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Readers' forum: Flu shots socialism?

Wrong! | 1:33 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

Here is what the author and others aren't willing to understand! Nothing from the government is free! Someone will pay for your flu shots or whatever! As long as you can shift the responsibility to pay your bills to someone else who cares, right? More red ink doesn't matter does it? Drowning our grandchilren in debt is their problem, right? How selfish can you get? Evidently pretty selfish! Enjoy your "free" flu shot much?

John C. | 3:03 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

To Seanna Williams, LCSW : Guess what…I’m an Obama naysayer (if you wish to call me that, because I believe in the constitution not socialism,) I haven’t gotten caught up in the H1N1 hysteria that some news agencies are calling a pandemic and gotten any shot free or other wise. Not all of us are buying everything that comes out of this administrations mouth. But if you like the hole hook line and sinker then feel free to swallow.

Say what? | 3:34 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

We also know what a bad job the government has done at getting us the vaccine.

By the way, stopping pandemics is what government should be doing. It serves everyone equally and everyone wants it. Contrast that to Obamacare that most people don’t want and that serves only a small segment of society. Stop confusing the issue by comparing it to Obama’s desire to place all control over human health in the country in the hands of our generally inept and too often corrupt government.

Comments continue below

The writer is deceived ! ! | 4:34 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

If we would only let the market allocate access to flu shots, the first customers would be those with the means to get them, which would leave the poor (and many children) to fend for themselves, or get sick & die, removing themselves from the genepool, etc.

Jesus taught Social Darwinism... didn't he?

Bingo | 5:42 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

Great letter.

JMT | 5:50 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

Actually, so many people have NOT gone in to take the shots.

And if we must compare this issue to socialism we need look no further than the centrally planned governments inability to produce H1N1 Flu shots. The central plan was to have over 100 million doses ready. That was then shifted downwards to 60+ million, then shifted downwards again, and again.

Compare that to the free market and capitalism producing so many other vaccines with little to no problem. The big difference is that the H1N1 shot is run with all the efficiency of Cash 4 Clunkers. The others, the market handles. If people want the shot, they pay for it and get it. If they don't want it, they don't pay for it, don't get it.

Bottom line is that so much of the poverty around the world that the left wants to eradicate is associated with socialist, government planned economies. And the prosperity that the left wants to take and share with the poor is produced by capitalist methods of individual choice and economic liberty.

Socialism doesn't work. At best it's a very slow path to termination. H1N1 is another example.

Not me... | 5:59 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

None of my family is getting the H1N1 - free or not. I didn't even know they were offering a free shot anywhere. The whole H1N1 thing is so overblown, it is scarey. And I have to ask myself what is going on. If I follow the money, I'm left to conclude that 1) Obama is hyping this as a way to pay back his supporters in the pharmaceutical companies for their large contributions to his campaign, or 2) Obama is hyping this to lend support to the need for socialized medicine. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view), with the HINI flu vaccine debacle, the Obama administration is just illustrating how incompetent government is at running anything. All this hype and no vaccine available. Consider this Obama's Hurricane Katrina.

Highest bidder | 6:00 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

I've been very frustrated by the constant "run" on vaccines at my local health department. They announce a supply online, but within hours, its gone. It's not easy taking off work, getting your kids out of school, and then waiting in line for the vaccine only to be turned away.

That's Obamacare folks!

What we need is to distribute the vaccines to the highest bidders. Start the price out at $100 per shot! That will slow the demand down and keep the riff-raff out!

A Human | 6:04 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

This is silly. The only place to get the H1N1 flu shot is from the government... If I could get it from another source I would. If the only place to get the shot is from the government then I am at it's mercy. That is socialism.

I got my regular flu shot without any trouble at my Doctors office... Insurance paid the full bill because they know it's cheaper to pay that than the consequences of not having the shot. That is Free Market health care.

I can't get the government H1N1 Flu Shot... hmmm. What works and what doesn't work?

LCSW | 6:18 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

"LCSW: Licensed Clinical Social Worker."

To some posters, "Social Worker" probably means you are a card carrying member of the Socialist Workers Party. Well I need get in my car and take a drive to Delta on some Socialist public roads that were built using "stolen" tax money.

JR | 6:20 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

Like everything else, how convenient to forget something like socialized medicine when it comes to your own selfish needs. Look how fast people have forgotten the past 8 years and are so easy to put all the blame on the new adminstrator of 9 months.

Roland Kayser | 7:08 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

People always seem to like socialism when it benefits them. Its only when it benefits "others" that they object. Seniors love their Medicare, farmers love their agriculture subsidies, automobile drivers like their subsidized roads, etc., etc.

KM | 7:31 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

You just made a very foolish argument. This stupid government just proved how wrong-headed and inept they are even in a small thing such as the delivery of flu vaccine to the people. Now we are to give the whole health care system to the same govt. that can't deliver even the shots on time.
Prepare yourself for rationing and waiting a long time for personal care.

Anonymous | 7:31 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

Flu shots equals socialism? Did proponents of this say the same thing when President Ford did the same in response to a flu epidemic in the mid-1970s? Of course not. The right wing is just unhinged now.

Felix Urioste | 7:39 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

This once great nation will be destroyed by socialism, such as civil rights, flu shots and flouridated water.

Anonymous | 7:42 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

Where else but Utah would the claim that flu shots, in the interest of public health, is socialism. This is crazy talk! I had no idea Utah was more ill informed and paranoid than the deep South.

To John C. | 7:51 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

"I believe in the constitution not socialism,)"

The Constitution does NOT specify system of economics. Socialism is a type of economics, not a type of government.

Grover | 8:04 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

How exactly would you treat a public health issue except with government intervention. If you are talking about a disease that can spread quickly from person to person regardless whether they can even spell "socialist", "free" markets couldn't address a problem like this until about half the population was dead. I propose a constitutional amendment to make flu shots a right for everyone!

fools love conservativism | 8:57 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

"centrally planned governments inability to produce H1N1 Flu shots"

You of course know that 'free market' companies are the ones manufacturing the vaccine, right? Or are you simply parroting some pea brained thing from your favorite talking head?

"What we need is to distribute the vaccines to the highest bidders. Start the price out at $100 per shot! That will slow the demand down and keep the riff-raff out!"

Now THIS is classic conservatism. Paraphrased, "the poor should just die already", just like Christ preached.

jackhp | 9:00 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

Those blaming the government for short supplies of the vaccine are barking up the wrong tree. Who do think MAKES the vaccine? PRIVATE pharmaceutical companies maybe . . .

The shortage in supply is not because the government isn't capable of delivering it, it's because the private companies aren't capable of making it fast enough.

jackhp | 9:05 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

"Here is what the author and others aren't willing to understand! Nothing from the government is free!"

Uh, I'm pretty sure the author understands, that's why SHE put "free" in quotation marks.

People are really | 9:26 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

crazy, socialism, flu, do you really think anything is every going to be done perfectly? PEOPLE run the show so mistakes are bound to be abundant. As is always has been and always will be.

Obamacare failure | 9:29 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

If the fiasco of H1N1 is a prelude to the future of health care, I want nothing to do with it. The Obama response to the H1N1 problem has been abysmal. The administration couldn't do anything right when it appeared last spring. H1N1 raged out of any control the administration tried. Next, the administration failed at getting us vaccine. Thousands of people have been turned away that wanted it. If we would have let the private market work, there would have been plenty. Then to add insult, the Obama administration wanted to give away america's vaccine to other countries-give it away for free! How is Bush responsible for that?

The LCSW is absolutely wrong about the H1N1 being a "success"; it is an abject failure and should be a warning to everyone in America.

cm | 9:35 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

100% of the flu vaccine is being produced by the private sector... not government. There are a limited number of manufacturers and demand is outstripping supply this year. Manufacturers have to determine which strains will be prevalent for the regular seasonal flu vaccine and begin production in January. This year the same manufacturers have to produce the H1N1 vaccine as well. Flu vaccine is made by growing the virus in hundreds of millions of chicken eggs which makes it difficult to ramp up production on a moment's notice. The seed stock for H1N1 wasn't even available until May and the yield is not as high as manufacturers had predicted in the spring. You can yell at the president or even the chicken eggs but the virus won't grow any faster. Manufacturers actually have made the same amount of seasonal vaccine as last year, but the media hysteria has created exploding demand for both vaccines. There is a desperate need to research and change the process from the 50 year old chicken egg technology to a faster cultured cell based technology to better align the annual conflict between supply and demand for flu vaccine.

huh | 9:59 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

my private insurnce is paying for the flu shot

k | 10:12 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

I thought is was rediculous when the democrats blamed Bush for a shortage of flu shots... I think it's just as stupid to blame this on Obama.
I don't know how I feel about all the testing that was or was not done on the shot. Thats the only concern I have about the shot. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OBAMA!!!

A look back | 11:06 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

when Bush was Pres., in Oct. 2004:

A CNN / USA Today / Gallup poll released Tuesday shows just 17 percent of respondents said they blame Bush a "great deal" for the shortage. An additional 18 percent said they blame the president a "moderate amount."

The shortage first became an issue on October 5, when British authorities said they were suspending production of the vaccine at the Liverpool plant of Chiron Corp., an American company, because of contamination problems. (CDC asks some to forgo flu vaccination)

Chiron had contracted to deliver to the United States 46 million to 48 million doses, nearly half of the country's projected need of 100 million doses.

cm | 11:33 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

Repeat after me....
Private sector companies produce all of the flu vaccine for the United States.
The government does not produce any flu vaccine.
There's more seasonal vaccine available than last year.
The H1N1 vaccine was created using the exact same methodology as the seasonal flu vaccine.

layton | 11:40 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

Kicking and screaming to take care of the poor and sick......wow.

Anonymous | 1:14 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

The Obama administration should have ordered more flu shots than they did. They ordered it so that the serum is produced slowly in a single shot, instead of mass-producing it.

What people are annoyed with is that the administration and Sibelius is turning into a nanny state, telling us what to do.

The flu shot may or may not be a good thing. Personally, I'm a little paranoid, as I've heard of people having bad reactions to it. But that's just me. I want to have the freedom to not take the shot if I don't want to.

We will lose freedoms if the Health care bill passes. And the rationing and standing in line to get shots, I believe is how it will be if the bill passes. We'll be like a third world country.

jackhp | 1:45 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

re: Anonymous 1:14 p.m.

Your post is full of lies, innuendo and misplaced paranoia.

"The Obama administration should have ordered more flu shots than they did."

From the cdc website: "The federal government has purchased a total of 250 million doses of 2009 H1N1 vaccine."

"What people are annoyed with is that the administration and Sibelius is turning into a nanny state, telling us what to do."

Really? What, exactly, have you been "told" to do?

"The flu shot may or may not be a good thing. Personally, I'm a little paranoid, as I've heard of people having bad reactions to it. But that's just me. I want to have the freedom to not take the shot if I don't want to."

You are free to be paranoid if you so wish. Who is telling you you DON'T have the freedom to not take the shot?

"We will lose freedoms if the Health care bill passes."

Such as? Come on, be specific, you can do it.

jackhp | 1:47 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

"And the rationing and standing in line to get shots, I believe is how it will be if the bill passes."

I'd rather have the shots go to those who NEED them most rather than those who can pay a "market" price for them. My wife and kids got their shots today, no standing in line and no waiting.

"We'll be like a third world country."

That's a bit hysterical, don't you think? Third-world countries don't get vaccines. I think we'll be fine.

Flu vaccine shortage | 1:51 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

The shortage/delay has nothing to do with Obama and everything to do with the manufacturers.

Officials at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention say for months, the companies didn't realize how far short their vaccine "yields" were falling. That's because they didn't have the chemicals – called reagents – that would have told them how much active ingredient they had in their vaccine production vats.

"To really understand how much product you have, you need to do potency tests," says Dr. Anne Schuchat, chief of the CDC's National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases. She says reliable tests used to measure potency were delayed.

"When they were run, the manufacturers basically found out that the product they had was actually less than they thought they had."

Anonymous | 2:15 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

Now flu shots are socialism.
LOL!

@jackhp | 3:17 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

There is nobody more dangerous than a person who thinks he's smarter than the rest...Arrogance equals major mistakes that affect the lives of others. Stay tuned to the fall-out of the Obama administration and, sadly the socialist Bush administration. Same goals different parties.

amazing | 4:18 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

Hypocrites....

it's all I can say.

hypocrites.

Anonymous | 4:36 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

It is clear that the reddest state in America is also the most insane.

John C. | 5:34 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

To John C. | 7:51 a.m: To the poor sad individual who didn’t have the courage to identify themselves. Socialism didn’t exist back when the founding fathers wrote the constitution. Further though it may have started as a philosophy of Karl Marx It is very much a political system under current European socialist parties or communist. It is a political system. How do you not get that is just unbelievable.

to:John C. | 5:34 p.m. | 6:02 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

You are wrong John C.

You've been dumbed down by those drop-outs on AM talk-radio shows.

Socialism is an economic system.

Our Government is a Democratic Republic.

Go to college [a government institution of highrer learning],

or

Go the the Library [another socialist sponsored building you obvious avoid]

Karl Marx wrote his manifesto nearly 6,000 thousand years after the first socialist of communist societies. He didn't invent it.

In your own words;
How do you not get that is just unbelievable.

READ.

Digbads | 6:18 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

BO stinks. I greatly dislike the president and his policies.
I have not gotten and will not get a flu shot. If I get the flu, I'll ride it out and end up with an immunity to it and to similar flus.

Free vaccs v. socialism | 9:22 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

Socialism is more that just a limited government role like relatively few free vaccines in an epidemic. You transition to a socialism or marxism when a government steps beyond its bounds defined in the US constitution. The "human survival instinct" as seen in helping the poor and needy is perfectly standard practice in a democracy.
Our Founding Fathers understood that political ideology could infringe upon personal freedoms when not kept within common sense boundaries (massive spending, taking over/meddling in all kinds of private industry, etc, etc).However, some people see a what should be an affront to common sense as fear-mongering.

Anonymous | 10:28 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

Fox News and talk radio has incited our lunatic fringe once more with a contrived story of the sky falling.

I remember being vaccinated for polio in 1962 under a government program to end polio.

Was this creeping socialism or government working to improve the lives of future generations? How many of you fear polio today? This government program worked and generations have not known polio or small pox.

I have had so many vaccinations since then, I've lost count.

I can't relate to the cowardly behavior of adults today. A few million Americans get vaccinated yearly. Millions have received this vaccination with no problems.

Government rescues people, fights fires, fights crime, monitors for tidal waves and serves thousands of function successfully everyday. Regardless of what this doomsayer tell you, if you didn't have the US mail sending a letter would cost over a dollar.

Anonymous | 12:04 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

I went to the doctor for a routine check-up and my insurance company actually tried to weasel out of their end by calling it a "pre-existing condition." I wasn't even sick, I just went in for a check-up. So I had to spend an hour on the phone with them and they relented. This is common; insurance companies deny a claim, the patient wastes a ton of time on hold and arguing over their legalese policies, and finally they relent. THIS is the system some folks want to defend? For-profit healthcare is a terrible idea. It does not work. Time for a change.

John C. | 2:48 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

to:John C. | 5:34 p.m.: From the Webster’s Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary. Socialism “1 any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.”
Socialist: “one who advocates or practices socialism 2 a member of a socialist party or political group”
Not bad for someone you seem to think had no collage education. And no I don’t listen to talk radio, I don’t like it. Thanks for caring.

mark | 10:22 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

John C. I don't know if you have a collage education or not, and frankly I don't care. I do know that when you criticize some one as a "poor sad individual who didn’t have the courage to identify themselves" when you don't identify yourself says just about all the needs to be said about your grasp of logic.
In case you don't understand, John C. does not identify you.

The Sky Is Falling?? | 10:29 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009

To Anonymous: You can actually attribute "The sky is falling" mentality to the Right? Look around you. Ever since BO has taken over, it is nothing but one crisis after another. It's true that BO may not be responsible for manufacturing H1N1 vaccine, but he is definitely the one over-hyping this "pandemic". It is somewhat irresponsible to push everyone to get vaccinated and spreading disinformation if there isn't any way to get the vaccine out to those who want it. And, FYI, the CDC, a federal agency, claimed that there would be plenty of vaccine to go around. But they couldn't even get that right.

Bottom line is that Obama is completely inept in managing anything. First of all, there is no crisis, but he is too ignorant to figure that out. Second, he's just creating unnecessary fear and unrest amongst the ignorant masses. So to say that this has nothing to do with Obama is a ridiculous statement. Based on his track record so far, I don't want him making healthcare decisions for me. That's not chicken little; that's educated avoidance.

John C. | 3:07 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

mark | 10:22 a.m.: YOu are so right...I dare I say something after some one (I assume you now) has insulted me for my views. What was I thinking?... How dare I call some one on the carpet. I'll leave now in total shame...Not...

Flu Shots | 5:48 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

What can we expect starting with such a lame premise.

Flu shots do not have to be part of a national program egged on by a Democrat administration. I have taken part in a drive for flu shots (they cost 10) at a department store organised by a private medical company.

No one has said, unless I missed something, that flu shots are socialist just the idea that the feds have to organise it all for us.

You build a straw man and attack it. Why not give it an Obama badge and get permission from Uncle Sammy to inject it with more straw.

mark | 6:11 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

Uh, no John C. was not me. And no one said a word about your (alegedly) calling anyone one on the carpet. No I was just pointing out the idiocy of calling someone a coward for posting anonymously when you yourself are posting anonymously. Never mind, you don't get it anyway.

John C | 2:17 a.m. Nov. 7, 2009

Mark: Let it go man your too up tight....

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