Yep. Those mean old conservatives just want to see people dying in the street!
Thanks Deseret News for setting us all straight on that!
So are "Rights" paid for by the government? Just, what is a "Right" and why is
it a "crises" now verses 5 years, or 10 years ago? If I have a "Right" to carry
a gun does that make you financially sssssliable for that "Right"?
If health coverage is a right, so is owning a big screen TV or a new SUV for the
winter. I think the government should give me everything else as well.
I'm not sure if I view health care as a right, but I do believe that a
compassionate society accepts the responsibility to care for its own. The
argument I've heard from conservatives is that the only "true" way to do this is
on an ad-hoc, hodge-podge, volunteer basis, where each person contributes to
cases they deem desirable and withholds support from cases they deem
undesirable, so that care for the needy becomes some kind of sick popularity
contest.I strongly disagree with this viewpoint. Society CAN come
together and decide that each member will make a certain contribution toward the
well-being of the whole community, and that community members will benefit
according to their need and the resources available. We already provide some
care to those in need, but we do it in expensive, inefficient, often humiliating
ways. We can do better, and in doing so we can significantly reduce costs for
My wife and I have college degrees. My wife lost her job last month. I was rif
by the state due to budget cuts. Cobra is to expensive we can't afford it. It is
more costly than what my wife will get from her unemployment insurance monthly.
What will you do? on my situation. What did we do wrong? Where is all the tax
money that I had pay all this years? Why should I pay taxes if I had nothing
back exept to drive in the freeway. What do I want a freeway when I dont have a
chance to see a physician when I am sick neither access to medication. This is
sick. All of this ignorants talking against changes in the medical care system
of this country I bet they don't have medical insurance. Does Mr Hatch has
medical insurance? Sure pay by the tax payers money. What a joke.
There are only two kinds of rights. There are unalienable rights
given by God such as "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."Then there are rights given to you by the government, such as A driver's
license gives you the right to drive on public roads, or a hunting license
allows you to hunt. As such the government can give, and the government can
take those away.Certainly health care is not an unalienable right.
"Society CAN come together and decide that each member will make a certain
contribution toward the well-being of the whole community, and that community
members will benefit according to their need and the resources available."Nice. Society can decide that each member has to make a certain
contribution. Which commission will decide this? How will they enforce it? How
many tax dollars do you think they'll spend on these commissions &
enforcements?I'm sure that would make health care MUCH less
To "No Medical Insurance" My goodness how people get confused. First off,
I'm sorry about you and your wife losing jobs and insurance; I've been there
myself.But what does your paying taxes, and MY paying taxes all
these years have anything to do with your losing health insurance when you lost
your job? You GAVE that money to the GOVERNMENT so they could WASTE it. Do we
want to give MORE money to the government in HOPES that in their benevolence
they'll give us a Wonderful health care system?Have you seen the
abysmal state that Medicaid and Medicare are in?
Of course health care is a right, that's why we mandate hospital emergency rooms
treat regardless of the ability to pay. All we're talking about here, with
reform, is making this arrangement more reasonable, equitable, and timely. What
part of this does Senator Hatch not understand?
Keep your head in the sand if you want. Every other industrialized nation but
ours has figured out some system of universal coverage. Guess whose citizens
pay through the nose for their health care? That would be us Americans.We may not pay for commissions, but we pay for insurance companies'
marketing, big bonuses to their executives, and dividends to their shareholders.
We pay for the inefficiency of several companies all trying to do the same
thing and our doctors having to keep all the different billing procedures and
plan details straight (and directly related to this, the waste on both ends when
procedures have been billed incorrectly). We pay for debt collectors to harrass
people with no ability to pay their outlandish bills. We pay for dubious
procedures that cover our doctors' butts more often than they provide any
material benefit to patients. No commission is that expensive or wasteful.Every other nation in the world with a standard of living comparable to
ours has found one way or another to cover everybody at a cost that is
substantially lower per capita than what the average American pays for a year of
In your dreams "he will be treated". My son 'fell down on the side walk', he
was not 'all right' and was not 'treated' because 'of his ability to pay'. He
needed a heart transplant ~$750,000.If you can not pay for medical
care you should not get it! Only those who want something for nothing demand
medical care as a right.
So when communists and socialists vote to take your hard earned money and
property under the color of law do we have a right to resist violently?
We place police, fire protection and education above the right to health care.
If life is not a right, what is? Why are the bailout capitalists so
afraid of Government competition, if they are so wasteful?
Heath care is definitely a right! Who are we to say who can or can't have good
health? Who are we to tell people if they can live or die? This
argument is so obvious it seems stupid to me.
To Nic "and if the poor need to die, why let them die, and decrease the surplus
population!" You sound just like scrooge.
I tend to see things in simple terms. If I have a choice to vote for people who
will raise taxes on coroprate executives who get the mult-million dollar
bonuses, in order to ensure that all kids and their hard working parents get
health care I will.We accept that education not only is a right, but
is beneficial to society. All the arguments against health care can also be
brought education.We are all in this together. Those of us who have
gotten the breaks need to share with those who are on the bottom rungs. I am an
engineer, I have a good job. Were it not for public education, who knows where
I would be?
We have a right to lower health bills too.If we are paying more than
any other nation for healthcare than we should have the best healthcare.Instead only the wealthy can afford good healthcare and the rest of us
with insurance cannot even get it or afford it.The United States
healthcare overall is rated #34 not #1.This means we should only be
paying less for healthcare than 33 other countries.The American
Consumer is getting ripped off.The Healthcare system in this country
is a Farce Scam!WE HAVE A RIGHT TO BE GIVEN WHAT WE PAY FOR AND WE
ARE NOT GETTING THE RESULTS.
The Constitution does not mention health care as a "right". While it sounds
nice, healthcare is not guaranteed under the Constitution. The
governments all controlling approach will drain what's left of the incentive out
of medicine. You'll be hard pressed to find a smart kid that will spend 12 years
in school only to get out and work for government wages.
Whether or not you have insurance for some personal reason is immaterial and a
personal choice. When people can get insurance with a job it is a personal
choice to buy it or not and that's the way it should be.Health care
and education is not a right. They are privileges. As a right the state can tax
us for education and we only have the right, as citizens, to use these taxes for
education, but only for the primary 12 years. Higher education is not included
in our constitutuion as taxable and is illegal.It is unconstituional
for citizens to expect government be personal benefactors of government spending
or welfare for any reason including health care. Free enterprise and freedom of
choice is the right we have as citizens.There is no comparison of
american health care system to other industrialized nations who have at best a
low end health care system. And they don't have or pay insurance companies.
These other industrialized nations own the health care system, its doctors,
hospitals, drug companies that control costs and services. It's not a free
market system with individual choices, government chooses care.
I think we need to differentiate on whether health CARE is a right, or heath
INSURANCE is a right. If a person is taken to an emergency room, that person
will be treated, as it is against the law for them to be denied treatment. How about my right to have a medical savings plan, in lieu of costly
insurance? My right to negotiate with Dr.s on the cost of treatment, or the
right of insurance companies to compete state-to-state, nationwide?
Whatever happened to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Right have
your neighbor pay for your doctor visit? Hmmm ...
I am from Europe and to me it is difficult to understand why healthcare reform
is such a controversial subject in the US. To all outside observers it is
obvious that the US healthcare system is long overdue for a major overhaul. I
must say that the socialized healthcare system found in many European countries
work quite well, even though that too has its shortcomings. Anyway basic
healthcare should be a right for everybody, I do not think it is right to
compare it to buying luxury goods.I think it is strange that in the
US many think it is perfectly OK to spend tax money to heal sick banks, but
spending it to heal sick people would be an abomination.
The mark of a decent person is to be conserned about the well being of people
other than themselves. If it was true that the only people without access to
decent health care were people who refused to work, I could see the conservative
point of view, but that isn't the case.There are many working
people, working at jobs where health care insurance isn't an option. I myself
was laid off from a job and couldn't find another job with insurance for over 2
years.One of the companies I had worked for during that period was
3-Com making palm pilots west of the Salt Lake Airport. I was working next to
others who had health insurance, but all new employees hired to do that job such
as I couldn't get it. I was technically working not for 3-Com but for a
subcontractor they paid to supply them with workers.I found it
interesting and reprehensible they could afford to pay millions to get Candle
Stick park named to 3-Com park and that they could afford to pay all the top
execs millions each, but we couldn't get health insurance.
People of Utah, readers of the Deseret News, fellow Mormons (I assume most
Deseret News readers are LDS)...Listen to what it is that you are
saying. Out of one side of your mouth you sneer at people unfortunate enough to
not have the ability to get adequate medical care for them or their children.
And out of the other side of your mouths you complain that many people outside
Utah (read not LDS) say the Mormons aren't "Christian". Well, Mormons are
Christian, really, but you wouldn't know it by their attitude on this issue.
Many Utahns (read LDS) truly are not Christian on this issue of providing basic
health care to everyone. As has been been stated every other
industrialized (and many not so industrialized) country provides basic health
care to their citizens at a fraction of the cost that we do. These people in
these "other" countries generally live longer and are healthier than we are and
they don't go bankrupt when they get sick.Let's see if we can truly
be Christians on this issue, Utahns can do better in their attitudes toward
those less fortunate.
People should have the right to the amazing healthcare we have today. Should it
be free? Absolutly not. Yes, there could be some reform, but not what Obama and
his comunist friends are coming up with.
Have you seen what happens in England or Australia or other countries with
government health care??? The wait just to see a GP is days if not weeks and to
get major surgery???!!!!My husband and I didn't have insurance the
first few years of our married life and we KNEW that and to steps accordingly.
We had a savings account for just in case, and we were made sure that we took
care of ourselves and our children, (yes we had those while we had no insurance
and paid the doctor along the way).Insurance is NOT A RIGHT, IT IS A
PRIVILEGE!!!!! People need to get over this sense of entitlement.
Should we try and help our 'community'? Definitely. But community should be
helping themselves too!!
We've established institutions like the military, police, fire protection,
public education, etc. because we know that these are necessary for everyone in
society. They are paid for by all of us. None among us will ever 'need' a big
screen tv or SUV. We all will need health care. All of us. That's why we should
all have it as a cornerstone of our society.
As a Belgian living in Utah, it is hard to understand how those against "health
care right" immediately shout "communism". That's a simplistic generalization.
Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Germany... all have universal health care
without being "communist" countries. These industrialized nations have found
ways to make sure all citizens enjoy health care, just as they provide education
to the children. The US is lagging behind and reform is really necessary.
Health care is not a right. The argument that it is as much a right as universal
education is absolutely correct, because education is not a right, either. It
should surprise no one that having fulfilled one of Marx's main tenets for
socialism / communism (free education for all) that our populous now has come to
the conclusion that health care is a right.Rights come from God. The
Constitution protects those rights. You can't simply make up a right and start
enforcing it with a gun, even by a Constitutional amendment. One of the basic
rights is property. It is unconscionable to seize my property (in this case, by
taxing my money) to pay for someone else's healthcare."Who are we to
say who can or can't have good health?" Who are YOU to say how MY money should
be spent? "Who are we to tell people if they can live or die?" Who are YOU to
play God with my rights?These kinds of arguments are made by those
who want to right the wrongs in the world by appealing to the force of
government. But only free, God-fearing individuals can truly succeed.
I hope Hatch never has a suffering grandchild go untreated because of a profit
oriented market based system of health care, but I find his views disturbing.
But of course he probably gets enough money from the insurance and tobacco
industries to not ever have to worry about these things.
There are many rights that we take for granted in 2009 America that were not
dreamed of by the Framers, nor mentioned in the Constitution. This is an
argument between the haves and have-nots. My husband and I are both employed,
and we are double-covered. My sister's husband is self-employed, and my sister
is his only "employee," although she does not get a salary, as such. They have
never been able to afford health care. They have worked very hard, brought up
eight kids, and always paid their way, but they have never made any more money
than they needed for the basics. While I can't afford to pay their medical
costs, I would gladly pay a little more in taxes to help. We who have been
greatly blessed cannot afford to be haughty. "Are we not all beggars?"
You have the right to take care of your self. You do not have the right to have
someone else take care of you after you reach a certain age and are mentally
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Note, happiness is not guaranteed,
merely the pursuit. Health care is a privilege, not a right. You are paying
for a service.
How about the right to keep some of the money I earn. Where is the liberty in
me giving half of the money I earn to the government who then decides to give it
to people who don't even pay taxes (stimulus package - that I didn't get) or
cash for a new car (cash for clunkers). If I have to pay for someones health
care, I should have a say in their health. If you don't excercise 5 days a week
for 30 minutes or if you eat fast food, or if you watch TV, I should have the
"right" to force you to comply.Hatch describes our rights, health
care is not one of them. The more control we give our government, the fewer
rights we will have.
Another DN Health sob story defending universal health care. Sometime I feel I
a reading the SL Tribune. Are you guys sharing writers?First, health care
is not a right BUT we as a society try to get health care to everyone. Working
in the health care industry I know that overall the industry tries to help all
regardless of ability to pay. I know....there are still exceptions.Second,
most conservative I know want insurance reform, tort reform, and some type of
health safety net. They just don't want Obamacare or Obama-lite. Why tear
apart a good system when simple reforms will fix it at a lower cost.Third,
government health care is not free or cheap. It costs a lot in tax dollars.
Have you ever seen anything the government does that is cheaper than private
industry? I have been around for over six decades and I sure have not.
To Senators Hatch & Bennett, I hope that you are able to sleep at night
when you sit in judgement over millions of people's lives and decide that the
health insurance companies should be able to send some of us into financial ruin
BECAUSE WE GOT SICK. When did the Republican party lose its ability to be
compassionate? Why shouldn't we have access to the same health care that our
elected officials have?
A right to "access" is much different than a right to have it. Everyone, even illegal aliens, has a right to access. No one is turned down.
That question was very obviously slanted to elicit a certain answer. Sloppy
Stickfigure"I think we need to differentiate on whether health CARE
is a right, or heath INSURANCE is a right."I don't care what you
think. You can try to differentiate between health care and health insurance but
it makes you a fool.It's time for the kid gloves to come off. I just
wished the Deseret News allowed profanity because you would hear exactly what I
think about you and your opinion and I can guarantee you that you have not heard
the likes of it before."How about my right to have a medical savings
plan, in lieu of costly insurance? My right to negotiate with Dr.s on the cost
of treatment, or the right of insurance companies to compete state-to-state,
nationwide?"When you can't afford it and the government has to give
subsidies to hospitals because you were rushed there after you got into a car
accident and accrued an 800,000 to $1.5 million dollar bill then we can talk.
Let's see how far your medical savings plan goes then but I bet you will want
charity or government to pay.
Until doctors, lawyers, health insurance companies & health care companies start
going out of business beacuse nobody can afford care will you get the attention
of any Utah politicians. Change it now or this will happen.
To: Listen to yourselvesSo in your opinion, LTY, one of the
fundamental tenets of Christianity is supporting government in its efforts to
forcibly seize taxpayer funds to provide basic services?Isn't it
possible that a true Christian believes in freedom? Somewhere in the teachings
of the LDS Church I believe there might be a section about agency, I'm not
sure...maybe like we actually get to choose to do right or wrong, without being
forced by Satan to do right...something like that.This life is the
time to prepare to meet God. If you really are a Christian and do your best to
help out your neighbors, you will be blessed for it. Inserting the government
into the equation makes it much more difficult for us to have the choice to help
out charitably. I don't envision God interviewing the 80% of Utahns that believe
healthcare is a right and saying "It's okay that you misunderstood one of the
most fundamental aspects of the Plan of Salvation and ended up taking Satan's
side in this argument. I can see how it was confusing."
Approach it as a right under Christian teachings. Why do we want to deprive
health care for millions of Americans, most through no fault of their own, and
even if some stupidly jeopardize themselves. I think Christian teachings would
have us help any way. Yep, I'll "err" in that direction....
So healthcare is a basic human right? If so, what else are human rights? Food,
shelter, a car? I could easily argue that food and shelter are more basic human
rights than healthcare and yet there are millions of people throughout the world
that not only don't have access to healthcare, they don't have adequate food or
shelter either.If these things are basic human rights, why do so
many in the world wake up each day wondering where their next meal is going to
come from? Unfortunately, we don't live in a utopian, ideal world
where governments have unlimited resources and can just write a check for every
citizen in their country to have whatever they need or want. There are always
financial restraints and concerns that don't make this utopian world possible
(Obama's solution is to just print more money). Last I checked, our country is
already insolvent. When it comes to "basic human rights" and
entitlements, where do you draw the line? Food, shelter, cars? At what point do
people take a measure of responsibilty to provide for themselves and not rely on
the government and others to make their way?
Faith, Hope, & Charity & the greatest of these is Charity...Love one another as
I have loved you...Be our brothers Keeper...Do unto others as you would have
them do unto you.Healthcare is a privilege; not a right. Charity is
the gift that makes it possible. Yes, we can take care of one another, but not
through compulsory government programs. Charity is voluntary. No one stops any
of us from giving to charity, irregardless of tax incentives. We can always
give what we can in our time,talents & means. If we all were
generous, & thought of others first before filling our own temporal wants (not
needs), yes, the world would be a better place. None of us have
unlimited monies; we all have to budget their use. How we spend our
discretionary funds, whether on charity or a house bigger than we need; whether
on building our bank account & investment portfolio or forgiving someone's debt;
whether on someone else's needs (not wants) or on keeping up with the Jones. Charity is the answer: Donate your time, talents & means to your
favorite Healthcare. Mine is LDS - IHC - IMC.
You do not have the right to expect your neighbor to pay for your bad health
choices. We have forgotten how much charities used to do in this country.
Everybody is for helping others but charity is not done through the force of
taxation. Think of how much more we could help the needy if we did not pay so
much in taxes.
What it appears is that this country is really in is described in the story of
the "Camel and the tent." Give an inch and before you know, you are booted out
and have nothing.
Church stands on National Health Insurance?I'm wondering if the LDS Church
if for or against National Health Coverage?Anyone?
Wait, everybody can go to a hospital and receive treatment, Insurance or not.
The problem is that hospital bills have become so outrageous because we the
consumer have let them. We figure, Okay treat me, I don't care what it costs,
the insurance company will pay for it. The health idustry has expenencially
increased its costs over the past twenty years because they know they will get
paid. Even if the insurance company is going to pay for it, can't we stand up
and say "enough is enough"? There is a reason why insurance coverage is so high,
they need to make up for outrageous hospital bills. And it's all because WE
allow it to happen.
The article is right in that most people think healthcare is a right. But the
conservative viewpoint of is that healthcare is a right for them and thier
families only. Everyone else has to pay for it.
yawn.....The left is trying their old tactics of making-up new
'rights' to push their agenda.It isn't enough that their is equal
access for all, there must be in the lefty socialist totalitarian 'utopia' the
same outcome - except, of course, for themselves. 'progressives' are special,
you see, and they don't have to obey the orders they issue for the proles.Freedom=bad; socialism=good, repeat along with barryy, harry and
Kiss America goodbye folks. We have already lost the vision that the Founding
Fathers had created for all generations. Never in the history of this country
has any retail product been made mandatory by the federal government. Now we are
on the verge of being required to carry health insurance whether we need it or
not. Auto insurance is still not required to be purchased if you do not drive.
Soon that will change as well.Make no mistake this is a slippery
slope that once we fall down we will NEVER be able to recover from. This is the
end of 225 years of individual focus and achievement. We are no longer a free
people.Every country that has tried what we are about to do is in
serious trouble. Permanent double digit unemployment. Permanent double digit
taxes. Permanent double digit inflation. No medical innovation, no cutting edge
medical discoveries, and no medical leadership. Why? There is no incentive to
remain the leader. That position will be punished into oblivion by universal
health care.Adieu America. Adieu freedom. Adieu individualism.
Health care is a product. You can tell that it is a product because someone HAS
to produce it. Money gives you access to a product. If you don't have the
money, you don't have access.Just like a house, a car, food, or any
other product or service, they are typically dependent upon someone else to
produce. Saying that you have a RIGHT to their product or productivity with out
fair exchange is theft.
Rights? You people should be happy you have the "right" to breathe the
atmosphere, and not be charged for it!
Sure, call it a basic human right; however, you don't have the right to expect
someone else to pay for yours.STOP GOING TO THE ER FOR ROUTINE
There is a definite difference between Health Care and Insurance. When the media
stops putting the two together, then we can have a legitimate amount of
information going.Health Care - Yes. It should be available to
everyone. No one should be denied basics - Well care exams, vaccines. The type
of care that is for healthy people.Health Insurance - Individuals
need to pay up. This is to help out with possible illnesses that may occur in
the future when health declines and you are not able to meet the guidelines of a
healthy person. I don't want the government to be in charge of my
health care payment plan. They have shown lack of ability to take care of Social
Security and other debt causing agencies. I do, however, want them to regulate
the insurance companies to end the cap on health care due to an extended illness
or an illness that causes a large amount of money to be spent (cancer,
prosthetics, assistance for health - wheelchairs, etc). It's not the person's
fault when they become ill with some types of cancer. It just "happens".
RE:Anonymous @ 7:13 a.m."Where is the liberty in me giving half of
the money I earn to the government..."You DON'T give half of the
money you earn to the government. Let me explain the federal tax system first.
It is a tiered system. Now let's assume you are married and filing jointly. This means that the first $16,700 of your income is taxed at 10%
($1,670), the amount between $16,700 and $67,900 (51,200) is taxed at 15%
($7,680), the amount between $67,900 and $137,050 ($69,150) is taxed at 25%
($17,287.50) and the amount between $137,050 and $208,850 ($71,800) is taxed at
28% ($20,104). This means a person making $208,850 is taxed $46,741.50 or 22% of
their income in federal taxes. State income tax for this individual
would be $14,433.83 or $11,173.48 (choose the lower). This raised their tax
burden to 27%. Depending on where they live a house worth 450,000 would result
in a $5,543 in property taxes raising their tax burden to 30%. I bet you make
This is a defining moment in our history. We can remain a first world country,
or we can continue to let our standard of living decline.Do you want
a truly civilized society, where everyone has access to affordable, reasonable
health care? Or would you rather continue the descent into our
emerging status as a second world country?The basic question is:
which future do you want?
Re-read the numbers (Mike Richards & RedShirt) -- 80% of Conservative Utah
agrees it is a basic human right.You ultra-far-right-wing-nut-cakes
are IN the minority OF the minority; on just about every issue you argue.Get a clue.
if we all want a nationalized health care system then we all need to pay for it.
that means everyone gets taxed. this is what happens in other countries but
people here seen to forget that point. What's Canada's tax rate? 40%? 50%? the
CBO reported last month that 30% of americans after filing thier taxes dont pay
Federal income tax.....So if we want this then everyone needs to pay for it, not
just everyone else.
to Mike H:I'm personally afraid of government health care because
once a program is in place it can never be removed. For example,
under President Carter the Energy and Education Departments were organized.
Since that time billions of dollars have been spent by these government
agencies. And yet, what are two of our greatest concerns? Energy and
education. All that money has done nothing. In fact, if anything, our present
situation is even more precarious than it was prior to the creation of these
departments.So, if nationalized healthcare proves not to be
beneficial will we be able to eliminate it? Not any more likely than our
ridding ourselves of the Energy and Education departments.
I am covered by medical insurance, but at the same time I don't have the
attitude of "I've got mine, who cares about everyone else."Think of
what would happen to this society if every individual was only out for
Over 80% of Utahns think health care is a right. It appears that most
commenters on the Deseret News comment board disagree. Can anyone else hear the
echo in this chamber?
to anonymous @ 3:21I'm not certain where you obtained your stat
about US healthcare being #34. Unless you can provide me a credible reference,
I'm very dubious.
Yes, you are, with a simple mind at the helm. Why do you think you have any
stronger claim to your earned money than a corporate executive has to his/hers?
Do you work harder than any corporate executive?Are you
smarter than any corporate executive?Have you created more jobs than
any corporate executive?Have you already paid more taxes than any
corporate executive?Have you already contributed more to charity
than any corporate executive?
I am sick and tired of those war-mongering politicians taking my tax money to
pay for WARS OF ADVENTURE. This is communism, too!
The rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights have one thing in common; they don't
require anyone else to do something for you. Does health care fit
that description? If not, then it's not a right.
"Absent Santa Claus or the tooth fairy, the only way government can give one
American a dollar in the name of this or that good thing is by taking it from
some other American by force."
Look at the wording of the question. Utahns were asked whether everyone has a
right "to obtain" health care. It's a stupid question. Of course we have that
right.Ask us whether we believe that taxpayers should be forced to
provide health care for everyone else. I guarantee you'll get a different
The U.S. Constitution tells us that it seeks to promote "Life, Liberty, and the
Persuit of Happiness" for all of its citizens. If adequate medical care is not a
constitutional "right",then don't we need to amend the founding document to
eliminate the reference to "Life" as a part of the basic legal and moral
framework for our society?
The question is whether PUBLIC EDUCATION is more of a right than PUBLIC HEALTH
CARE. Neither is a right from a constitutional stance. Living in today's
society, I would rather have public health care and private education. It is
more important for me to choose who educates the hearts and minds of my children
than to choose who writes a generic prescription, performs a routine surgery,
etc...that is already controlled by government and governing medical boards. Why
are people against public health care and then feel just fine about sending
their children to a public school?
to WHThank you for your input.I think you would find
that most of our nation was also not in favor of bailing out the banks or auto
industry. But like healthcare, it happened because our congressional
representatives no longer really represent us or are concerned about what is
best for our nation -- only about what lines their pockets.
Who do we think we're kidding? We boast about having the best health care in the
world, but we rank 34th. That means there are 33 other countries in the world
with superior health care... and at a lower cost. Our medical
system is a total disaster!!It's time we pulled our head out of the
sand and started learning from counties that have it figured out; we certainly
don't.If we were to look beyond our borders we would see that we are
the laughing stock of the world when it comes to health care.
It is easy to say that health care is a right but I think there are a lot of
questions that need to be debated and answered before changes are made to the
current system.If health care is a right, how much care do you have
a right to? Who gets to decide and how do they decide it? Who has the
responsibility to pay for it? If the volume of health care that we have a right
to exceeds the resources available to provide it does the government then have
the obligation to conscript people to be health care providers? If the
government gets to make decisions on rationing health care is it truly a right?
Public Health care may not be a right, but it is the right thing to do!
If health care is a "right" that should provided by the government, then why
shouldn't the government pay to help us exercise all the real rights outlined in
the Constitution?Specifically, I'm talking about the Second
Amendment. Back in the old days, the government would acutally provide muskets
free of charge to the local militias who needed them. The only requirement was
the individual maintain and shoot it and be available for militia duty.Of course things have changed and the government no longer uses muskets. But
if they want to give people the "right" to free health care (which is
impossible, BTW) then they should also give them the right to free guns.Now, I recognize that everyone must sacrifice, so I won't demand a new
top-of-the-line M4 with an ACOG. The federal government has millions of unused
M-14s just sitting around in need of good homes; I could provide for at least
one of them.Heck, I'll sacrifice even more and just accept a Garand
from the CMP (with a few extra cans of M2 ball ammo, please). No need to thank
me; it's my civic duty.
Although these survey results surprise me, a couple of qualifiers are needed to
put things in context: (1) Basic health care (not elective) may be moving in the
public's mind toward right vs privilege status, but that doesn't mean it becomes
a government entitlement--government has demonstrated time and again its
ineffectiveness at delivering quality vs the private market; and (2) the US
already has a "safety net" to handle the Good Samaritan example of a man falling
injured on the sidewalk---the Hill Burton Act, requiring hospitals that accept
federal funds in their construction (virtually all of them) to provide indigent
care. I recognize there are other coverage gaps that need addressing, but
hopefully sanity will prevail in Congress to avoid a government takeover of
to from a belgian:Thank you for your thoughtful input.There are several important differences between the US and most European
countries that make nationalized healthcare here a much more difficult issue:1) As a whole Americans lead a very unhealthy lifestyle compared to
Europeans. We have horrible health habits. The amount of our sugar and fat
intake compared to Europeans, for example, would astound you. And, as I'm sure
you've noticed, we tend to get little or no exercise. An ever increasing number
of us are not just overweight, but grossly obese. Because most Europeans have
healthier lifestyles, it costs less to keep them healthy.2) There
are more of us. None of the present nationalized healthcare systems cover as
many people as it would require in the US.3) Frankly, much of
Europe's healthcare is indirectly funded by the high cost of US healthcare. Our
drug companies are forced to sell things there cheaply and make up the
difference by charging us more. Such is also the case with exported medical
procedures and technologies.This is a short list, but enough for you
to get the picture.
Health care is not a 'Right', due to it being provided by another person! When
one person wants a better life at the expense of another, that is not a 'Right'
... if it was then could the old southern slave-masters have claimed it was a
'Right'?Remember: T.A.N.S.T.A.A.F.L. ... There Ain't No Such Thing
As A Free Lunch!AIMHO!
Health insurance is not. That is why emergency rooms must treat patients
regardless of ability to pay. Remove the government restrictions on health
insurance and costs will lower. Enact tort reform and costs will lower. Do
anything the Democrats are proposing and costs will skyrocket both in terms of
what you pay for insurance and what Uncle Sam takes from you in taxes to pay for
your insurance. Government cannot run Medicare and Medicaid and yet the Dems
want them to delve deeper into providing health insurance. Are they crazy!?!
Wake up my fellow citizens, taxpayers, voters: When the government
gets to choose your healthcare options, you have stratification of healthcare;
they do the rationing. And, the guys at the top always get more than any of the
rest of us because it is their privilege of position, which has been PAID FOR
through the compulsory taxation of you and me. Check out President
Obama’s personal healthcare plan. It is 100% top drawer, unrestrained,
healthcare for him! His alone, because he is The President. His
Healthcare, you and I will never have, except through charity or self-pay. No
insurance plan, no government program is ever going to give the American People
what Obama gets through compulsory means (we pay his total costs) that is
designed to only benefit him. We access his level of healthcare through the
charity of others who have voluntarily given, or if we come with Fort Knox.
When we talk about healthcare, rights, and equality, in this world
it always comes down to money and position. Leave this out of the discussion to
our own peril and loss of freedom and means to pay for ourselves, and give and
care for others
to stumblefall:amen.Is government mandated charity
really qualify as my being charitable? I think not.
To those who say health care should be a right: I try to maintain good health
but I know that anyone can get sick. I don't see why I have to help pay for
those who choose to take drugs or have lifestyles that give them aids or other
diseases. These people cost the rest of us an unbelievable amount of money.
The claim that the current legislation reduces the deficit is a scam. How do
they make this claim? They enact the fines and taxes years before the benefits.
Collect taxes and fines for 10 years and only provide benefits for 6, and low
and behold we cut the deficit! Not to mention the racket of saying they are
cutting Medicare reimbursements to help "pay" for the costs, while at the same
time they are crafting another bill to put all that money back into Medicare.
That's right, maybe if the American people don't watch, we can fool them into
thinking Medicare will be cut, while we don't lower it at all, but simply take
it out in one bill and claim the savings, and put it back in the next bill that
no one will pay attention to. Dishonest at best, devious at worst. Dems
proposals on insurance are as solution based as cap and trade on actually
cutting emissions. It is all about money and power, not solving the problems at
What a patriotic reference to the Founding Fathers. You're living in the past
pal. The founding fathers owned slaves and manifest destiny to steal land from
indigenous tribes was A-okay. Health care is here and now. So we'll slap the
socialist label on health care and problem solved, NOT! I pay all kinds of taxes
for socialist services like roads, schools, prisons, military forces, National
Parks et. al. I guess we should scrap all these programs for the common welfare.
We're paying way to much for health care through bankruptcies and charities
while insurance execs get wealthy. We can do health care for the common good,
we've done it before.
Silly libs, health care is a responsibility.
If healthcare can be denied to any individual, it is not a right. What the
socialists now in control of the US government are doing is forming a system
that will deny end of life care to seniors. Their alternative? Give them a
handful of pain pills and have a nice life. If care can be denied, it is not a
Health care is a right. 'Life' and 'pursuit of happiness' are both dependent on
good health.It really ticks me off when those of you are complaining
about paying for others' health care are the FIRST ones at the government
trough. You send your kids to public schools on public roads. You expect the
fire department and police department to protect your property. You expect
you're garbage to be picked up. You expect the snow to get plowed and the
traffic lights to work. You expect your internet to work (the infrastructure
was developed with my tax dollars). You expect your tithing to be tax
deductible. This could go on and on.Please PLEASE return all the
money that I PAID for your lifestyle.80% of Utahns believe health
care is a right. Most Americans believe health care is a right. Public health
care will happen. Get used to it.
To MetamoracougWhat rank do you believe the United States is at in Health
Care? If u think it's lower than 34, you're kidding yourself. My diversity and
health professor says we are ranked 34th in the world in health care. Also,
google usa rank in health care and you'll find the answer.
Okay, maybe it isn't quite half. Add on stimulus money paid to you that I
didn't get. That is equal to a double tax on me. Add to that gas tax, sales
tax, phone usage tax, property tax on my home and my business building, tax on
my business equipment.My accountant has estimated my taxes for this
year at $20k state and $89k federal. I have already paid $57k in federal with
$31k more estimated. Maybe I make more than you - why should I pay more for the
same services that you get? Can I count on the police or fire department coming
to my house first. Have you gone 1.5 million into debt, sticking your kneck out
to start a new business? Do you lose sleep worrying about paying your business
loan.On the flip side. Do you provide jobs for 10 people with
insurance benefits and 401k. Stick it to the "rich" right. You had
better pray that the "rich" stick around. After you have pulled them down who
will pay for police and roads?
News media, hollywood, schools, government, scientists, churches... the pod
people have taken over. Agree totally with Andrew's comments.
...Instance of where the government has provided anything cheaper than the
private sector?Name one?Don't give an example of
something that is subsidized behind the scenes either.The government
has an absolutely horrific record at doing anything efficiently yet stupid
people go on about how they can provide competition and do it for less.Your IQ's are pretty low if you actually believe that.
If health care is a "right" then having a home should also be considered a
"right". Does that mean the government will next be taking the money from
working Americans to provide a home for every person in the United States?
Sounds like most Utahns now value comfort over freedom and deserve neither.
Planning ahead and paying for healthcare out of pocket is uncomfortable, but
healthcare is already "available" to everyone.It boggles my mind
that so many saw the Bush wiretaps as a sure sign that big brother is going to
run our lives but can't see that more dependency on government leads to true
vulnerability to that kind of tyranny.It doesn’t matter what
the president or his people say in public now to appear centrist. The left is
based on creating as much government dependency as possible though they may see
it as a truly good thing and call it by more palatable names.
"The rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights have one thing in common; they
don't require anyone else to do something for you."First of all the
Bill of Rights which is a made up name to describe the first ten amendments were
not added until after the Constitution was ratified nor were they the only
proposed amendments at the time so they hold the same weight as any other
amendment to the Constitution.Second the Bill of Rights itself
states that just because those rights are enumerated does not mean that others
aren't retained by the people.Third the Bill of Rights does require
someone to do something for you so I suggest that you read it over and over
until you see how they require others to do something. Let me give you a few
examples to get you started.It requires someone to:1)
ask for your consent before quartering soldiers;2) give you a speedy
trial;3) give you an impartial jury;4) inform you of the nature of
your alleged crime;4) give you compulsory process to obtain witnesses;5) ensure you legal counsel; and6) grant you reasonable bail.
to realist @ 8:57Again, please provide a credible source for this
information of US healthcare being 34th. Is it a reference to our healthcare or
to our health habits?
Obama-care is NOT a responsible or desirable solution for health care reform.
The cost is not sustainable and will cause HUGE cuts in Medicare to seniors (500
billion dollars) as well as rationing of services for all plus tax increases for
the middle class. The cost of health care will also INCREASE under Obama-care
contrary to the propaganda coming from the white house. I happen to also believe
that health care should be RIGHT given to ALL US citizens who have a social
security number HOWEVER Obama's proposal is absolutely NOT the answer...that
much is clear.
I had an interesting conversation with my daughter yesterday. She was busily
baking cookies for one of her teachers -- the second time in three days she was
baking cookies for a teacher at school. She needed more brown sugar though.
So, she asked where she might find some. When I questioned her
about more cookies, she responded, "Everyone deserves cookies on their
birthday."I agreed, "Yes they do. But I can't afford to provide
cookies for everyone on their birthday."At what point to we insist
that our government be fiscally responsible?
RE:re: I am a simple person"Why do you think you have any stronger
claim to your earned money than a corporate executive has to his/hers?"Because he earned it from working while they earned it from controlling the
company's slaves"Do you work harder than any corporate
executive?"Yes, they sit on their fat butts all day and act like
they are working hard when in reality their only job is to control the company
slaves who are given enough to buy or rent a house off of the plantation and buy
food instead of eating in the plantation mess hall."Are you smarter
than any corporate executive?"I can guarantee you that he's as
intelligent as any corporate executive unless you are suggesting he is
genetically inferior to this master race of CEO's."Have you created
more jobs than any corporate executive?"Corporate Executives don't
create jobs. That's the consumer. CEO's only manipulate the producers."Have you already contributed more to charity than any corporate
executive?"Charity is another way to make money for a Corporate
Executive. You buy food for the poor and and make corporate executive richer.
I hope that 80% remembers how Orrin Hatch votes...and then the 80% votes
accordingly.Must we ALWAYS return to the scriptures to see how the
Lord behaved? Let's see, something like "feed the hungry, clothe the naked,
liberate the captive". Healing the sick (metaphorically and literally); raising
the dead (again, metaphorically and literally).And here's a bonus
question: who was it that he called "hypocrits". Oh yeah, it was the
ultra-religious. As a (conservative) judge friend of our said,
"Christ was the ultimate Public Defender. When all others were calling out for
'justice', Christ called out for mercy."How does the Primary song
go...? "I'm trying to be like JESUS..."If we talk His talk, we
better walk His walk. Or you risk being a hypocrit - and we know how He feels
All compassionate people would want to help those in need. The question is
whether the government should provide health care through tax dollars. This in
essence means there is no freedom to choose whether you will help someone. The
government just made the choice. This is socialism. If we want to be free to
choose, then we need to keep the government out of health care.
Among the problems of our society is the problem that we don’t all talk
the same language. We use the same words, but they don’t mean the same
things to all people. The word “right” and the word
“rights” are prime examples of that problem.The
definition I like best is simply that rights are the “permission”
given to the members of our society to be, to act, and expect from others
certain privileges for ourselves. And the way we get these rights is by giving
them to others.There is no such thing as “God given
rights”. God gives life, but no further guarantees.There are
no Constitutional rights. Words written on a piece of paper don’t mean a
thing without the consensus of the people in our society here and now.There are no unalienable rights. Nothing that we have cannot be taken from
us. Even life itself.We do have the ability to create and delete
rights at the pleasure of our society. All we have to do to make health care a
right is to get our society to concur.
Do other countries with Universal Healthcare have Insurance companies, agents,
salesmen, brokers and Corporations [an entire industry in and of itself] better known in the business world as "MIDDLE MEN"Standing
between you the "payer patient", and the actual Healthcare Provider?If we [as a country] are paying more for less...Then we have the
better system.If they don't, then they have a better system.
An interesting thought. Recently a standardized test was administered in the
schools to all 8th graders. In the Social Studies portion was this question....
Which of the following is a right guaranteed by the Bill of rights? A) Trial by
a jury of your peers, B) Health care C) Driving down the freeway D) Airline
travel. SO do you know what the answer is? I guarantee that the media coverage,
and overwhelming debate make this question completely biased and unfair for our
students. I am not sure when the test was published but I do know it is not from
this year, because the same test was given last year as well. If us adults
can't get it right, how are the 8th graders supposed to get it right.
If right = entitlement, as in I'm entitled to some of your money, then NO it is
not a right.
Health care is neither a right nor a privilege, it's a good or service provided
by working people, just like anything else.It would be interesting
to see the poll questions. What people mean by a "right" can differ greatly. I
think most people would agree that as many people as possible should have the
health care that they need, but I doubt they think that they should pay for
other people's health care.For a very good argument against health
care as a fundamental, constitutional right, read "Medical Care as a Right: A
Refutation" by Robert M. Sade.
Rights have obligations attached to them. Rights are paid for in cash ... or in
blood. Obligations are individual as well as collective. The "American" way
of life (our freedoms if your will) are paid for by the blood of individuals.
Whether that blood is wasted is topic for another controversial topic. The
point is, we don't all pay equally for constitutional rights. Each of us can do
a self assessment here to verify it. The poor pay with their blood, the rich
with their gold. The question: which is more precious?Health care
is an individual and collective OBLIGATION. The word implies payment made or
promised. Personal habits play a large part. Choices that run contrary to
causal relationships must be paid for. Take cigarette taxes for example. Is
the "big mac" tax any different? Sure ... taxes are an inefficient way to
manage an acknowledged problem and should be used as a last resort. Health care
costs have now infected secondary and tertiary decision making processes that
compound the problem.The solutions are in my opinion simple, but
they are hard. Have we lost the ability to be both responsible and
To "to Archie Bunker | 8:34 a.m." I must really be in your head, making your
mind swirl. I have not commented on this article yet you ATTACK me.Funny how somebody who is a liberal, and accepting of everybody around them
would have to mount an attack on someboy who hasn't said anything.My
question to the Deseret News is, how was the question phrased? Was it like in
the article where it was asked "Is having a healthy society as important to us
as having an educated one?" If so, then the results are highly suspect. Also,
seeing as how there have been 4 previous stories pushing for government health
insurance, I am highly suspect of the questions being asked in the poll.
Rights do not place obligations on others. I have the freedom of speech but
nobody is required to listen. Freedom of the press does not require any to read
what you write. Health care is not a right because it places
obligations upon others to provide it. Further, competent health care did not
even exist until just a couple centuries ago. Does one have a right to
something that does not exist?Why health care? Food is even more
essential to life. Do we have a right to eat at expense of others? D&C 42 :10
"The Idler shall not eat the bread or wear the garments of the laborer."What if a doctor does not want to render services? Should the doctor be
forced to do so? Is this not involuntary servitude? Hello slavery!Do people have a right to health care even if it is going to bankrupt the
nation? Rights are absolute. They cannot be taken away without due process. This point out the indoctrination our children must be receiving in
public school. Ideas this wrong and this wide spread could come from no other
The problem is that even basic health care has become so expensive that most
people can't afford it without insurance and most cannot afford private
insurance (assuming they are insurable). If you show up to a clinic with no
insurance, you'd better be prepared to fork over a minimum of $50 to $100
deposit to even be seen. In an emergency, with high unemployment, how many will
this hurt? When health care was more affordable we could say it is not a
"right" because many could manage somehow to get the money. But these days one
crisis can bankrupt so we have to look beyond the "right" vs "privilege" thought
process. We need to look at it as something that not only needs reform from
multiple angles, but also needs to be shared among all to make it accessible.
This is not unlike other shared cost services such as sewer and clean water.
But, in reform, all elements must be considered, including attorney profits! I
do not want the Federal Government to run health care - heaven forbid! But,
they need to collect the taxes, then allow someone who understands healthcare
(like IHC in Utah) to run it.
Whether we like it or not, we already subsidize the care of those who cannot
afford it. The ER does not turn people away. So when they can't pay, the
hospital writes it off. Since hospitals can't write things off forever without
going bankrupt, the cost to the insured increases to cover the cost of the
uninsured. So we are already paying for everybody anyway.But
consider this: if healthcare became universal in name as well (since it's
already universal in practice) then perhaps we could eliminate the middleman
insurance company from the whole scheme. Wouldn't one less middleman in the
system decrease the cost for all?Also consider: if we could simply
implement tort reform like Europe, we could bring down malpractice insurance and
thereby bring down costs in general. But alas, this will never happen, since
Congress is ruled by lawyers.
Healthcare is not a right. It’s a service provided by someone who chose it
as a means to make a living and fulfill all of the aforementioned
responsibilities for themselves and theirs. If it is a fundamental right, what
would happen if no one chose to practice it voluntarily? Would the government
have to force people to study medicine to become doctors, nurses, orderlies,
EMTs, hospital administrators, etc.?
TO "Does anyone know where the LDS | 7:58 a.m." it depends on who you talk to.
If the church follows what Elder Ezra Taft Benson said in 1979, the answer is
no, the LDS church does not support universal healthcare. Here is the quote
saying so. "Today the party now in power is advocating and has support,
apparently in both major parties, for a comprehensive national health insurance
program - a euphemism for socialized medicine. Our major danger is that we are
currently (and have been for fourty years) transferring responsibility from the
individual, local, and state government to the federal government - precisely
the same course that led to the economic collapse in Great Britain and New York
City. We cannot long persue the present trend without its bringing us to
Watch the documentary I.O.U.S.A. The main point of the movie isn't the need to
reform health care, but it is a close second. Our system is based
on acute, episodic care. Heaven help you if you have a chronic illness and need
coordinated care from our "system". The system needs to be flipped 180 degrees
and do a much better job of preventing illness. Expose people to
the true cost of care and their behavior will change. In case you're wondering
a visit to the ED doesn't cost your $50-$100 deductible. It costs $1500 the
moment you walk through the door and goes up from there.I love
capitalism. Seriously, I'm its biggest fan. A requirement for capitalism is a
healthy, mobile workforce. By any measure we aren't as healthy as other
industrialized countries. We are tied to employer provided health coverage, so
mobility is out the window. No wonder other countries are cleaning our clocks.
Bring on the post-post industrial economy!
The same "Right-to-Life" group,is the very same group who is the most
vocal about "ANTI-Right-to-Life" when it comes to HealthCare.I
call'em as I see'emHYPOCRITES!!!!
Health care is a right in that we shouldn't let people die for lack of the
ability to pay. This is not to absolve people from trying to take care of
themselves through the getting of insurance. We are NOT talking about absolving
people of personal responsbility. This is all about sharing risk.
This poll doesn't pass the smell test. What else will become rights in the
future? Jobs, pizza every Friday night?
to tax burden"Okay, maybe it isn't quite half. Add on stimulus money
paid to you that I didn't get. That is equal to a double tax on me. Add to that
gas tax, sales tax, phone usage tax, property tax on my home and my business
building, tax on my business equipment."Let's add on the fact that I
didn't get a stimulus check and a greater share of my income goes to the sales
tax then yours does.I wonder why that is? Because you are a
parasite!!!"Have you gone 1.5 million into debt, sticking your kneck
out to start a new business? Do you lose sleep worrying about paying your
business loan."I stick my neck out by working for a business that I
don't have a say in and if the business goes out of business I lose my job.
Thats a greater risk"Stick it to the "rich" right. You had better
pray that the "rich" stick around. After you have pulled them down who will pay
for police and roads"Stick it to the poor right. Sales tax them for
food so you can have a business
Healthcare isn't necessarily a right, but ACCESS to healthcare is definitely a
right. Unfortunately, someone needs to ensure that noone is discriminated
against in their pursuit of healthcare due to race, gender, economic status,
We are guaranteed the right to life under the Constitution. When one's health
is endangering their life, the Constitution guarantees care for the individual,
does it not? My Constitutional interpretation says that terminal diseases should
be covered for all.
Why don't they call this "reform" what it is? It is not "health care reform"
and does nothing to bring down the cost of health "care". The legislation
simply sets up "health insurance reform" and does nothing to bring down the cost
of the care. If you reformed "health care" and brought down the cost of the
care, then the insurance companies wouldn't have to charge an arm and a leg to
pay the costs of their insureds.
Toby"All compassionate people would want to help those in need. The
question is whether the government should provide health care through tax
dollars. This in essence means there is no freedom to choose whether you will
help someone. The government just made the choice. This is socialism. If we want
to be free to choose, then we need to keep the government out of health
care."I would just love to help someone pay an $800,000 medical bill
for a 4 day stay in the hospital or I would love to see an LDS Ward or a Church
do that.Assume that the ward has 1,000 members who donate a generous
fast offering of $20.00 a month. I'm sorry but you just wiped out the 240,000 in
fast offerings for that ward.What you fail to understand is that
charity is meant to make money for businesses. It's primary purpose
isn't to help the poor even if people believe they are. Who benefits more from a
person going to the store to buy food for a family who works there. The family
or the business who just made the profit?
Do I have a right to health care? Do I have a right to have food? Do I have a
right to have shelter? All three are basic neccessities. THE REAL question
should be: Is GOVERNMENT responsible for providing our basic neccessities?
Such a thought would have made our Founding Fathers squirm in their grave. Back
then, if a doctor was unavailable, you would die. NO ONE SUED or COMPLAINED.
It was a part of life.
In order for it to be a right you must require doctors to give up their liberty
to perform your health care.If there were no doctor's - no one to
provide health care - would it still be a right? Would we at that point force
people to go into medicine so that the rest of us could have health care as our
"right."It is not a right.
"Health care is neither a right nor a privilege, it's a good or service provided
by working people, just like anything else."Rights are a good or
service provided by the people. There is not a single right that exists which
isn't provided by the people. Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of
press, freedom to assemble, and the freedom to vote are all rights which would
not exist if it weren't for an act of the people."It would be
interesting to see the poll questions. What people mean by a "right" can differ
greatly. I think most people would agree that as many people as possible should
have the health care that they need, but I doubt they think that they should pay
for other people's health care."You are right. I should not have to
use my personal money to buy health care for someone else so someone can make
money while I also pay taxes which benefit those I paid the medical bills to. I
pay taxes and they benefit health providers so why should I pay taxes that
benefit them and then pay a bill so they make profit
While you all argue about rights, children are dying and people are going
bankrupt trying to pay for $200-per-day pills. And Republicans defend this? The
Republican soul is a very dark place.
I am glad that I am not in a ditch bleeding, bruised, and left by the wayside.
It is apparent that a good protion of you all would pass me by or throw a few
coins my way. I guess I would have to wait on someone from Wyoming to come to
Tim D | 9:59 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009"If right = entitlement, as in I'm
entitled to some of your money, then NO it is not a right."Okay.
It's a deal. Don't use my roads, my lights, my water, my garbage
man, my police, my firefighters, my schools, my city cemetery or my buildings
including when you vote. If you so much as enter a building paid for by my taxes
to cast your votes I will send you a bill.Since you are't entitle to
some of my money then feel free to stay in your hell hole house but I'm cutting
all services to it. Try seeing how you like not having water, electricity,
garbage removal or waste removal. When you start to rot in your own urine and
feces your neighbors can call us and we will come by to condemn your house and
you can sleep on the streets but we will send you a bill for that since you have
no right to use our sidewalks or streets as a place to sleep.Now
that we know how you benefit from my taxes you can cease doing so.
The Rock"Rights do not place obligations on others."Yes
they do. Your failure to see it means you are stupid. End of debate because I've
voted"I have the freedom of speech but nobody is required to
listen."You are right about that. I don't have to listen nor do
members of Congress have to listen to the guy who represents you and I urge them
to expel everyone you elect to represent your state.That is their
right and it is time for them to do so. Let's see how you like it when we tell
you we don't want to look at the ugly faces of the morons you vote for. You want
to talk about rights? Let's do it. Let's talk about how I am not obligated to
let your vote kill those I love or allow you to vote even if you have the right
to vote. Congress should just vote to nullify all the Presidential votes of Utah
residents. Let's see how they like it when we expel them from the union and bomb
them if they try to exit in our air space.
So 80% of Utahans do not know what a right is. Should I be surprised by that?
Let's do another survey and ask how many Utahans believe they have a right to
plunder their neighbor's property to secure the means to pay for their
"...Instance of where the government has provided anything cheaper than the
private sector?"Health care. The government manages Medicare with
just a 4% overhead. Overhead in private insurance companies hovers near 20%.
No universal health care system in any nation in the world costs that much to
Access to Basic Health care. What does it mean? Everyone has access to a
physician or an emergency room. They are all out there and a person can go to
the physicians office or the emergency room. Whether they are accepted or not
depends on individual circumstances. Basic health care may mean the ability to
choose whether to smoke, not exercise, use alcohol, eat proper foods, avoid
dangerous pursuits, etc. These choices are all access to basic health care. The
question then becomes is treatment for health problems a right and who is
responsible to pay for the treatment and is it a right to have someone else pay
for the treatment?
There are alot of people who recognize after their experiences with socialized
education that if the government runs our health care system they way it runs
our schools then we're in deep, deep trouble.Which is why many of us
try to avoid using government services if at all possible. My home-schooled son
didn't step foot in a public school for 8 years except for a driver's ed
class.Then when he went to college, he paid his own tuition with
money from his part-time and summer jobs instead of bellying up to the trough
for a Pell grant or a subsidized loan.The pressing question here is,
how much more money are YOU willing to personally give to pay for someone else's
health care?Because if you want a refund for making sure every kid
has at least a mediocre education, then you certainly aren't going to be happy
paying even more to make sure everyone has mediocre health care.
who said:Rights do not place obligations on others.==========So then using your flawed logical,Having a Military is not a right
either.BTW, Are you a Veteran??I am.[another case
of Selective Reasoning syndrome].
to i ate cosmo (burp):What I got is a website that ranked healthcare
systems (as opposed to healthcare -- a very different measure I'm sure you can
see). It said the US healthcare system is 37th.However, I also
found several other sites comparing US healthcare to other industrialized
nations and there were several specific medical areas that US healthcare leads
in.No offense to your professor, I'm certain he/she is very
knowledgeable. However, he/she is also no more credible than my stating that
healthcare in the US is second to none. Again, I ask for a credible reference
stating how HEALTHCARE -- not healthcare systems -- in the US compare to other
countries. I'm inviting you to do your research. Go to the library and check
out the stacks. Not all knowledge can be googled.
to RitaWell thought out and a good reminder of the things that
matter most.However, is government mandated compassion really
compassion? If I'm being forced to give is it really my choice to be
at Valley Forge when he spoke there on the 200th anniversary of the
Constitution--we were there and personally heard him--that government has NO
rights that citizens don't give it and that citizens cannot vote to give
government a right to do things they cannot legally do themselves. He said that
the government putting its hands into citizens' pockets to force them to pay for
benefits for others was "legalized plunder," and as such was immoral.Joseph Smith himself studied Socialism and said it was not Heavenly Father's
plan at all. In fact, forcing people to be good and charitable smacks of the
opposite. A Zion society is a voluntary society, not a society of force.Should we help those in need--YES, of course we should. Should we be
forced to do so--NO!If you think health care in Europe is free,
you've got another think coming. Check out their huge tax rate. There is no
such thing as something coming from the government for free--government only has
the money it takes from taxpayers (or borrow, or print, which leads to
inflation--a hidden tax on us all).
ok | 10:55 p.m. Oct. 21, 2009 If I have a "Right" to carry a gun does that
make you financially sssssliable for that "Right"?------No silly, because unlike a gun people “don't choose" to be sick. And
just like you "choose" to carry a gun big business chooses to make profit off
The first Utah Doc hit on one of the most salient points of the whole
argument--incentive. Does anyone get that incentive is the engine that has
driven the greatest social experiment of the ages (the USA) to success beyond
measure? The noble desires of most who want take care of our sick under a
universal banner are a total pipe dream if the wealth to accomplish it doesn't
exist!Drying up the incentive to excel by putting health care under
govt control will be an unmitigated disaster to the quality of the system.
Debauching the value of the dollar in the process of spending far more than we
have will destroy our ability to pay for whatever is left of our once great
health care system that has truly given the best technology and care to
all--regardless of ability to pay. And all in the name of giving care to
I can't believe that the people who says health care is a right actually
understand what that means. Of course I have a right to seek health care, but I
have no right to demand that anyone give it to me. The survey is flawed.
The Rock | 10:07 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009 Why health care? Food is even more
essential to life. Do we have a right to eat at expense of others? -----------Last time I checked Americans weren't filing bankruptcy due
to food bills. But research shows that..."Medical bills are behind
more than 60 percent of U.S. personal bankruptcies... More than 75 percent of
these bankrupt families had health insurance"
Like others have said, no one is being denied health care. It is a SERVICE you
PAY FOR. What is it worth to people? Supply and demand only works when you have
to pay for the cost of the service. This argument is about as ridiculous as
wanting the best legal counsel for a $15 co-pay. SERIOUSLY.
I think the bigger question is - should health care be viewed under the same
lens as education.should all americans have ACCESS to a free basic
education? and if so, should all americans have ACCESS to a free health
care?they are pretty much the same thing in my mind. I realize
neither is "free". we as a society pay for it through taxes. I have no kids,
but my taxes pay for others kids to go to school. Is that fair? I think so. I
got educated when I was a kid - now it's my turn to send the new kids to
school.the problem is that as a kid I didn't get free health care,
paid for by others. With a change in the health care scenario, kids now (and
adults, etc) will get "free" coverage (if they can't afford it themselves). So
there would be a generation or so where it would appear to be "unfair".but it would all catch up - and next generations can say what I said about
education - "I got free health care - now it's my turn to give health care".it's a timing issue, people.
Anonymous said: "Heath care is definitely a right! Who are we to say who can or
can't have good health? Who are we to tell people if they can live or die? This
argument is so obvious it seems stupid to me."+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Gotcha. So, what about food? We'll die
without food, too, right? Should three meals per day be a "right"? And shelter!
Who are we to permit someone to live on the street? Give the man three squares
and a "reasonable" house to go with his health care! And while you're at it,
laminate his Communist Party card, comrade!This is a fair and logical
expansion of this line of reasoning, and it leads inexorably to one thing:
True Conservative | 10:34 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009 Is GOVERNMENT responsible for
providing our basic neccessities? Such a thought would have made our Founding
Fathers squirm in their grave. Back then, if a doctor was unavailable, you would
die. NO ONE SUED or COMPLAINED. It was a part of life. ---------Back then if you were lucky enough to be born black a white person would own
you as property. It was also a part of life. I wonder if our founding fathers
squirmed in their graves during the equal rights movement.
I think what most Americans are trying to convey is that the healthcare and
insurance industries DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to take as much of our money as they
are currently taking. We need protection. If that needs to come from the
government, so be it!
I question the way this survey was taken and the way the results are being
interpreted. From the comments, I am seeing I don't believe most Utah's would
agree with what this article claims we believe. What is your motive for this
Let me be clear:The only "UNITED STATES CITIZENS" that have earned
and deserve the right to "LIFE......" (5 star government health insurance 'above
and beyond those in the United States congress') are all those civilian and
military men and women (and their families) who have selflessly "VOLUNTEERED" to
serve this country and have ended up in situations that have taken away that
"RIGHT" to "LIFE......" Our selfless Senior citizens having made
incomprehensible sacrifices to make this country what it is also have "EARNED
and DESERVE" the RIGHT to LIFE.....Make no mistake about it, the
last and most vulnerable, indefensible group that "DESERVE" the RIGHT to LIFE
are those yet born..... All the rest....go get a job (after all we
have an administration that is supposed to be executing change and creating
JOBS, when they’re not obsessively attacking Fox news....LOL)It is tragic that this administration exploited these groups of people during
the election just to get elected and now 9 months later all they have to show
for it is bankrupting America and going after Fox news, how much more DESPERATE
are they going to get? I hope to not find out!
Utah the home of the LDS church but at the same time the home of the selfish.
The ones against equality and sharing. The ones that does not reflect Christian
values. Do you think Jesus will be accepting to listen only the ones that have
medical insurance or other papers. I am out. why should I continue living and
paying taxes on a society who does not care about its citizens. You can
rationalize everything you want about policy and political views but your
selfish way of life comes across easily. I better move to any other country.
This one is broken.
There are always those who go into bankruptcy for unexpected catastrophes,
medical being one. But how many people have no savings, not because they
couldn't if they were frugal, but because they don't want to? How many
overextend themselves and then get sick and "can't pay". We see the same thing
with housing. Bankruptcy is way overused because people are simply stupid with
money, not because something is unfair. I would suspect that many bankruptcies
attributed to medical bills are from families who have houses they can't afford,
cars that can't afford, and lifestyles they can't afford, and don't save a dime
but sure run up credit card debt like there's no tomorrow, and then have a
medical bill that they can't pay...
Health Care is a commodity, like food. It is no more a "right" than dinner on
my table that I have to work for to earn. It may be necessary, like food, but
that doesn't make it a "right." This shows problem with our "entitlement"
society and the rising generation, raised on obama type rhetoric, that all of
these things are owed to them. How will we all survive????
I believe everyone has the right to emergency response (first aid, cpr, etc.)
where the person will almost immediately die without it. As for exams, hip
replacements, MRI's, prescriptions, etc. I don't think it's a right, it's a
service one should pay for from their own wallet or their insurance plan. I
also believe that people who make poor health choices (diet, exercise, sexually,
hygiene, etc.) should pay more for their health care.
When I say pay more for their health care, I mean in the form of higher
insurance premiums because they are choosing to put themselves in a higher risk
Re; GET used to it | 11:16 a.m. Oct. 22, 2009"Then when he went to
college, he paid his own tuition with money from his part-time and summer jobs
instead of bellying up to the trough for a Pell grant or a subsidized loan."Who wants to bet that your son went to a public university and benefited
from state appropriations which covers approximately 51% of the actual cost of a
public university education. It sounds like your son benefited from someone's
taxes. Only idiots believe that a public education is paid in full when they pay
their tuition. The only way your son would even come close to paying the full
cost of his education is if he attended a out of state university."The pressing question here is, how much more money are YOU willing to
personally give to pay for someone else's health care?"I don't know.
Maybe as much as I gave to pay for your son's college education. That would be a
good start. Oh, and that electricity you used when you home schooled your son I
will send you operation bills for the part I paid.
RE:Anonymous @ 11:53 a.m."Back then if you were lucky enough to be
born black a white person would own you as property. It was also a part of life.
I wonder if our founding fathers squirmed in their graves during the equal
rights movement."They would be really outraged to see that the civil
rights movements was successful and they would also recognize that those who
followed them can no longer have 100% profit off of the labor of others and must
instead share that profit 99% to 1-5%. This would make them mad so they would
find a way to make sure that the slaves know their place.They would
be rolling in their graves in anger and they would scream about how it is unfair
but then they would tell their buddies that the best way to make a profit in
such a situation is to pay their slaves a salary and make them rent/buy their
own house, food, health care and other necessities so that they can cut down on
operational costs which will allow them to maximize the profit while paying low
wages knowing that charities will provide the necessities.
To Metamoragoug: It is the World Health Oraganization that ranks the
world on their healthcare. The United States is indeed #34. We are behind Costa
Rica! You can find the information on the website. We spend more than any other
naion on earth on healthcare too. The United States is a member of the World
I have lived in New Zealand for the past year. My husband injured his shoulder.
It took 3 months for us to be seen by a specilist and then we never got any
results. We were paying with a private insurance we brought with us. People
wait for as long as 8 months to get their gall bladder removed. A lady had to
have ankle surgery and had to wait for 4 months while walking on crutches. If
you talk with the people here they think they have wonderful health care because
it is FREE. When are we going to wake up and reilize that nothing is free
unless we work for what we want. We cannot wait to get back to good old USA and
see our doctor on the same day we need him. To get a MRI without traveling 100
miles and waiting for months to get it. We have the best health care in the
world. #34 just means I can pay for it and get it now.
absolutely it is a right! (or at least it should be)education has not be
found to be a fundamental right by the supreme court yet we very much take it
for granted, and i doubt that anyone will question that govt. should provide
public schools. hopefully healthcare will also become something that everyone
has access to!it is a shame that the us (as one of the richest, if not the
richest) nations in the world cannot (or refuses to) provide healthcare to its
Obama-care , call it what you want "Smoke and Mirror" or "MonkeyShine" it really
boils down to 1200 pages of lawyer speak double talk that isn't the beautiful,
glamorous queen that Obama is attempting to portray but rather more like putting
lip stick on a chimp. No matter how hard Obama tries to misrepresent this
titanic boat anchor it still ends up looking and smelling like an ugly chimp.
Obama - the master of deception and misinformation is the most dishonest and
corrupt president in US history. I would refer any one to read the book by
Michelle Malkin "Culture of Corruption: Obama and His Team of Tax Cheats,
Crooks, and Cronies".
Many people make the assumption that every choice is clear, and every
consequence is just. We're all for the "do unto others," "as ye have done it
unto the least of these," Good Samaritan, "charity never faileth" rhetoric, but
when it comes down to it, most of us are like Washington Hogwallop in "Oh
Brother, Where Art Thou?" "Sorry, Pete, I know we're kin, but they got this
depression on. I got to do for me and mine."
Of course you will have the freedom to choose whether to help someone. In your
heart, you will have already chosen. And THAT is the choice The
Lord will record. He judges on men's HEARTS as well as their actions. Don't people ever get tired of the "me, me, me" attitude that comes
along with this thing called Capitalism? The great challenge is what do we do
with our resources - do we keep it or decide who is worthy of our help and who
is not? Or do we do like the Savior would do?Again, let's turn to
the scriptures. This time the Widow's Mite. The reason that she was singled
out as an example is because she gave ALL that she had. Christ did not talk
about those who write $2 million checks for buildings at BYU. ("They have their
glory.." sound familiar?)He singled out she who gave ALL THEY HAD
(metaphorically, or literally) to help others...not 10% plus whatever you feel
like putting in for Fast Offerings. 100%. Call it Socialism if you
want. Or call it what it is - the way Christ does it.
I don't really think it is about health care being a right, but more about who
is going to pay for it. Most, including employers, are thinking that they will
get out of paying for health care, if the "government" is paying for it. We
already have a government run program called Medicare. It is going broke, or so
we are told. We are also told that billion are lost every year to this
government run health program.There is no free lunch and if you
think insurance companies are not capable of providing health care, the
government will be much worse. Almost all of the increase in health care comes
from the increased costs of providers, because their clients demand the
Joseph Smith was a Bleeding-Heart Liberal.FYI, Families are
Socialist.Therefore, Heaven is Socialist too.You've
embarassed yourself by confusing the facts.
"Of all the forms of inequality, injustice in health care is the most shocking
and inhumane."-- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.But what did he
know about equality and inhumanity coming from such a privileged background?
Why does anyone give a rip what some UN-type world group says about the US? We
all know how credible the UN is, not to mention the Nobel Peace Prize. I really
think that a lot of George Sorros' funded bloggers are on this forum being paid
to shill for Obamacare. Get a life! There is no free lunch. Get out and get a
real job and quit expecting Roast Duck to Fly Into your Mouth (confucious).
What's next? Housing...Will Barry Obama be able to convince Americans that they
all have a "right" to housing? And then what...
world health organization:This is the site I looked at. Again, it
is ranking healhcare systems, not healthcare. I will be the first to admit our
system of delivery may not be the most efficient. However, what this ranking
does not reveal is the percentage difference between #1 and #37. Is it
significant? or only a minute difference? For example, if the fastest men in
the world ran a 100 meter dash, it is possible that there could be only a
difference of 1/100th of a second in their time. Significant enough to make a
difference in gold or silver medal, but not much to brag about.We
also don't know the criteria used to make this ranking. There is a spread sheet
available that provides minor detail but still no adequate explanation.Again I emphasize this ranking by the WHO is about our SYSTEM of delivering
healthcare, not the actual healthcare provided. And so I still wait
for you to provide me with some shred of evidence that healthcare in the US is
Basic care, like basic education, should be accessible to all. Advanced care (major procedures, catastrophic conditions, etc.), like tuition
to Harvard or Stanford, is available to those who can attain it, but is not an
entitlement to all. I realize it is difficult to admit that the
cure for one's ailment is a heart transplant, and without the ability to pay for
the procedure, they will not be cured.Less than a generation ago it
was understood that unfortunately people die as a result of not having unlimited
resources. Over the past 50 years the "generation of entitlement" has become
confused on this and other issues, insisting that "someone" pay for what
"anyone" needs (or in some cases wants).Preventative care is
essential and exponentially cost effective. Behavioral health services are
critical and could have a major impact on prison and jail populations saving
billions every year. Heart and lung transplants for anyone that needs one, or
any other catastrophic condition, does not fit in the math.
@ World Health Organization.Once again shallow research produces
shallow results. WHO is an organization from where? The United Nations! And in that survey how is the data gathered? Why, self reporting, of
course. We can always trust those wonderful places like Cuba to only report the
truth, right?And those survey questions from the WHO are asking
what? Why, they're asking if the healthcare is delivered FAIRLY (which is
socialized medicine). In that scenario if both a rich person and a poor person
died from a simple pneumonia, that would be FAIR & therefore good healthcare.
Flawed data people! Quit reading your favorite blog & citing that
as research. Keep trying to find the truth, it's out there.
I'v never understood the argument that people don't want to pay taxes towards
other peoples health-care. You're looking at it the wrong way.I live
in the UK. Every month a portion of my income goes toward National Insurance. So
for a kick off, just the name of this scheme should make you see this as being
no different to any other insurance scheme.A portion of this
contribution goes towards my Health Care. Instead of seeing it as paying for
other peoples care, I see it as paying for my future care. For any un-forseen
health scares I may have, and for when I get into old age I am garaunteed
healthcare, anything I need, There will be no loopholes, no pre-existing
ailments, I will get EVERYTHING I ever need to keep me healthy.No, Bachmann
accepted $180,000 in campaign contributions from the insurance industry, and
DeMint cashed in $226,000 from health professionals and another $209,000 from
insurance companies. This is about giving the industry favors and kickbacks, not
some sort of crusade to save America from crushing debt.
America...the land of entitlements. Terrorists won't destroy out "way of life",
the lack of personal accountability and responsibility will. There is no
conceivable way that Health Care is a "right". Holy cow, people...you all need
to be saved from complaining and whining...you all need to be saved from
Why did you change the metaphor "lipstick on a pig" to "lipstick on a chimp"
when discussing Obama? Do I detect a certain racial overtone in your references
to a "smelly, ugly chimp"? I think I do. It's an odd sort of substitution...but
perfectly in keeping with the pictures of Obama-as-Gorilla that were displayed
at the great Teabag March on Washington.
Yes, we need to reform the way health care is available, but forcing insurance
companies out of business so the government can set up 54 new government
agencies to tell you how and when you can get care is not the answer.
Now that I will be paying for your health care, I have a "right" to tell you
that you all are FAT and NEED TO STOP SMOKING. Hope you're not offended....
We also have a right to know what exactly is going into our food!Not
small print hidden under the wrapping of the product!We also have a
right to pay less for healthcare than the 33 nations that are getting better
care.We have the right to get what we pay for!
I wonder what insurance jesus excepted when he healed the sick.
"So when communists and socialists vote to take your hard earned money and
property under the color of law do we have a right to resist violently? "PLEASE STOP IGNORANCE ABOUT UNIVERSAL HAELTHCARE, this is not about
Socialism, WE pay a lot of money for a BAD service, for a service that can tell
you DENIED or NOT AVAILABLE. LOT OF MONEY!!!! for nothing, c'mon people.If
the health insurance company doesnt care and still getting a lot of money from
our pockets WHY not to get this right from the people who work for US!You
like to being robbed and do nothing.This is about doing something better,
OUR allies have it, why not us! is not perfect but IS A LOT BETTER THAN US
Anything can be a 'right' if the majority decides it is.Healthcare
has been made a 'right' in many countries of the world...yet here, we debate
whether or not it can be.Just more diversionary tactics....
I believe in the law of consecration. I don't believe in socialism. Socialism
is a counterfeit system. Anyone here that believes that the government
promoting a socialist agenda is doing it because of Jesus Christ's teachings is
kid is denied for being too fat at 2 yrs old... next, a kid is denied because
too small.... insurance companies just want to cover people that they don't
have to spend money on.. it's a big scam. they provide NO benefit - they are
simply middle-men. if any benefit is provided, it is to make providers charge
less. so do we really need an insurance company to do that? can't we do it
ourselves by all banding together? and if so, what is the best way to do that?
individually or through elected reps? think about it...
If health care is not a right then all of you two faced people out there better
go to your Grandma's and Grandpa's, your own parent's, basically anybody that is
elderly and on social security and TELL THEM TO BUCK UP.WHY ARE THEY
ENTITLED? THOSE MOOCHERS!YEAH ... I DIDN'T THINK SO ... no one wants
to do that, but that's the argument many of you are making.WAKE UP
PEOPLE BECAUSE WE NEED THIS! This doesn't have to be as complicated as the
politicians want you to believe. EXPAND MEDICARE! If it's good enough for the
elderly that we all love and owe so much to, WHY ISN'T IT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ALL OF
US?Health care reform doesn't make us a socialist society anymore
than standing in your garage makes you a car.What do most of you
think the law of consecration is if it's not some form of socialized living. Any
of you religious Utahan's ever consider that?
The article creates a false comparison of health care with education. Education
is not a right; neither is a driver's license, a job, a house, a car, or any of
a host of other "necessities" we crave. When a people begins to regard
privileges bought for them by the blood, sweat and tears of their progenitors as
rights, they have plunged deep into ingratitude and self-centeredness. It's a
shame that so many of our fellow citizens have encased their intellect in leaden
entitlements through which no energy or light can radiate.
who keep comparing this to other things your taxes pay for, such as roads and
schools, you should stop. It's uneducated.Anyone can use the things
their taxes pay for. I can walk on the roads if I choose. I can go to school
if I choose. I can use the police or fire stations if the need arises. Obama's plan will only insure those who currently do not have health
insurance. Therefore, I must qualify to use this service. It makes sense that
if I don't qualify for it, I shouldn't have to pay for it.
How can health care be a right if someone else must provide it? It is
essentially making the producers of health care slaves to the rest of society.
That's pretty presumptuous to assume that. You assume the same people that are
against compulsion would be against the act they are being compelled to do.Many, many people in Utah would help you if you were lying in a ditch
bleeding. Most of these people that would help you would be adamantly against
being forced to help someone. I include myself in that group.
Weak stuff. Social security, Medicare and Medicaid are already horrible
programs. Maybe YOU need to go talk to your Grandma about how well that social
security investment worked out for her. Probably rolling in the dough, right?
Ask her about how well Medicare pays her medical bills, about how
she is paying more and the government less over time. Ask her about why she
needs a second "Medicare Gap" insurance to cover the things Medicare won't. Ask her about how well the Medicaid system covers her opulent life at
the nursing home.Thanks for throwing me the softball. Your examples
make my argument for me.
To some it might seem like the law of consecration is socialism. The difference
is that God is at the center of the law of consecration. Socialism sets itself
up as a replacement for God. Do you think the government has as much concern
for you as God does?
Okay, someone on here posted a ridiculous comment about wait times in NZ because
they said they lived there for a year. I'm a former Utahn living in a suburb of
Auckland and working in our District Health Board's administration. I can tell
you right now that Americans (even if they've lived overseas) generally
exaggerate their "bad" experiences about national health care.There
are no 8 month waits--that is not even a possibility here due to our needing to
comply with standards for the Health & Disability Commissioner. So when people
make up exaggerated comments, it really bothers me because they are skewing the
facts of universal health care. It works here. Yes, it has it's issues but it
does not cost heaps of our tax dollars to do maintain it (we're not spending
billions and trillions on a fake war so our money goes to the people. Why is
that such a difficult thing for Americans to understand? My taxes here are
$189.45 LESS than in Sandy! I have a very similar salary here in NZ and pay less
taxes, just like the majority in NZ. It's just more efficient here.
My parents and grand-parents used Medicare.The governemnt expects
you to burn away your entire life's savings and fall below the poverty line
before the fully kick in.Retire rich - die poor anyway.
["Education is not a right"]i think most people would disagree with
you. i believe every child has a right to an education. the fact that you
don't think so is very scary to me.
["Socialism sets itself up as a replacement for God."]what? where
do you get these weird ideas? i don't even get what you're saying it's so
["The governemnt expects you to burn away your entire life's savings and fall
below the poverty line before the fully kick in. Retire rich - die poor
anyway"]you're old - why do you need all that money after you're
dead? you should have to spend your own money before I pay for your health
care. it's the people that are already poor that I'm worried about. you can
take care of yourself if you have all that money.if you retire rich,
why do you need medicare?
"who keep comparing this to other things your taxes pay for, such as roads and
schools, you should stop. It's uneducated. ... Obama's plan will
only insure those who currently do not have health insurance. Therefore, I must
qualify to use this service. It makes sense that if I don't qualify for it, I
shouldn't have to pay for it."No it's YOU that are uneducated! And
have a serious case of "I'm entitled". I AM NOT QUALIFIED (your
words) TO USE PUBLIC EDUCATION BECAUSE I HAVE NO CHILDREN. I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO
PAY FOR IT (your words).But you are more than happy making me pay
for your kids. It makes more sense that you return all I've paid for your
lifestyle or else shut-up!Bring on public health care.
Why do you assume that it will be a government run health care would be a
failure? Government run health care is working in most industrialized countries.
Why do you think it can be done here? The government does run things
some things well. Whether you want to admit it or not, it's just the truth. I
trust the government to provide better health care than the FOR PROFIT insurance
industry. Besides, we already have the worst case scenario right now. If you
have an illness, like my mother who has type 1 diabetes, you would know it by
now. Her care is rationed here in the USA and she can't go anywhere else with a
pre-existing condition. It's not the doctors that decide what type of care she
gets, its the insurance company and trust me, they have set many limits on what
care the doctors provide.
As for the obese, chain-smoking alcoholic, it's a shame that he got cancer, but
you're already paying for his roads, his library, his post office and his kids'
school. As I've also said before, part of living in a civilized society is
chipping in a little for the benefit of the society as a whole. And affordable
healthcare for everyone (something that insurance companies have FAILED to do)
would benefit society as a whole.I wish Americans would read the
comments of people living in other first world countries, or even from other
Americans living abroad. I've never met a single person in a country with a
national health system who would trade it for what Americans have. The systems
work, Japan, the UK, France, Germany, Canada are NOT communist. All of them pay
less and get more. And there's still a `debate' in America? My fellow Americans,
you look like fools in the eyes of the world. Again.
Americans are worse off than anyone. Even those happy idiots, who keep
proclaiming to the press how they are satisfied with their private healthcare
and don't want anyone messing with it, should go and read the fine print in
their policies. They probably have a lifetime 'cap', which means that even one
major illness could see them and their entire family cut off from insurance.
They probably get their insurance through work. What do they think their fate
will be if, say, at age 50 they find their company has gone 'belly up' and they
are left with no insurance and they have any one of a number of pre-conditions
that makes them uninsurable? They probably have a co-payment clause that will
mean after a relatively small amount of hospital care, they are suddenly
responsible for a large part of the bill.Americans should start
demanding a Single Payer system, and start hard bargaining with Big Pharma to
boot. Yes, the millionaire heart surgeons would scream, and the insurance
companies would turn blue in the face and scream, and Big Pharma would turn blue
and scream bloody murder, but Americans would be much better off.
I'd have to agree with not yelling, my grandma would have nothing if she didn't
have ss or medicare. I think you made their argument.
I wonder at the nit-picking as to what constitutes a right. As a Canadian we
don't have to study the constitution or bill of rights to know that providing
health care for all our citizens is a MORAL RIGHT.
It's true that Canada, UK, etc all get more for less on the surface. But the
facts are that these systems are failing financially. Do a little research and
you'll find that like our Social Security program, these programs simply won't
survive if they stay on the path their on.I live 5 miles from the
Canadian border and I see them coming over the border every day to get our US
health care. So, they pay high taxes to get coverage, then come here and pay
out of pocket to get care. And I'll debate that with anyone because I see it
every day. There ARE waiting lists, there ARE people dying on them - I
personally know them. So anyone who says otherwise is distorting the truth to
sell something.As for the rest of the world thinking of us as fools,
I really don't care, but I doubt it's true. They are all still calling for
foreign aid, so we must not be too poorly thought of!
Right. So Grandma, you just sit there with your bread and water and be grateful
for what you have. You've never had it so good.Just because S.S.
and Medicare is all she has doesn't mean it's the best she could have. Another poor argument.
Health care is a right, but to what extent? Basic, life-saving care? I would
say yes.Someone else footing the bill for every check up? I would
say no.Liberals have got to get it through their heads that there is
no such thing as a free lunch. It's not mean-spirited to demand the free
loaders (and yes, there are millions cheating the system) pick up the tab on
First of all, more than half of the population of the US pays NO income taxes -
and you may well be one of them. So you may have in fact paid NONE of that
guy's son's tuition.And while it may be true that 51% of the cost of
a university's budget is funded by the public, let's not confuse that with
education. The actual expenditure on real learning as opposed to bloated
administrative overhead is pennies on the dollar. My classmates and I at the U
figured out 25 years ago when I was there that with 50 of us in the class times
cost per pupil at the time = over $400,000. We were being taught by a grad
student making $1,000 for the semester.And you want these same
people running our health care system???
No one has a "right" to health care, not when someone else is footing the bill!
It would be nice if we could afford to insure everyone, but that's unlikely
without severe rationing. In this case, rationing means taking something away
from one group in order to give it away free to another group. Pure and simple.
In this case, the losers are seniors who are locked into Medicare. They
basically have no choice, and the Obama administration has assured us they will
be taking health care away from them.
Selfishness is Devilness.No one has a right to help someone less
fortunate than they are with healthcare and pay their bill....You
can buy anything with money...Without money you have no freedom!
And do not ask for charity anymore. It is no longer found in America. Not in
Healthcare in America unless it is a tax write off or lawsuit!
It would be great if every old person were wealthy and had a loving also wealthy
family surrounding them as it appears you assume. Sadly, that's not the case,
many have neither money or family. They only have charity from their churches or
How ironic. My uneducated? Maybe you should think about attending an English
class at your local community college? In response to your post, you
certainly do have the ability to go to school. Community colleges and public
universities are subsidized with your property tax and you can attend one of
those whenever you want.And, FYI, the only public school funds I've
ever used were for K-12. I did not go to a public university, I never received
any grants or scholarships from the government, and I happily repay my education
that I received as a child through the taxes I pay now.
health care is a right....and if you want it, you have the right to pay for it
yourself. Liberal politicians have duped half of this country into believing
that the government should take care of everyone. These lib politicians don't
care about their constituents, they simply want their votes--and creating a
dependent constituency who will always vote for continued freebies from the
government benefits the liberal self-serving politician. Those who believe
health care is a right are weak minded people who believe in this veal-calf;
nanny-state, dependency creating philosophy. It is the antithesis of the
Amreican ideal of freedom and liberty. Wake up sheeple!!! Your government is
slowly destroying your liberty while yoking you to the government trough of
If I have one wish...one itsy bitsy wish...That is that every one of you
that has insurance, and who is against having a national health care system that
covers everyone....My wish is that you become unemployed thru no fault of your
own, that you get sick to the tune of thousands of dollars, you loose your home,
you have not medical coverage....Then and only then maybe you will have
EMPATHY for the less fortunate...when YOU BECOME the less fortunate
yourselves....In the mean time...until my wish comes true...Those kind of
people can't have a real CHRISTIAN bone in their bodies, as Christians have
empathy...How about you think about someone else for once...
making it some sort of right. I also have no problem penalizing people who do
not take care of their bodies and therefore subject their bodies to illnesses as
a result, who knowingly engage in extreme activities and therefore choose to
take more risk with their bodies, etc. I'm not paying for the head injury in a
motorycle accident that could have been prevented if the idiot didn't wear a
helmet. I'm not paying for lung cancer or heart disease caused by someone who
chose to smoke cigarettes. I'm not paying for the medical bill of someone who
chose to drive while under the influence of alcohol or other drugs. A lot of
healthcare costs are preventable. Stupid decisions just aren't something that I
want to have to pay for.
No civilized first world country should turn people away from receiving life
saving care because of money. I would not be here had I not received a
lifesaving pacemaker during college. I was young, dumb and couldn't afford
health insurance so I received a hospital bill for 100k. I was fortunate enough
to be attending college in California and the county paid my bill. Now I am a
successful HR professional who ENSURES people who work with my Company
understand and appreciate their benefits. However, those benefits are
staggeringly expensive. Especially for those people who make less than 30k a
year. The choice becomes feeding a family or having healthcare. Most go for
option a. I've heard the argument that people should just get better jobs with
better insurance. That isn't an option any more and you have to look at those
employees who manufacturing the "things" we use in this prosperous country (yes,
even now). Don't they deserve the same healthcare as everyone else?
funny how Obama is pushing the public health care option as great option for the
unemployed---- all while he destroys the econonmy and creates, ironically, more
unemployment. How conveeeeeeeeeenient! Sounds like a self-fulfilling policy to
me. by the way, on a side note as I digress: how will Obama fund his massive
expansion of the federal government when his soicalist policies dry up the tax
base. Who will pay the taxes to fund the largest expansion of government in
history after he has successfully destroyed the wealth of the US by
redistributing their wealth. You can't multiply wealth by dividing it!!!!!!
obviously your name is correct because you can't be from around here - and you
know nothing about economics and how an economy works.and are you
really ok with 4 % of americans having 90% of the wealth?
If only it were that simple. Over 50% of the people who don't have health
insurance choose not to - they can afford it, they just don't want to pay for
it.Almost ANYONE can afford major medical (high deductible). That
prevents the situation you refer to with losing the home, etc.But
cable TV, video games, booze, cell phones, cigs - all more important
apparently.Not saying there isn't a need out there, but when every
single person I see has a cell phone to the tune of $100 or so per month, it's
just a matter of priorities. Or is a cell phone a right, too?
You never question the bailout of banks and other financial institutions with
billions of dollars of tax payers money. Not only that but not even congress can
ask a question to the Federal Bank how it was done or manage. Now that there is
just a talk about medical care for the American citizens a major issue in all of
our lives some of you question and are against it. What is wrong with you. The
true is that no one can afford on its own medical insurance you either receive
medical insurance through your employer or Medicaid. If you can't get it from
one of the other. you will go without. There is not even 20 real millionaires in
Utah most of us are not so what are you fighting for?
Look, The Republican way is you either have to be rich or a criminal to afford
to get good health care. If the Healthcare doesnt kill you, the healthcare
bills will!We are all paying toward healthcare for criminals with
our taxes anyway and that is ok with the GOP.Was it the Republicans
and Glenn Beck that say we shouldnt make healthcare affordable for the rest of
us even though we pay the healthcare for criminals...Was it Glen
Beck who said Charity is Communism because its a freebie and we cannot have that
in our country?
Thanks,Agreed and well put.Peace
Why not "access to affordable health care is a right"?Why does
everything have to be FREE, FREE, FREE in the liberal mind?Nothing
is free. Someone has to pay for it. And contrary to what was written earlier,
8% do not own 90% of the wealth. More like the top 10% PAY 80% of the taxes.You say people can't afford to pay ANYTHING for health care. Well, then
it's not worth much to them, is it? That's why they go to the ER for anything
and everything. Where is the control in the Democrat plan?Can't
afford health care? No, not when you've got a monthly $200 cell phone bill to
yak away saying nothing to no one. Or paying a $100 per month satellite dish
bill with HBO, etc. Or a new ring tone every week at $5 a pop.Yeah,
I'd give them free health care when they sell the plasma TV and 2007 vehicle and
THEN still can't afford it. CAN'T afford or WON'T afford?
The biggest decision of the economic recovery will be made in the next six
months, and Barack Obama will have almost nothing to do with it.Forget the debate over TARP, and never mind the questions about a second
stimulus. This decision is about when to pull out $1 trillion that’s
propping up the U.S. banking system. And it will be Federal Reserve Chairman Ben
Bernanke and his Fed colleagues who make the call. Once again the transfer
of the nation tax payers money will be going to the Federal Bank mostly to the
wealthy. Now we are we going to do? and we still debating given medical care for
the American people?
To: "To question"Just because someone is against a free-for-all
health care system doesn't mean he/she is for the bank bailout.
Anyone who doesn't think we need a change in our healtcare system has never had
a preexisting condition and tried to get insurance. One diagnosis and you are
esentially branded for life. If you are diagnosed with depression forget for the
rest of your life being able to buy insurance whether you can afford it or not,
you will have no choice. Why on earth do we put our health in the hands of
insurance companies whose only goal is to make money. They don't care what you
need. I find it incredible that people would rather trust a for- profit company.
We have all been brainwashed into thinking that anyway things are done in
America is better.How ignorant we are. My son was in the er in California and
it cost $3500. Sure we can all get emergency health care but you can also be in
debt for a long time plus stressout over your bills. I guess if you've never
been laid off, never had a pre-existing condition, never had an accident and
never spent $25000 a year on premiums alone then yeah lets keep it how it is.
Insurance is not a right.It's a good or service that is purchased.
We live in a society. We share buildings, classrooms, restaurants, bathrooms,
machines,and some many things. We share the environment. When people get sick
all of us can get sick. When people will get ill you have a big risk to get ill
too. You deny medical care to a waitress well that sick waitress will bring you
a meal and you will eat it. Now,swine flue is a national emergency. Should the
government stop given free vaccination too. Your selfish way of thinking
regarding the health of all Americans need to stop. You selfish way of thinking
does not work. Change is coming.
The current healthcare system is you either have to be rich or a criminal to
afford to get good health care. If the Healthcare doesnt kill you,
the healthcare bills will or the insurance company will by delaying coverage!We are all paying toward healthcare for criminals with our taxes and
that is ok with the GOP.Republicans reward those who break the law
with healthcare and say its fine, do not change the system.Meanwhile millions who do obey the law get punished (do not get
healthcare).So everyone go break the law! Its the Republican way!
To AnonimousYou are right"If the Healthcare doesnt kill you, the
healthcare bills will or the insurance company will by delaying coverage"For cheap medicine or medical and dental care, You can go to Mexico or
Canada.How that works?
You were up too late, dude!Break the law to get healthcare?Why not just get a job? I know it's not easy these days, but better than
being in the clink.The Repubs plan is actually not bad - health
savings accounts. You wanna go to the ER everytime you get the sniffles? Fine,
you'll soon deplete your account. Let the docs and pharmacuetical companies
compete for our medical bucks like everyone else and get the lawyers out of the
process with their frivilous lawsuits.You wanna sue me for dumping
hot coffee in your lap? Good luck.Health savings accounts are the
way to go. Let's bring some accountability back into the program.
The Republicans want Health Savings Accounts for no other reason than because
conservative Republican tycoons control Wall Street, and they want to "manage"
other people's money! You know, the way Burnie Madoff managed other people's
money! Madoff is the poster child for Republican healthcare plans!
Hm-m-m, reading the comments posted so far, I discern that the Utah Republican
answer to those who--through whatever circumstances--lack the resouces to pay
for medical care, should just put their child's picture and a short statement of
need on a jar that they leave at the local 7-Eleven.
Rights Schmites! The framers talked of inalienable rights, i.e. rights inherent
or given by a higher power. But we "the people" are also independant moral
agents, and as such we can also collectively choose to grant new "rights". And,
we can also choose how those rights will be implemented. Regarding
Health care, we have long tried a the insurance corporate market based approach
And, for far too many Americans, this profit based approach has not worked well
enough and has not been adequately available or affordable. If some
our good citizens could be a little less concerned about what the evil
"socialistic" goverment might do, and a little more concerned about what many
profit motivated, self interested corporations are actually doing, the county
would be better off. Because thanks to those corporate interests we now have in
power the best politicians that insurance company "money can buy", and I mean
both Democrats and Republicans.It seems to me, that the inherent
"right to life" is a sufficient basis for us to add, based upon our own moral
agency, a right to reasonable access to affordable health care for all citizens,
not just those who can afford it.
Cicero said that by nature we have certain (inalienable)rights, but health care
was not one of them. Our Founding Fathers best summarized our rights to life,
not necessarily a healthy one(we have to earn that ourselves), liberty(which has
always been threatened by big government and the ignorance of the people), and
the pursuit of happiness(which will only be realized by a moral and value-based
people). Entitlements must end.
Yes, I am sure our Founding Fathers of our country meant for us to pay more for
healthcare than 33 other nations with better healthcare.It was also
probably their intentions to see a system where people paid taxes towards a
system that rewards criminals with free healthcare....Maybe we
should all earn free healthcare in the current system by breaking the law.Or maybe we can change the law and get affordable QUALITY healthcare for
all those who are obeying the law. NO PRE EXISTING CONDITIONS
We already have every form of government that is needed == Champus,
Baby-Your-Baby, Medicaid (even for illegals), Medicare, etc. Why do we need to
socialize medicine? It is for governmental control.
People who think that healthcare should stay just the way it is are probably the
people who are doing just fine with the current system. In other words, it's
the attitude of: "I got mine and that's all that matters."
hatch is wrong, health care as self care is a right and people have always
been able to use whatever they could find to care for thier injuries and
ailments.If the right realy wants to make everything a free market
then they need to think a little harder. If we wanted no governemnt intervention
in health care then you would have to make all drugs legal so we can self
medicate as a natural freedom of the market to choose not ot see a Dr at all.
I don't think that is a good idea so as long as the government has
to be involved to some degree it needs to be involved enough to fix it's
It is not the Feds job to deal with Health Ins. So says the US Constitution,
the 10th amendment. This is therefore a state by state issue.How do
we buy auto insurance? Let's "divorce" health insurance from employers and buy
our own. Let the free market compete for our business. Prices will come down,
especially if there is tort reform. We will not have to change insurers when we
change jobs. Pre-existing conditions will be less of a problem if group sizes
are not reduced to individual employer groups. Let there be statewide groups.
Let people buy according to their risk tolerance and needs and insurance company
options.The Feds need to repeal their unconstitutional laws and let
the states govern where the US Constitution does not mandate Fed involvement.
Government is best when its closest to the people.
If we actually had a "free" market there would be no laws restricting medication
use. Then I could freely self medicate.Also, the number of doctors
in the US has been held at low numbers by lobbying efforts of the AMA. They also
oppose letting other healthcare professionals compete directly with Dr services
such as RN's and Midwives.