Deseret News | State student enrollment up 12,260 kids from last year

Reader comments
State student enrollment up 12,260 kids from last year

Size matters | 2:23 p.m. Nov. 4, 2009

They don't comment on class sizes which I believe are inaccurate. I've heard they count everyone with a degree, not just teachers. I Substitute Teach grades 6-12. There are usually at least 34 students in a class room.
Our enrollments just keep going up. How will we ever keep up when we are last in per pupil spending in the nation? Administrators are overpaid! The schools I am in cut classified employeees first.

Anonymous | 2:30 p.m. Nov. 4, 2009

That's right. Bring on more trailers. Good training for their future life. This is ridiculous.

The legislature can build themselves new offices with the latest and greatest technology, yet we house our kids in trailers.

Pathetic and shameful.

Sad really.

Orem Parent | 2:33 p.m. Nov. 4, 2009

As soon as Alpine asks for yet another bond to be passed, the masses will call for the district to be split again.

Honestly it is probably time for Orem to form its own school district anyway. Maybe combine with Provo to get a decent sized district.

Comments continue below

Re Orem Parent: | 3:05 p.m. Nov. 4, 2009

Provo would be glad to combine because they need Orem to support their economically distressed district. Are you sure that is what you want to do? You won't be better off for it.

Anonymous | 3:52 p.m. Nov. 4, 2009

You singles out here, work harder, there are more for you to educate. Once, I never even thought about the extra taxes government took from me to cut taxes for others. It took conservatives to awaken me about having my income redistributed.

Skitarghee | 5:02 p.m. Nov. 4, 2009

Growth rate just over 2%? Oh, no! Wait...I think our growth has averaged just over 2 per cent for decades. It is lumpy. Some areas grow rapidly and others languish. What is new is that it is news to our papers. Just pray for faster growth otherwise the Social Security System will fail before 47 year olds get their first dime out the scheme.

Class Size Reports | 5:22 p.m. Nov. 4, 2009

don't give a realistic picture. Add 10-12 students to the reported average for what is happening in your typical core class. You see they count counselors, specialty classes etc. as teachers which brings down this reported average. See a US History teacher with 42 kids and a counselor with 1 TA lets the school report a 21.5 class size average in our sample. But it is more likely your student is in the class with 42 rather than the 1 TA. Anyone that really looks closely at schools know that the class size average in any secondary school does not give an accurate reflection of what is going on in the school with class size. Your son and daughter if not in a niche class like Physics or in Special Ed or a TA for that counselor is probably sitting in a core English class with 40 (or more) students.

Here we go... | 7:38 p.m. Nov. 4, 2009

Here we go again. It's a few months before the legislature starts and the education freaks are at it again. I believe in a sound education. I love paying a small amount of taxes to have my children as well as others educated. But please, don't make up stories, bloat stories, twist and twirl stories before EVERY legislature period so that you can get more money. In a time when the US Congress is spending out of their heads and many states are broke and spending their kids future, let's do something different in Utah. Let's not manipulate the numbers, twist arms, cry and whine. Let's find out what you need and make you fall in line like every other person in this state who needs money. I work 5 jobs because of this economy. We are in serious jeopardy of losing our home, our livelihood, cars etc. while your leaders are making 6 digit figures. I don't feel sorry for you. Don't feel sorry for me either. Just grow up and deal with it.

Basketball | 8:11 p.m. Nov. 4, 2009

Kaysville Jr. High has a dynasty of a boasketball program. They are 5-time defending district champs and looking good for their sixth in a row this year!

Anonymous | 8:18 p.m. Nov. 4, 2009

As a former teacher in Utah I can attest to the fact that there are a lot of things that need to be done to improve teaching. Yes classes are crowded and students do not have art, music, and physical education teachers at the elementary level. Perhaps the most troubling fact is that principals in many of the schools do not observe teachers teaching and do not give any training for their employees to address areas of deficiency. I think administrators need to provide more supervision and mentoring to see that children are being prepared for the 21st century.

To Basketball | 9:22 p.m. Nov. 4, 2009

Legacy B-ball is new this year, ready to de-throne Kaysville. Go WOLVES

Anonymous | 9:27 p.m. Nov. 4, 2009

Administrators don't observe and give input to teachers because most of their training is so outdated it wouldn't make a difference or they do not know how to give feedback. The teachers doing well should be the ones to observe and give feedback and get paid for doing so. Also, fire half the employees at the school. Seriously. Pay the good teachers more, get rid of the lazy employees. Run the school like a business, with bench marks and high expectations for teachers AS well as students. Parents stay out of it. Your job is to read to your Kindergartner and turn off the tube and hand the kids books so they'll have a fighting chance.

Debbie | 10:25 p.m. Nov. 4, 2009

I think sometimes some of you comment just to hear yourself think. Even though you have no idea what you are talking about you comment like you are all have Masters in education. If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all!

truthwatchertoo | 8:30 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

What is the rest of the story on education funding we are not hearing enough about? The true cost of funding all components of public employee compensation, including the underfunded Utah Retirement System defined benefit pension plan. There are numerous stories about how Utah faces an $850 million budget deficit, but very little is said about the unfunded pension program, which some have stated is a big as $6.5 billion. This underfunding is for services already rendered by our state employees, including teachers. How will our State Legislature handle this unfunded commitment? The budget deficit issue is a very large dark hole right now.

I do not know how much the underfunding really is, but to put things in perspective, there are 560,000+/- students in the school system. If the educator component of underfunding is $1.0 billion, then for each student enrolled in our public schools tax payers face a $1,786 liability for educator services already rendered.

Compare this liability with the state’s average M&O spending per student; in 2006 it was $5,683.

Go Figure!

Anonymous | 9:04 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

Don't believe the underfunded retirement myth. The whole fund was down in 2008 because parts of it are tied to the stock market. I would guess that a large chunk of that deficit is already gone. The stock market is coming back now and the deficit is shrinking.

Utah has the best managed retirement system in the country. However there are a few legislators that are trying to spread myths so they can demolish public education.

Don't believe the hype.

The state puts the money into the retirement fund as the teacher works. It is part of the paycheck. It is also one of the last things that keeps people in the profession.

Hey Debbie | 9:47 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

Hey Debbie, I do have a Masters in education, does that mean I get to make a comment?

Anonymous | 10:42 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

if you just go to the utah retirement systems (URS) website you can see their reports for the last several years. The fund has been in great shape except for 2008. Like someone above posted, most of that is quickly being erased as the stock market improves.

I sure hope the legislature doesn't start putting their hands on the state retirement fund. That could get very ugly, very quickly.

Retirement for teachers is about the only thing they have left. They aren't in it for the prestige, pay, or respect. That's for sure.

truthwatchertoo | 11:49 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

Well, I disagree with anonymous about the retirement Myth. Perhaps he/she should read the Institutional Investor article in the November 2009 issue: Lessons Learned: Colleges Lose Billions in Endowments. Be it a state retirement system or an endowment, the large money managers are struggling. Just because the DOW shows some strength, doesn't mean a retirement portfolio investing Billions of dollars in multiple instruments and programs tracks the DOW.

Furthermore, any new money, and in Utah it is close to 15% of wages paid, that is being set aside for retirement, defined benefit and defined contribution programs. These are for the obligations incurred today, not yesterday. The underfunding is for yesterday's obligation.

As a perspective, for each of the 27,350 licensed school district employees statewide, for each $1B underfunding for these employees it would be a $36,550 shortfall. Paid off over 5 years would be about an 11% annual required increase in funding for teachers compensation, with no increase in take home pay.

Underfunding is no myth. There is a pension problem. It will have to be resolved.

lost in DC | 12:19 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

defined benefit pensions are going the way of the dinosaur. The discussion here concerning the education retirement plan is a good example why.

Anonymous | 1:10 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

Truthwatchertoo sounds like my local republican legislator.

There is no underfunding for yesterday's obligation once the market stabilizes. Just look at the history of the URS. It is a well managed fund that is very stable. Before 2008 it was taking in more than it was giving out. This is a small bump in the long history of a well managed fund.

The legislators need to stay out of it and let the professionals do their job.

Thinking Positive??? | 2:34 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

"The legislators need to stay out of it and let the professionals do their job."

Uh....good luck with that....It hasn't happened yet, on any issue.

truthwatchertoo | 2:36 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

If the URS defined benefit plan is doing so well, why did the Legislature have to increase the funding percentage in 2005/2006...a time when out-sized investment returns were easily achieved. They just took more money out of the taxpayers pockets to make it look good.

Now that investment returns have normalized at much lower levels and portfolio losses are realized, not just paper losses, the actuaries are going to have to change their underlying analysis and assumptions to determine what the REAL obligation or funding liability is for URS.

Watch out! Your taxes will go up and your services will go down. Class size will not shrink, it will increase.

The defined benefit program is a dinosaur.

truthwatchertoo | 3:52 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

Just to be clear, as far as URS and how they manage the billions of dollars of retirement monies for state and local entity employees, I think they are doing a great job! Very professional. Their 2008 annual report supports this.

But the defined benefit plan for public employees and how it impacts tax payers is another issue.

To: Truthwatcher | 5:40 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

I'd gladly pay a bit more in my low Utah taxes (compared to other places I have lived) in order to keep some good teachers in the schools.

I agree with the poster that said if the legislature does away with the teacher retirement program, that will be the last straw. NO ONE will make it a career. We will end up with hourly employees, which is what the legislature seems to be shooting for.

That isn't what I want for my kids.

Defined benefit isn't a dinosaur. It is the only thing keeping the program running. The fact that businesses are doing away with pensions doesn't make it a dinosaur. It just means businesses are getting it wrong. Just look at the economy and you'll see my point. There is no loyalty and we keep shipping good jobs overseas so we don't have to pay benefits.

It is a disaster caused by republican ideology that isn't working for us.

We need to return to a stable economy with careers. We don't need or want the Walmart mentality taking over everything!

Annon. | 6:57 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

I currently teach at Utah highschool. I teach 6 different periods a week. My smallest class is 29 students. The other classes range from 34 to 42. I teach art. I know many of the other teachers in the school have as many as 45 students in their classes.

Anonymous | 8:46 p.m. Nov. 5, 2009

Well said at 5:40pm

We don't want a Walmart economy. We need to return to the days where a man can support his family and have a career. This changing jobs every 3 or 4 years is not working for our country.

I hope our legislators read your comments.

Utah Republican | 12:27 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

Describing it as a Walmart economy is exactly what I have been saying. We keep trying to mess with our education system by getting rid of the people that run it? We keep getting the teachers mad enough that no one wants the job? I honestly can't understand what our legislature is trying to do.

I have no problem with a teacher earning a retirement. They definitely do earn it. I just spent a few hours at my local junior high for a career fair and I know that the teachers are earning every penny they get. I would have to think that after 30 years they deserve some peace and quiet and relaxation. I don't know how they can survive that long to be honest.

Keep the retirement fund just the way it is. Or better yet make it ever more enticing so we can keep a few good teachers on the job.

Anonymous | 4:51 p.m. Nov. 6, 2009

The last quarterly report I got from the URS said that my retirement plan made money. This was the third quarterly report in a row that we made money. Yes, in 2008, we lost money, but not a lot. Now, we are making money again, I would say that is a sign of a well managed retirement system.

Lisa | 12:10 p.m. Nov. 10, 2009

Just kudos to our AMAZING Kaysville Jr teachers. They do an awesone job. My 2 kids that attend there get nothing but the best these teachers have to offer. I really hope that they know how much we think they are great. Yes some more room might be a good idea we are packed in like saradines. Good thing the kids are so well behaved up there. I am all for taxes going to schools. Best way to keep our state strong is to educate the children. Keep up the good work! Go Knights!! (sorry but I love our school!)

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Mike Terry, Deseret News

The first of 3 equally attended lunch periods crowd into the cafeteria at Kaysville Junior High last month. Davis School District officials counted 65,452 students this fall, up 438 kids.