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Governor opposes initiative on ethics
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Legislators Need to Act | 1:11 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
If the legislators do not take action to enact meaningful ethics reform in the
next session, then the people of Utah will via the initiative. The legislature
needs to "get off the dime."
guv is right | 1:13 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
Herbert is exactly right. the legislature better approve its own ethics
improvements, but this initiative is ridiculous. if you think the leg is a
circus now, wait until any two or three citizens can indict sitting legislators
in a state where part time service means there will always be a conflict of
interest. this initiative, if passed, will destroy the life of anyone who runs
for the legislature--regardless of party. it would truly be tyranny from a
small minority, and it would be much better to have them come up with a solution
themselves that satisfies the public.
Comments continue below
Utah Mom | 1:24 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
To Stalling:
Have you read the initiative? It's terrible. Anyone considering signing should read it and see it doesn't solve what good ethics reform should solve. Best idea for reform was on the Des News editorial page from a subscriber: Elected officials declare everything, even a $5 combo meal, and from whom. Let's get some transparency and have no excuses anymore.
Have you read the initiative? It's terrible. Anyone considering signing should read it and see it doesn't solve what good ethics reform should solve. Best idea for reform was on the Des News editorial page from a subscriber: Elected officials declare everything, even a $5 combo meal, and from whom. Let's get some transparency and have no excuses anymore.
Pagan | 1:32 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
'Gov. Gary Herbert said Thursday he can't support a citizens
initiative on ethics reform.'
Just like Gov. Gary Herbert can't support his citizens.
If his excuse is 'but the LEGISLATOR should do it!' then please, do so.
Because right now, it looks like our elected leaders here in Utah don't want us to know what they do.
Just like Gov. Gary Herbert can't support his citizens.
If his excuse is 'but the LEGISLATOR should do it!' then please, do so.
Because right now, it looks like our elected leaders here in Utah don't want us to know what they do.
Anonymous | 1:36 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
Gary,
You need to decide if you are OUR governor or the legislatures gov. If you cannot be on our side, may your term be short.
The legislature has had years of knowing that we are not happy with their ethics laws. They have done nothing to change them. Too late.
Now, Gary, who's side are you on?
You need to decide if you are OUR governor or the legislatures gov. If you cannot be on our side, may your term be short.
The legislature has had years of knowing that we are not happy with their ethics laws. They have done nothing to change them. Too late.
Now, Gary, who's side are you on?
WE THE PEOPLE | 1:45 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
have had enough of ETHICS CHALLENGED POLITICOS.
We could wait around until the "initiative" was perfect, however the time for waiting is over.
We could wait around until the "initiative" was perfect, however the time for waiting is over.
RE .. Stalling | 1:56 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
I know they "think we're stupid and won't notice". Sad, but
they're probably right.
The governor and/or the legislature want to police themselves. That way they can control the damage when any improprieties occur, or should I say accidently discovered by us citizens.
According to another article in today's DNews the majority of Utahns think we need Health Care Reform. Do you think Hatch, Bennett, Bishop, or Matheson give a damn what we want? NO! They think they know what's best for all of us and will vote the way they want, not the way us their constituents want. To assume we are part of their decision making or thinking is ludicrous.
We the people have given our government away both locally and nationally and we don't have a clue how to get it back.
Somebody please convince me otherwise ....
The governor and/or the legislature want to police themselves. That way they can control the damage when any improprieties occur, or should I say accidently discovered by us citizens.
According to another article in today's DNews the majority of Utahns think we need Health Care Reform. Do you think Hatch, Bennett, Bishop, or Matheson give a damn what we want? NO! They think they know what's best for all of us and will vote the way they want, not the way us their constituents want. To assume we are part of their decision making or thinking is ludicrous.
We the people have given our government away both locally and nationally and we don't have a clue how to get it back.
Somebody please convince me otherwise ....
alice | 2:15 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
Big surprise.
bluecollar | 2:26 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
balderdash.
the reform initiative is unnecessarily harsh, but it's what's needed to get the attention of our state legislators.
we have waited for them to reform themselves and they failed to do it.
if we continue to wait for the utah state legislature to voluntarily enact reforms and impose meaningful ethical standards upon themselves, it will never happen.
the benefit of a part-time legislature is to encourage citizen-legislators to serve as true representatives of their constituents. our legislators, induced by the lobbyist system, have completley warped the concept.
the reform initiative is unnecessarily harsh, but it's what's needed to get the attention of our state legislators.
we have waited for them to reform themselves and they failed to do it.
if we continue to wait for the utah state legislature to voluntarily enact reforms and impose meaningful ethical standards upon themselves, it will never happen.
the benefit of a part-time legislature is to encourage citizen-legislators to serve as true representatives of their constituents. our legislators, induced by the lobbyist system, have completley warped the concept.
PRC | 2:44 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
I am an attorney. I have read the initiative and I think I understand it.
There are a couple of problems but, in my opinion, I don't think those
problems warrant throwing it out. I will probably sign a petition to have it
placed on the ballot if the legislature does not act in the upcoming general
session to pass meaningful ethics reform - which they promise to do each year
when up for re-election.
Jonathan | 3:40 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
A career politician objecting to ethics reform? Who would have guessed?
Politicians | 4:13 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
There are no Ethics in Politics, These Politicians should all be thrown out on
their heads and the State of Utah starts over with people who have never held
public office and can not be bought. That is what I liked about Huntsman, he
could not be bought and spoke his mind and did what he thought was best for the
State of Utah. Put them all in Jail as most Ploiticians are Crooks
Anonymous | 5:18 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
There would be ethics in politics if we would end the game of horsetrading votes
for earmarks, at least in Washington. Mingling business with government has
always been a bad idea. It is causing our nation to be in terrible debt.
It's one of the reasons why I started attending all the rallies and which
led to my running for U.S. Senate. Our junior senator is part of the problem
there, and is ranked in the 91% for big spending. He just received thousands in
campaign funds from one of the banks he bailed out. This is fundamentally
wrong. I'm the only candidate willing to make this a top priority. I hope
people will start listening and learning from the information at Independence
Caucus icaucus dot org.
Anonymous | 5:20 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
I forgot to sign my name - Cherilyn Eagar re: the earmarks.
SRD | 5:44 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
Why nhis it that we get this group of posters that say "have you read this
propsal, it's a mess" They never expalin what they disagree with,
just that they don't like it.
Like PRC stated, it may not be perfect, but in my opinion it is a start.
Like PRC stated, it may not be perfect, but in my opinion it is a start.
trim the fat | 6:21 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
the goverment elected official need to be governed because they act unethicly
whats wrong with this picture!!! Gov Herbert is the most ethical guy I have ever
met with no rules to make him so, let him craft this otherwise the rules
won't be punchy enough to stop anyone
Sign me up | 7:23 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
I am fed up with this bunch of ethically challenged buffoons and Herbert has
decided to join them.
Where do I sign up?
Where do I sign up?
Enough! | 7:40 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
Do any of you griping about ethics reform for the legislature actually know a
legislator personally? Can anyone give me a specific instance of a legislator
violating their oath of office or having an undisclosed conflict of interest
that affects their ability to serve fairly - one you know of personally and not
from the news? Or, are you just buying the line the media gives? What about
ethics reform for the executive or judicial branches?
Our legislators, by and large, are very good men and women who dedicate hundreds of (unpaid) hours each year in the name of public service. "guv is right" hit the nail on the head. Anyone serving in the legislature will have a conflict of interest. These upstanding folks deserve better from us. Yes, there are a few bad apples and the people in their districts need to vote them out.
Rather than rant on a message board, get out and do something about it. Write your legislator and get to know their views. Work to support good candidates and to remove those who don't share your views, but stop the name calling and rancor. I, for one, am tired of hearing it!
Our legislators, by and large, are very good men and women who dedicate hundreds of (unpaid) hours each year in the name of public service. "guv is right" hit the nail on the head. Anyone serving in the legislature will have a conflict of interest. These upstanding folks deserve better from us. Yes, there are a few bad apples and the people in their districts need to vote them out.
Rather than rant on a message board, get out and do something about it. Write your legislator and get to know their views. Work to support good candidates and to remove those who don't share your views, but stop the name calling and rancor. I, for one, am tired of hearing it!
Instereo | 9:05 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
The reason the people have started this Ethics Reform is because the legislature
has ignored it, stalled it, denied it, and pretended it wasn't needed. The
Democrats tried, the Republicans made sure it didn't happen. If Herbert
would stand behind it, it would be news but since he's not it's more
of a notice then news.
Tab L. Uno | 10:27 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
Elected officials I believe should be held to a higher standard of honesty and
integrity. Due process under the law which refers to criminal violations
isn't the same as ethics violations of a political nature. The burden of
proof certainly isn't the same standard as guilty beyond a resonable doubt.
Gov. Herbert still needs to be more specific as to what he is concerned about
due process and the standard he is willing to apply to state legislators and
elected officials. Preponderance of evidence seems like a reasonable standard
to use for elected officials who are elected on the basis of the public trust.
What is Gov. Herbert's standard?
Herbert is Herbert is Herbert... | 11:13 p.m. Oct. 22, 2009
You have got to be kidding! How could intelligent, thoughtful person ever have
expected Herbert to change his spots. As Lt. Gov, he refused to enforce the
"ethics" reform package passed last legislative session. Being the
consumate politician, he will continue to fight any proposal that could by any
means be designed to attempt to force his buddies in the Legislature to have
even the most vague appearance of ethics.
News flash. | 3:32 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009
What the initiative does is criminalize unethical, dishonest, and immoral
behavior of those entrusted with our representation. To be charged for any of
these crimes they then become the defendant as in any crime and they do get
their day in court.
Just so you know, the legislators have already made some proposed changes, but with lots of loopholes and with self regulating control. The legislators versions do not want accountability and demand a secret processes for any charges of criminal behavior. The legislators do not want open government or accountability or restrictions. I doubt they will ever come close to passing any ethical and accountability reform laws on their own.
So its not only that the initiative may have flaws, the legislators are flawed even worse. Bad law or good it doesn't matter, only the people can do what is necessary for change in ethical government. The peoples initiative has been scrutinized for legal flaws and it passes the muster.
If these legislators are such upstanding and religious people then how come they fear ethical reform? Their fear only proves we need major reform to help remind these upstanding criminals that they are accountable to the people.
Just so you know, the legislators have already made some proposed changes, but with lots of loopholes and with self regulating control. The legislators versions do not want accountability and demand a secret processes for any charges of criminal behavior. The legislators do not want open government or accountability or restrictions. I doubt they will ever come close to passing any ethical and accountability reform laws on their own.
So its not only that the initiative may have flaws, the legislators are flawed even worse. Bad law or good it doesn't matter, only the people can do what is necessary for change in ethical government. The peoples initiative has been scrutinized for legal flaws and it passes the muster.
If these legislators are such upstanding and religious people then how come they fear ethical reform? Their fear only proves we need major reform to help remind these upstanding criminals that they are accountable to the people.
To Enough! | 4:45 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009
State or Federal, it all works the same.
Lets just look at the Health Care Lobby, to name just one.
Max Baucus has received more than $2.8 MILLION in his career
Chuck Grassley and Orrin Hatch have collectively raked in over $4 Million.
And this is a drop in the bucket.
I will admit that there is a remote possibility these minds have not been changed by huge sums of money. Very remote. More likely, these votes are bought and paid for. I suggest that the lobbyists run our country and get lots for the dollars spend. "Appearance of impropriety?" What a joke. These people take it over the table and laugh all the way to the bank.
Lets just look at the Health Care Lobby, to name just one.
Max Baucus has received more than $2.8 MILLION in his career
Chuck Grassley and Orrin Hatch have collectively raked in over $4 Million.
And this is a drop in the bucket.
I will admit that there is a remote possibility these minds have not been changed by huge sums of money. Very remote. More likely, these votes are bought and paid for. I suggest that the lobbyists run our country and get lots for the dollars spend. "Appearance of impropriety?" What a joke. These people take it over the table and laugh all the way to the bank.
Disappointed in Herbert | 9:01 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009
Gary Herbert's flustering, stuttering inability to make a decision is
starting to wear thin. We see here in Herbert's lack of support for the
citizens' initiative, the "good-'ol boy network" side of
him. Will some good honest-hearted people step up and challenge Herbert for
2010, please??
Oh Please | 9:33 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009
A Republican governor has problems with ethics? Who woulda thunkit!
Coleman | 10:06 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009
The article says that Herbert opposes the ethics initiative, not that he opposes
ethics. Indeed, the article makes the point that the governor hopes the
pressure of the initiative will move the legislature to enact stronger rules on
its own.
Guv's VERY thorough review | 10:52 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009
I love how the governor says he wanted to hear all sides of this initiative yet
didn't meet with the group proposing it.
It is disappointing to me that Herbert is shaping up to be a governor who always tries to say the right thing yet without substance to back it up.
It is disappointing to me that Herbert is shaping up to be a governor who always tries to say the right thing yet without substance to back it up.
Legislature Too Late | 11:00 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009
The Utah has legislature has had years to do something and has chose to do
nothing. I signed the initiative and will gladly vote in support of it.
Like the health care debate, years and years have passed without any progress. Don't complain when someone else gets it done. You (Utah Legislature) had your chance, you failed and now deal with it.
The continual arrogance of Utah's legislature is appauling, its time someone does something to hold them accountable. Repeatedly they have shown their unwillingness to do anything of any substance.
Like the health care debate, years and years have passed without any progress. Don't complain when someone else gets it done. You (Utah Legislature) had your chance, you failed and now deal with it.
The continual arrogance of Utah's legislature is appauling, its time someone does something to hold them accountable. Repeatedly they have shown their unwillingness to do anything of any substance.
Re: Enough! | 11:05 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009
Um, the whole reason this initiative is moving forward isn't because
there's a false perception by people who have never met a legislator that
there may be some bad apples.
I have met many, many legislators, and it is true that there are a lot of politicians and yet very few statesmen (or stateswomen). Some of them are great people. But I could include a list off the top of my head who I have personally seen behave unethically.
Let's take Greg Curtis as an example, because he's no longer a legislator and was always an easy target. Things like "Guzzle Gate" (and many other things) seemed to reek of ethical problems to the public, but the political power structure liked to just dismiss people's concerns.
As a republican I am signing the petition because I have a distrust of state government that I think is well earned. If Herbert and legislative leadership don't like the initiatives, I wonder what they're so afraid of.
I love the argument that many legislators won't run again if this passes. I say, "Awesome! We should've done this YEARS ago!"
I have met many, many legislators, and it is true that there are a lot of politicians and yet very few statesmen (or stateswomen). Some of them are great people. But I could include a list off the top of my head who I have personally seen behave unethically.
Let's take Greg Curtis as an example, because he's no longer a legislator and was always an easy target. Things like "Guzzle Gate" (and many other things) seemed to reek of ethical problems to the public, but the political power structure liked to just dismiss people's concerns.
As a republican I am signing the petition because I have a distrust of state government that I think is well earned. If Herbert and legislative leadership don't like the initiatives, I wonder what they're so afraid of.
I love the argument that many legislators won't run again if this passes. I say, "Awesome! We should've done this YEARS ago!"
GOV. is Right | 11:14 a.m. Oct. 23, 2009
Prove yourself innocent because a complaint makes you guilty is a bad deal. So,
just because someone doesn't like their legislature they can accuse them of
something, and that legislature has to prove him/her self innocent. WOW. This
is a bad deal. I agree with the GOV.
wallofvoodoo | 12:23 p.m. Oct. 23, 2009
Of course he opposes it since he doesn't have any.
Suzanne | 10:49 p.m. Oct. 25, 2009
I have studied the Ethics Initative and I am very concerned that the top 5
"sponsors" who submitted the initiative can select nominees for this
Commission, delegating government power to a self-selected citizen group is very
unconstitutional. We are For the People and By the People. This commission are
all non-elected individuals since when is this constitutional? It is not! Of
course there should always be improvement & reform, they have done so and
will continue. Allowing any 3 people to file a complaint against an elected
official considering them guilty unless proven innocent? What is that?
Attorneys hired with your tax dollars to go to court taken from our income tax?
Everyone is absolutely insane to sign this without reading and UNDERSTANDING how
dangerous it is. It allows uncontrolled punishment towards our officials.
Citizens need to vote in those to govern and when they do not do so to our
liking vote them out..not let a handful of people, un-elected by us, run the
government. Socialism if I ever saw it. Be careful people and don't fall
for the deceiving title of ETHICS. Sure everyone wants Ethics..that is not what
this is.
Bad initiative | 7:08 a.m. Oct. 27, 2009
Lets see, you can't be a Rep or Sen if you work for a company with a
lobbyist. That takes out most of them, including people that are accountants
with the LDS Church, or work for large companies. You don't even have to
have met the lobbyist.
Lets have ethical reform. This isn't it. This is a planned take over by a small group that the democrats were stupid enough to back.
Lets have ethical reform. This isn't it. This is a planned take over by a small group that the democrats were stupid enough to back.
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They have become used to receiving alot of perks. If they cannot come to an agreement on an ETHICS
POLICY, they can continue the status quo.
I think they think we are all stupid and we won't notice.