Deseret News | Part 5: Health care

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Part 5: Health care — a right?

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Brian | 10:55 p.m. Oct. 21, 2009

Yep. Those mean old conservatives just want to see people dying in the street! Thanks Deseret News for setting us all straight on that!

ok | 10:55 p.m. Oct. 21, 2009

So are "Rights" paid for by the government? Just, what is a "Right" and why is it a "crises" now verses 5 years, or 10 years ago? If I have a "Right" to carry a gun does that make you financially sssssliable for that "Right"?

Then... | 11:01 p.m. Oct. 21, 2009

If health coverage is a right, so is owning a big screen TV or a new SUV for the winter. I think the government should give me everything else as well.

Comments continue below

Aric | 11:06 p.m. Oct. 21, 2009

I'm not sure if I view health care as a right, but I do believe that a compassionate society accepts the responsibility to care for its own. The argument I've heard from conservatives is that the only "true" way to do this is on an ad-hoc, hodge-podge, volunteer basis, where each person contributes to cases they deem desirable and withholds support from cases they deem undesirable, so that care for the needy becomes some kind of sick popularity contest.

I strongly disagree with this viewpoint. Society CAN come together and decide that each member will make a certain contribution toward the well-being of the whole community, and that community members will benefit according to their need and the resources available. We already provide some care to those in need, but we do it in expensive, inefficient, often humiliating ways. We can do better, and in doing so we can significantly reduce costs for everyone.

No medical insurance | 11:29 p.m. Oct. 21, 2009

My wife and I have college degrees. My wife lost her job last month. I was rif by the state due to budget cuts. Cobra is to expensive we can't afford it. It is more costly than what my wife will get from her unemployment insurance monthly. What will you do? on my situation. What did we do wrong? Where is all the tax money that I had pay all this years? Why should I pay taxes if I had nothing back exept to drive in the freeway. What do I want a freeway when I dont have a chance to see a physician when I am sick neither access to medication. This is sick. All of this ignorants talking against changes in the medical care system of this country I bet they don't have medical insurance. Does Mr Hatch has medical insurance? Sure pay by the tax payers money. What a joke.

Rights? | 11:33 p.m. Oct. 21, 2009

There are only two kinds of rights.

There are unalienable rights given by God such as "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Then there are rights given to you by the government, such as A driver's license gives you the right to drive on public roads, or a hunting license allows you to hunt. As such the government can give, and the government can take those away.

Certainly health care is not an unalienable right.

Re: Aric 11:06 pm | 11:41 p.m. Oct. 21, 2009

"Society CAN come together and decide that each member will make a certain contribution toward the well-being of the whole community, and that community members will benefit according to their need and the resources available."

Nice. Society can decide that each member has to make a certain contribution. Which commission will decide this? How will they enforce it? How many tax dollars do you think they'll spend on these commissions & enforcements?

I'm sure that would make health care MUCH less expensive.

Logic Please | 11:54 p.m. Oct. 21, 2009

To "No Medical Insurance" My goodness how people get confused.
First off, I'm sorry about you and your wife losing jobs and insurance; I've been there myself.

But what does your paying taxes, and MY paying taxes all these years have anything to do with your losing health insurance when you lost your job? You GAVE that money to the GOVERNMENT so they could WASTE it. Do we want to give MORE money to the government in HOPES that in their benevolence they'll give us a Wonderful health care system?

Have you seen the abysmal state that Medicaid and Medicare are in?

Lew Jeppson | 12:27 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

Of course health care is a right, that's why we mandate hospital emergency rooms treat regardless of the ability to pay. All we're talking about here, with reform, is making this arrangement more reasonable, equitable, and timely. What part of this does Senator Hatch not understand?

Re: Re: Aric 11:06 pm | 12:29 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

Keep your head in the sand if you want. Every other industrialized nation but ours has figured out some system of universal coverage. Guess whose citizens pay through the nose for their health care? That would be us Americans.

We may not pay for commissions, but we pay for insurance companies' marketing, big bonuses to their executives, and dividends to their shareholders. We pay for the inefficiency of several companies all trying to do the same thing and our doctors having to keep all the different billing procedures and plan details straight (and directly related to this, the waste on both ends when procedures have been billed incorrectly). We pay for debt collectors to harrass people with no ability to pay their outlandish bills. We pay for dubious procedures that cover our doctors' butts more often than they provide any material benefit to patients. No commission is that expensive or wasteful.

Every other nation in the world with a standard of living comparable to ours has found one way or another to cover everybody at a cost that is substantially lower per capita than what the average American pays for a year of healthcare.

Nic | 12:33 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

In your dreams "he will be treated". My son 'fell down on the side walk', he was not 'all right' and was not 'treated' because 'of his ability to pay'. He needed a heart transplant ~$750,000.

If you can not pay for medical care you should not get it! Only those who want something for nothing demand medical care as a right.

Anonymous | 12:55 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

So when communists and socialists vote to take your hard earned money and property under the color of law do we have a right to resist violently?

MikeH | 1:25 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

We place police, fire protection and education above the right to health care. If life is not a right, what is?

Why are the bailout capitalists so afraid of Government competition, if they are so wasteful?

Anonymous | 1:57 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

Heath care is definitely a right! Who are we to say who can or can't have good health? Who are we to tell people if they can live or die?

This argument is so obvious it seems stupid to me.

kim | 2:14 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

To Nic "and if the poor need to die, why let them die, and decrease the surplus population!" You sound just like scrooge.

I am a simple person | 2:43 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

I tend to see things in simple terms. If I have a choice to vote for people who will raise taxes on coroprate executives who get the mult-million dollar bonuses, in order to ensure that all kids and their hard working parents get health care I will.

We accept that education not only is a right, but is beneficial to society. All the arguments against health care can also be brought education.

We are all in this together. Those of us who have gotten the breaks need to share with those who are on the bottom rungs. I am an engineer, I have a good job. Were it not for public education, who knows where I would be?

Anonymous | 3:21 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

We have a right to lower health bills too.

If we are paying more than any other nation for healthcare than we should have the best healthcare.

Instead only the wealthy can afford good healthcare and the rest of us with insurance cannot even get it or afford it.

The United States healthcare overall is rated #34 not #1.

This means we should only be paying less for healthcare than 33 other countries.

The American Consumer is getting ripped off.

The Healthcare system in this country is a Farce Scam!

WE HAVE A RIGHT TO BE GIVEN WHAT WE PAY FOR AND WE ARE NOT GETTING THE RESULTS.

Utah Doc | 3:40 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

The Constitution does not mention health care as a "right". While it sounds nice, healthcare is not guaranteed under the Constitution.

The governments all controlling approach will drain what's left of the incentive out of medicine. You'll be hard pressed to find a smart kid that will spend 12 years in school only to get out and work for government wages.

Please, no sob stories. | 4:11 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

Whether or not you have insurance for some personal reason is immaterial and a personal choice. When people can get insurance with a job it is a personal choice to buy it or not and that's the way it should be.

Health care and education is not a right. They are privileges. As a right the state can tax us for education and we only have the right, as citizens, to use these taxes for education, but only for the primary 12 years. Higher education is not included in our constitutuion as taxable and is illegal.

It is unconstituional for citizens to expect government be personal benefactors of government spending or welfare for any reason including health care. Free enterprise and freedom of choice is the right we have as citizens.

There is no comparison of american health care system to other industrialized nations who have at best a low end health care system. And they don't have or pay insurance companies. These other industrialized nations own the health care system, its doctors, hospitals, drug companies that control costs and services. It's not a free market system with individual choices, government chooses care.

Stickfigure | 4:56 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

I think we need to differentiate on whether health CARE is a right, or heath INSURANCE is a right. If a person is taken to an emergency room, that person will be treated, as it is against the law for them to be denied treatment.

How about my right to have a medical savings plan, in lieu of costly insurance? My right to negotiate with Dr.s on the cost of treatment, or the right of insurance companies to compete state-to-state, nationwide?

Anonymous | 5:22 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

Whatever happened to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Right have your neighbor pay for your doctor visit? Hmmm ...

WH | 5:41 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

I am from Europe and to me it is difficult to understand why healthcare reform is such a controversial subject in the US. To all outside observers it is obvious that the US healthcare system is long overdue for a major overhaul. I must say that the socialized healthcare system found in many European countries work quite well, even though that too has its shortcomings. Anyway basic healthcare should be a right for everybody, I do not think it is right to compare it to buying luxury goods.

I think it is strange that in the US many think it is perfectly OK to spend tax money to heal sick banks, but spending it to heal sick people would be an abomination.

Democrats are right on this issu | 6:15 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

The mark of a decent person is to be conserned about the well being of people other than themselves. If it was true that the only people without access to decent health care were people who refused to work, I could see the conservative point of view, but that isn't the case.

There are many working people, working at jobs where health care insurance isn't an option. I myself was laid off from a job and couldn't find another job with insurance for over 2 years.

One of the companies I had worked for during that period was 3-Com making palm pilots west of the Salt Lake Airport. I was working next to others who had health insurance, but all new employees hired to do that job such as I couldn't get it. I was technically working not for 3-Com but for a subcontractor they paid to supply them with workers.

I found it interesting and reprehensible they could afford to pay millions to get Candle Stick park named to 3-Com park and that they could afford to pay all the top execs millions each, but we couldn't get health insurance.

Listen to yourselves | 6:29 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

People of Utah, readers of the Deseret News, fellow Mormons (I assume most Deseret News readers are LDS)...

Listen to what it is that you are saying. Out of one side of your mouth you sneer at people unfortunate enough to not have the ability to get adequate medical care for them or their children. And out of the other side of your mouths you complain that many people outside Utah (read not LDS) say the Mormons aren't "Christian". Well, Mormons are Christian, really, but you wouldn't know it by their attitude on this issue. Many Utahns (read LDS) truly are not Christian on this issue of providing basic health care to everyone.

As has been been stated every other industrialized (and many not so industrialized) country provides basic health care to their citizens at a fraction of the cost that we do. These people in these "other" countries generally live longer and are healthier than we are and they don't go bankrupt when they get sick.

Let's see if we can truly be Christians on this issue, Utahns can do better in their attitudes toward those less fortunate.

Anonymous | 6:38 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

People should have the right to the amazing healthcare we have today. Should it be free? Absolutly not. Yes, there could be some reform, but not what Obama and his comunist friends are coming up with.

Foreign health care | 6:55 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

Have you seen what happens in England or Australia or other countries with government health care??? The wait just to see a GP is days if not weeks and to get major surgery???!!!!

My husband and I didn't have insurance the first few years of our married life and we KNEW that and to steps accordingly. We had a savings account for just in case, and we were made sure that we took care of ourselves and our children, (yes we had those while we had no insurance and paid the doctor along the way).

Insurance is NOT A RIGHT, IT IS A PRIVILEGE!!!!!

People need to get over this sense of entitlement. Should we try and help our 'community'? Definitely. But community should be helping themselves too!!

Doug G | 7:03 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

We've established institutions like the military, police, fire protection, public education, etc. because we know that these are necessary for everyone in society. They are paid for by all of us. None among us will ever 'need' a big screen tv or SUV. We all will need health care. All of us. That's why we should all have it as a cornerstone of our society.

From a Belgian | 7:07 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

As a Belgian living in Utah, it is hard to understand how those against "health care right" immediately shout "communism". That's a simplistic generalization.

Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Germany... all have universal health care without being "communist" countries. These industrialized nations have found ways to make sure all citizens enjoy health care, just as they provide education to the children. The US is lagging behind and reform is really necessary.

stumblefall | 7:07 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

Health care is not a right. The argument that it is as much a right as universal education is absolutely correct, because education is not a right, either. It should surprise no one that having fulfilled one of Marx's main tenets for socialism / communism (free education for all) that our populous now has come to the conclusion that health care is a right.

Rights come from God. The Constitution protects those rights. You can't simply make up a right and start enforcing it with a gun, even by a Constitutional amendment. One of the basic rights is property. It is unconscionable to seize my property (in this case, by taxing my money) to pay for someone else's healthcare.

"Who are we to say who can or can't have good health?" Who are YOU to say how MY money should be spent? "Who are we to tell people if they can live or die?" Who are YOU to play God with my rights?

These kinds of arguments are made by those who want to right the wrongs in the world by appealing to the force of government. But only free, God-fearing individuals can truly succeed.

Bob Newsome | 7:09 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

I hope Hatch never has a suffering grandchild go untreated because of a profit oriented market based system of health care, but I find his views disturbing. But of course he probably gets enough money from the insurance and tobacco industries to not ever have to worry about these things.

Janet | 7:10 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

There are many rights that we take for granted in 2009 America that were not dreamed of by the Framers, nor mentioned in the Constitution. This is an argument between the haves and have-nots. My husband and I are both employed, and we are double-covered. My sister's husband is self-employed, and my sister is his only "employee," although she does not get a salary, as such. They have never been able to afford health care. They have worked very hard, brought up eight kids, and always paid their way, but they have never made any more money than they needed for the basics. While I can't afford to pay their medical costs, I would gladly pay a little more in taxes to help. We who have been greatly blessed cannot afford to be haughty. "Are we not all beggars?"

ANON | 7:11 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

You have the right to take care of your self. You do not have the right to have someone else take care of you after you reach a certain age and are mentally able to.

Founding Fathers | 7:13 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Note, happiness is not guaranteed, merely the pursuit. Health care is a privilege, not a right. You are paying for a service.

Anonymous | 7:13 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

How about the right to keep some of the money I earn. Where is the liberty in me giving half of the money I earn to the government who then decides to give it to people who don't even pay taxes (stimulus package - that I didn't get) or cash for a new car (cash for clunkers). If I have to pay for someones health care, I should have a say in their health. If you don't excercise 5 days a week for 30 minutes or if you eat fast food, or if you watch TV, I should have the "right" to force you to comply.

Hatch describes our rights, health care is not one of them. The more control we give our government, the fewer rights we will have.

Evets | 7:15 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

Another DN Health sob story defending universal health care. Sometime I feel I a reading the SL Tribune. Are you guys sharing writers?
First, health care is not a right BUT we as a society try to get health care to everyone. Working in the health care industry I know that overall the industry tries to help all regardless of ability to pay. I know....there are still exceptions.
Second, most conservative I know want insurance reform, tort reform, and some type of health safety net. They just don't want Obamacare or Obama-lite. Why tear apart a good system when simple reforms will fix it at a lower cost.
Third, government health care is not free or cheap. It costs a lot in tax dollars. Have you ever seen anything the government does that is cheaper than private industry? I have been around for over six decades and I sure have not.

MR. B | 7:15 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

To Senators Hatch & Bennett,
I hope that you are able to sleep at night when you sit in judgement over millions of people's lives and decide that the health insurance companies should be able to send some of us into financial ruin BECAUSE WE GOT SICK. When did the Republican party lose its ability to be compassionate? Why shouldn't we have access to the same health care that our elected officials have?

Anonymous | 7:18 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

A right to "access" is much different than a right to have it.

Everyone, even illegal aliens, has a right to access. No one is turned down.

Push poll | 7:28 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

That question was very obviously slanted to elicit a certain answer. Sloppy reporting.

I don't care what you think | 7:41 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

Stickfigure

"I think we need to differentiate on whether health CARE is a right, or heath INSURANCE is a right."

I don't care what you think. You can try to differentiate between health care and health insurance but it makes you a fool.

It's time for the kid gloves to come off. I just wished the Deseret News allowed profanity because you would hear exactly what I think about you and your opinion and I can guarantee you that you have not heard the likes of it before.

"How about my right to have a medical savings plan, in lieu of costly insurance? My right to negotiate with Dr.s on the cost of treatment, or the right of insurance companies to compete state-to-state, nationwide?"

When you can't afford it and the government has to give subsidies to hospitals because you were rushed there after you got into a car accident and accrued an 800,000 to $1.5 million dollar bill then we can talk. Let's see how far your medical savings plan goes then but I bet you will want charity or government to pay.

wallofvoodoo | 7:43 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

Until doctors, lawyers, health insurance companies & health care companies start going out of business beacuse nobody can afford care will you get the attention of any Utah politicians. Change it now or this will happen.

stumblefall | 7:43 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

To: Listen to yourselves

So in your opinion, LTY, one of the fundamental tenets of Christianity is supporting government in its efforts to forcibly seize taxpayer funds to provide basic services?

Isn't it possible that a true Christian believes in freedom? Somewhere in the teachings of the LDS Church I believe there might be a section about agency, I'm not sure...maybe like we actually get to choose to do right or wrong, without being forced by Satan to do right...something like that.

This life is the time to prepare to meet God. If you really are a Christian and do your best to help out your neighbors, you will be blessed for it. Inserting the government into the equation makes it much more difficult for us to have the choice to help out charitably. I don't envision God interviewing the 80% of Utahns that believe healthcare is a right and saying "It's okay that you misunderstood one of the most fundamental aspects of the Plan of Salvation and ended up taking Satan's side in this argument. I can see how it was confusing."

Anonymous | 7:44 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

Approach it as a right under Christian teachings. Why do we want to deprive health care for millions of Americans, most through no fault of their own, and even if some stupidly jeopardize themselves. I think Christian teachings would have us help any way. Yep, I'll "err" in that direction....

Reality check... | 7:50 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

So healthcare is a basic human right? If so, what else are human rights? Food, shelter, a car? I could easily argue that food and shelter are more basic human rights than healthcare and yet there are millions of people throughout the world that not only don't have access to healthcare, they don't have adequate food or shelter either.

If these things are basic human rights, why do so many in the world wake up each day wondering where their next meal is going to come from?

Unfortunately, we don't live in a utopian, ideal world where governments have unlimited resources and can just write a check for every citizen in their country to have whatever they need or want. There are always financial restraints and concerns that don't make this utopian world possible (Obama's solution is to just print more money). Last I checked, our country is already insolvent.

When it comes to "basic human rights" and entitlements, where do you draw the line? Food, shelter, cars? At what point do people take a measure of responsibilty to provide for themselves and not rely on the government and others to make their way?

MegP | 7:51 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

Faith, Hope, & Charity & the greatest of these is Charity...Love one another as I have loved you...Be our brothers Keeper...Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Healthcare is a privilege; not a right. Charity is the gift that makes it possible. Yes, we can take care of one another, but not through compulsory government programs. Charity is voluntary. No one stops any of us from giving to charity, irregardless of tax incentives. We can always give what we can in our time,talents & means.

If we all were generous, & thought of others first before filling our own temporal wants (not needs), yes, the world would be a better place.

None of us have unlimited monies; we all have to budget their use. How we spend our discretionary funds, whether on charity or a house bigger than we need; whether on building our bank account & investment portfolio or forgiving someone's debt; whether on someone else's needs (not wants) or on keeping up with the Jones.

Charity is the answer: Donate your time, talents & means to your favorite Healthcare. Mine is LDS - IHC - IMC.

cb | 7:54 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

You do not have the right to expect your neighbor to pay for your bad health choices. We have forgotten how much charities used to do in this country. Everybody is for helping others but charity is not done through the force of taxation. Think of how much more we could help the needy if we did not pay so much in taxes.

Interesting comments | 7:55 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

What it appears is that this country is really in is described in the story of the "Camel and the tent." Give an inch and before you know, you are booted out and have nothing.

Does anyone know where the LDS | 7:58 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

Church stands on National Health Insurance?
I'm wondering if the LDS Church if for or against National Health Coverage?
Anyone?

Take a stand | 8:03 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

Wait, everybody can go to a hospital and receive treatment, Insurance or not. The problem is that hospital bills have become so outrageous because we the consumer have let them. We figure, Okay treat me, I don't care what it costs, the insurance company will pay for it. The health idustry has expenencially increased its costs over the past twenty years because they know they will get paid. Even if the insurance company is going to pay for it, can't we stand up and say "enough is enough"? There is a reason why insurance coverage is so high, they need to make up for outrageous hospital bills. And it's all because WE allow it to happen.

Selfishness | 8:12 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

The article is right in that most people think healthcare is a right. But the conservative viewpoint of is that healthcare is a right for them and thier families only. Everyone else has to pay for it.

Ho hum... | 8:12 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009

yawn.....

The left is trying their old tactics of making-up new 'rights' to push their agenda.

It isn't enough that their is equal access for all, there must be in the lefty socialist totalitarian 'utopia' the same outcome - except, of course, for themselves. 'progressives' are special, you see, and they don't have to obey the orders they issue for the proles.

Freedom=bad; socialism=good, repeat along with barryy, harry and nancy...

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