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What's so new about the 'new atheism?'
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bandersen | 8:08 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
If you don't believe in God, then the very word 'virtue' is
subject to individual interpretation. Canibals think a 'virtue' to
eat human flesh! So it is with every other 'virtue' that the athiest
claims exist all on its own. They stand on very shallow ground with this
argument! They are going to need to use their 'intellect' to come up
with a different argument! Typical of those who are still searching to excuse
their passive view of life! Behavior excuses are most likely at the bottom of
this childish view!
Ella Mentry | 8:10 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Interesting. I would have loved to have been at this symposium! As out of
state LDS, we are bombarded with this "new atheism" all the time...
New Boss | 9:20 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Same as the old boss.
Historically the pendulem swings back and forth from secularism to religiosity. Nothing new here. Making a believer feel dumb for believing in a imaginary being is no less annoying then being made to feel like you are going to burn for eternity in a furnace, because of actions which only a few find immoral.
The sword also swings both ways, none are innocent.
Historically the pendulem swings back and forth from secularism to religiosity. Nothing new here. Making a believer feel dumb for believing in a imaginary being is no less annoying then being made to feel like you are going to burn for eternity in a furnace, because of actions which only a few find immoral.
The sword also swings both ways, none are innocent.
Comments continue below
Saw him on TV | 9:50 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
I just watched him on Greta Van Susteren, I don't usually watch her, but
had recorded the last 15 minutes of her show, to watch right before bed. I
actually watched it this morning, cause I thought, my husband might like
watching this. He has just released a book about life after death. He made a
very pertinent point, non-believers will say that the light and such is because
the brain is dying. His point, if the brain is dying, then how can these people
fully recover and go back to working challenging jobs. He really studies it
with his faith as a background, but takes since and physics and such to go
deeper. I think I would enjoy reading some of his books and then pass the one
about life after death, to my daughter after I die :) In other words, she has
lost her belief, but I kind of think that when my time comes, she is going to
dig deep and rediscover it.
John Z | 10:05 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Even if you do believe in God, "virtue" is still subject to
interpretation. Atheists and believers are still in the same boat.
New Atheism? | 10:34 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
When they confront me, I like to call them "Evangelical Atheists".
Try it someday and watch the reaction. :)
Anonymous | 10:44 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
I don't agree with Mr. Hitchens but He is downright humorous. His way of
describing things is so hilarious that it grabs my attention every time.
Jim | 11:10 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
New Atheism, Old Atheism. The Author is the same and Korihor is still alive and
well
proving a point | 11:55 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
The fact that there is a symposiam on how to deal with athiests just goes to
show their growing validiaty.
The Straw Men of D'Souza | 11:58 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009
"[the new atheism] wants to attack religion in the private sphere
also"
How exactly does any movement attack its opposition "in the private sphere"?
"The new atheists' goal is to 'let the religious parents breed 'em' and then win them over later with their arguments".
I have never read or heard about an atheist ever saying such a thing. This is just a stupid statement that destroys Dinesh's credibility. As an atheist, I can attest that most atheists recognize that the human race can only continue through reproduction. Many of us have strong family orientations. I have 7 children.
"the most prized virtues of atheists: science, the individual, the right to dissent and to criticize, the equal dignity of women, compassion and the abolition of slavery...all came into the West, and arguably into the world, because of Christianity."
First of all, that is simply not true. But even if it was possible, where did Christianity get these virtues? From the Greek philosophers and statesmen! The "West" received Aristotle's "Ethics" through the Arabs who preserved his thinking! More ironic is the fact that LDS believe to this day that Greek philosophy CORRUPTED Christianity!
How exactly does any movement attack its opposition "in the private sphere"?
"The new atheists' goal is to 'let the religious parents breed 'em' and then win them over later with their arguments".
I have never read or heard about an atheist ever saying such a thing. This is just a stupid statement that destroys Dinesh's credibility. As an atheist, I can attest that most atheists recognize that the human race can only continue through reproduction. Many of us have strong family orientations. I have 7 children.
"the most prized virtues of atheists: science, the individual, the right to dissent and to criticize, the equal dignity of women, compassion and the abolition of slavery...all came into the West, and arguably into the world, because of Christianity."
First of all, that is simply not true. But even if it was possible, where did Christianity get these virtues? From the Greek philosophers and statesmen! The "West" received Aristotle's "Ethics" through the Arabs who preserved his thinking! More ironic is the fact that LDS believe to this day that Greek philosophy CORRUPTED Christianity!
More of D'Souza's Straw Men | 12:20 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
"D'Souza said the flat earth idea is a legend and that educated people
knew it was spherical even in Christ's time and in ancient Greece."
Most atheists don't waste time in such ancient history. Instead, we point to the OFFICIAL actions of the Catholic Church against Galileo Galilei as the example of how ignorant religion retards science and progress. Today, the greatest obstacle to eliminating polio from the earth is religious paranoia. The greatest opposition to stem cell research is religious ignorance and superstition. Similar examples are legion.
"the atheist regimes of Stalin, Mao and the Nazis killed 100 million people"
All three of these despots were raised in deeply religious homes and schools and were religious most of their lives. If they turned from religion later in life, that does not demonstrate the evil of atheism; rather, it demonstrates the distorting influence of religion! True atheists are not merely failed religionists. Religion must take responsibility for failed religionists.
The political movements of all 3 were strongly endorsed, supported, and facilitated by religious groups and theologies (Nazi Reichskonkordat with the Holy See signed in1933. See Heschel’s “The Aryan Jesus”).
D'Souza is simply wrong.
Most atheists don't waste time in such ancient history. Instead, we point to the OFFICIAL actions of the Catholic Church against Galileo Galilei as the example of how ignorant religion retards science and progress. Today, the greatest obstacle to eliminating polio from the earth is religious paranoia. The greatest opposition to stem cell research is religious ignorance and superstition. Similar examples are legion.
"the atheist regimes of Stalin, Mao and the Nazis killed 100 million people"
All three of these despots were raised in deeply religious homes and schools and were religious most of their lives. If they turned from religion later in life, that does not demonstrate the evil of atheism; rather, it demonstrates the distorting influence of religion! True atheists are not merely failed religionists. Religion must take responsibility for failed religionists.
The political movements of all 3 were strongly endorsed, supported, and facilitated by religious groups and theologies (Nazi Reichskonkordat with the Holy See signed in1933. See Heschel’s “The Aryan Jesus”).
D'Souza is simply wrong.
Theists & Atheists | 1:45 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Both sides of the debate are ridiculous when it comes to the argument of who has
caused more human deaths. The fact is that nobody knows what will happen once
we reach a society where their is no or little belief in God. The vast majority
of history is full of theists. There are no examples of any major society where
the vast majority of the population was atheist. Even if our society does reach
a point where the vast majority of the population is atheist, it will not be
able to compare it against past societies because the society developed
differently so we will not be able to show if the difference is because of a non
belief in god, other factors or a combination. The entire argument is just
something to stir up emotions and not a real argument either way.
Anonymous | 2:00 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Don't write off atheism too quickly. If the LDS faith is false, then the
atheistic belief that nothing more happens once we're dead is the only
other fair afterlife option.
Lagomorph | 2:32 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
D'Souza’s rebuttals miss their mark.
That Christians have been motivated by their faith to work for equality and social justice is indisputable. However, in arguing the merits of faith, he fails to acknowledge that religion has sometimes worked against those same virtues. D'Souza’s argument on religion advancing the equality of women will carry more weight as soon as there are female popes and general authorities and the Taliban builds schools for girls instead of bombing them. How ironic that he made the women’s equality argument at an institution that is unashamedly patriarchic. On slavery, is he unaware that southern preachers quoted scripture to defend the practice? Ultimately, though, he does not answer Hitchens’ challenge– noting that religion has promoted virtue does not demonstrate that virtue could not have happened independent of religion. His failure to make the case is underscored by his recommendation that people of faith not use religious language to communicate their ideas. If ideas can be communicated in secular terms, they can be conceived in secular terms. He just made Hitchens’ point and lost his own. Faith is NOT REQUIRED to define and promote social good, even if it can and does.
That Christians have been motivated by their faith to work for equality and social justice is indisputable. However, in arguing the merits of faith, he fails to acknowledge that religion has sometimes worked against those same virtues. D'Souza’s argument on religion advancing the equality of women will carry more weight as soon as there are female popes and general authorities and the Taliban builds schools for girls instead of bombing them. How ironic that he made the women’s equality argument at an institution that is unashamedly patriarchic. On slavery, is he unaware that southern preachers quoted scripture to defend the practice? Ultimately, though, he does not answer Hitchens’ challenge– noting that religion has promoted virtue does not demonstrate that virtue could not have happened independent of religion. His failure to make the case is underscored by his recommendation that people of faith not use religious language to communicate their ideas. If ideas can be communicated in secular terms, they can be conceived in secular terms. He just made Hitchens’ point and lost his own. Faith is NOT REQUIRED to define and promote social good, even if it can and does.
Lagomorph | 2:34 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Continued...
The Anthropic Principle, the idea that the laws of the universe are precisely tuned for life, is not a winning argument for Intelligent Design or divine creation. It is simply what you would expect. Life is not going to happen where the conditions are not suitable. If anything, the principle supports an evolutionary interpretation. Natural selection would be expected to lead to life forms finely adapted to their universe. If the earth were a few million miles farther from the sun and thus a few degrees cooler, life here would be “precisely tuned” to those conditions.
The Anthropic Principle, the idea that the laws of the universe are precisely tuned for life, is not a winning argument for Intelligent Design or divine creation. It is simply what you would expect. Life is not going to happen where the conditions are not suitable. If anything, the principle supports an evolutionary interpretation. Natural selection would be expected to lead to life forms finely adapted to their universe. If the earth were a few million miles farther from the sun and thus a few degrees cooler, life here would be “precisely tuned” to those conditions.
Lagomorph | 2:35 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Continued...
The best rebuttal that D'Souza can produce for the third new atheist argument (religion is not just wrong, but dangerous) is that religion doesn’t have as high a body count as the alternative? What an odd way to argue that religion is good and beneficial, by tallying up the deaths it has caused. Shouldn’t a beneficial ethical system have zero fatalities? Notice how he cherry picks his figures, acknowledging the Crusades, but omitting them from his total. On the Inquisition, I suppose all the torture and the expulsion of Jews and Muslims from Spain in 1492 were fine, as long as no one was killed. And the Inquisition and Salem as unrepeatable today? Did he miss 9/11? Did he miss the Rwanda and Darfur genocides? It wasn’t fatal, but did he miss the fact that a man of demonstrated religious faith was denied a presidential nomination by D'Souza’s own political party largely because that man had the wrong faith for many in the party? That sounds a bit like Salem to me.
The best rebuttal that D'Souza can produce for the third new atheist argument (religion is not just wrong, but dangerous) is that religion doesn’t have as high a body count as the alternative? What an odd way to argue that religion is good and beneficial, by tallying up the deaths it has caused. Shouldn’t a beneficial ethical system have zero fatalities? Notice how he cherry picks his figures, acknowledging the Crusades, but omitting them from his total. On the Inquisition, I suppose all the torture and the expulsion of Jews and Muslims from Spain in 1492 were fine, as long as no one was killed. And the Inquisition and Salem as unrepeatable today? Did he miss 9/11? Did he miss the Rwanda and Darfur genocides? It wasn’t fatal, but did he miss the fact that a man of demonstrated religious faith was denied a presidential nomination by D'Souza’s own political party largely because that man had the wrong faith for many in the party? That sounds a bit like Salem to me.
ETB Quote | 2:51 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
My all-time favorite quote from President Ezra Taft Benson is as follows:
"Nothing is going to startle us more when we cross the veil to the other
side than to realize how well we know our Father and how familiar His face is to
us."
I just hope that I will have "let virtue garnish [my] thoughts unceasingly [so that my] confidence shall wax strong in the presence of God." With the Atonement of Jesus Christ on my side, I'm hopeful.
I just hope that I will have "let virtue garnish [my] thoughts unceasingly [so that my] confidence shall wax strong in the presence of God." With the Atonement of Jesus Christ on my side, I'm hopeful.
to -- bandersen | 8:08 a.m | 3:18 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
["If you don't believe in God, then the very word 'virtue'
is subject to individual interpretation. Canibals think a 'virtue' to
eat human flesh!"]
The bible says NOTHING about cannibalism or eating human flesh. so a belief in God or religion doesn't have anything to do with cannibalism.
why do religious people think that one can only get good morals if they believe in God?
do you realize that even though someone doesn't believe in God, the bible still has some good stories in it? do you think one has to believe in Aesop to get anything out of Aesops fables?
even if one doesn't believe in God, or that Jesus was His son, don't you think they consider him to be a great philosipher, and get knowledge and understanding from his teachings?
your problem is you think one has to follow everything in the bible.... so why aren't you out sacrificing children as the bible states? why aren't you out stoning women to death?
one does NOT have to believe in God to be a good person and have high morals - regardless of what your church has taught you...
The bible says NOTHING about cannibalism or eating human flesh. so a belief in God or religion doesn't have anything to do with cannibalism.
why do religious people think that one can only get good morals if they believe in God?
do you realize that even though someone doesn't believe in God, the bible still has some good stories in it? do you think one has to believe in Aesop to get anything out of Aesops fables?
even if one doesn't believe in God, or that Jesus was His son, don't you think they consider him to be a great philosipher, and get knowledge and understanding from his teachings?
your problem is you think one has to follow everything in the bible.... so why aren't you out sacrificing children as the bible states? why aren't you out stoning women to death?
one does NOT have to believe in God to be a good person and have high morals - regardless of what your church has taught you...
White House religion | 4:08 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
The new atheism is a reaction to having evangelicals, including President Bush,
in the White House who pushed their religious agenda, even to the disastrous
point of making a (to them) religiously justified war.
The frighteningly ignorant extreme evangelicals are still out there ready to do damage to our country. Unfortunately, Mormons tend to be knee-jerk right-wing voters without thinking about what's really going on, thereby making the situation worse.
D’Souza, by the way, is so inaccurate in his history claims that I can only hope that BYU students are better educated than he is.
The frighteningly ignorant extreme evangelicals are still out there ready to do damage to our country. Unfortunately, Mormons tend to be knee-jerk right-wing voters without thinking about what's really going on, thereby making the situation worse.
D’Souza, by the way, is so inaccurate in his history claims that I can only hope that BYU students are better educated than he is.
Jeff | 4:18 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Atheism is illogical.
How does one know there is no God? One may believe there is no God, but that is faith and is therefore a kind of anti-theism not atheism. To bear witness that there is no God requires some sort of mystical experience which would immediately cast doubt on itself.
To use something like evolution to prove the non-existence of God is circular reasoning. God and evolution are not mutually exclusive. To use the the evil that is sometimes done in the name of religion only proves that evil is sometimes done in the name of religion; it has nothing to do with the existence or non-existence of God.
To hear self-described atheists argue about their ability to be moral is almost laughable. What morals exist without God? There are none. If there is no God, there is neither good nor bad--only chance. If one is a Darwinian atheist, I suppose there can be survival of the fittest as a virtue, or continuation of the species, but everything else would be an artifical construct.
It's illogical.
How does one know there is no God? One may believe there is no God, but that is faith and is therefore a kind of anti-theism not atheism. To bear witness that there is no God requires some sort of mystical experience which would immediately cast doubt on itself.
To use something like evolution to prove the non-existence of God is circular reasoning. God and evolution are not mutually exclusive. To use the the evil that is sometimes done in the name of religion only proves that evil is sometimes done in the name of religion; it has nothing to do with the existence or non-existence of God.
To hear self-described atheists argue about their ability to be moral is almost laughable. What morals exist without God? There are none. If there is no God, there is neither good nor bad--only chance. If one is a Darwinian atheist, I suppose there can be survival of the fittest as a virtue, or continuation of the species, but everything else would be an artifical construct.
It's illogical.
Bill | 4:22 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
To Banderson 8:08
You have proven the point of the author of the article. That is all that needs to be said. Jesus Christ came into the world not to do away with the law but to fulfill it. Everything around you points to a supreme creator. Wouldn't it be great if you and I could someday create something so magnificent as this Earth and the universe surrounding it.
I don't need a scientist to tell me how this or that is done. I look around every day and thank God that I'm a live in a world that is so beautiful to surpass anything some man could dream up. There is no utopia that you want. I'm grateful to be living when the heavens are open. You will find a way to belittle my faith and to say how naive I am. Gee and I thought you would be more than that.
One must have a strong belief in God to find a place in the world to come. Hopefully, when we reach the other side you will see how you have wasted your life in proclaiming your atheism.
You have proven the point of the author of the article. That is all that needs to be said. Jesus Christ came into the world not to do away with the law but to fulfill it. Everything around you points to a supreme creator. Wouldn't it be great if you and I could someday create something so magnificent as this Earth and the universe surrounding it.
I don't need a scientist to tell me how this or that is done. I look around every day and thank God that I'm a live in a world that is so beautiful to surpass anything some man could dream up. There is no utopia that you want. I'm grateful to be living when the heavens are open. You will find a way to belittle my faith and to say how naive I am. Gee and I thought you would be more than that.
One must have a strong belief in God to find a place in the world to come. Hopefully, when we reach the other side you will see how you have wasted your life in proclaiming your atheism.
Damn the Torpedos | 4:35 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Religious peoplle will follow their leaders over a cliff, regardless of the
truth. Even Jesus called them sheep. As such, they aren't interested in
knowing what the truth is, only that they obey and follow the leader.
Bill | 4:35 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
TO White House Religion
Actually the author is correct. Nazism where Hitler was basically an athesist tried to exterminate the Jewish religion. Mao and Stalin both confirmed athesists took the lives of millions of Christians within their own countries. If you really do a study of warfare through out the ages you will find it was more about greed than anything else. It had nothing to do with religion. Yet, to the unschooled person this tends to be missed. The Romans ruled the world without any type of religion at all. Their wars was for the sole purpose of taking lands that did no harm to them. The same for the Greeks and any other power. It had nothing at all to do with religion. They say their Gods and what were their Gods. Nothing that even comes close to the world today.
No the author is very correct in his assessment. If you take and read the Bible you will find where the Lord directed the House of Israel to destroy the Cannanites because they were a wicked people. Some like you will say this for justifiable religious bigotry. Was it since you don't believe in God?
Actually the author is correct. Nazism where Hitler was basically an athesist tried to exterminate the Jewish religion. Mao and Stalin both confirmed athesists took the lives of millions of Christians within their own countries. If you really do a study of warfare through out the ages you will find it was more about greed than anything else. It had nothing to do with religion. Yet, to the unschooled person this tends to be missed. The Romans ruled the world without any type of religion at all. Their wars was for the sole purpose of taking lands that did no harm to them. The same for the Greeks and any other power. It had nothing at all to do with religion. They say their Gods and what were their Gods. Nothing that even comes close to the world today.
No the author is very correct in his assessment. If you take and read the Bible you will find where the Lord directed the House of Israel to destroy the Cannanites because they were a wicked people. Some like you will say this for justifiable religious bigotry. Was it since you don't believe in God?
to - Jeff | 4:18 p.m | 4:44 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
["What morals exist without God? There are none. If there is no God, there
is neither good nor bad--only chance."]
all morals exist without God. just because you say there are none doesn't make it true, just as you say there is a God yet that doesn't make it true.
belief in God is illogical - and the result of primitive man's need for hope. and it still goes on.
it's illogical.
all morals exist without God. just because you say there are none doesn't make it true, just as you say there is a God yet that doesn't make it true.
belief in God is illogical - and the result of primitive man's need for hope. and it still goes on.
it's illogical.
to -- Bill | 4:22 p.m | 4:47 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
["One must have a strong belief in God to find a place in the world to
come. Hopefully, when we reach the other side you will see how you have wasted
your life in proclaiming your atheism."]
and won't you be surprised when everyone goes to the same place regardless of how much they prayed or didn't drink, or gamble or any of the other 50 million "sins" you insist are so terrible?
and won't you be even more shocked when gays have a higher place in heaven because you spent your life degrading them and making them second class citizens..
and won't you be surprised when everyone goes to the same place regardless of how much they prayed or didn't drink, or gamble or any of the other 50 million "sins" you insist are so terrible?
and won't you be even more shocked when gays have a higher place in heaven because you spent your life degrading them and making them second class citizens..
Thinker | 5:12 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
The weakest argument, in my opinion, of the aetheists is that religion is bad
because people, at times, use religion to justify heinous acts. I would not
encourage someone to be aetheist because of religious zealots like the Taliban
any more than I would encourage someone to be religious because of Hitler or
Stalin. If someone uses an ideology or theology to do heinous acts, whether it
is aetheism or religion, that doesn't mean the tool they used is bad, but
rather the way they used it.
To me, it's sad when we fail to respect each other's ideologies or theologies and it's dangerous when we attack them. Nothing wrong with a healthy debate, but villifying religion or aetheism will only serve to justify attrocities against believers in either camp.
To me, it's sad when we fail to respect each other's ideologies or theologies and it's dangerous when we attack them. Nothing wrong with a healthy debate, but villifying religion or aetheism will only serve to justify attrocities against believers in either camp.
god(s) are illogical | 5:24 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
There is no god that isn't created by the human mind. If one studies the
history of religions, one becomes aware that one can trace the origins of any
god and see how humans have manipulated and changed their beliefs. Religions
are born, evolve, and some die. Remember there is no one is NOT an atheist as
far as Zeus, Hera, Poseidon and friends goes.
John Pack Lambert | 5:40 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
To the 1:45 commentator,
Why do we not just look at societies that have experieced that, like Russia. Death rates far exceeding birth rates, abandonment of family members, drunks dieing in the streets.
Or maybe we should take a look at France. Thousands of elderly people dieing in Paris as their children abandon them when they go on hollidy in the countryside.
This may be a little flippant. However, there are plenty of countries from China to Albania where religion has been driven underground and suppressed, abandoned and marginalized. Japan is another example, as is the Netherlands. We can see where we would head by taking that role by considering the socio-economic situations in these various countries.
Why do we not just look at societies that have experieced that, like Russia. Death rates far exceeding birth rates, abandonment of family members, drunks dieing in the streets.
Or maybe we should take a look at France. Thousands of elderly people dieing in Paris as their children abandon them when they go on hollidy in the countryside.
This may be a little flippant. However, there are plenty of countries from China to Albania where religion has been driven underground and suppressed, abandoned and marginalized. Japan is another example, as is the Netherlands. We can see where we would head by taking that role by considering the socio-economic situations in these various countries.
Anonymous | 6:32 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Why "engage them" at all. A contentious tug-of-war is not a virtuous
activity.
Jeff | 7:00 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
@4:18 pm
"all morals exist without God. just because you say there are none doesn't make it true, just as you say there is a God yet that doesn't make it true."
What morals exist without God? Sexual morality? Restrictions against killing? stealing? incest? How do these exist without God? There are laws and conventions against them, but no moral power. If there is no God and humans are only animals, then what keeps us from behaving like other animals? Either morality comes from a superior being (God), or it is an artificial construct. (Granting that the morality of ensuring the fitness and propagation of the species could be conceded to evolution.)
Furthermore, I grant that my saying God exists (or your saying He does not exist) has no effect whatsoever on His existence or non-existence. In a court of law, however, I could be called as a witness of His existence. Whether the jury accepts my witness as valid doesn't alter the truth that He exists.
Still further, speaking as a former atheist, I can say that anyone can be a witness of God's existence--even former atheists.
"all morals exist without God. just because you say there are none doesn't make it true, just as you say there is a God yet that doesn't make it true."
What morals exist without God? Sexual morality? Restrictions against killing? stealing? incest? How do these exist without God? There are laws and conventions against them, but no moral power. If there is no God and humans are only animals, then what keeps us from behaving like other animals? Either morality comes from a superior being (God), or it is an artificial construct. (Granting that the morality of ensuring the fitness and propagation of the species could be conceded to evolution.)
Furthermore, I grant that my saying God exists (or your saying He does not exist) has no effect whatsoever on His existence or non-existence. In a court of law, however, I could be called as a witness of His existence. Whether the jury accepts my witness as valid doesn't alter the truth that He exists.
Still further, speaking as a former atheist, I can say that anyone can be a witness of God's existence--even former atheists.
Anonymous | 7:28 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Seriously? Canibal cultures didn't have gods? Since when? And let me get
this straight...in the atheist world morality is a morass of conflicting
individualism, a free for all where supposedly everyone wants to do harm?. So
religion is what....anything mormon leaders have ever said sticks forever...none
of this 'personal opinion' nonsense?
Agnostic | 8:04 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
Rather than try to con one another, let us be honest; I don't know and
neither do you! But, I belive it helps to think good thoughts, wish for good
things and try to stay positive. These we can do on either side of the line. so
there is no real good reason for trying to make one another come over to iether
side. Just be happy where you are at and leave well enough alone.
Humanist (form of Agnostisism) | 8:51 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009
The general belief is that people should do the right thing for no other reason
than the fact that it is the right thing, and that the more people who do the
right thing the smoother humanity functions. Not doing it (charitable acts,
donations of time and money, being honest in all things etc....) because god (if
he does exist) will be mad if we don't. Not to steal from the LDS faith,
but "Choose The Right" is a powerfull ideal that more people should
practice to make our world a better place.... for all of us....atheist and
theist alike.
freethought | 9:18 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009
Upon leaving the LDS over thirty years ago, I believe that I have finally gotten
my name off of the church rolls. (Does anyone know for sure?) I asked for
excommunication so often thatI grew tired and did not care any longer what the
"chuch" recognized. I am a proud atheist and find all religions
annoying if not downright ridiculous in their pursuit to convince. I sincerely
hope that humankind can someday do away with this superstiition and live as one.
WWJW?
Anonymous | 10:02 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009
["What morals exist without God? Sexual morality? Restrictions against
killing? stealing? incest? How do these exist without God? There are laws and
conventions against them, but no moral power"]
what? where do you get these ideas? simple civil rights define killing as bad. same for stealing, incest, etc. God does NOT = morality. Look at all the crimes commited in His name. Read the old testament. It's FULL of immoral acts.
["If there is no God and humans are only animals, then what keeps us from behaving like other animals?"]
the ability to reason and the undertand how we impact others. Compassion. etc.
does religion teach these things? yes. and so did greek philosiphers long before Jesus.
["In a court of law, however, I could be called as a witness of His existence"]
and if you were crossexamined, the question would be "have you met God face to face." you would HAVE to answer "no" or you would be lying. that would blow your case out of the water because you would be going by faith, not actual encounter.
["Either morality comes from a superior being (God), or it is an artificial construct"]
why is it "artificial"? it's real.
what? where do you get these ideas? simple civil rights define killing as bad. same for stealing, incest, etc. God does NOT = morality. Look at all the crimes commited in His name. Read the old testament. It's FULL of immoral acts.
["If there is no God and humans are only animals, then what keeps us from behaving like other animals?"]
the ability to reason and the undertand how we impact others. Compassion. etc.
does religion teach these things? yes. and so did greek philosiphers long before Jesus.
["In a court of law, however, I could be called as a witness of His existence"]
and if you were crossexamined, the question would be "have you met God face to face." you would HAVE to answer "no" or you would be lying. that would blow your case out of the water because you would be going by faith, not actual encounter.
["Either morality comes from a superior being (God), or it is an artificial construct"]
why is it "artificial"? it's real.
TO: Jeff | 10:09 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009
As atheists we don't go around saying "we know there is no god".
We say "we beleive, based on facts, that there is no god".
There is a difference. We don't need to have faith.
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true"
There is a difference. We don't need to have faith.
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true"
Michael | 10:15 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009
Religion itself is not idiotic. Unfortunately, however, too many religious
people have made the rest of us look like complete fools. If I have to hear one
more Christian say that there is no way the Earth is more than 6,000 years old
despite indisputable evidence to the contrary, I am going to scream!
If you want to tell others that you're a Mormon/Christian these days, you almost have to include the statement, "But I'm not insane."
Mormonism and science CAN coexist, but not if we're unwilling to accept the new light and knowledge God provides us through science, and definitely not if we take the scriptures 100% literally.
***
D’Souza's claims that religious violence accounts for just over 2,000 murders in modern history. I'm pretty sure that more than that died just in the 9/11 attacks which were as religiously-motivated as violence gets.
Furthermore, D’Souza refers to the Nazi regime which killed millions of jews as an atheist regime. Nice try. I know Hitler wasn't a formal cleric, but wasn't his goal the rise of a white Protestant Christian super race?
If you want to tell others that you're a Mormon/Christian these days, you almost have to include the statement, "But I'm not insane."
Mormonism and science CAN coexist, but not if we're unwilling to accept the new light and knowledge God provides us through science, and definitely not if we take the scriptures 100% literally.
***
D’Souza's claims that religious violence accounts for just over 2,000 murders in modern history. I'm pretty sure that more than that died just in the 9/11 attacks which were as religiously-motivated as violence gets.
Furthermore, D’Souza refers to the Nazi regime which killed millions of jews as an atheist regime. Nice try. I know Hitler wasn't a formal cleric, but wasn't his goal the rise of a white Protestant Christian super race?
Anonymous | 10:30 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009
@Jeff,
An invisible, angry, sky-living father figure, who promises to scold sinful children, is a far more illogical source of morality in my opinion.
Desire to help and other living things is an innate characteristics of human beings. We aren't animals with an angry god looking over our shoulders. We differ greatly from animals regardless if there is a god or not. You have a very pessimistic view on mankind.
An invisible, angry, sky-living father figure, who promises to scold sinful children, is a far more illogical source of morality in my opinion.
Desire to help and other living things is an innate characteristics of human beings. We aren't animals with an angry god looking over our shoulders. We differ greatly from animals regardless if there is a god or not. You have a very pessimistic view on mankind.
Anonymous | 10:49 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009
The appeal of Atheism is you don't have they quandary explaining why a
loving god gives innocent children cancer to test people's faith. You
don't lay awake wondering why a loving god let millions of Jews, Ukrainians
and Armenians die in genocides.
Ernest T. Bass | 11:00 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009
This is great!! New Atheism is much better than Old Atheism. Just like New Coke
was better than the original Coke.
Anonymous | 11:03 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009
For this argument let me be the atheist.
Can we use atheism to advocate for sexual morality?
Yes, we can.
Kids, you have a long life before you. Look around. You will notice. as I did in high school, that having early sex with many partners can ruin you. You can't go to college when you have child support payments. Those studs in your school, believe me, they won't succeed without massive parental intervention in their lives.
Girls, the greatest statistical determinant of a young woman's success in life is not having sex early or often.
As a man and human, let me clue you in on a secret. Men nor people value things that come easy for them or are free. It's working that creates value. If you are sexually easy, the next day, the guy will be asking how many other guys have you been easy with. He's not hanging around. This is male behavior.
Do you your really want some STD that you will have to examplain when you finally met someone you love?
In life, discipline is an attribute that will bring you success.
How did I do?
Can we use atheism to advocate for sexual morality?
Yes, we can.
Kids, you have a long life before you. Look around. You will notice. as I did in high school, that having early sex with many partners can ruin you. You can't go to college when you have child support payments. Those studs in your school, believe me, they won't succeed without massive parental intervention in their lives.
Girls, the greatest statistical determinant of a young woman's success in life is not having sex early or often.
As a man and human, let me clue you in on a secret. Men nor people value things that come easy for them or are free. It's working that creates value. If you are sexually easy, the next day, the guy will be asking how many other guys have you been easy with. He's not hanging around. This is male behavior.
Do you your really want some STD that you will have to examplain when you finally met someone you love?
In life, discipline is an attribute that will bring you success.
How did I do?
Theist vs. Atheist | 11:09 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009
Theist: I am faithful to my spouse because God commanded "Thou shalt not
commit adultery". If I sin, God will punish me.
Atheist: I am faithful to my spouse because I promised my spouse I would be faithful.
Theist: I help the poor and needy because God commanded me to. If I don't, God will punish me either immediately, or in the next life.
Atheist: I help the poor and needy because they need help.
Theist: I am honest because God will punish me if I am dishonest.
Atheist: I am honest because being honest is inherently real, rational, reasonable, and good. Dealing in delusions, lies, and irrationality promotes anxiety, depression, exploitation, and violence.
Theist: God also commanded me to "preach the gospel", and to "kill the infidel" and to do whatever it takes so that "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ"
Atheist: Please see my previous comment on honesty. Please put the gun down and take your meds.
Atheist: I am faithful to my spouse because I promised my spouse I would be faithful.
Theist: I help the poor and needy because God commanded me to. If I don't, God will punish me either immediately, or in the next life.
Atheist: I help the poor and needy because they need help.
Theist: I am honest because God will punish me if I am dishonest.
Atheist: I am honest because being honest is inherently real, rational, reasonable, and good. Dealing in delusions, lies, and irrationality promotes anxiety, depression, exploitation, and violence.
Theist: God also commanded me to "preach the gospel", and to "kill the infidel" and to do whatever it takes so that "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ"
Atheist: Please see my previous comment on honesty. Please put the gun down and take your meds.
What's In a Name? | 11:30 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009
As a child, my parents taught me to believe in Santa.
I exerted great effort to be good so that I would receive the toys I requested in my annual letter to Santa. Most of the time, I was pretty good, and most of the time, I got close to what I asked for in my letter.
As I matured, I learned that Santa was not real (sorry, Virginia).
As a youth, I was also taught that Jesus and God were real, and that I would be "blessed" with a great life after I die if I would be a good person by obeying them (well, really by obeying the men who claimed to be their spokesmen).
Because I no longer believe that jesus and god are real (in the "real" sense), I am called an "atheist". Believers are "theists" and non-believers are opposite: "a-theists".
What do we call people who believe in Santa? Credulous? Naive?
Now that I don't believe in Santa, call me the opposite: "acredulous", or smart, clever, and intelligent.
The same goes for my no longer believing in god.
I exerted great effort to be good so that I would receive the toys I requested in my annual letter to Santa. Most of the time, I was pretty good, and most of the time, I got close to what I asked for in my letter.
As I matured, I learned that Santa was not real (sorry, Virginia).
As a youth, I was also taught that Jesus and God were real, and that I would be "blessed" with a great life after I die if I would be a good person by obeying them (well, really by obeying the men who claimed to be their spokesmen).
Because I no longer believe that jesus and god are real (in the "real" sense), I am called an "atheist". Believers are "theists" and non-believers are opposite: "a-theists".
What do we call people who believe in Santa? Credulous? Naive?
Now that I don't believe in Santa, call me the opposite: "acredulous", or smart, clever, and intelligent.
The same goes for my no longer believing in god.
Sarah | 11:34 a.m. Nov. 6, 2009
Who cares?
If believing God makes you happy and helps you get through life and loss, then by all means believe in God.
If not believing in God makes you happy and helps you get through life and loss, then by all means don't believe in God.
A good person is a good person. I (a devout LDS) believe that a religious person can be seriously lacking in morals if they choose it. Being religious on the surface and not in the heart will bring you no closer to God than if you had no faith at all.
And on the other side of the spectrum, there are many wonderful people who either believe in no God or at least a different version of him than I do. Believers in God are not the only people on earth who have respect and love for others. Christians are not the only people capable of doing good and wonderful (altruistic) things.
So really if you Christians out there are spewing hate on these boards you are NOT Christian. And atheists: Just because you don't believe in God doesn't mean we shouldn't.
Let's all just get along.
If believing God makes you happy and helps you get through life and loss, then by all means believe in God.
If not believing in God makes you happy and helps you get through life and loss, then by all means don't believe in God.
A good person is a good person. I (a devout LDS) believe that a religious person can be seriously lacking in morals if they choose it. Being religious on the surface and not in the heart will bring you no closer to God than if you had no faith at all.
And on the other side of the spectrum, there are many wonderful people who either believe in no God or at least a different version of him than I do. Believers in God are not the only people on earth who have respect and love for others. Christians are not the only people capable of doing good and wonderful (altruistic) things.
So really if you Christians out there are spewing hate on these boards you are NOT Christian. And atheists: Just because you don't believe in God doesn't mean we shouldn't.
Let's all just get along.
The Atheist | 12:42 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009
Sarah,
I wish we could get along. Unfortunately, my days are often interrupted by Mormon missionaries, Jehovah's Witnesses, or Baptists knocking and telling me some mythological deity is going to punish me if I don't join their Church.
I go to work and a coworker leaves a Book of Mormon on my desk. I get online and an advertisement tells me I can't be "truly happy" without becoming a Mormon.
A news report on Prop 8 reminds me that Mormons don't really want to "get along" - they want to force others to live by THEIR definition of "marriage".
Flying on a business trip, a Mormon tries to ask about my family and gives me a pamphlet that says my family won’t be happy without “the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ". My family has been very happy without that.
I call my wife from the hotel. A Gideon's Bible is in the drawer under the phone. She tells me my daughter came home in tears because the local Mormon kids said god hates her because she wants to become an astronaut.
Enough!
Atheists are fighting back. Religious people can’t take it!
I wish we could get along. Unfortunately, my days are often interrupted by Mormon missionaries, Jehovah's Witnesses, or Baptists knocking and telling me some mythological deity is going to punish me if I don't join their Church.
I go to work and a coworker leaves a Book of Mormon on my desk. I get online and an advertisement tells me I can't be "truly happy" without becoming a Mormon.
A news report on Prop 8 reminds me that Mormons don't really want to "get along" - they want to force others to live by THEIR definition of "marriage".
Flying on a business trip, a Mormon tries to ask about my family and gives me a pamphlet that says my family won’t be happy without “the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ". My family has been very happy without that.
I call my wife from the hotel. A Gideon's Bible is in the drawer under the phone. She tells me my daughter came home in tears because the local Mormon kids said god hates her because she wants to become an astronaut.
Enough!
Atheists are fighting back. Religious people can’t take it!
@Jeff | 12:51 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009
Jeff | 4:18 p.m. wrote:
"Atheism is illogical. How does one know there is no God?"
You are uneducated and filled with the nonsense propaganda they hype you up with in sunday school.
Atheism means "without belief in god". It is not an affirmation of any positive belief, knowledge, faith or "inkling" about god. It is a humble admission of the ABSENCE of any belief, knowledge, faith or "inkling" about god.
It is, therefore, illogical for you to claim that atheism "is faith and is therefore a kind of anti-theism not atheism." Moreover, such a claim makes your comment disingenuous and hypocritical.
"Atheism is illogical. How does one know there is no God?"
You are uneducated and filled with the nonsense propaganda they hype you up with in sunday school.
Atheism means "without belief in god". It is not an affirmation of any positive belief, knowledge, faith or "inkling" about god. It is a humble admission of the ABSENCE of any belief, knowledge, faith or "inkling" about god.
It is, therefore, illogical for you to claim that atheism "is faith and is therefore a kind of anti-theism not atheism." Moreover, such a claim makes your comment disingenuous and hypocritical.
Sarah to Atheist | 1:01 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009
Well I'm sorry you've become a target for proselyters.
My days are also interrupted by atheists and other Mormon haters that I am crazy, brainwashed, bigoted and a member of a cult. Fellow Christians also tell me that I will not go to heaven if I don't leave my church.
I go to work and hear about how silly my beliefs are. I've yet to see an onlne advertisement for the Mormon church, but I suppose I'm not looking for them. I also NEVER leave BOMs around. I answer religious questions only when asked. I'm not the only one.
The 200 comments on an article about Prop 8 tells me how evil my religion is because we're so hateful. I have gay relatives and friends but how is that possible, being so bigoted?
On business trips (with non-LDS co-workers) I'm constantly asked "you're from Utah? How many moms do you have?" ha ha haven't heard that one before.
Growing up outside of Utah I would come home crying because the other kids teased me because I'm Mormon.
You're not the only one who suffers.
My days are also interrupted by atheists and other Mormon haters that I am crazy, brainwashed, bigoted and a member of a cult. Fellow Christians also tell me that I will not go to heaven if I don't leave my church.
I go to work and hear about how silly my beliefs are. I've yet to see an onlne advertisement for the Mormon church, but I suppose I'm not looking for them. I also NEVER leave BOMs around. I answer religious questions only when asked. I'm not the only one.
The 200 comments on an article about Prop 8 tells me how evil my religion is because we're so hateful. I have gay relatives and friends but how is that possible, being so bigoted?
On business trips (with non-LDS co-workers) I'm constantly asked "you're from Utah? How many moms do you have?" ha ha haven't heard that one before.
Growing up outside of Utah I would come home crying because the other kids teased me because I'm Mormon.
You're not the only one who suffers.
Sarah to Atheist | 1:06 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009
My whole point was not who suffers more.
It wouldn't be fair of me to say that Atheists and gay people (and other Christians) are all evil and hateful simply because I've been treated so badly by them. People throw their religions and lifestyles at me too. But it is also not fair of Atheists to "fight back" by trying to convince us that we are stupid to believe in a higher power.
I've done nothing to you. I've never knocked on your door or given you a book of mormon or told you to believe in God or your children will burn in a fiery pit. I don't care WHAT you believe or in WHO as long as you are a good person and you treat others with respect. I guess it's silly of me to expect the same in return.
I still stand by my unanswerable question: Why can't we all just get along?
It wouldn't be fair of me to say that Atheists and gay people (and other Christians) are all evil and hateful simply because I've been treated so badly by them. People throw their religions and lifestyles at me too. But it is also not fair of Atheists to "fight back" by trying to convince us that we are stupid to believe in a higher power.
I've done nothing to you. I've never knocked on your door or given you a book of mormon or told you to believe in God or your children will burn in a fiery pit. I don't care WHAT you believe or in WHO as long as you are a good person and you treat others with respect. I guess it's silly of me to expect the same in return.
I still stand by my unanswerable question: Why can't we all just get along?
To Sarah | 9:11 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009
Seriously? Honestly now...when was the last time an atheist knocked on your door
trying to convince you to not believe? Have you EVER had a 'mormon
hater' knock on your door? Or.....do you find differing opinions by people
who freely choose to come here on comment boards like these and then somehow
equate it to proseletizing?
Anonymous | 6:22 p.m. Nov. 7, 2009
Why can't we all just get along? Why can't your organazation quit
knocking on my door?
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