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Readers' forum: Feminism necessary
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Salary differences? | 1:00 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
I supervise and hire several employees for a large chemical firm. I have hired
several females who after expensive training and investments, decide to leave
and go have children. Don't missunderstand me, I applaud their choice as my
own wife did the same thing! I have a few other female emploees who have stayed
on and have worked their way up the salary scale just like our male employees.
If salaries of women are lower on average than men, it is likely because of
longevity differences! Feminism isn't the answer, families are and I for
one am indebted to my wife who chose our family over a career! If other women
don't, I do not believe they are held back as the author claims on a gender
bias!
Masculinist | 3:16 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
As long as misinformation, such as that contained in this person's
comments, continues to be spread around, there will always be a misguided
perception that feminism is relevant.
If some women make less than men in the same job, it is the result of choices that many women make, not some mythical maniacal conspiracy amongst men to pay women less money.
Society does not blame victims of rape and sexual assault for the crimes committed against them. That is a lie. The criminal is always to blame. However, if a man runs around in a dark alley waving money around, and then gets mugged, only fools are surprised.
Women are not underrepresented, brushed to the side, or ignored from business, politics or any other aspects of American society. What an absurdity. When a woman runs for office, she has as much chance of being elected as any man.
Feminism is not the struggle for women’s rights. I support a woman’s rights to fair and equal treatment. I do not support extreme and selfish philosophies like feminism that demean stay-at-home moms, assign one acceptable lifestyle for women, and viscously demonize men.
If some women make less than men in the same job, it is the result of choices that many women make, not some mythical maniacal conspiracy amongst men to pay women less money.
Society does not blame victims of rape and sexual assault for the crimes committed against them. That is a lie. The criminal is always to blame. However, if a man runs around in a dark alley waving money around, and then gets mugged, only fools are surprised.
Women are not underrepresented, brushed to the side, or ignored from business, politics or any other aspects of American society. What an absurdity. When a woman runs for office, she has as much chance of being elected as any man.
Feminism is not the struggle for women’s rights. I support a woman’s rights to fair and equal treatment. I do not support extreme and selfish philosophies like feminism that demean stay-at-home moms, assign one acceptable lifestyle for women, and viscously demonize men.
no | 5:38 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
as long as manipulative statistics are thrown out - such as women making 77cents
to the dollar (which does not account for womens making choices that men do not
have) then feminiisn is neither necessry or resepcted - it is merely
passsie/aggressive and annoying
Comments continue below
It depends on what feminism is | 6:25 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
If feminism is about equal pay in the work place I am all for it.
It seems though that some feminism is about some women not wearing makeup or wearing clothes that make them look good or acting in ways that are not very feminine.
I've never understood this, how does this type of feminism help the life of those women who choose to look not as nice as they could or act in feminine ways?
It seems though that some feminism is about some women not wearing makeup or wearing clothes that make them look good or acting in ways that are not very feminine.
I've never understood this, how does this type of feminism help the life of those women who choose to look not as nice as they could or act in feminine ways?
Anonymous | 7:05 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
77 cents to the dollar.
Female clergy not allowed.
Female Bishops not allowed.
Of COURSE we need feminism.
Female clergy not allowed.
Female Bishops not allowed.
Of COURSE we need feminism.
Response | 7:21 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
re Salary differences? | 1:00 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
_________________
A fair way to deal with the fact that women might not stay in a job long enough to justify training is to pay according to how long a person stays in the job. But pay people equally male and female.
_________________
A fair way to deal with the fact that women might not stay in a job long enough to justify training is to pay according to how long a person stays in the job. But pay people equally male and female.
Anonymous | 7:41 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Why no matriarchal blessing?
Salaries | 8:17 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Some men have entered into one traditionally female job (nursing) as it pays
better than most male jobs.
I think, though, that in the job market wages are settled by supply and demand. If you don't negotiate well you may not get as much as another person. I'm male but some men are tougher negotiators than I am so end up being paid better, sometimes undeservedly.
It's a rough and ready way to decide wages and salaries but it's better, I think, than a complicated system presided over by a bureaucrat, that cannot prevent, or even creates new, inequities.
An employer may not value a person so much if he thinks that person will be taking time off when children are sick, will not work overtime when needed and so on.
Employers often make decisions like insurance companies - by profiling, gender, age, ethnic etc. Since an employer doesn't really know who is the best person for the job that employer will make generalisations, such as a woman will more likely quit on me, take unsheduled time off. A man with a chequered work history - the same. Less experience - same. Old person will get sick etc.
I think, though, that in the job market wages are settled by supply and demand. If you don't negotiate well you may not get as much as another person. I'm male but some men are tougher negotiators than I am so end up being paid better, sometimes undeservedly.
It's a rough and ready way to decide wages and salaries but it's better, I think, than a complicated system presided over by a bureaucrat, that cannot prevent, or even creates new, inequities.
An employer may not value a person so much if he thinks that person will be taking time off when children are sick, will not work overtime when needed and so on.
Employers often make decisions like insurance companies - by profiling, gender, age, ethnic etc. Since an employer doesn't really know who is the best person for the job that employer will make generalisations, such as a woman will more likely quit on me, take unsheduled time off. A man with a chequered work history - the same. Less experience - same. Old person will get sick etc.
@ Anonymous 741 | 8:21 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
...Because God is not a feminist.
@ Masculinist | 8:31 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
"Society does not blame victims of rape and sexual assault for the crimes
committed against them. That is a lie. The criminal is always to blame. However,
if a man runs around in a dark alley waving money around, and then gets mugged,
only fools are surprised."
That certainly sounds as if you are blaming the women for being raped. It reads as if, in your opinion, women who are raped are "flaunting" it or "asking for it" and should not be surprised when someone takes them up on it. Do you really think that merely being a woman is the same as waving money around in a dark alley? If a man has so little control of himself that a woman being a woman is grounds to rape her, that is the man's problem - a woman should not have to dress to protect herself from the lowest common denominator.
That certainly sounds as if you are blaming the women for being raped. It reads as if, in your opinion, women who are raped are "flaunting" it or "asking for it" and should not be surprised when someone takes them up on it. Do you really think that merely being a woman is the same as waving money around in a dark alley? If a man has so little control of himself that a woman being a woman is grounds to rape her, that is the man's problem - a woman should not have to dress to protect herself from the lowest common denominator.
@Masculinist | 8:32 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Not to be petty but, first off, shouldn't that be "Masculist".
After all it's feminist not "femininist". I think I would like a
"femininist" a woman who likes to be 'feminine' perhaps.
I detract however. I like a lot of what you say. The only point of difference that I feel strongly about is that, as a male, I no longer get excited about a woman painting her entire head, fingernails, toenails etc. It increasingly seems insane or at least primitive. It seems to wrinkle women's skin over time, and it's a bit odd.
A woman is still a woman if she stays the color God intended. I'll be a "chauvinist" in many people's eyes though: I like a woman to dress in a distinctive feminine style, not in imitation of men: shirt, pants, sneakers. I like distinctive female hair styles too, not extremely short or bald.
Same with men - don't like to see men with long silky hair.
I detract however. I like a lot of what you say. The only point of difference that I feel strongly about is that, as a male, I no longer get excited about a woman painting her entire head, fingernails, toenails etc. It increasingly seems insane or at least primitive. It seems to wrinkle women's skin over time, and it's a bit odd.
A woman is still a woman if she stays the color God intended. I'll be a "chauvinist" in many people's eyes though: I like a woman to dress in a distinctive feminine style, not in imitation of men: shirt, pants, sneakers. I like distinctive female hair styles too, not extremely short or bald.
Same with men - don't like to see men with long silky hair.
Two words | 8:33 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
For all those who think it is bunk that a woman who does the same job as a man
for the same number of years under the same conditions gets paid less then her
male counterparts, I have two words:
Lilly Ledbetter.
Lilly Ledbetter.
Brother Chuck Schroeder | 8:50 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
The Feminists Love Obama's Lies
The sanctimonious shock at Rep. Joe Wilson's (R-SC) calling out "You lie" when Barack Obama said the health care bill will not insure illegal aliens reminds me of the Casablanca police chief saying he was "shocked, shocked" to learn that gambling was taking place in the saloon. Barack Obama's congressional pals had defeated the Republican amendment to require proof of legal residency in order to be covered by the health care bill, and the American people know that illegals are now getting free health care at emergency rooms.
The surprise was that nobody cried "You lie" when Obama said "Under our plan no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions." Anyone who follows this issue knows that all Democratic sponsored bills cover abortion funding, and that the Hyde Amendment will not apply to the health care bill because it only prohibits federal taxpayer funding of abortions financed through Medicaid.
Obama promised Planned Parenthood that "In my mind, reproductive care is essential care." Planned Parenthood got their feminist killing babies act.
Radical Feminism went out & died in 1995, when The Family was brought forth again. Why dwell on it now?.
The sanctimonious shock at Rep. Joe Wilson's (R-SC) calling out "You lie" when Barack Obama said the health care bill will not insure illegal aliens reminds me of the Casablanca police chief saying he was "shocked, shocked" to learn that gambling was taking place in the saloon. Barack Obama's congressional pals had defeated the Republican amendment to require proof of legal residency in order to be covered by the health care bill, and the American people know that illegals are now getting free health care at emergency rooms.
The surprise was that nobody cried "You lie" when Obama said "Under our plan no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions." Anyone who follows this issue knows that all Democratic sponsored bills cover abortion funding, and that the Hyde Amendment will not apply to the health care bill because it only prohibits federal taxpayer funding of abortions financed through Medicaid.
Obama promised Planned Parenthood that "In my mind, reproductive care is essential care." Planned Parenthood got their feminist killing babies act.
Radical Feminism went out & died in 1995, when The Family was brought forth again. Why dwell on it now?.
Phantom Panther | 9:25 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
I love and admire women. However, I am disgusted that today's society seems
determined to turn our women into men. If a woman doesn't aspire to all the
supposed masculine strengths (i.e. tough, aggressive, etc.), she's
considered to be a loser. Women should be women. Nurture your God-given
attributes and stop trying to be men. Our society is losing the nurturing spirit
that women have played throughout history. I'd like to see fewer women
"kickin' butt" and more women nurturing and loving those around
them to take some the harsh edge off life. Unfortunatley, that's not the
way we're headed. Instead, it's me, me, me. Thus, abortion on demand,
anything goes sex, greed and harshness (thus spoke feminism).
well | 9:58 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
most feminism is merely misandry - and it is tedious
Kimballicious | 10:11 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Hey Annonymous741,
Are you God's spokesperson? How do you know he wouldn't support feminism. I have a hard time believing God wouldn't support equal pay.
Are you God's spokesperson? How do you know he wouldn't support feminism. I have a hard time believing God wouldn't support equal pay.
Mike | 11:20 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
To Anonymous | 7:41 a.m.
You can start your own Church and give all the matriarchal bleesing you want - no one is stopping you!
You can start your own Church and give all the matriarchal bleesing you want - no one is stopping you!
@10.11a.m. | 11:23 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
God cannot be a feminist. He made a serious law against shedding innocent
blood, so he can't support abortion. Without that how can He be a
feminist?
Anonymous | 11:41 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
But Feminism is about destroying the family which is seen as oppressive to
women. And it's about emasculating men. Abortion is its sacrament.
Forget Feminism.
What we need is for society to follow the gospel of Jesus Christ. In the gospel, we are all equal and retain and celebrate masculine and feminine qualities. No one is harmed and people earn was they work for.
What we need is for society to follow the gospel of Jesus Christ. In the gospel, we are all equal and retain and celebrate masculine and feminine qualities. No one is harmed and people earn was they work for.
re: Mike @ 11:20 | 11:58 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
This misogynist knows it isn't GOD that isn't deeming women to the
priesthood, it's the Good Ol' Boy's Club.
Disgusting and way self-serving and promoting.
Disgusting and way self-serving and promoting.
Hatuletoh | 12:48 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
The feminism of the 19th and 20th centuries is no longer necessary. Women can
vote, wear pants, have careers, rent or own property, and are in every legal way
are equal to men. People my age can't even conceive that it should have
ever been otherwise, and consequently I believe it is very important--especially
for young women--to remember that these rights were hard won fairly recently.
Some of the posters here must not be the parent of daughters, or else they know
very little about history (I suspect the latter).
Feminism could have a place in the 21st century, but its focus must change. The unique problems that confront women today simply aren't the same ones as in the past. Frankly, I'd love to hear a feminist group come out and say that it's good for some woment to choose a family over a career. I'd love a feminist group, rather than focusing entirely on the "equal pay" issue, to be fighting for the ability of families to earn enough to have one parent work and the other stay home. Wouldn't THAT be a great help to many women?
Feminism could have a place in the 21st century, but its focus must change. The unique problems that confront women today simply aren't the same ones as in the past. Frankly, I'd love to hear a feminist group come out and say that it's good for some woment to choose a family over a career. I'd love a feminist group, rather than focusing entirely on the "equal pay" issue, to be fighting for the ability of families to earn enough to have one parent work and the other stay home. Wouldn't THAT be a great help to many women?
equality | 1:19 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
I do not know what these jobs are where men make more then women.
Every where I have ever worked the same job title starts at the same amount. And I am talking about minimum wage, to professional level jobs.
So I wonder where this comes from or if the information is correct.
Is there not laws that prohibit sex discrimination?
It just has to be proved, like anything else
Apples to apples, oranges to oranges.
My view of what feminism has done is nothing but putting down men. Their goal is to turn men into women, or less then women.
Young boys in school are drugged up for being to hyper, teaching styles are geared to girls, more women are going to college now then men.
watch tv shows and see how men and fathers are portrayed.
Sexual harrassment laws have gotten to the point where what ever you do is harrassment, so you just do not talk to, or look at women at work. For a man it has become a "hostile work environment" if you work with women anymore.
lastly if you think men always have the advantage try seeing how men are treated in divorce court
Every where I have ever worked the same job title starts at the same amount. And I am talking about minimum wage, to professional level jobs.
So I wonder where this comes from or if the information is correct.
Is there not laws that prohibit sex discrimination?
It just has to be proved, like anything else
Apples to apples, oranges to oranges.
My view of what feminism has done is nothing but putting down men. Their goal is to turn men into women, or less then women.
Young boys in school are drugged up for being to hyper, teaching styles are geared to girls, more women are going to college now then men.
watch tv shows and see how men and fathers are portrayed.
Sexual harrassment laws have gotten to the point where what ever you do is harrassment, so you just do not talk to, or look at women at work. For a man it has become a "hostile work environment" if you work with women anymore.
lastly if you think men always have the advantage try seeing how men are treated in divorce court
Femininist | 1:23 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
any "ism" thinks it's superior to any other. Let's get rid
of isms.
And great point, Hatuletoh. It would be a better world if one parent would stay home to actually raise their children, instead of having someone else do it for them. (don't have kids unless you're going to raise them).
And great point, Hatuletoh. It would be a better world if one parent would stay home to actually raise their children, instead of having someone else do it for them. (don't have kids unless you're going to raise them).
masculinist | 1:41 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
At 7:05
Clergy and priesthood callings are nothing but service assignments. They are given to men because otherwise most men would not do them. Sparing women such burdens is a benefit to them that makes it easier for them to handle other burdens often piled on them in their life, such as child rearing. Why else would Jesus, an all-knowing, all-loving God, have purposely selected 12 male apostles and established a patriarchal church? The insistence of feminists to pile more burdens on themselves is just one more evidence of feminism’s madness.
Feminists want equal pay without regard for equal experience, equal skills, equal raining, or equal business loyalty. Feminists want equal church clergy options regardless of God’s will as defined by their own church’s established doctrines. We can only hope that their misguided fantasies will never be attained!
Oh, and (before the predictable lame name calling starts) no, I’m not a Neocon, woman-hater, right-wing extremist, any form of robot, or any form of mentally inferior being.
Clergy and priesthood callings are nothing but service assignments. They are given to men because otherwise most men would not do them. Sparing women such burdens is a benefit to them that makes it easier for them to handle other burdens often piled on them in their life, such as child rearing. Why else would Jesus, an all-knowing, all-loving God, have purposely selected 12 male apostles and established a patriarchal church? The insistence of feminists to pile more burdens on themselves is just one more evidence of feminism’s madness.
Feminists want equal pay without regard for equal experience, equal skills, equal raining, or equal business loyalty. Feminists want equal church clergy options regardless of God’s will as defined by their own church’s established doctrines. We can only hope that their misguided fantasies will never be attained!
Oh, and (before the predictable lame name calling starts) no, I’m not a Neocon, woman-hater, right-wing extremist, any form of robot, or any form of mentally inferior being.
No One of Consequence | 2:05 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
When mainstream feminism stands up for the rights of unborn females (and males)
as strongly as it does for the right of their mothers to kill them, feminism
will be worthy of our respect.
Grow up feminists! It is time to stop sacrificing our children on the altar of vanity.
Grow up feminists! It is time to stop sacrificing our children on the altar of vanity.
re: masculinist @ 1:41 | 2:11 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
That's the most ridiculous argument I've heard yet to try to explain
away the Good Ol' Boy's Club BS.
You will never convince one single woman that she is not good enough or righteous enough to assume the responsibilities of any form of priesthood in any Good Ol' Boy's Club organization.
Masculine my eye!
You will never convince one single woman that she is not good enough or righteous enough to assume the responsibilities of any form of priesthood in any Good Ol' Boy's Club organization.
Masculine my eye!
a man with a plan | 2:21 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
WASHINGTON–After decades spent battling gender discrimination and
inequality in the workplace, the feminist movement underwent a high-level
shake-up last month, when 53-year-old management consultant Peter
"Buck" McGowan took over as new chief of the worldwide initiative for
women's rights.
"What these women were able to accomplish with the little manpower they had is very impressive," McGowan said. "I just bring a certain something to the table–I'm not sure what–that gave us that extra little push into complete female independence. I guess it just comes naturally."
Although he has not hinted at any future projects after all forms of gender discrimination are a thing of the past, McGowan has vehemently denied rumors that he will leave the feminist movement to head up the struggle for gay rights.
"What these women were able to accomplish with the little manpower they had is very impressive," McGowan said. "I just bring a certain something to the table–I'm not sure what–that gave us that extra little push into complete female independence. I guess it just comes naturally."
Although he has not hinted at any future projects after all forms of gender discrimination are a thing of the past, McGowan has vehemently denied rumors that he will leave the feminist movement to head up the struggle for gay rights.
@ 7:41 | 2:21 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Matriarchal blessing? I don’t know. Maybe because God never asked us to do it that way. But I’m sure feminists know better that He.
only in Utah | 2:29 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Neocons like to bully everyone and anyone so much, they are now going after
women to "put them in their place."
LOL!
LOL!
@8:31 | 2:31 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
You are wrong to accuse me of “blaming” victims. You combine two
issues. A man has a right to walk wherever he wants and wave his money around
without having to worry about being mugged. A woman has a right to dress and
behave in whatever manner is legally allowed and not be sexually abused. There
is no disagreement on that.
But, what you have a legal right to do is not the same as what you would be wise to do. Wise people ACCEPT the reality of human nature, rather than relying on always inadequate man-made laws to determine the limits on their behavior. Your beliefs of ‘how it should be’ will have no affect on the nature of evil men.
I’m not saying that fools should be punished by the law. Fools are their own punishment. But no amount of feminism will eradicate the lusts of an evil man. Do you leave your doors unlocked because burglary is illegal? If yes, then you must likewise understand the wisdom of not dressing your body as an advertisement for sex just because rape is illegal and ‘should not’ happen.
But, what you have a legal right to do is not the same as what you would be wise to do. Wise people ACCEPT the reality of human nature, rather than relying on always inadequate man-made laws to determine the limits on their behavior. Your beliefs of ‘how it should be’ will have no affect on the nature of evil men.
I’m not saying that fools should be punished by the law. Fools are their own punishment. But no amount of feminism will eradicate the lusts of an evil man. Do you leave your doors unlocked because burglary is illegal? If yes, then you must likewise understand the wisdom of not dressing your body as an advertisement for sex just because rape is illegal and ‘should not’ happen.
Masculist - (is that better) | 2:44 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
@ 8:32
I agree with you. Makeup and clothing is a choice every woman has the right to make. My preferences and yours are irrelevant. However, in sync with what I’ve been saying, if there is a look that men commonly associate with prostitutes, it would be extremely unwise for women who are not prostitutes to dress that way.
It’s legal. They have a right to do it. No one has a right to hurt them for it. But they are still fools if they do it.
We communicate with people in more ways than with our words. Only a fool would dress in a way that says “come and get it” and then be shocked when some lustful evil man actually comes to get it. (And no, I’m not saying that if they force themselves on the woman, it is the woman’s fault. I'm just saying :please do not be fools just because you 'should' have a right to do something.)
I agree with you. Makeup and clothing is a choice every woman has the right to make. My preferences and yours are irrelevant. However, in sync with what I’ve been saying, if there is a look that men commonly associate with prostitutes, it would be extremely unwise for women who are not prostitutes to dress that way.
It’s legal. They have a right to do it. No one has a right to hurt them for it. But they are still fools if they do it.
We communicate with people in more ways than with our words. Only a fool would dress in a way that says “come and get it” and then be shocked when some lustful evil man actually comes to get it. (And no, I’m not saying that if they force themselves on the woman, it is the woman’s fault. I'm just saying :please do not be fools just because you 'should' have a right to do something.)
More Than Equal | 2:50 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Based on the number of female teachers raping our youth, we must sadly
acknowlege that women have at last achieved the equality they have demanded.
Congratulations and condolences
Congratulations and condolences
@2:11 | 3:05 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
From what ethereal planet did you derive this notion that I want to convince
women that they are not good enough or righteous enough to assume the
responsibilities of any form of priesthood? On the contrary, most women I know
are far better and far more righteous than most men in those responsibilities.
But those responsibilities do not exist for the purpose of demonstrating
superiority or greater righteousness. Anyone who thinks otherwise is all the
less worthy of such a position. Unlike you, I cannot speak for God, but I
believe he arranged it that way for the purpose of enticing men into the service
of others.
You claim my statement is ridiculous and yet, you can provide nothing but accusations, insults and belittlements to pretend to support your lame point of view. You really think churches with all-male clergy would continue to exist if their wives and mothers did not equally support it? Wipe the rabid slobber off your church-hating face and get real.
You claim my statement is ridiculous and yet, you can provide nothing but accusations, insults and belittlements to pretend to support your lame point of view. You really think churches with all-male clergy would continue to exist if their wives and mothers did not equally support it? Wipe the rabid slobber off your church-hating face and get real.
Anonymous | 3:09 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Pity the poor fools raised in a patriarchal environment.
You know the environment.
They believe in a god that throws people into everlasting hellfire for their transgressions - because he love them.
Is it any wonder so many men in this culture are nuts.
You know the environment.
They believe in a god that throws people into everlasting hellfire for their transgressions - because he love them.
Is it any wonder so many men in this culture are nuts.
@2:29 | 3:09 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Get out of Utah once in awhile. You might discover that feminism is universally
argued everywhere. No one’s bullying anyone (though your lame attempt to
offend people with your overused “neocon” name calling comes close)
Anonymous | 3:14 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
The need for feminism (especially in a patriarchal society such as Utah), stems
from an ancient dichotomy of "Strict Father" as opposed to
"Nurturing Parent" models of ethical theory.
The "Strict Father" models rely on beating the children, ask no question of authority and keeping the women in subservient positions.
Pity the women from this type of culture.
The "Strict Father" models rely on beating the children, ask no question of authority and keeping the women in subservient positions.
Pity the women from this type of culture.
Anonymous' corrector | 5:18 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
@3:09
I pity the fool who feels compelled to condemn the local “culture” as inferior “fools” and “nuts” while misleading readers as to the actual doctrines of the local culture. One can only guess what “culture” is being maligned, but if it is Mormon culture, there is no concept of a merciless God. On the contrary, the lowest heaven in Mormon doctrine is virtually identical to what is often described as heaven in most other Christian doctrines. The only “hellfire” Mormons believe people will suffer will be the eternal realization of what could have been.
@3:14
What audacity to condemn “Utah patriarchal society” for the “strict father” mentality that exists in some homes (usually transferred in from other countries). Such mentality has been continually condemned by the Mormon Church. There is no support for this accusation that Utah culture condones beating of women. It is a requirement of nurturing parents to teach all their children to respect authority, but violence is universally condemned as the means of such teaching. The notion that women are “kept in subservient positions” is a lie. Only a feminist would condemn motherhood and devotion to family as a subservient position.
I pity the fool who feels compelled to condemn the local “culture” as inferior “fools” and “nuts” while misleading readers as to the actual doctrines of the local culture. One can only guess what “culture” is being maligned, but if it is Mormon culture, there is no concept of a merciless God. On the contrary, the lowest heaven in Mormon doctrine is virtually identical to what is often described as heaven in most other Christian doctrines. The only “hellfire” Mormons believe people will suffer will be the eternal realization of what could have been.
@3:14
What audacity to condemn “Utah patriarchal society” for the “strict father” mentality that exists in some homes (usually transferred in from other countries). Such mentality has been continually condemned by the Mormon Church. There is no support for this accusation that Utah culture condones beating of women. It is a requirement of nurturing parents to teach all their children to respect authority, but violence is universally condemned as the means of such teaching. The notion that women are “kept in subservient positions” is a lie. Only a feminist would condemn motherhood and devotion to family as a subservient position.
flies | 5:25 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
are also necessary, but not very attractive and they are extremely annoying
Charles | 5:37 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
@3:14 --- get your dogma straight from the book "Don't think of an
elephant" huh? you aren't even original in your thinking. Give credit
to Lakoff.
That analysis has so many holes in it it's not worth a response even though 5:18 does a great job of doing it.
You really need to get some help for you anger and hatred for things Utah, LDS folks in particular.
That analysis has so many holes in it it's not worth a response even though 5:18 does a great job of doing it.
You really need to get some help for you anger and hatred for things Utah, LDS folks in particular.
Anonymous | 5:42 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
In any total obedience to authority culture such as Utah's is similar to
the fall of the Roman Empire.
And that authority is always patriarchal.
They even have "patriarchal blessings" (no matriarchal whatsoever) to compound the dire need for feminism to emerge.
And that authority is always patriarchal.
They even have "patriarchal blessings" (no matriarchal whatsoever) to compound the dire need for feminism to emerge.
Feminism undervalues woman | 8:51 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Equal pay as men, blaming the female victim, and women being ignored are valid
reasons for feminism to exist.
However, undervaluing the contributions and role of women worldwide in the home and community and pushing the idea that a woman has to be/act more like a man, and not herself, is a shameful aspect of much of the dominant feminism of today.
However, undervaluing the contributions and role of women worldwide in the home and community and pushing the idea that a woman has to be/act more like a man, and not herself, is a shameful aspect of much of the dominant feminism of today.
New feminism needed | 9:03 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
I have poor treatment of everywhere across the country and world where I have
lived. Women work in Utah the same as everywhere else(and go to school more).
Politically feminism is more about an overall political agernda and point of
view than caring about/protecting women. At first it was "women never
lie" and Anita Hill v. Clarence Thomas and in later years a slew of women
were blamed/demonized/marginalized and/or ignored by feminists for accusing
Clinton sexual misbehavior and abuse of power against women.We desperately need
a new group of feminists who are honest and who wh care about all women,
regardless of the political situation.
Anonymous | 9:55 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009
Be careful what you say about women's rights and feminism boys.
Your next life may find you wearing a dress.
Your next life may find you wearing a dress.
brj | 10:56 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009
I heartily agree with and support equal pay for equal work. But how do we
define equal?
Braeden should read Warren Farrell's book, "Why Men Earn More". Farrell served on the board of the National Organization for Women (NOW). His research suggests the wage gap is primarily about trade-offs. Jobs that pay higher salaries generally require more sacrifice, education, longetivity, physical risk, strenuous exertion, travel from home, or longer work hours.
Understandably, women are more likely to accept jobs that better balance work and family life despite lower pay. How many women want to be coal miners? Farrell identifies 80 occupations where women acutually make from 5% to 43% more than men, but suggests few women are willing to accept the working conditions.
Additionally, when women move in and out of the work force or choose part-time work for the kids' sake, they lose their seniority-based wage advantage. Parity with the man who works no harder but has been there more years, may look desirable to the new female employee, but ask the woman who's been there 20 years if she wants parity with the newly hired man in the same position. It's complicated.
Braeden should read Warren Farrell's book, "Why Men Earn More". Farrell served on the board of the National Organization for Women (NOW). His research suggests the wage gap is primarily about trade-offs. Jobs that pay higher salaries generally require more sacrifice, education, longetivity, physical risk, strenuous exertion, travel from home, or longer work hours.
Understandably, women are more likely to accept jobs that better balance work and family life despite lower pay. How many women want to be coal miners? Farrell identifies 80 occupations where women acutually make from 5% to 43% more than men, but suggests few women are willing to accept the working conditions.
Additionally, when women move in and out of the work force or choose part-time work for the kids' sake, they lose their seniority-based wage advantage. Parity with the man who works no harder but has been there more years, may look desirable to the new female employee, but ask the woman who's been there 20 years if she wants parity with the newly hired man in the same position. It's complicated.
Braeden's sister | 1:49 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009
I think I understand where all of your comments are coming from, and I certainly
don't want to cause more of a ruckus, but this is how I see the world.
Men are no better than women.
Women are no better than men.
Traditionally, it has been the woman's "job" to leave work to take care of sick children, etc...but why? Shouldn't Dad take an equal role, particularly if both parents work?
Even today, there are many jobs in which men are simply hired more frequently than women, for tradition sake. (i.e. politics, broadcasting, horseracing...)
No woman asks to be raped.
Have you ever thought that maybe some women dress the way they do because they have been raised to think that they are worthless without the approval of men?
I consider myself a feminist, but I would prefer to be a stay-at-home mom than work.
Feminism simply means to me that my life is worth just as much as my husbands, and my thoughts and feelings and opinion are just as important as his.
Men are no better than women.
Women are no better than men.
Traditionally, it has been the woman's "job" to leave work to take care of sick children, etc...but why? Shouldn't Dad take an equal role, particularly if both parents work?
Even today, there are many jobs in which men are simply hired more frequently than women, for tradition sake. (i.e. politics, broadcasting, horseracing...)
No woman asks to be raped.
Have you ever thought that maybe some women dress the way they do because they have been raised to think that they are worthless without the approval of men?
I consider myself a feminist, but I would prefer to be a stay-at-home mom than work.
Feminism simply means to me that my life is worth just as much as my husbands, and my thoughts and feelings and opinion are just as important as his.
Differences | 2:08 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009
Coming to the USA in the 70's I soon found a huge difference in feminism
here and in the UK.
In the UK women wanted just to ensure equal rights. In the USA feminists want to emasculate men, and to be treated like deity. They want to worship goddesses and be goddesses themselves. Their's is a "feminism" that accuses and hates men. It is a doctrine of hate and arrogance.
They promote themselves as not equal but superior to men. They want, not equal rights, but special rights. They want the advantage of men and their children too, who they think they have the right to kill.
In the UK women wanted just to ensure equal rights. In the USA feminists want to emasculate men, and to be treated like deity. They want to worship goddesses and be goddesses themselves. Their's is a "feminism" that accuses and hates men. It is a doctrine of hate and arrogance.
They promote themselves as not equal but superior to men. They want, not equal rights, but special rights. They want the advantage of men and their children too, who they think they have the right to kill.
Anonymous | 3:09 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009
Feminism brought about:
The vote for women
Women could now own property
Women will no longer be treated as 2nd class citizens.
The vote for women
Women could now own property
Women will no longer be treated as 2nd class citizens.
to -- Differences | 2:08 p.m | 4:03 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009
["Coming to the USA in the 70's I soon found a huge difference in
feminism here and in the UK.
In the UK women wanted just to ensure equal rights. In the USA feminists want to emasculate men, and to be treated like deity. They want to worship goddesses and be goddesses themselves. Their's is a "feminism" that accuses and hates men. It is a doctrine of hate and arrogance.
They promote themselves as not equal but superior to men. They want, not equal rights, but special rights. They want the advantage of men and their children too, who they think they have the right to kill"]
i would say you came from somewhere other than the UK - more like outer space... women aren't at all as you describe.
perhaps your attitude makes women shun you, and you take that to mean they feel superior... when in fact, they simply DON'T LIKE YOU!! (and it's not hard to see why...)
In the UK women wanted just to ensure equal rights. In the USA feminists want to emasculate men, and to be treated like deity. They want to worship goddesses and be goddesses themselves. Their's is a "feminism" that accuses and hates men. It is a doctrine of hate and arrogance.
They promote themselves as not equal but superior to men. They want, not equal rights, but special rights. They want the advantage of men and their children too, who they think they have the right to kill"]
i would say you came from somewhere other than the UK - more like outer space... women aren't at all as you describe.
perhaps your attitude makes women shun you, and you take that to mean they feel superior... when in fact, they simply DON'T LIKE YOU!! (and it's not hard to see why...)
@208pm | 5:42 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009
This is very typical liberal illogic.
I never applied the description you are decrying to "women" - only to the generality of American feminists.
Even if all women lived in America, all American women are not feminists, just as all feminists are not women.
I never applied the description you are decrying to "women" - only to the generality of American feminists.
Even if all women lived in America, all American women are not feminists, just as all feminists are not women.
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