Reader comments
Obama coaxes states to change with school dollars

Rob Osborne | 8:15 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

Finally, an effort to make teachers accountable for the performance of their students, and hopefully reward them appropriately! While standardized tests aren't the perfect answer, they are a great start, and at least they provide a baseline for the quality and capabilities of the students being produced in our education system.

The unions and teachers that fight this effort are simply in denial and do not want to be held accountable for the effectiveness and quality of the teaching!

Brother Chuck Schroeder | 8:22 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

On a shorter note, President Barack Obama is coaxing states across the country to rewrite education laws and hopefully get back to Home Schooling and cut deals with unions as to jump off the nearest and highest building on earth if they don't like it, as Parent's will now pursue his vision for home schooling and to shut down all public schools as true school reform.

Reality | 8:59 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

I am a High school teacher, and i have absolutely ZERO problems with being held accountable and being paid according to the performance of my students IF and this is a VERY important IF, IF parents are also held accountable for THEIR responsibilities for their students. I have close to half my kids who come to class infrequently, who patently refuse to do homework, who agrue, act up and bother other students, and who basicaly will not do ANYthing to further their own education. Guess what, we as teachers actually DO want every kid to succeed. And its awfully difficult to do when parents dont care in the slightest about their kids progress. We have 20% attendance or less at parent teacher conferences. It my job to do everything i can to truly help these kids, and i am committed to that. But i cant FORCE them to do anything. And when parents are COMPLETELY apathetic and uncaring, and then especially blame their kids lack of success on ME, well i have a serious problem with this!!!

my 2 cents

Comments continue below

Mrs S | 9:01 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

In all seriousness...if charter schools are so great (and they TRULY appear to be so), then why don't we turn all our public schools into charters.

Test scores tied to teacher pay should only be considered when (1) children of illegal, don't-speak-no English parents aren't allowed to take the tests and aren't included in percentages, and (2) PARENTS ARE MADE ACCOUNTABLE to feed their own children breakfast, see that the homework gets done, provide clean clothes, get the kids to school on time, teach manners and respect for their teachers, provide for adequate sleep, and PULL THE PLUG ON THE STUPID, MINDLESS VIDEO GAMES AND VIOLENT, SEXY TV!

Mrs S | 9:05 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

RE: Brother Chuck Schroeder | 9:06 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

O..k..

Was that supposed to be funny?

If so, you sir are a comedic genius. If not, well, don't quit your day job. ;)

Unions? Bah Humbug! | 9:07 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

I am not sure about dealing with the teacher's unions in ANY agreement. These parasitic entities should be cut out of any deal totally. The unions are the main reason education has gone to the dogs. I find it interesting that this POTUS has decided to back a proposal that his key support group opposes so vehemently. This alone is cause for concern. I wonder what the POTUS is up to. This whole thing smells bad. Washington will never be the answer and this "union deal" does nothing but slap a label of accountability on a bloated pig looking to get bigger. Does anyone know how hard it actually is to get rid of ANY teacher? What a joke.

Anonymous | 9:11 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

Finally something that I can agree with...as long as the government doesn't take over charter schools and home schooling.

Numbers | 9:12 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

Any attempt to tie remuneration to performance on test scores will only make the test scores less meaningful. You will end up with children whose only knowledge is how to take a specific test. I call it the "Heisenberg Principle of Management", and have seen it in all industries I have worked in at every level. Any attempt to optimize a number will drive any non-optimal result underground. Enron was the perfect example of this.

big mess | 9:16 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

The mess that is public education just keeps getting worse and worse...with no end in sight.

JanSan | 9:17 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

re: Bro Chuck Schroeder
This is the first that I have heard about Obama wanting everyone to homeschool!!!!! Please suppy facts to back this up.

Where as I think it is great that teachers should get higher pay... and that some teachers should see the back of the door as they leave.. I am not sure that this is the right way to do it.

I have a grandson who learning dissabilities and I know that their are other kids out there in the school system that just have trouble learning. No matter how good the teacher is.. some kids just have trouble learning. They can progress but not be the brightest in the class. To hold the pay back from a good teacher who is trying their hardest but who has 4-5 kids with disablilities in their class does not seem right. I can see where some teacher/principals could start stacking classes with bright kids so that certain teachers get all the bright kids and get their pay increased where others don't.
Don't know what the solution is ... but not sure that is the right way to go.

Anonymous | 9:18 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

Pay based on merit. Republican fight. 70% of our wealthy got rich through parental welfare. Meritocracy in America is the creeping hand of socialism.

rnoble | 9:27 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

test scores are a very flimsy way to assess teacher performance---it just creates incentive to teach the test---a better way would be to have school administraters to be present in the classroom and evaluate and reward teachers---it would also be better to watch students for five years and observe performance to assess individual teachers---or the best way would be about changing the way we advance students---we should have a mastery goal for each "year" of education and noone should be able to leave that year until they master those goals---it would become clear very quickly which teachers were most able to help that mastery and which hindered mastery---no longer would we have age based school grades but only performance based---of course this would require a great deal more flexibility when planning school space for instruction---

CougarKeith | 9:37 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

I might actually be an OBAMA fan of this, STUDENT PERFORMANCE tied to TEACHER PAY! That is a great idea, isn't that the same as something like, say, COMPETITION? If your students perform better then you get paid more? Wow, that is an amazing idea! I am sure Teachers who actually like to teach love that idea! I am sure true blue UNION teachers hate that, then they might have to actually work and be talented!

See, Obama has a COUPLE of good ideas, and he has a lot of VERY BAD ideas!!! This is a VERY GOOD IDEA!!! Now if he thought this way about "Health Insurance REFORM", he would be onto something HUGE!!! Insurance Companies who are good, and keep PREMIUMS DOWN, will get MORE CUSTOMERS, and those who do all the bad things he worries about Will not! Allowing People To Buy Insurance ANYWHERE will cause Premiums to GO DOWN because it creates "COMPETITION"! Why is that so hard to understand??? I'll tell you why, because in some areas of his "Platfom" he has EVIL GUYS pulling the strings to get CONTROL of what they want! DO THE RIGHT THING OBAMA on EVERYTHING!

Hartley | 9:55 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

unless the teacher controls the home life of the student this won't change anything. Secondary teachers see a student for one hour for five days a week, but a parent has control of the home envoriment, but a teacher will be now judge on how well a parent does their job. This is like pay a dentist on how well a patient keeps their teeth clean.

Concerned | 10:22 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

I have to say I agree with many of the comments that have been expressed about holding teachers accountable. I work in a school as a custodian, and though I don't have any responsibilty for teaching our students, I know how frustrated many of the teachers get by talking to them. They get tired of dealing with students that do not want to get an education. They especially are tired of dealing with parents who don't care whether or not their child pass of fails. The biggest thing they are sick of is parents always coming in and trying to blame the teacher for there child not doing well in school. Frankly, if we want our children to be successful in the classroom it has to start at home, not in the schools. When parents start holding their children responsible for getting there school work turned in and done properly, then I think you will see a big improvement in the type of education these children are really getting.

Brother Chuck Schroeder | 10:30 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

RE: JanSan | 9:17 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009
re: Bro Chuck Schroeder

Let's address then then: GET RID OF THE AFL-CIO Teacher's Union or go back to Home Schooling and teach YOUR OWN KID's. That alone will save tax payer's trillions. President Barack Obama is coaxing states across the country to rewrite education laws and hopefully get back to Home Schooling and cut deals with unions as to jump off the nearest and highest building on earth if they don't like it, as Parent's will now pursue his vision for home schooling and to shut down all public schools as true school reform.

RE: RE: Brother Chuck Schroeder | 9:06 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009
O..k..

Was that supposed to be funny?

Reply: do you see me laughing?.

Societal problem | 11:22 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

If you want to find the solution to improving education in America, there's only one place to look -- in the mirror. How many of the "student performance/teacher pay" crowd have ever voluteered at a school? How many parents sit down with their children EVERY night to understand what their homework is and help them think through problems and solutions.

You can only put heat on teachers if you're pulling your load.

S/Father of seven

Show Me The Money | 11:40 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

I love this plan. Thank goodness I teach 5 honors classes. My test scores are the highest in the district (seriously). Show me the money!!!

Mrs S | 11:41 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

You can't pit one teacher against another via test scores. There are too many variables, such as assignment of students to particular classrooms, learning disabilities, parental involvement, etc. Until the parents of this state and country become totally responsible and really partner en masse with the schools, we won't make any headway. Even if we can't pay teachers more right now, we should show them respect and offer help whenever we can. The parents are the key. They have to be responsible at home. AND NO, I'M NOT A TEACHER.

Mrs S | 11:44 a.m. Nov. 4, 2009

Maybe we should require parents to sign a "responsibility contract" with the school districts before their children can be admitted.

Re: Cougar Keith | 12:16 p.m. Nov. 4, 2009

I agree with everything you said after you left the topic of education. The thing you fail to realize is what "Reality" points out in his/her post. Teachers can't control students. Until you realize that a high percentage (30%-70%)of students don't care about their education you are living in ignorance.(Sitting next to Obama) Can you control your co-worker at your job? That's what your asking teachers to do. The co-worker can be helped if they have a desire to be helped.

You seem to understand that Obama wants his way with all things, also known as Socialism or government control of everything, but you lack the understanding in education. He's doing this to control teachers and schools. He's dangling the $5 billion carrot to tie the hands of schools.

Teachers that "love to teach" aren't ignorant enough to think that they can FORCE someone to learn. Teachers can do everything in their power but not reach many students. You want to evaluate teachers on that? If so, then you're no better than Obama. Many students want what Obama is pushing - "Something for nothing" aka "Redistribution of wealth."

Parameter | 12:52 p.m. Nov. 4, 2009

The hard fact is that not all students are going to succeed in school. Some are simply not as smart as others and some do not have the motivation or character to overcome challenges.

I think we should track kids into academic tracks and vocational tracks from late middle school. Teach the kids that will quite frankly never go to college a trade or skill that they can use to get employment.

If we did this then the academic track kids wouldn't be bothered by all the others who disrupt class and demand too much teacher time. The vocational track kids will be happier because they won't be forced to learn stuff they'll never understand or use anyway. Vocational tracks would improve the level of competence in such areas as plumbing and auto mechanics in this country since few people entering these professions currently get any real training. Everyone is happy except the polically correct types who hold onto the false belief that "every child can succeed". Simply isn't true.

Aker | 1:38 p.m. Nov. 4, 2009

Those who use the word "socialism" or "socialist" when referring to President Obama or his policies must have been left behind in school. Neither he nor his policies have anything to do with socialism. By European standards President Obama is conservative. Even in Europe there are few real socialist politicians. Seriously folks, some basic political science classes or economic classes would serve you well!

Education in the US is driven by a culture that doesn't value intellectualism. Those who do well in school are often put down as 'nerds' or those who use multisyllabic words are dismissed as 'eggheads' with no common sense. Politicians regulary screen their speeches to avoid alienating the masses with complicated sentence structures.

When Americans care as much about who won the last Nobel Prize in physics or mathematics as they do which silly American-football team won last year's superbowl I'll begin to think this nation has a chance to catch up to the rest of the industrialized world.

Here's one educator | 9:42 p.m. Nov. 4, 2009

Who supports both of these initiatives from the Obama administration. Teacher unions, quite frankly, are destroying the American educational system. Change is good, but change is impossible with the teacher unions. Charter schools and merit pay are not a silver bullet, but they WOULD improve the situation and allow innovative educators to put great new ideas into practice.

Jared Ivans | 10:30 p.m. Nov. 4, 2009

For so long we’ve heard that the US is falling behind the world in education and that our system is broken. Solutions range from home schooling to new-age labeling of young students in order to polarize the bright from the dim. Volumes could be written about the flaws of all of these ideas which then begs the question: Is it possible that the reason no solution has been found is that the problem isn’t as bad as we’ve been led to believe? Is it possible that our system despite its flaws is the current best solution to an incredibly complicated issue?

Yes technology and social shifting is causing our world to change. Yes they’re doing newer supposedly better things in Asia and Europe. The grass is always greener after all. And let’s not forget how uncomfortable our own angst-riddled teenage years in public school were. All valid points, but are they irrefutable evidence that our current system is really broken?

More Blackmail... | 6:39 a.m. Nov. 5, 2009

Of all the hypocrisy it astounds me that government is being allowed and supported to blackmail every american and state for federal funds. How many times have I read and heard the complaints about too much federal government taking over states rights and individual constitutional rights? This is how, they blackmail the states to pass unwanted laws to get it. It seems very easy to steal ones soul in Utah, just say education and money in the same sentence. For taxes just mention tobacco.

This offer of Obama is evil and criminal and most important, it attacks individual rights to fair and equitable income with organized labor. Without organized labor we are being forced in to slave status with no rights or compensation. Instead of slaves working on plantations or in mines, we are now everywhere. And I can't believe how many idiots are eating this up and calling themselves unworthy americans. You are poor and without a job because of your own stupidity to deny yourselves of due process.

Selling your soul for the hope of money is now our new government process. Utah should pass on any such conditional federal funds.

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