Deseret News | Book of Mormon geography articles likely written by Joseph Smith

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Book of Mormon geography articles likely written by Joseph Smith

I knew it | 7:37 a.m. Oct. 30, 2009

This is another nail in the coffin to Rodney Meldrum's ridiculous apostate theory that the B of M took place in what is now the U.S.

Mike | 8:14 a.m. Oct. 30, 2009

So far as I know, there still hasn't been found any archeological evidence to support the BOM's claim of a pre-columbian Judeo-Christian presence anywhere in the Americas. So It hardly matters what JS said or did not say in 1942 about the location.

Go to Jerusalem and I can show you archeological evidence that the Romans were there. It is also not hard to find evidence of early chritianity in that land. If the BOM people occupied central america for over 1000 years, where is the evidence?

Dr. Craig Dunn | 8:39 a.m. Oct. 30, 2009

I have studied both theories ie. Central vs. Great Lakes. The research all points to Mesoamerica. Dr. Joseph Allen, Palmer,Cheesman, Hawk and a miriad of others who have spent years researching and visiting the sites are all in aggreement on this point. I highly reccomend you read Dr. Joseph Allen's latest book complete with the latest research. When i first visited the Hill Comorah in New York in 1976 they told me about the last battle in the Book of Mormon that had taken place there. They no longer do that. Old traditions die hard even, when all the evidence suggests otherwise.

Dr. Craig Dunn

Comments continue below

Tom Ferguson | 8:48 a.m. Oct. 30, 2009

JS also saw evidences of B of M in north america, and dont forget the infamous Zelph. JS saw evidences of B of M in mounds, writings on stone in north east, the carolinas etc etc. JS had a hemispheric view of B of M so anywhere in the western hemisphere had evidences for him. That he saw evidences in mesoamerica does by no means lead to the conclusion that JS believed in a limited geography.

Anonymous | 9:06 a.m. Oct. 30, 2009

Third grade education insufficient to write the Book of Mormon? Yet he was writing book reviews in his newspaper. Isn't it time to put to bed this idea that Joseph wasn't smart enough to write the Book of Mormon?

And as far as geography goes, didn't Joseph already say that a Lamanite warrior was found buried in Illinois on one of his expeditions? How did that warrior "named Zelph" get to Illinois? Joseph even wrote and told Emma that they were traveling on the land of the Nephites.

Anonymous | 10:23 a.m. Oct. 30, 2009

On November 8, 1519, was Cortez reached Tenochtitlan it was larger than any city in Europe.

There knowledge of the Aztecs dating back to 1500's and the writer of this article seems to be advancing the idea that the civilizations in Mexico were known.

Europeans after hearing of Tenochtitlan tried to rationalize this great city in where today is Mexico City by the conclusion that the lost tribe of Israel was responsible. This was a time in European history where facts had to confirm the Bible.

The idea that endemic Americans where a lost tribe of wayward Jews was old in 1840. Today, we know there were no tribes. Jews are descended from Canaanites.

Anonymous | 10:48 a.m. Oct. 30, 2009

It was a popular idea at Joseph Smith's time to postulate that American Indians were of Hebrew extraction. Ethan Smith's View of the Hebrew was a book that concerned this very issue. Ethan Smith happened to be that minister in Oliver Cowdery's town. Does anyone catch a connection here.

Anonymous | 11:01 a.m. Oct. 30, 2009

Archaeologists outside of Mormondom all agree that a civilization lasting 1000 years could not exist without leaving evidence of their existance--coins, tools, buildings, etc. We have nothing to support the existance of Lamanites and Nephites. Why can't anyone show us where Bountiful, Cumorah, and Zarahemla were. It surprises me that no one seems to care about the fact that so much is unavailable.

Travel anyone? | 11:02 a.m. Oct. 30, 2009

All of the events of the BoM could easily have taken place in a Mesoamerican limited geography area, while still having some of their descendants anywhere in the Americas or islands of the Pacific. There are references to explorers and travelers, who went far distances to new areas and then were not heard from again - see Hagoth.

Anonymous | 11:13 a.m. Oct. 30, 2009

I agree with Mike. Show me any proof of your claims. All kinds of people have written books speculating on Book of Mormon lands. All are speculations. With the Bible I have personally been able to visit Nazareth, Bethlehem, Judea, Capernum, etc. Nobody can direct me to Zarahemla or Bountiful. I don't believe they existed. The church makes people feel good and do great works which are all great. I have to say that the claims of the church about being elevated to Godhood in the eternities rises to the level of "if its too good to be true, it probably isn't."

RE: ANONYMOUS | 12:37 p.m. Oct. 30, 2009

Who says that their isn't evidence that the Lamanites and Nephites weren't in the America's? Who says that there haven't been findings of tools in America. I got a museum here in town that has a bunch of artifacts. It's not gonna say "Property of the Nephites" on it. Duh? So who are you to say what is an artifact from Lamanites and what isn't?

Bill | 1:18 p.m. Oct. 30, 2009

Just as the Lord has allowed certain things of the known world, so has he of what is the unknown world. I know that there is evidence of the Nephites here and of the Lamanites. The problem is that for each one found a critic tends to slam it as something other than what it is. There have been roads found in South and Central America that leads to the ocean and stops. After words it continues in the bottom of the sea. Is this evidence of the Book of Mormon or life here in the Americas. The Book of Mormon in 3 Nephi speaks of what happened at the death of Christ. Is this an evidence or not. There are similar things found through out the Americas where cities are high in the mountains that actually may have been at a much lower altitude. Proof, who is to say. The fact is we have no proof of Sodom and Gommorah, but the Bible says so. We have no real proof where Moses separated the Red Sea except science trying to say where it happened as only their limited knowledge. I have my witness. That is all I need.

I concur Bill | 2:08 p.m. Oct. 30, 2009

Yep, that's right. Scientists just discovered that there was huge disturbance in the central american area about 2000 years ago. Just like the death of Christ right before his appearance in 3rd Nephi. How the heck is Joseph Smith supposed to know that has happened? If he wrote the book then this is the bigget coincedence known to man. If he translated the book then he is a prophet. Looking for evidence in a world of religion that requires faith is like a blind squirrel trying to find nuts....He ain't gonna last very long. Evidence should not create someone's faith, but it can confirm the faith.

Henry | 2:12 p.m. Oct. 30, 2009

To Anonymous:

Joseph had a third grade education when the Book of Mormon was translated in 1830. The gospel turned him into a student, a great student at that. By 1842, he was an incredible writer, to me that stands as proof of how the gospel can greatly enlarge and expand the mind. You should give it a try.

A Man's Perspective | 2:15 p.m. Oct. 30, 2009

How does anybody know that archaeological evidence of the Book of Mormon has not been found? If something from the Nephites, for example, was found, how would we recognize it?

To: Bill | 2:24 p.m. Oct. 30, 2009

Please site one crediable reference of where roads continue into the sea, this is just more Mormon invented stories to support their wish to find prove. Let's stay honest. These fables serve no good purpose.

Not so fast | 3:31 p.m. Oct. 30, 2009

This does NOT put a nail in Meldrum's great lakes ideas. It does, however, prove that Joseph was willing to entertain other locations for the Book of Mormon.

Also, what if one place mentioned in the Book of Mormon was identified? Would you then believe? Well, the Book of Mormon place Nahom was found in exactly the place where the Book of Mormon said it was. There you go. A so-called fictional location turns out to be real. To those who believe, no proof is necessary. To those who don't, no proof will be enough.

Bill | 3:34 p.m. Oct. 30, 2009

To: Bill 2:24 pm

This was posted by a scientist a few years ago when I read an article. For one if you read my comment I didn't ever state it proved the Book of Mormon or anything, just that it had been found. The proof isn't going to necessarially be found in a science book or in some archeologists find. It just isn't there. There have been finds through out Central and South America dating to over 2000 years ago. Yet, they can't say where they came from. There has been proof given that many of the so called pyramids in Central and South America resemble those in Egypt to a point. Yet, critics through this away. Sources are great if you are looking to prove a point. I wasn't trying to prove a point. Study some of what Science has found and you will see some resemblance. The Lord literally destroyed cities around 2000 years ago. Why haven't we found Sodom and Gormorah? We can't, just speculation and that is all I gave was speculation. I have my witness as I don't need science to prove it.

The Truth | 5:05 p.m. Oct. 30, 2009

Let's hope the Smithsonian doesn't read this article.

not so fast nahom | 5:12 p.m. Oct. 30, 2009

where exactly is Nahom?

Anonymous | 6:37 p.m. Oct. 30, 2009

Mr. Groote is nearly as bad as Mr. ASh... How much more damage can these two do to the Church and thier role as contributors ro the Mormons Times. Stop already, enough is enough!

Anonymous | 7:09 p.m. Oct. 30, 2009

IT IS FICTION! You can argue the rest of your pathetic lives over where this or that fictional character and city were located. You will never get anywhere. Might as well draw maps of Gelderland and argue over how many Gelflings there are in Winterhaven!

I believe | 8:46 p.m. Oct. 30, 2009

in the whole story.

I also believe in the tooth fairy.

Life After People | 8:47 p.m. Oct. 30, 2009

The History Channel once ran a program “Life After People” and assumes what would happen if humanity suddenly vanishes. If one googles Life after people, there will be a link to a Wikipedia article that features a prediction time table going from day 1 to 10,000 years. The 1000 year mark makes this comment
“Nature has re-established itself and nearly all evidence of modern civilization will have vanished. Most modern cities would be collapsed, become barely recognizable husks overgrown by a jungle of trees, waters, flowers and vegetation. New York City may look as it did when it was first explored by Henry Hudson in 1609.

The Nephites were exterminated by the Lamanities in 421 A.D. The former Nephite civilization after 1000 years from their extinction would have become unrecognizable hence no traces of their existence according to the prediction time table.

Mellow out! | 9:09 p.m. Oct. 30, 2009

If I didn't believe the Book of Mormon was true I wouldn't worry about it.I don't happpen to believe many books are true and I don't rant and rave against them! Why are you non-believers so obsessed with it? If it is false, it isn't hurting you. I am convinced that the reason so many of you rant on endlessly is that you are only trying to convince yourself that it isn't true and you need to hear your own voice comforting yourself. Some of you need to mellow out and do something useful with your life. Go help a little old lady accross the street, do something, anything to bring some meaning into your life rather than waste it persecuting a book you don't even believe in!

mark | 9:33 p.m. Oct. 30, 2009

Mellow out!

Why are you so worried about what other people are worried about?

mark | 9:35 p.m. Oct. 30, 2009

Life After People,

That would be: have you heard about archeology?

@not so fast nahom | 8:55 a.m. Oct. 31, 2009

In Saudi Arabia, right where it ought to be where they buried Ishmael. Also a group of people around 600 B.C. called the Lehyites (the D&C talks about the great missionary work done by Lehi and Nephi). The whole description of the journey from Jerusalem to Bountiful follows the caravan trade routes of the time. They've found a couple different good locations for Bountiful. At the time the BoM was translated, Arabia was believed to be nothing but sand and rock and a few oasis. One of the things they ridiculed the most was the idea that there could be lumber of which a ship could be built, or a fertile place where fruit was abundant, etc.

"To those who believe, no proof is necessary. To those who don't, no proof will be enough." Absolutely.

Boys Love Adventure Stories | 10:45 a.m. Oct. 31, 2009

It is obvious that it was Joseph Smith's third grade education (and his vivid imagination) was what inspired all the nonsense and stories about the Book of Mormon. If he had been better educated, he would not have written such claptrap. Educated men of the day knew that the Americas were not settled by Hebrews and that there was no archaelogical evidence to support it.

Paul Pulley | 11:48 a.m. Oct. 31, 2009

There is evidence describing in detail the geography of the Book of Mormon. It is written on several other kinds of metal plates hidden deeper in the Hill Cumorah. You can read these if you exercise enough faith in the "small plates" (aka The Book of Mormon). The Golden Plates were not written to prove geography. They were written to teach Jesus Christ's doctrine to the world, and to serve as witness to the faithful that He really is the only way back to the Father. The Nephites faithfully kept records. We understand the Lamanites (in general) didn't care. The Spaniards who came tried their best to destroy all written forms of history the Central Americans had. A Nephite civilization existed for 1,000 years but has been extinct for 1,600 years now. Of course other evidence will be hard to find. Pre-Columbian evidence of Christianity? Study what the Popol Vuh says about Quetzalcoatl coming from a virgin mother in the east! Go to Tulum, Mexico and see the engravings on a building showing the "Great God", the "Diving (Descending) God", and a placeholder showing nothing (Holy Ghost). All evidence of the Trinity!

New Approach to BoM Geography | 4:31 a.m. Nov. 2, 2009

A new book is about to release that puts this matter in a whole new light. The Book is: "Prophecies and Promises" co-authored by Bruce H. Porter -- BA in Ancient Near Eastern Studies (BYU) Master’s in Middle East Studies, PhD in History of Religions (emphasis in Egyptian religion and textual studies and Anthropology). Anyone who has heard Dr. Porter's presentation on the "36 Prophecies and Promises (P&P) of the Book of Mormon" will understand the power of this new book. It establishes a "hierarchy of 'witnesses"' to Book of Mormon evidence. Highest are the P&P's that any latter-day nation must satisfy in order to be considered the "Promised Land" of the Book of Mormon. Second: Statements by Joseph Smith himself. Lowest: geographical passages found in the BoM.

I hope that Mr. DeGroote will be able to review this new book and share its insights with the readers of this column as it sheds important new light on Book of Mormon geography. The book has not been formally announced yet, (I obtained a pre-release copy from the author) but I believe it can now be found on Amazon.

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