover in progress by the private corporations.
BTW, is “blitzkrieg“ something like “shock and awe” that we used against the Iraqis?
“When ever a people have tried to set up a free society, there is always someone who comes and tries to take it away“ is true. Whenever you have something desirable, there are villains who will try to steal it away.
Your words probably are talking about our present government, however they sould really apply to the government takeover in progress by the private corporations.
BTW, is “blitzkrieg“ something like “shock and awe” that we used against the Iraqis?
yeah | 9:27 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
get the health insurance, oR PAY THE TAX. NOT paying TAXES has always been
against the law. I'm sure you will pay your taxes right? I don't see
anything strange about this.
Oh Please | 9:46 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
Breaking certain laws is known as "felony" behavior, Sam. I don't
know why you should find this surprising, since it's always been true. And
besides, I'm tired of subsidizing the cheap jerks without health insurance
who show up at the ER with a $1 million heart attack that we have to pay for.
I'm glad! | 9:54 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
With Obamacare I won't die in the street. Now, I'll die in a hospital
waiting to see a Doctor.
Whew! That's a relief.
Whew! That's a relief.
jackhp | 10:00 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
We live in a society. Our society has determined that is in the best interests
of everyone that everyone has access to basic levels of health care. The only
way to do that (because single payer is apparently way too easy and isn't
corporation friendly) is with a mandate. You have choices. You CAN opt-out.
If you choose to opt-out you pay a 2.5% tax which theoretically covers
society's cost for you not having health insurance. If you choose not to
pay the tax then you pay the consequences. Conservatives are always crying
about how freedom to act doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of your
actions. That's all this is.
Those are your choices for living in a society called the United States of America. If you don't like those choices, please, feel free to opt-out and leave.
Those are your choices for living in a society called the United States of America. If you don't like those choices, please, feel free to opt-out and leave.
@yeah | 10:10 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
So how is this this enforced? Young people with sporadic income and jobs, no
paychecks half the time, how do they afford this insurance that they are never
going to use? Oh, I get it, they pay more taxes, taken out of their pittance of
a check. Gosh, I guess it was a tax bill after all!
SLC gal | 10:13 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
RE: Smity: The penalty is an additional 2.5 percent tax on a modified adjusted
income over a certain income threshold
SO it's perfectly fine for poor citizens, since the lower your economic status the more likely you are to not HAVE health insurance becuase you can't afford it, to have to pay extra taxes on being poor? Nice!!!!
Furthermore, wouldn't this be considered unfair taxation taxing somebody on something they can't afford?
SO it's perfectly fine for poor citizens, since the lower your economic status the more likely you are to not HAVE health insurance becuase you can't afford it, to have to pay extra taxes on being poor? Nice!!!!
Furthermore, wouldn't this be considered unfair taxation taxing somebody on something they can't afford?
Lionheart | 10:16 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
@Ultra Bob: You are seeing what happened to the conservatives with the past
administration. We were betrayed. You and I have no friends in Washington,
demos or repubs. They are a group of power ambitious deal makers looking to
establish an oligarchy and they will make deals with the devils, be they devils
you dislike or devils I dislike.
Idahoan | 10:40 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
Republicans did have a plan that was only 230 pages. Doesn't sound like
"literally blank pages" to me.
Did people voting for Obama and other Democrats really vote thinking, "I want to be compelled to buy health insurance or pay a fine if I don't"? Did they vote thinking, "I want to have my taxes go up 5+ percent (for those making 1 million)so my neighbor can have health insurance (even if he doesn't want it)"? Not likely.
For the poster who claimed the health bill is not going far enough, what more do you want? A bill of 2,000 pages that gives little in return for what is demanded isn't far enough? What is? Taxing your neighbor 100%? What's mine isn't yours unless I offer it willingly.
How many feel betrayed by the House of Representatives for passing this? A Saturday vote even. Could this not wait until Monday? We're told not to make big-ticket purchases without "sleeping on it." Could this not have applied here? Were leaders really that fearful they had to push a vote before letting some common sense sink in? That speaks volumes.
Did people voting for Obama and other Democrats really vote thinking, "I want to be compelled to buy health insurance or pay a fine if I don't"? Did they vote thinking, "I want to have my taxes go up 5+ percent (for those making 1 million)so my neighbor can have health insurance (even if he doesn't want it)"? Not likely.
For the poster who claimed the health bill is not going far enough, what more do you want? A bill of 2,000 pages that gives little in return for what is demanded isn't far enough? What is? Taxing your neighbor 100%? What's mine isn't yours unless I offer it willingly.
How many feel betrayed by the House of Representatives for passing this? A Saturday vote even. Could this not wait until Monday? We're told not to make big-ticket purchases without "sleeping on it." Could this not have applied here? Were leaders really that fearful they had to push a vote before letting some common sense sink in? That speaks volumes.
@@Yeah | 11:41 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009
yeah, just like what happened to me when I paid for insurance as a young person
and never used it. Because I was healthy and young. that is how the whole
system works.
@jackhp | 12:00 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
See, this is the troubling sort of commentary. A "society" or
"commons" that includes all 300 million+ Americans, micro-managed by
"benevolent" overlords, is a strange development. Yes we live in
societies. They are small and local, with small and local interests and small
and local needs.
America is many, many societies. We cannot have one idea to fit all of us.
Society's "cost for you not having insurance" is a bogus and unquantifiable claim made by True Believers. We can come up with imaginary dollar figures for anything.
According to the American theory, what is best for Each trumps what is best for All. The reason? In America, we disagree about what is best, and about what the "right" society even looks like. To some, sickness and death are mere consequences that come to those who choose poor health. Who are we to grant them a "right" to circumvent natural consequences? Other cases require a great deal of casuistry to work out what the "rights" should naturally be. Forcing one vision upon the multitude, if it requires new taxes and new coercion, is tyranny indeed.
America is many, many societies. We cannot have one idea to fit all of us.
Society's "cost for you not having insurance" is a bogus and unquantifiable claim made by True Believers. We can come up with imaginary dollar figures for anything.
According to the American theory, what is best for Each trumps what is best for All. The reason? In America, we disagree about what is best, and about what the "right" society even looks like. To some, sickness and death are mere consequences that come to those who choose poor health. Who are we to grant them a "right" to circumvent natural consequences? Other cases require a great deal of casuistry to work out what the "rights" should naturally be. Forcing one vision upon the multitude, if it requires new taxes and new coercion, is tyranny indeed.
jackhp | 2:03 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
"To some, sickness and death are mere consequences that come to those who
choose poor health."
That's a lot more troubling than anything I said. Nevertheless, I don't necessarily disagree with your point about "small and local" societies. The question is, where do you draw the line? Is state level government too big? How about counties? Cities?
So, you don't want single-payer health insurance (Medicare for all) for the entire country. Okay. How about allowing states to do single-payer on their own? Or is that too much socialism for you to handle? Because, like it or not, to have a society, you're going to have to have SOME level of socialism. Where do you draw the line?
That's a lot more troubling than anything I said. Nevertheless, I don't necessarily disagree with your point about "small and local" societies. The question is, where do you draw the line? Is state level government too big? How about counties? Cities?
So, you don't want single-payer health insurance (Medicare for all) for the entire country. Okay. How about allowing states to do single-payer on their own? Or is that too much socialism for you to handle? Because, like it or not, to have a society, you're going to have to have SOME level of socialism. Where do you draw the line?
Anonymous | 2:26 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
The whiners are out. Germany had health care before Hitler. Athens was never a
true democracy only 10% of the people in Athens could vote. You also must factor
the effects of going to war with Persia had on Athens.
realitycheck | 2:41 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
well all you whiners need to look at the bright side... they took out the death
panels...
all sarcasm aside, if all you crazies out there hadn't tried to make a mountain out of a molehill, we'd have a decent health care package. But since all the wingnuts freaked out, the govt had to make a ton of changes to make you people happy....
so - happy now? your insurance company sure is..
and those of you saying you won't file the form, let them put you in jail.. you just don't get it, do you?... they won't put you in jail - but they will get the fine from you... either by taking it out of your tax return or garnishing your wages... so unless you want to hole up in some estate like those crazies that were just arrested for tax evasion, then you'll just be a lot poorer...
did you really think they would arrest you? how they going to get the fine from you if you're in jail and not working? you all are getting exactly what you asked for and now you're complaining? lol
all sarcasm aside, if all you crazies out there hadn't tried to make a mountain out of a molehill, we'd have a decent health care package. But since all the wingnuts freaked out, the govt had to make a ton of changes to make you people happy....
so - happy now? your insurance company sure is..
and those of you saying you won't file the form, let them put you in jail.. you just don't get it, do you?... they won't put you in jail - but they will get the fine from you... either by taking it out of your tax return or garnishing your wages... so unless you want to hole up in some estate like those crazies that were just arrested for tax evasion, then you'll just be a lot poorer...
did you really think they would arrest you? how they going to get the fine from you if you're in jail and not working? you all are getting exactly what you asked for and now you're complaining? lol
your kidding | 2:42 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
To Jackhp - Never in our lifetime should anybody want socialism be it a lot or a
little. Socialism takes away liberities and punishes the productives in favor of
the non-productives. it takes from those who works and gives to those who do
not. that is neither fair or equable and is certainly not according to our
inallinable rights given to us in our Constitution.
Get an education of communism and socialism before you tout its greatness - it had never worked, it only creates tyranny and oppression.
Get an education of communism and socialism before you tout its greatness - it had never worked, it only creates tyranny and oppression.
to -- lost in DC | 8:34 a.m | 2:44 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
["This approach to health care financing is wrong. It does not control
costs, just pushes cost onto future generations through all the debt it will
create."]
well, you're posting in the right place, to the right people. the same ones complaining now are the ones saying we would have death panels and all kinds of crazy stuff. so they created a huge havoc, and made the bills change to try to please everyone - and this is what you get...
if you try to please the conspiracy theorists you end up with a big bag of .... which is where we are now. congrats on a job well done...
well, you're posting in the right place, to the right people. the same ones complaining now are the ones saying we would have death panels and all kinds of crazy stuff. so they created a huge havoc, and made the bills change to try to please everyone - and this is what you get...
if you try to please the conspiracy theorists you end up with a big bag of .... which is where we are now. congrats on a job well done...
TO ---- Anonymous | 8:39 a.m | 2:47 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
see. read this guys post at 8:39am. He is EXACTLY why you now have a POS
health care reform bill. He and his kind spread all kinds of fake rumors - yes,
death panels were NEVER real but listen to this guy and you'd think the
world was falling apart.
HE is why you're about to receive a health care reform enima. so stop complaining - it looks to me like 90% of the posters on here agree with him, so you're getting EXACTLY what you asked for...
good luck with that...
HE is why you're about to receive a health care reform enima. so stop complaining - it looks to me like 90% of the posters on here agree with him, so you're getting EXACTLY what you asked for...
good luck with that...
TO - SLC gal | 10:13 a.m | 2:55 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
["SO it's perfectly fine for poor citizens, since the lower your
economic status the more likely you are to not HAVE health insurance becuase you
can't afford it, to have to pay extra taxes on being poor?
Nice!!!!"]
wow. reading disability... he said "additional 2.5 percent tax on a modified adjusted income over a certain income threshold". read that twice more, since the first time didn't sink in.... it means that the tax kicks in above a certain income level. so it doesn't even affect poor people, only people above a certain income level...
whan will you all stop trying to exagerate everything? death panels, prison for no insurance, on and on and on... YOU are why we have this fiasco in the first place - the single payer option was good - it was taken out due to all the fear-mongers making up stories of doom...
wow. reading disability... he said "additional 2.5 percent tax on a modified adjusted income over a certain income threshold". read that twice more, since the first time didn't sink in.... it means that the tax kicks in above a certain income level. so it doesn't even affect poor people, only people above a certain income level...
whan will you all stop trying to exagerate everything? death panels, prison for no insurance, on and on and on... YOU are why we have this fiasco in the first place - the single payer option was good - it was taken out due to all the fear-mongers making up stories of doom...
jackhp | 3:31 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
So, 2:42 p.m., please tell us, which of the following are you willing to give up
so that we don't have to live under the supposed evils of even a little
socialism:
Social Security
Medicare
Medicaid
CHIP
Public Education
Veterans Administration
The US Military
Police Dept.
Fire Dept.
Public Parks
Interstate Highway System
etc.
Like it or not, it's ALL socialism. We pool our money (taxes) and use governments to provide for the common good. That's socialism. Why should it be any different for health care? Why education and not health care? Why health care for anyone over 65 or the disabled but not anyone else? Why should we have a military or highways but not guaranteed access to health care? Why? What is so bad about saying we as a society value the health and life of EVERYONE and therefore we are willing to provide basic levels of health care to everyone regardless of their ability to pay?
Social Security
Medicare
Medicaid
CHIP
Public Education
Veterans Administration
The US Military
Police Dept.
Fire Dept.
Public Parks
Interstate Highway System
etc.
Like it or not, it's ALL socialism. We pool our money (taxes) and use governments to provide for the common good. That's socialism. Why should it be any different for health care? Why education and not health care? Why health care for anyone over 65 or the disabled but not anyone else? Why should we have a military or highways but not guaranteed access to health care? Why? What is so bad about saying we as a society value the health and life of EVERYONE and therefore we are willing to provide basic levels of health care to everyone regardless of their ability to pay?
Ultra Bob | 4:20 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
To your kidding | 2:42 p.m.
“Never in our lifetime should anybody want socialism be it a lot or a little. Socialism takes away liberities and punishes the productives in favor of the non-productives. it takes from those who works and gives to those who do not. that is neither fair or equable and is certainly not according to our inallinable rights given to us in our Constitution“. is simply FALSE INFORMATION.
Regardless of you conservative indoctrination, Socialism is the sharing of costs and responsibilities of living in a civilized society with other members of that society.
My favorite example is the trash service. Although there are dozens of different solutions to the need, I use the Private trash service of Wichita Kansas compared to the Salt Lake county trash service.
Recently a person in Wichita was complaining about her private enterprise trash bill of $22 per month. I checked my annual charge for trash service and found it to be $132, which works out to be $11 per month. Then there’s the waste , a different trash truck comes down the street in Wichita every day of the week. Ours only comes once per week.
“Never in our lifetime should anybody want socialism be it a lot or a little. Socialism takes away liberities and punishes the productives in favor of the non-productives. it takes from those who works and gives to those who do not. that is neither fair or equable and is certainly not according to our inallinable rights given to us in our Constitution“. is simply FALSE INFORMATION.
Regardless of you conservative indoctrination, Socialism is the sharing of costs and responsibilities of living in a civilized society with other members of that society.
My favorite example is the trash service. Although there are dozens of different solutions to the need, I use the Private trash service of Wichita Kansas compared to the Salt Lake county trash service.
Recently a person in Wichita was complaining about her private enterprise trash bill of $22 per month. I checked my annual charge for trash service and found it to be $132, which works out to be $11 per month. Then there’s the waste , a different trash truck comes down the street in Wichita every day of the week. Ours only comes once per week.
re:your kidding | 2:42 p.m. | 4:29 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
=================
Good idea,
and maybe you should turn off that AM radio of yours and do a little brushing up in those old books while you're at it.
A) Do you have a Family? Then you live under Socialism.
B) Socialism is an economic system, not a form of Government. Nowhere in the Constitution does it make mention of one economic distribution system being favored over another.
C) Socialism and Communism are NOT the same.
D) And if you really dispise Socialism and Communism so much, don't be a HYPOCRITE and buy anything made is Japan, Korea, Canada, Germany, Italy, England, France, and especially anything Made in CHINA!!!
BTW, Have fun at school.
Good idea,
and maybe you should turn off that AM radio of yours and do a little brushing up in those old books while you're at it.
A) Do you have a Family? Then you live under Socialism.
B) Socialism is an economic system, not a form of Government. Nowhere in the Constitution does it make mention of one economic distribution system being favored over another.
C) Socialism and Communism are NOT the same.
D) And if you really dispise Socialism and Communism so much, don't be a HYPOCRITE and buy anything made is Japan, Korea, Canada, Germany, Italy, England, France, and especially anything Made in CHINA!!!
BTW, Have fun at school.
An Observer | 4:52 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
LIBERALS continue to show HOW IGNORANT they really are,
by any legitmate definition of socialism:
US military is NOT SOCIALISM
police depts are NOT SOCIALISM
fire depts are NOT SOCIALISM
public parks are NOT SOCIALISM
public schools police are NOT SOCIALISM
highways are NOT SOCIALISM (and in fact funding for them it is in constitution)
families are NOT SOCIALISM
IN fact it can be argued any activity by the government that is NOT about controlling production or the means of production, controlling business, or controlling the economy IS NOT SOCIALISM!
geeeez! and liberals claim they are the educated ones.
by any legitmate definition of socialism:
US military is NOT SOCIALISM
police depts are NOT SOCIALISM
fire depts are NOT SOCIALISM
public parks are NOT SOCIALISM
public schools police are NOT SOCIALISM
highways are NOT SOCIALISM (and in fact funding for them it is in constitution)
families are NOT SOCIALISM
IN fact it can be argued any activity by the government that is NOT about controlling production or the means of production, controlling business, or controlling the economy IS NOT SOCIALISM!
geeeez! and liberals claim they are the educated ones.
Why Socialism always fails! | 5:02 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never
failed a single student before, but had once failed an entire class.
That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan". All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A. After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little. The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. The scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of others.
That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan". All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A. After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little. The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. The scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of others.
jackhp | 5:05 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
"IN fact it can be argued any activity by the government that is NOT about
controlling production or the means of production, controlling business, or
controlling the economy IS NOT SOCIALISM!"
Great, providing access to health care isn't socialism in the same way providing access to public education for everyone isn't socialism. I'm glad we agree.
Great, providing access to health care isn't socialism in the same way providing access to public education for everyone isn't socialism. I'm glad we agree.
Anonymous | 5:11 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
Slavery was part of capitalism, has were sweats shops and child labor.
Funny, as a soldier I saw many comparisons with the then Soviet Union and the army I served in. Then, if you went in to a PX you had a choice of goods that was very limited compared with live in the real world. You movies where three years old. You had to stand in line for everything. You had to have permission from the government to do anything.
You sure learned to value the civilian life you left.
Yes, I claim to be educated on this because I was there once.
Funny, as a soldier I saw many comparisons with the then Soviet Union and the army I served in. Then, if you went in to a PX you had a choice of goods that was very limited compared with live in the real world. You movies where three years old. You had to stand in line for everything. You had to have permission from the government to do anything.
You sure learned to value the civilian life you left.
Yes, I claim to be educated on this because I was there once.
to: An Observer | 4:52 p.m. | 5:17 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
An Observer | 4:52 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
LIBERALS continue to show HOW IGNORANT they really are, by any legitmate definition of socialism:
US military is NOT SOCIALISM
=====================
Stop!, right there.....
The US militray is 100% socialism.
Show me one example a soldier being a greedy, self serving, Capitalist?
All dress is the same
All haircuts are the same
All food is the same
All living quarters is the same
All pay is the same
No one is treated any better or worse than anoyone else other.
It wasn't the best, it wasn't the worst --
but we ALL had "sufficent for our needs".
I loved it!
I'm PROUD of it!!!
We were Brothers is a sense NONE of you civilians will ever understand.
Semper Fi
No one (dead or alive) gets left behind! EVER!!!
I'm liberal, I'm a Vet, and I'm an AMERICAN!
[BTW, Happy Veterans Day]
........
LIBERALS continue to show HOW IGNORANT they really are, by any legitmate definition of socialism:
US military is NOT SOCIALISM
=====================
Stop!, right there.....
The US militray is 100% socialism.
Show me one example a soldier being a greedy, self serving, Capitalist?
All dress is the same
All haircuts are the same
All food is the same
All living quarters is the same
All pay is the same
No one is treated any better or worse than anoyone else other.
It wasn't the best, it wasn't the worst --
but we ALL had "sufficent for our needs".
I loved it!
I'm PROUD of it!!!
We were Brothers is a sense NONE of you civilians will ever understand.
Semper Fi
No one (dead or alive) gets left behind! EVER!!!
I'm liberal, I'm a Vet, and I'm an AMERICAN!
[BTW, Happy Veterans Day]
........
re -- An Observer | 4:52 p.m | 5:33 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
["any activity by the government that is NOT about controlling production
or the means of production, controlling business, or controlling the economy IS
NOT SOCIALISM"]
go back to school - you get an F. socialism isn't about control - it is about allocations.
read and learn. you must be a republican...
go back to school - you get an F. socialism isn't about control - it is about allocations.
read and learn. you must be a republican...
Anonymous | 6:51 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
To "re:your kidding | 2:42 p.m. | 4:29 p.m. " um I hate to break it to
you, but a family is not socialism unless you have done the following;
Put your kids names on your home title
Put your kids names on your car title
Your kids have equal access as you to the money you earn
Your children have 100% the same rules as you do
Any money your children earn is put into your communal bank account.
Actually, socialism is a form of government. Socialism requres government control of the means of production. You can't have government control if socialism isn't a form of government.
You are right, socialism and capitalism are not the exact same, but their differences are small. they both lead to a destruction of the human spirit.
Put your kids names on your home title
Put your kids names on your car title
Your kids have equal access as you to the money you earn
Your children have 100% the same rules as you do
Any money your children earn is put into your communal bank account.
Actually, socialism is a form of government. Socialism requres government control of the means of production. You can't have government control if socialism isn't a form of government.
You are right, socialism and capitalism are not the exact same, but their differences are small. they both lead to a destruction of the human spirit.
Ultra Bob | 6:58 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
To Why Socialism always fails! | 5:02 p.m.
An interesting fairy tale, but a complete lie.
Why can’t conservatives actually use real things to argue their beliefs.
An interesting fairy tale, but a complete lie.
Why can’t conservatives actually use real things to argue their beliefs.
RedShirt | 7:11 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
To "jackhp | 3:31 p.m. " those things that you list are not socialism.
Socialism is not pooling "our money (taxes) and use governments to provide
for the common good." According to Merrium-Webster socialism is defined
as:
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
Other than CHIP, everything else is not a means of production. Some of those services such as Medicare and SS could be considered communism, not socialism.
If you take the term Socialism out of the picture. Which of those services are constitutional, that is the bigger question.
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
Other than CHIP, everything else is not a means of production. Some of those services such as Medicare and SS could be considered communism, not socialism.
If you take the term Socialism out of the picture. Which of those services are constitutional, that is the bigger question.
to:Anonymous | 6:51 p.m. | 7:26 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009
Wrong, you get an - "F"
Socialism does not invoke ownership to the State.
That is Communism.
Please read a book about it.
Meanwhile, Socialism involves Government over-seeing [not "owning"]-- due to Corporate Greed, profits and exploitation being put ahead of "people" who produce.
That is the proper role of Government - to referee.
Stay out of the way as much as possilbe, keep a carfeul eye out, and let the players play and let the game run by itself.
But if rules get broken, if there is cheating, if some could get hurt or injured, or things get out of control -- blow the whistle, throw a flag, call time out.
Give a penatly to those who didn't play fairly [or throw them out of the game if need be].
And run the play again.
Make as many points as possilbe, so long as your play fair and square.
Sometimes, the League may need to tweek the rules from time to time to keep the game running as it should.
Call me a Simpleton if you must, but the role of Government is really not much more complex than that.
Socialism does not invoke ownership to the State.
That is Communism.
Please read a book about it.
Meanwhile, Socialism involves Government over-seeing [not "owning"]-- due to Corporate Greed, profits and exploitation being put ahead of "people" who produce.
That is the proper role of Government - to referee.
Stay out of the way as much as possilbe, keep a carfeul eye out, and let the players play and let the game run by itself.
But if rules get broken, if there is cheating, if some could get hurt or injured, or things get out of control -- blow the whistle, throw a flag, call time out.
Give a penatly to those who didn't play fairly [or throw them out of the game if need be].
And run the play again.
Make as many points as possilbe, so long as your play fair and square.
Sometimes, the League may need to tweek the rules from time to time to keep the game running as it should.
Call me a Simpleton if you must, but the role of Government is really not much more complex than that.
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