Deseret News | Words are idiotic

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Readers' forum: Words are idiotic

Timj | 4:16 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

It's kind of like "law-abiding" and "Utah driver."

Mike Richards | 6:21 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

I think that only a narrow-minded bigot would not consider that a person who enters this country illegally could still be "law-abiding" in the way that he lives. He could still honor our laws and our customs. He could still pay taxes. He could still drive the speed limit and have auto insurance. He could still pay for his children's education. He could still be a good and honest and productive member of society, even though his entry into the country was illegal.

also | 6:48 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

What is also idiotic is the govt. Bush/Obama telling us they are doing everything possible about national security problems, except closing the border. Hmmmm?

Comments continue below

Anonymous | 7:19 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

So is Fox mainstream or alternative media? You would do well to ignore it.

Anonymous | 7:28 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

the modern-day Goebbells (Limbaugh, Beck, Fox) has this guy too.

Ernest T. Bass | 7:59 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

Another republican bigot maybe?

Knowwhat | 8:12 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

To: Mike Richards, irregardless of his life in the general he is still living a lie and is a criminal based on US law. How is a person who obeys the law and enters legally a narrow-minded-bigot. If a person kills someone and never gets caught but goes on to live a normal productive life, is he still not a murderer?

20/20 | 8:19 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

Mike, your fantasy is commendable, but deplorable. My wife runs a payroll service, and sees hundreds of illegals and how they "pay taxes":
1) One "barely legal" employee is used to cover five or six illegals. Have you ever heard of a house-painter making $8,000 per week? Of course not, but when Jesus cashes his check and divides it with his buddies, the wages make more sense.
2) The second strategy is declare 99 exemptions, ensuring that no federal and state taxes are withheld. This is done by every Hispanic in our payroll database. 100%. This is a technique obviously "publicized" in the illegal community - how else can you explain the data?
In plain English, the illegals intentionally cheat on employment law and tax withholding.
Tell us again, in the face of facts, how these folks are "law-abiding", "honoring our laws", and "still pay taxes".
Pull on my heart strings all you want, but do not use falsehoods to bolster an already pathetic argument.

Anonymous | 8:58 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

Yes, law-breakers are law-breakers, nothing more need be said. People who don't respect the law have no place in our American society. It's time we instituted the death penalty for jaywalking.

to:Timj | 4:16 a.m. | 9:15 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

It's kind of like "law-abiding" and "Utah driver."

=============

Haha!

Beautiful -- thanks Timj, that made my day!!!

..

anonymous | 9:17 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

Knowwhat....go look up the word irregardless in the dictionary (Meriam Webster) and you will find "Use regardless instead".

re: Mike Richards | 6:21 a.m. | 9:18 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

"I think that only a narrow-minded bigot would not consider that a person who enters this country illegally could still be "law-abiding" in the way that he lives."

You just proved the letter writers point - one cannot be "illegal" and "law-abiding" at the same time - rather than deal with that reality, the intolerant simplty call anyone who notices the discrpancy a bigot: classic left wing passive aggression
Mike and Ernest should take a good long look in the mirror.

#12 Point of Fascism in U.S. | 9:29 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment: Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations
Citizens who have done no more than criticize George W. Bush president were being banned from airline flights, harassed at airports’, strip searched, roughed up and even imprisoned
The 10 most outrageous civil liberties violations of 2006
The United States has now become the world leader in its rate of incarceration, locking up its citizens at 5-8 times the rate of other industrialized nations.
American Gestapo is here: "There is hereby created and established a permanent police force, to be known as the 'United States Secret Service Uniformed Division.'"
America: secret jails, secret courts, secret arrests, and now secret laws created under the Bush Administration.
Snitch-or-Go-to-Jail bill made it pretty much anything short of reporting on everyone you see for doing just about anything a jailable offense. With minimum sentences, up to and including life without parole.

Sterling | 9:33 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

Interesting insight "20/20". I live right in the midst of LOTS of illegals, and here's what I see: lots of underage beer purchases coming out of the mexican markets, (if those guys are 21, I'm 150!). The cops pretty much give them a pass on most everything unless its a felony, (they don't want to bridge the language barrier)as does city zoning. 5 families to a house! When I see them in smiths, they use WIC, food stamps, and actually pay for the BEER!
Bottom line: there's a whole different set of "rules" for illegals than the rest of us.
What I don't understand is why, if folks want them to be here taking our jobs, why they don't they just go to the mexican consulate and "sponsor" one. That way, if the person gets arrested, can't support themselves, etc., the SPONSOR can pay FOR THEIR PROBLEMS NOT THE REST OF US!

This problem is FAR WORSE than anyone is alluding to!

its happening again | 9:53 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

The Nazis also passed laws against the scapegoated Jews making it legal to pick them up.
Substitute Illegal Mexicans for Jews and you have the same thing happening today.

Mike Richards | 10:08 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

Well, let's all get together in about 100 years and see just how many of us "illegals" were redeemed because we FINALLY decided to be "law-abiding" to Christ's laws. If any of you have Bibles, you might save yourselves an ulcer and read how the workers were paid who were hired at different hours of the day.

Although I think that everyone who wants to live and work in Amierica needs to enter the country legally, I'm not going to throw stones at those who entered illegally. On a public forum, I tell them to go home and then enter legally. On a personal basis, I put my arm around them and council them to do the right thing and talk to the immigration authorities, even if that means that they have to leave the country. Some that I've talked to have decided to do the right thing, others have not. In either case, I didn't throw stones at them.

I'm not going to belittle others because they're not perfect in all things. The most perfect person who ever lived, doesn't throw stones at the illegals.

Anonymous | 10:16 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

It is more than obvious that the News writer was trying to distinguish between illegal immigrants who otherwise obey our laws verses illegal immigrants who show no concern for any of our laws.

It is sort of sad to see nit-picking criticism like this commentary. Let’s all squint a little harder to find something to blow out of proportion and whine about - shall we?

@20/20 | 10:16 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

Where do you get your info? You are so wrong it borders on the ignorant. They can't cheat on their taxes any more that the guy that employs them can cheat. Their are plenty of regulations and laws in place that make it virtually impossible to cheat on these laws. The employer won't get a check from the job until he proves certain things.

Anonymous | 10:38 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

Illegal immigrants are viewed by the Right the same way the 3rd Reich viewed the Jews, The Gays, The Feminists.
Somebody that's outside their little box.

RedShirt | 10:40 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

To "#12 Point of Fascism in U.S. | 9:29 a.m." you said that "12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment: Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations."

You then went on the complain about Bush. Answer this, what has changed under Obama? Do we still have the watch lists for the airlines? You complain about Bushing setting up a facist police force, yet do not recognize that Obama has not dismantled any of that.

Also, you may have missed Obama's speech in July 2008 where he said that he wanted a civilian national security force equal to the military in strength. Why would he want or need something like that? Who is the threat that Obama sees out there that would require a civilian national security force to defeat?

#3 Point of Fascism in U.S. | 10:46 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

#3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause: The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Congressman: Muslims 'enemy amongst us'
SB 24, Ohio law to muzzle "liberals"
Former U.S. Sen. Rick Santorum has joined a conservative Washington think tank, where he will found and direct a program called "America's Enemies."
Sean Hannity creates weekly "Enemy of the State" segment on his new program
Fox radio hosts suggests putting liberal commentators and activists in concentration camps.
World history textbook used by seventh-graders at Scottsdale’s Mohave Middle School was pulled from classrooms mid-semester amid growing right criticism of the book’s unbiased portrayal of Islam
Rallies planned against 'Islamofacism': Event to 'unify all Americans behind common goal'

Not quite the same | 11:04 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

@9:53 a.m. Putting people on a bus to go home is not quite the same as the Holocaust! Poor analogy.

With todays unemployment numbers just released, its hard to understand why ANYONE would want to give away jobs that LEGALLY could and should be going to Americans.

The importtant word here is LEGAL!! That is the small batch of rules we have agreed to live by as we conduct our lives.

True, they're not REALLY THAT IMPORTANT to some people!

Hmm | 11:08 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

And our modern day Savior, Obama, telling us that he's going to lead us to the Promised Land. Idiotic to believe that, or even vote for it.

@its happening again | 11:09 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

No one has passed any laws against illegal Mexicans. The laws apply to everyone and were in place long before the recent wave of illegal immigration from Mexico began.

The only difference is that the illegal Mexicans are far more likely to break the immigration laws than those from other countries.

RedShirt | 11:26 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

To "#3 Point of Fascism in U.S. | 10:46 a.m." ok you said that "#3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause: The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc. "

Under Obama we have the following scape goats set up by Obama:

The wealthy businessmen (or just wealthy in general)
Rush Limbaugh
Glenn Beck
Conservatives
Fox News
Anybody who disagrees with him

So far, no difference between Obama and Bush, and the 13 points of fascism.

Fascism sign #12 | 11:28 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

Police officers don't have to give a reason at the time they arrest someone, the Supreme Court said in a ruling that shields officers from fals-arrest lawsuits.
Dozens of private security companies are given police powers by the state of North Carolina - part of a growing pattern in the U.S.
Newt Gingrich said freedom of speech be re-examined to meet the threat of terrorism.
Documents show more pentagon spying on peace activists.
Bush signed into law a provision which removes posse comitatus that will encourage the President to declare martial law.
Judge rules it's okay for cops to lie on search/arrest warrant applications.
Under the Bush Administration the House passed warrantless domestic spying measure. 9-29

anonymous again | 11:44 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

Are we treating illegal aliens the same as the Nazis treated Jews? I really don't think we can go there on this one folks, come up with another comparison, that one aint getting it done....

re: not the same 11:04 | 11:54 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

"Putting people on a bus to go home is not quite the same as the Holocaust!"
It started SLOWLY when groups were singled out and scapegoated. Then as the economy worsened, so did the hatred for those "bad" groups ie, Gays, slavs, Jews ...
All supported by law.

interesting | 11:56 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

scapegoating the right is not fascist but scapegoating the Mexicans is...invoking Nazi Germany is out of line when referring to the left"s leadership and demonization of the wealthy and the bible toting and gun toting regular citizens, but it is not only acceptable but taking the moral high road to compare anyone who has a beef with illegals to Nazis. And to Timj...how simple are we supposed to be to fall for your argument? If Utah drivers are as bad as you say (and they may be), in what way does that legitimize the illegal aliens raising their children to believe the U.S. laws are only to be obeyed if you are getting what you want (such as a job you obtained illegally, or other benefits meant for citizens and used or abused by so many non- citizens)?

Exactly like the 3rd Reich did | 12:33 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

The Right is easily rallied (as during the 3rd Reich)into a unified frenzy to eliminate a perceived common threat (gays and illegal immigrants)

Here's what the Right are saying today:
"BLOW THE WHISTLE ON ANTI-AMERICANISM!
LIBERALS, GAYS, MUSLIMS, ILLEGALS, UNION OFFICERS ... REPORT THEM ALL!
Visit your Homeland Security Office TODAY!

lost in DC | 12:48 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

Mike, when you say they can be here illegaly and still law abiding, the term "just a little pregnant" comes to mind. you are either legal or illegal, just as you are either pregnant or you're not.

as far as redemption, I know of a certin religeon that teaches something about honoring and obeying the law, and didn't Christ say something about rendering unto Ceasar?

Now, if you want to talk about whether or not the illegal aliens are good people, I'm sure many of them are. but that doesn't give them license to violate the law.

Read History Conservatives | 12:50 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

Among the first victims of persecution in Nazi Germany were political opponents--primarily Communists, Social Democrats, and trade unionists.

The Nazis persecuted those they considered to be racially inferior. Nazi racial ideology primarily vilified Jews, but also propagated hatred for Roma (Gypsies) and blacks.

===================

You guys on the far-reich scare me more than anyone else in the world....

Re "@20/20 | 10:16 a.m." | 1:09 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

@20/20 | 10:16 a.m.

Is working without witholding taxes legal?

So how does someone who doesn't HAVE a Social Security Number have taxes witheld? Is that legal?

They MUST have a SS# to work. IF they have a SS# they have broken yet another law and committed fraud to get it.

There's just no legal way to do this!

re: lost in DC | 1:13 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

that doesn't give them (illegal immigrants)license to violate the law.

Look up and study:
#3 Indentification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a unifying cause
#12 Obsession with Crime and Punishment
from the 14 Points of Fascism.

re: Mike Richards | 10:08 a.m. | 1:17 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

"I'm not going to belittle others because they're not perfect in all things. The most perfect person who ever lived, doesn't throw stones at the illegals"

So calling anyone who disagrees with you a "bigot" does not constitute "belittling?

not buying it

re: Read History Conservatives | | 1:24 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

better yet, read history AND George Orwell - all his villains were liberals, but the left is too busy playing the victim to notice lol

RedShirt | 1:29 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

TO "Fascism sign #12 | 11:28 a.m. " you have yet to answer the question, what has changed under Obama?

See the NY Times article "Privacy may be a victim in cyberdefense plan". Rather than listen on the phone, you get all your emails read.

I guess Obama is as much or more of a fascist as Bush.

RedShirt | 1:35 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

TO "Read History Conservatives | 12:50 p.m." what is funny is that you don't realize that Obama is doing the same. You said that "Among the first victims of persecution in Nazi Germany were political opponents".

Lets look at Obama's first 10 months in office. He persecuted Rush Limbaugh. He since has added to is political enemies, and now attacks Glenn Beck and Fox news. He uses the media to vilify the Tea Party goers. He uses his race to propogate hate for anybody that opposes his plans.

Wake up, the march to socialism or fascism or whatever you want to call the government takeover of our lives didn't end at the election of Obama. If anything it has accelerated with the election of Obama.

to 1:17 | 1:58 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

No one is throwing stones at law breakers. They just need and want them to go home.

@20/20again | 2:13 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

They cannot work w/o a ss card. So, they go and purchase one for around $25, then they work and pay taxes and pay into ss. This is why the govt. doesn't care if they are here ilegally or have an illegal ss #. The govt. has busted the ss program and every other welfare program out there. They need the money! They will do nothing to curb the flow of illegals when the same illegals are help pay the wealfare bill. It makes the politicians look good and get re-elected. But its bad for the economy in the long run, because it costs more to give them welfare than they are putting into the system.

Frustrated | 2:16 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

I want to be a subscriber to the Deseret News, but will not be so long as it has a liberal editorial staff, highly untypical of this State.

I will not pay to hear my values attacked and belittled and to witness constant rationalisations favoring the growth of taxes and government power.

I want someone to represent conservative Utahns, somebody FROM Utah and a staff writer. It is not good enough just to have syndicated columninsts from elsewhere.

re: to 1:17 | 3:06 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

Neocons like RedShirt forget how the Nazis wanted the Jews, the gays, the slavs, to "go home" too.
The power of far-Right scapegoating worked wonders for the 3rd Reich.

The Facts | 3:07 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

Illegal immigrants pay Social Security taxes to the tune of $9 BILLION/yr. They also pay sales tax, disability and workmans comp. There are many who are hard-working and except for their illegal immigration, law-abiding.

How many of us would sneak into Canada if our children's future in the U.S. was working in a dangerous mine instead of going to school? or living in a tin shack? or living in a community entrenched in drug wars?

That said, we need to have a better immigration policy. We need to be able to control who comes into our country.

These voters are evil | 3:39 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

its happening again | 9:53 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

"The Nazis also passed laws against the scapegoated Jews making it legal to pick them up."

You can't convince these people that they are Nazi's and that their Nazi-like tactics violate the rights of both immigrants and Americans who would associate with them. They don't understand that some laws are immoral, evil and violate the rights of others and no one has to obey those laws.

It was illegal to help blacks to escape slavery and segregation was legal and yet the law-abiding people who refused to sit at the back of buses, eat at different restaurants or to return slaves to their masters were law abiding people while those who wrote these bigoted laws were the scum of the earth.

"Substitute Illegal Mexicans for Jews and you have the same thing happening today."

Why should someone who wants to come here, move in with their family and work for a living need the damn permission of these busy-bodies. My wife still has to wait several years even before her parents can move here because she can't get permission. It's evil.

Anonymous | 4:47 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

YOu know when liberals start using words like "NAZI",

they have lost the argument.

HOW TERRIBLE conservatives are for desiring people to follow the law,

or to expect any current law to be enforced.

extremists in our midst | 4:52 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

There is no doubt in my mind that there are those political factions today that would not hesitate putting on trench coats, carrying concealed weapons, and start paying midnight visits to illegal immigrants homes to cart them off in the night.
All they need is bad economic times, a scapegoat or two, and a leader to pass the horrendous laws to carry out the orders.

Re; Mike Richards | 6:09 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

Must be confusing to live inside your head......I guess if someone commits murder, then they are considered law-abiding in your head, so long as they never break the law again......You must be a "LUNATIC LEFTY"...

Illegals...you are not law abiding so long as you are here in AMERICA Illegally...GO HOME!!

mark | 8:53 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

Wow, never thought I would read Mike Richards and lefty in the same sentence.
But if I may be so bold, Mike, as to assume to speak for you, it seems your stance has more of a religious basis then political.
Your stance, to me, would seem to be getting very close to true Christianity.

mark | 9:05 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

What do you think Jesus would think about this argument? Do you think he would be concerned with national borders? I don't know much about the bible, but I would think he would say something about everyone being God's children, maybe he would even say something about welcoming strangers into your home. But maybe those are outdated ideas, not fit for times such as these. Oh well, carry on.

Jim | 8:19 p.m. Nov. 7, 2009

I actual agree with Mike Richard's on this one!!!!!

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