Deseret News | Cougars weren't angels

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Readers' forum: Cougars weren't angels

Davis | 5:38 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009

BYU is the home of hypocrites... so what else is new?

@Gloria | 6:08 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009

Based upon your letter, it is obvious you have never played soccer. It is a physical sport. The actions of Ms. Lambert were so far off, that nobody is defending her. You may be ignorant about the sport or you may just have to express your hatred of Mormons in a veil manner. I don't know which it is.

Goes to show | 7:25 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009

How ignorant you are about soccer. Like anyother sport there is contact, especially when trying to get in position for set pieces. Lambert started pushing, so Payne used her elbow to say "knock it off, I'm here already." It happens all the time, its not like Payne wound up and threw an elbow to the face. Not a big deal until Lambert retaliates. Say what you will, New Mexico was definitely the aggressor in that game.

Comments continue below

Jim Dandy | 8:13 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009

Finally, someone else speaks up.
BYU players certainly initiated a lot of that.

Get a grip! | 8:32 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009

Nobody said BYU players are angels. But agressive play and even contact and even elbows are not illegal in soccer? They are just part of the game!

Punches and pulling someone down by their hair... not OK.

Re: Goes to show | 8:52 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009

I think you are the one who's ignorant about soccer. I played my entire life, including four years of NCAA-D1 college ball. I thought I'd experienced every kind of foul there was, but I've never once been elbowed intentionally in a game. It doesn't "happen all the time."

I've had plenty of players push me to get me out of their space, and I've pushed plenty of them for the same reason. This was the first time I've seen an elbow thrown (even if it was a pretty soft elbow).

The letter writer is right on. BYU is not without blame in this incident, but the UNM player was way out of line. I'd like to hear what the ref has to say about not taking action against her sooner (as she committed, by my count, 5 straight red-type offenses in that match), and why her coach didn't sit her earlier.

Dear Gloria... | 9:00 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009

Your letter shows an appalling lack of knowledge about what "crossing the line" means in sports. Soccer enthusiasts from across the nation will attest that Ms. Lambert's actions were indefensible.

This leads me to suspect that the purpose of your letter was to either denigrate BYU, or to vicariously find fault with the LDS Church by accusing the BYU soccer players of being hypocrites. The fact that one poster (Davis) has piggy-backed onto this theme adds credence to this being a possibility.

The UNM took quick action on Lambert because her actions were so egregious. The only fault I have heard leveled at the BYU players by soccer experts at ESPN, CNN, and the MWC is a disbelief that the BYU players allowed Ms. Lambert's play--especially the ponytail pulling event--to occur without them dishing out retaliation against her on the field to protect their teammates.

Sadly, much of this could have been avoided had the UNM coaches pulled Lambert, or if the referees had properly done their jobs and red-carded her!

Your letter is either naive or you saw an opportunity to take a swipe at BYU and/or the LDS Church.

What I want to know... | 9:02 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009

...is where were the officials while all this garbage was going on? They are the ones that need to be booted out of soccer for allowing the junk to take place.

Anonymous | 9:15 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009

the punch in the back wasn't too bad, but the hair pull is way over the line, even though she was grabbing her shorts. It doesn't justify it. That's like putting your knee to a guys crotch just because he tugged on your jersey in basketball.
Don't forget about the blatant fist to the face by Lambert against Payne later in the video. Lambert was a headhunter.

Flop | 9:22 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009

It was a light tug on the ponytail. The BYU player flopped. They do it in every sport.

peperlake | 9:30 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009

Gees, would everyone quit persecuting mormons!!!!!

(for those knee jerkers out there, this comment is sarcasm)

re: Davis | 9:41 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009

So true. They should change the mascot....

Anonymous | 9:43 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009

Gloria has probably never set foot on a soccer field.

poster at 6:08 | 9:59 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009

is right. Gloria is probably just another liberal who goes around to any post that could be affiliated with the Mormons and finds a way to say something negative.

Not necessarily a flop | 10:14 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009

Anyone will fall if pulled straight down from the back of the head.

It doesn't seem possible but it works. It's a standard technique from some martial arts styles

Anonymous | 10:40 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009

Utah Mormons are conservative. Conservative love to dodge the issue of personal accountability. They blame liberals like a delinquent child blames the kid down the street.

Ghost Rider | 11:22 a.m. Nov. 11, 2009

It appears there are only a couple of people on this posting that even understand the nature of soccer. For the one individual who said he/she played at the D1 level and never took an elbow or push, you played in a weak league. This type of play goes on all of the time on the field. Take a camera to your next game and scan the field and you will see shorts being pulled and a few elbows. If this is not your experience then you have not played at the upper levels. The action of the New Mexico player was over the line. Being able to control your emotions at this level is part of the game. If you resort to the type of action seen in these films by the UNM player then you have taken yourself out of the game. It should also be noted that many coaches encourage some of their defensive players to push the limit when they are trying to take the opposition out of their game as well. This is sports in general and soccer specifically. This play had to be stopped and the player sanctioned.

Anonymous | 12:00 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009

I am not condoning what the UNM player did.

However, it doesn't surprise me the the BYU player was being verbally instigating the whole thing.

I love how BYU athletes bait a situation and then rely on the whole perception that there is no way a BYU player could do that; we are as pure as new fallen snow just ask us we'll tell you so.

To "8:52 a.m." | 12:19 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009

8:52 a.m.

If you've never in your life been pushed back by and elbow... You've never crowded someone from behind who knows they need to get away from you or at least keep you where they know THEY can get the ball and keep you from stepping in front of them and stealing it.

If you get on someone's back and stay there, eventually you're going to feel an elbow.

Big deal | 12:25 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009

Sports gives competitors an huge adrenaline rush. Granted and agreed that pulling hair was wrong, but the BYU player is no innocent. There are individual battles going on in every team sport.
This probably happens a lot worldwide. Sports are rough.
Things will happen.
If you want to avoid elbows, flailing arms, kicks to the shins, stay home and knit.
Maybe the BYU gal will learn to keep her elbows a little closer.
This was a good lesson for the players and everyone who has seen it.

Lia

Oppressed! | 12:25 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009

Christians: 75% of the population
Everyone else: 25%

Mormons in Utah: 60% of the population
Everyone else: 40%

Everyone else: "Can our morals, opinions, and lifestyles enjoy equal rights, please?"
Christians/Mormons: "Help! We're being oppressed!"

Radical Moderate | 12:41 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009

First: I agree. The response of the New Mexico player was over the line. However, the posts on this thread are also over the line. Do not criticize BYU players or you must be anti-Mormon? Justifying "dirty" play as "just a part of the game?" I'm thinking that if the play of the team needs to be rationalized and that if the goal of the play is to provoke the other team into violence, perhaps a religious school might want to rethink its participation in this sport. And to the "you must be anti-Mormon" naysayers, yes indeed, I am Mormon. And I am appalled at the rationalizations on this thread.

K2 | 1:36 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009

I too, viewed the provacations of the BYU players and am already aware how soccer players across the world love to fall like a sack of potatoes when in close physical contact. It really equates to "Church Ball" and one can see how it easily escalated to Ms. Lambert being told to leave. The BYU players were (for some reason/s) were playing "Church Ball". Have we got to the crux of the problem as to why this was going on? Is it the history of games between these two teams, something that was done early on, or just what? Review any films, talk to the players and coaches rather than have it blow over only to have it come up again in future matches. Are you listening Tom Holmoe?

Gloria Stoner, Midway | 2:00 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009

I am the author of this letter. I wrote it in order to point out some things that I noticed when I watched the video replays of the game and which those who have commented on the game and Ms. Lambert's behavior apparently did not notice.

First, I consider myself a very good member of the LDS Church. I have been a member all my life and attend church regularly. Two of my children have graduated from BYU.

Second, no one I know who actually has seen the YouTube videos has come away believing the BYU girls are completely innocent. Clearly, they provoked Ms. Lambert. And, I should add, no one making a comment here has said they have watched the video replays and still believe the BYU girls are completely innocent. Please review the videos and explain if and why you disagree.

Third, as I mentioned in my letter, I do not condone Ms. Lambert of New Mexico. What she did was wrong. However, as was the point of my letter, it seems equally clear that the BYU girls were not without fault.

Enough said.

To editor | 2:00 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009

How can my comment not get posted when you are allowing comments to be posted that are nothing more than religion bashing and has nothing to do with the article (ie Oppressed! @ 12:25)? You must be a Ute fan.

Greg | 2:01 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009

Is anybody really stupid enough to believe anything they read on this comment site? What a pile of garbage this is. Shame on you all.

of course | 2:10 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009

(Translation)= No matter what happens, it is always BYU's fault. Mormons are always the bad guys and gals and earn all hatred, bad sportsmanship pointed their way.

Same old drivel every day.

@ Ms. Stoner | 3:04 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009

Your clarification post, along with your letter that was published, makes me perceive that you don't understand competition in the sports world. Nothing the BYU players did warranted Ms. Lambert's behavior.

Soccer is not a no-contact sport. Jockeying for position takes place, as does pushing and shoving, hand-checking, soft-elbows to communicate, "Get off my back," etc. You seemed to imply the BYU players should be asked to share Ms. Lambert's shame and are somehow responsible for her behavior. This suggestion is ludicrous.

Ms. Lambert crossed the line. Her actions endangered players and were worthy of ejection from the game. The people culpable in her behavior are her coaches for allowing her to remain in the game, and the referees for not ejecting her.

Your line of reasoning infers that people can respond any way they want if someone provokes them. Believe that Ms. Lambert was also pulling jerseys, pushing, shoving, scratching, etc. We only saw the worst of her behavior on the YouTube highlight clips.

The BYU players are in no way responsible for Ms. Lambert's inability to control her unsportsmanlike play.

Mike | 3:22 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009

I watched the game on BYU TV and saw that there was some questionable play coming from both sides. That said, the New Mexico chick looked like she was out head hunting. She was the agressor and the instigator. By the way, my video was better than YouTube.

to Gloria | 4:02 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009

On the contrary, I'll bet most of the posters have watched the video. I have watched it numerous times and still completely disagree with you, for a number of reasons.

You don't believe Lambert would have responded the way she did without provocation, right? So why do you so readily believe the BYU girls acted without provocation? How do you know Lambert wasn't grabbing a handful of shorts or skin before the elbow? My point is that the BYU players' actions were within the bounds of sportsmanship (or has every sportscaster in the nation conveniently forgotten that as they showed this clip?) while Lambert's were clearly not. It doesn't matter who starts it; it matters how you end it.

Soccer players are not expected to be angels. They are expected to push, shove, and use body parts to assert position as well as to keep track of nearby opponents. The girl never looked back when she threw the elbow. She had no maniacal expression on her face, as though she were being malicious. She was playing the game.

Jenny | 4:15 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009

I watched the video and I too seen the elbow and felt the player NM player reacted to the elbow. Of course she continued her anger throughout but yes she was provoked which is also part of the sport. BYU students are not saints, they are humans and too often are held up as idols of purity but sad to say we are not all duped. Yep I'm mormon but not Utah Mormon and there is a difference big time

janana | 8:18 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009

It's soccer. Why does everyone have to make everything a religion issue?

Gary | 8:45 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009

I was very interested in Ms. Stoner's comments.
I thought she expressed herself very well.
Just a thought or two: Not all BYU players (in any sport) are squeaky clean, good sports. Not all New Mexico players (in any sport) are dirty. Not all Mormons are fun to play with or against. Not all Non-Mormons are fun to play with or against.
People are people. Things happen. Religion, or the lack thereof, has nothing to do with it. Ms. Lambert was over the line. I'm sure there were a few shots from BYU players as well. It's a stupid game. People's common sense goes out the window. Happens in "Church Ball" every night of the week, except Sunday and Monday.
It's over. Too bad it happened. Let's talk about something else.

To Re: Goes to show | 9:05 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009

What sport did you play? Golf?

If anyone is complaining about the physicality of BYU's play they are completely ignorant to the world of competitive soccer.

Idahoan | 9:12 p.m. Nov. 11, 2009

I don't like the elbow being thrown. I have never played competitive soccer to know if throwing elbows is common. Others claim it is. However, the elbow throwing was not a "sharp" blow as the letter writer states. The punch in the back was worse than the elbow. From what I saw on the clip, BYU played aggressively. It was not malicious or dirty.

How can someone claim the fall from the hair pulling was a flop? The gal used both hands in her actions. Now I couldn't tell if both hands pulled. One hand did appear to possibly be pushing the body while the other hand pulled. That does not sound or appear like a light tug. It looked like a hard yank.

I can't believe some are trying to justify or lessen the New Mexico player's actions. No matter who the opponent or player, what happened is wrong. I would want punishment for a player from my favorite team if that player did what Lambert did.

S2 | 1:06 a.m. Nov. 14, 2009

Obviously, no one here saw the game, or witnessed any real provacative behavior by BYU players. The author is just looking for an angle to vent criticism, and like many, shoots off without real facts. More emotion from a need to show overt compassion...

The BYU team did aggressively make hard contact with UNM's goalie earlier in the match. Fully in sight of the referees, and no players were sent off. Ms Lambert took the play as a personal offence and set out to compensate for her own lack of talent, position and skills by playing the harpie of vengeance. Her letter of apology was full of normal platitudes for our day and age - despite what her insincere letter attempted to portray, her character was fully in view on the field, and her lack of sportsmanship and decency was fully characterized.

She deserves whatever level of derision she gets - she is neither much of a sportsman, of good character, or deserving to represent her school in a sports uniform.

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