Deseret News | Taxes eyed as way to fill $850M gap in budget

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Taxes eyed as way to fill $850M gap in budget

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Human Services | 6:59 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009

Define human services as mentioned in the article. Utah is already notorious among educators for slashing education spending at the first hint of shortfall. What human services are provided with tax dollars? Maybe we should spend less on handouts and not have to keep teaching salaries shamefully low.

Anonymous | 1:38 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

Tax all children after two, that should keep Utah in the green for decades.

shawilli | 2:16 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

I am envious of Utah, your state has a shortfall of 850 million and down here in Arizona the budget shortfall is now at 2 billion plus and growing. The state of Arizona is now going to have to borrow from the federal goverment an estimated 650 million dollars to continue paying out unemployment benefits for 2010. The solution is probably going to be a tax increase later next year, and with so many people out of work and in danger of losing their homes and jobs if the "great recession" keeps expanding things are not looking good at all. I am just amazed that Washington continues to throw fuel on the fire by spending more and more billions of dollars, and now the news is that there is a move towards raising the national debt to 13 trillion. I am afraid of what lies ahead of this nation if we don't slam the brakes on the runaway debt train. I wonder what will happen when the interest in the debt comes due?

Comments continue below

Cut, cut, cut. | 3:52 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

What's so hard for legislators to understand? They cannot sustain the expensive and elaborate government they have created. Any and all programs not affiliated with government operations are subject to closure. This includes services in welfare, education, and illegal alien benefits. This includes subsidized housing, child care, utility payments, health care, and any other tax funded personal services.

We do not have a socialistic government and any socialist programs were out of the kindness of excesses government had in funding. All subject to conditional terms and availability of funds which now there are none. So none of these programs should remain in service as long as the economy remains stagnent and repressive.

There is no valid reason to even consider tax increases while criminally avoiding the cuts they must make in many areas of government handouts. The first criteria of any government handout must be citizenship, not hardship. Just by enforcing a citizenship requirement would more than offset any budget shortfalls by millions if not billions of dollars.

And our legislators wonder why citizens are demanding ethical reform in government.

Tongue in cheek | 5:57 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

I am sure the tax and spend Republicans of this state will find more ways to wrest that shiny nickle out of Utahn's pocketbooks. Have tehy considered taxing breathing because of the CO2 emissions people let out? How about a pee and poop tax?

THe real question is what sort of raise will our wonderful serve us legislature get for all their hard work for us?

Enough Taxes! | 6:18 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

Instead of looking for anexcuse to impose us with "another" tax, how about reducing government; say, to basic needed services ONLY? There's only so much weight we can bear. Enough new taxes - cut, cut, cut!

re Cut cut cut | 7:27 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

What about tapping the $600 million "rainy day fund"? Do we think it is "rainy" yet. If you truly want anarchy, let's deprive the poor of welfare and the children of an education. Then we can lose businesses at a faster rate because no business will relocate to Yewtaw (sorry for the spelling, we just cut education again, also in your comment s-t-a-g-n-a-n-t). With respect to "illegals", be careful what you wish for as our society employs these diligent workers by the tens of thousands, without them, we will not be able to offer huge sections of business or government services. Try volunteering at your local elementary school, volunteer to form an art foundation and donate the supplies to school, assist an ESL student with his education, go to a shelter and feed the homeless regularly. In short, regain and rethink. When finished, go support your local high school teams and donate to their athletic programs, which are surely going to be cut with the shortfall.

Yours is a "got mine, let's cut everybody after me" attitude. Adjust your perspective. PS until then, I'm glad you're not a legislator.

Cut what? | 7:31 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

I am guessing we will not see cuts to legislative pay or benefits and yet last year every other public employees took cuts on pay and/or benefits. Stop the lifetime insurance and retirement for our legislators. They are not full time legislators and make money elsewhere. Why should we be giving them golden parachutes for serving as a legislator?
Our legislators should stop passing so many laws they know will end up in court and waste our tax payer money trying to fight for those laws. Stop putting in legislature that creates bigger government through laws that cost a lot to actually enforce- walls in restaurants hiding alcohol and other nonsense like that.
Stop government waste.

No Sales Tax on Services! | 7:41 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

A sales tax on service is a terrible policy. It will be a disincentive to the use of professionals and hurt our already struggling economy.

Joseph | 7:56 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

Nice, so many of us are in hard times and the wise people up on the hill just want to inflict more pain.

Good thinking guys!

Our governement isn't socialist? | 8:06 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

Could have fooled me! We live in the era of big controlling government. Over 300 new laws were passed in Utah's last legislative session. Everything we do is regulated. Freedom is lost. Utah is one of the most fiscally liberal states in the country. Utah spends, spends, spends, and now lawmakers are wondering why they're having trouble paying for it all. It's like watching a young couple get in debt over their ears but they still keep having children.

Knowwhat | 8:23 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

How can a sales tax on services be a terrible policy. It the only policy we have left since we have destroyed our manufacturing and any income building industry to be replaced by services that only redistribute money not create it.

seeking tax equity | 8:29 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

I say - raise the tobacco tax - the societal cost of a pack of cigarettes today is above $10 per pack (as determined by the CDC), yet we only add a tax of 69.5 cents. In Utah the non-smokers subsidize the smoker significantly including the extra health care costs required by the smoker. Let us raise the tobacco tax - it will raise needed revenue while encouraging current smokers to stop and our children not to start - and in the long run reducing our health care costs - thus it is a win-win. If a person wants to smoke - that is his/her choice - but please do not ask the non-smokers to continue to subsidize your activity.

Tax our food ?! | 8:32 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

I think it is an abomination to tax food period, let alone consider raising the tax. Food is a major expense for every person, and not something that you can cut to meet the budget (although I'm sure many do and go hungry).

I agree with cut, cut, cut -- scale back government programs.

Anarchy does not equal chaos | 8:50 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

Humankind is still trying to figure out how to replace a dictator (the "arch") ruling others with self-rule.

We govern ourselves in an orderly way everyday, without the assistance of legislated guidance and bureaucratic oversight ... at the implied point of a gun.

Separating school and state -- there are plenty of resources out there for parents to homeschool their children or educate them through proprietary schools -- would deliver the cuts necessary to close the budget gap.

Kitchy | 8:58 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

Lets see, they have raised my property tax, federal taxes, my health insurance by 42% per month to where those of us on fixed incomes are wondering where we will get money for doctors, food and housing. Why not raise taxes more and put people like us out on the street. This is just getting altogether out of hand. Stop the taxing and start cutting your own salaries, make cuts, cuts, cuts to state government services. We cannot afford anymore taxes. There is only so much a fixed income can handle and we are there.

Double deduction | 9:01 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

So, business gets to itemize "business inputs" completely on their federal taxes and now our legislators want to make those purchases exempt from sales tax as well?

AND PAY FOR IT BY INCREASING TAXES ON FAMILIES?

Cosmo | 9:03 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

Another tax,that will solve the problem. It cannot be that the government is simply too large, oh no not that. It must be that the unwashed slobs are not paying enough. Let's tax them for the number of rubber duckies, bought, that will do it. And next year, when we deem it so, we will tax pencils. It does not matter why, just because, we can always make up a story as to why, later.

@seeking | 9:05 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

Good points and I agree. People need to start living healthier lifestyles in the US if we ever want to cut down health care costs. I say if increasing taxes encourages people to live healthier and cost us less then lets raise them.

Booo to you all | 9:08 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

I would suspect that the commenters above are the first to complain where there are: potholes in the roads, water lines that don't work, higher medical premiums, large class sizes at school, old slow computers at public libraries, higher prices at high school football games, higher tuition costs at state-sponsored schools.

People want the same level of service at half the cost.

How deep is the HOLE, really? | 9:17 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

Rumors are the underfunded State pension plan is as big as $6.5 billion and/or that the system obligation is now just over 80% funded.

To put things in perspective, there are 560,000+/- K-12 students. For each $1.0 billion of underfunded liability taxpayers face a $1,786 amount per student for educator services already rendered. To look at it another way, as of 2008 there were 19,336 classified employee FTEs in the school districts and 27,358 licensed employee FTEs; for this group each $1 billion of underfunding represents a $21,416 per employee FTE liability for services already provided. Whatever the underfunded amount, $1.0 billion or $6.5 billion, it is a huge obligation.

Compare this liability with the state’s average M&O spending per student; in 2006 it was $5,683. To get the pension plan adequately funded will take time and divert monies from today's and tomorrow’s classrooms.

In a state already struggling with funding education, being faced with such astronomical numbers to cover an underfunded defined benefit pension program has significant consequences on education and tax payers. The Legislature needs to address the issue.

I Agree- A Head Tax | 9:35 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

Instead of getting an exemption for children this state needs to apply a tax on children after 3 or 4. What do you think is driving up our state costs if it isn't all the freebies kids get until they become contributors and get out of the coops. This is just one of the cost contributors but one of the biggest. Bill the LDS church for some of these costs if they want to continue the rhetoric of having large families. If the members can't pay bill their sponsor!

Tax Fast Food Businesses | 9:50 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

Sin taxes are one thing, how about taxing the very problem we have in obesity? Tax the fast food industries, the manufactures of obesity contributing foods ect. We all know what contributes to obesity, why not tax the industry manufacturers of these products. It would create more in sales taxes also. Cigaretes are one contributor to our problem but bad health is far and away the biggest. Food manufactures have been left alone on this whole sin tax thing! I happen to think it is a sin to manufature unhealthy food! We all know what they are, if not let the dieticans spell them out.

No Tax on Services | 9:51 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

It's bad enough that people are losing their jobs every day, but to add a tax on services is ridiculous. We can barely afford to pay for our health care and make ends meet as it is.

Do we really think our economy is going to pick up when we are adding taxes? Our battered housing market surely won't recover when housing prices skyrocket because of the extra costs.

Lawmakers say they will lower the tax rate for the existing sales, income and property taxes if they implement a services tax, but we all know that will just be temporary. Once a new tax is added, it just paves the way for government to tax more.

Unhappy Constituent | 10:11 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

We need to get rid of every politician in Utah and start over. Maybe new people will have a better way of handling problems. By reading these comments, it's obvious that people are becoming more and more disenchanted with current politics. Why is it so hard to realize that some people are losing income and jobs and houses and just do not have any more to give to the government.

Utah is oneof the best | 10:22 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

states in the country with regard to living within its budget. We are certainly not "tax and spend" to the degree most other states are. We have done a great job in the past of balancing our budget and we need to take some brave steps now to ensure we continue on that path.

A Combination of taxes and cuts will be needed. The educator's pension is a real problem and made worse by the legislature giving an across the board "raise" to teachers a couple years ago. This raised the baseline for ALL teachers and it was required that it was added to the district scales.

We could presently hire teachers in the market for less than we are able to because of the forced wage scales. Meaning, while all other sectors have to respond to the market, cut pay and balance budgets, education not only doesn't, but can't reduce teacher pay. This pay is what drives the numbers in the pension plan which is based upon wages.

While it may be unpopular to imagine cutting teacher pay, most would accept a small cut to keep their jobs. Unfortunately, it is impossible.

Home4U | 10:47 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

There really should be a "head tax" for every child in the public school system. For those of us who have no children, we continue to pay for families with a gaggle of children. A head tax would easily solve the $850 Million deficit! But...we're in Utah and the legislature wouldn't even dream of such a simple solution!

Alright then, legislators, cut YOUR pay and YOUR benefits. That will help a bit!

Tax schmax | 10:48 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

I don't care if its tobbacco or soda, I don't want taxes raised on me or my fellow citizens. We pay enough already and we are loosing our jobs. So, those who still have jobs are going to be required to give even more of their living to the scamming politicians. How about a little budget control and cost cuts to the teachers who seem to be living the high life with pay and perks.

Dan | 10:48 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

Start finding money by fixing the real problem. Cut wages and benefits of government employees and reduce budget for new vehicles, travel, and other unnecessary expenses. It once was that private employers looked at government wages to see what the bottom pay should be. Now, the pay and benefits to government workers are so high the private employers cannot compete. That is a real indicator that things are upside down. Stop taking from the producers of capital and begin to cut back the takers of capital who do not produce. Reward productivity. Do not penalize productivity with taxes on services or any other productive effort.

StopSmoking | 10:58 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

To those who are interested in seeing a reduction or elimination of smoking, I would submit that increasing taxes on cigarettes in not the answer. Every time a state authorizes a tax on cigarettes, that state becomes irreversibly dependent on the tobacco company for sustaining the state budget. That's why the Master Settlement Plan with the tobacco companies was a godsend to those companies - it ensured that state's obtaining annual payments from the settlement would never dream of outlawing smoking. It will only be after states completely eliminate taxes on tobacco that they will be truly free to ban the purchase and sale of cigarettes altogether.

In short: taxation is bondage. Our state is as hopelessly addicted to cigarette sales as smokers are addicted to tobacco. Sin taxes are only a ruse by legislators to cash in on peoples' addictions.

Bill Heiner | 11:00 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

I think a tax on services is a slippery slope and will have a negitive effect on the consumer and especialy small business owners. The price of all of our services will have to go up to make up for
the additional taxes.
Small business is our life blood. To put additional
burdon on them will have a devistating impact on the service industry as a whole.
All of us in the service industry have to join together and fight this tooth and nail.

Tax on Services is infaltionary | 11:01 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

Taxing on services would only cause those providing the service to raise their prices, causing higher prices and more inflation.

Gordon Sloan | 11:03 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

Tax on services is a horrible idea. The idea does not even merit discussion. At a time when prices should be reduced, this tax increases costs substantially on everything we purchase.

Child tax without merit | 11:08 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

It is amazing to me that each time there is a tax discussion there is someone who chimes in that a child tax is the answer.

I have lived in 5 states, and never heard this notion anywhere else. Having only been here a few years, I was curious as to what this is all about.

I was intrigued to find out it is a reflection of a small group of ignorant (true meaning of the word - uninformed, without understanding) people who are biased against religious tenets that advocate families as being the most important unit of society, which has traditionally resulted in larger than average families (LDS, Catholic, Muslim).

I wonder if those posters realize that because there is no economic viability to the idea of a "child tax", that thier religious bigotry is showing each time they post their silly "let's tax children". Not being from Utah I am intrigued to watch this happen time and time again and want to call attention to it for what it is - religious bigotry.

I love living in Utah but if I had one wish it would be for the religious bigotry to lessen.

George | 11:11 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

For those who don't know services that would be taxed would be; hair stylists, nail providers, doctors, lawyers, realtors, accountants, etc. Any one who provides a service to the public would have this additional tax!! You know once they get an additional tax, it never goes away!! Cut the budget!! Not service providers who are actually trying to stimulate the economy!!!

Dottie Burnham | 11:11 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

Dumb idea. That would be double taxation. We already pay too many taxes in this state. Look to ways to cut besides in the pocket of your citizens who are productive wage earners and adding to the economy (paying taxes)

Max G. Walters | 11:16 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

The ill-advised subject of taxing services continues to rear its ugly head among politicians who have forgotten how hard it is for most people to purchase a home, particularly under current market conditions. Obtaining a loan has never been more difficult. BIG banks received BIG bailouts but never passed any of it on to consumers!!! It is almost impossible to get a buyer approved for a conventional loan, even if they have a high and excellent credit score. The present price of homes on the market is still high and will quickly climb higher as the recession slows and pent-up demand increases. Taxing services would only deepen the problem by increasing housing prices. Realtors, plumbers, carpenters and everyone else relying on the housing market have ALREADY been hit hard in their pocket. Taxing services will KILL the incomes of many hard working citizens. Can't politicians find a better way to raise needed funds.....like lowering, or DOUBLE-TAXING their own salaries? Or limit spending? Now, that's a novel idea!!

Need Money | 11:17 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

How about Utah allows a lottery to be set up in the state. How much money could the state raise if the citizens were buying lottery tickets with the rare hope that they might win big--but if not, at least we are helping to pay the bills? I realize there are objections, but I am paying the bills anyway, why not give me a chance to win a jackpot? I might swallow that bitter pill just a little bit easier. And taxes on services? Forget it, it just makes it a lot more expensive to do things--like selling or buying an expensive thing like a house. I don't see the professional involved paying the extra tax--it will filter down to the consumer and/or the seller. The professional is already paying income taxes--why should they pay twice? It will just add extra cost to an already expensive transaction. It is in the state's interest to promote commerce, not load it down with added costs.

Jallen | 11:18 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

What a terrible idea. Once again, our political "leaders" fail to see the forest for the trees. When tax revenue is down, the knee jerk reaction is to raise or implement new taxes. This has the opposite effect of what is intended. If they want to raise tax revenue, lowering taxes is the solution. This creates incentives for small and large businesses to invest in the local economy, hire new employees, etc. Why add a service tax when all that it will accomplish is to reduce spending because most services will increase in price to compensate for the loss of income. How have we lost our way from fiscal responsibility to this tax and spend mentality?

Enough Already | 11:22 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

We are paying enough taxes as it is, it is ridiculous to think that all we need to do is find another tax, we are already so overtaxed it is a wonder we havent already had a revolt, What we need is for our local and state governments to stay out of our lives and out of our pockets.

Ray | 11:30 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

Maybe we should consider a tax on the unemployed and those on welfare since that seems like where a lot of our money is going these days.

Realtor | 11:36 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

They would tax my commissions on real estate transactions. You know what will happen, Realtors will raise their fees and people will end up paying more for these types of services. Too bad...

Katie | 11:40 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

A tax on services is a sure fire route to worsening out economic situation. So many people are already in a financial bind. This would pass it on to the consumer and the worker/entrepreneur. It baffles me that anyone would think this is a good idea.

Southern Harley | 11:40 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

A sales tax on services would seriously hurt an already weak housing market as well as homeownership in general. Under such a proposal, each of the myriad services used to build a house would be taxed, resulting in drastic increases to the price of a home. The services used in buying and selling homes would also be taxed, including real estate commissions, appraisals, home inspections, title work, surveys, etc. With all of the extra costs involved just to complete a transaction, many consumers would be deterred from home buying, moving or using a professional

cheryl | 11:42 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

Tax for services. Look at the already ailing housing market for instance. Taxing the services of everyone involved in that industry would necessarily inflate the prices of a property. Thus affecting buyers who are having a difficult enough time getting loans, thus affecting sellers since there are fewer buyers, thus affecting the struggling housing market. Ouch! This isn't the answer!

RedShirt | 11:46 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

I have a better idea. Rather than cutting spending or raising taxes, lets do something truely different. Lets put the word out there that any business that relocates to Utah will be exempt from state corporate income taxes for 10 years.

Think of it this way it will do multiple things all at once. First, it will attract businesses. Second, it will reduce unemployment. Third, it will add to the tax base to the tune of 5% of all salaries being paid. Fourth, it will bring in people to Utah who need to buy houses, and get the housing market moving again. Fifth, additional tax money will come in because of the spending of the additional people. If local companies complain, then, you just give them a similar offer with the condition that they hire a few more employees with the money they are not paying for state income taxes.

Del Ray Hammons | 11:55 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

It would seem that in these difficult economic times government should find a way to shrink to fit it's currently legal tax income. Taxing services will only make those services more expensive and will take money from people working hard to provide needed services and make a living. Prices on the services used to build and sell homes will only make homes more expensive and will not help an economy that is greatly positively affected when the housing industry has positive growth. This type of tax would undoubtedly help precipitate further foreclosures and a continuation of the economic problems we are seeing today. Everything that is done (like extra taxing) that affects the economy negatively also naturally affects the amount of taxes being paid because less money is being exchanged. TAXATION OF SERVICES DOES NOT MAKE SENSE OR CENTS.

Marie | 11:55 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

a tax on professional services will have a devastating effect on Utahs economy. Housing is one of driving effects of the economy, taxing services will increase the amount of building a home and therefore make it impossible for affordable housing in new construction.

Dennis | 11:55 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

Hello... do you folks on the hill understand that we are still suffering through a very weak housing market!? Placing a tax on services would just about put the final nail in the housing market coffin! Please be intelligent about this, and find some other way to fill the $850 million deficit.
I'm opposed to a tax on services!!!

Chris | 11:56 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009

A tax on professional services would devastate our chances of economic recovery. Taxing health related services would make a bad problem worse. Don't include health related and you don't raise enough money to justify the damage done to the other half of the equation. It would destroy the housing market, which is a third of our economy and suffering enough as it is. Gov. Huntsman's accountants on this committee need to look harder, or maybe Gov. Herbert should use some different people to advise him....

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