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Part 2: Health care in Utah: Broken by the system
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Salem | 10:58 p.m. Oct. 18, 2009
These stories are a little frightening for me and my husband whose medical bills
are close to $1500 per month out of pocket after medicare and a supplemental
policy costing $245 per month as well. We don't have it as bad as others
right now but with government health care issues that cause us great concern,
we, like many others are somewhat afraid of the future. I'm saddened that
the individuals in this article are having such a terrible time and wish them
better circumstances in the near future!! Sometimes we have to lean a little
heavier on the Lord for help. Good luck and may God bless them.
I was on the fence. | 11:38 p.m. Oct. 18, 2009
Until hearing Ezra Taft Benson declare the evils of socialism. I am no longer on
the fence.
I know full well the weaknesses and strengths of socialism, communism, and capitalism. I was having a hard time deciding.
I have always known that each system has weaknesses when greed is applied, however I did not realize something. Where greed always exists in man, you must always count it in.
Because I know that man is greedy, I know that greed will still exist in a social system. If this is the case then socialism falls, because socialism relies on no one taking advantage of it so that others may pull the load for those taking advantage.
Because we know that greed will always exist, capitalism is already prepared for this. With capitalism I have the choice to suffer or prosper. There are those who would take this choice away.
There are those who would destroy agency and fight God. I will stand by God's plan, not mans.
I know full well the weaknesses and strengths of socialism, communism, and capitalism. I was having a hard time deciding.
I have always known that each system has weaknesses when greed is applied, however I did not realize something. Where greed always exists in man, you must always count it in.
Because I know that man is greedy, I know that greed will still exist in a social system. If this is the case then socialism falls, because socialism relies on no one taking advantage of it so that others may pull the load for those taking advantage.
Because we know that greed will always exist, capitalism is already prepared for this. With capitalism I have the choice to suffer or prosper. There are those who would take this choice away.
There are those who would destroy agency and fight God. I will stand by God's plan, not mans.
Different Perspective | 12:02 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
For the past several months I have been very vocal about how ridiculous the idea
of government healthcare is. After hearing all the horror stories from Europe
and Canada such systems scared me to death. I was conflicted though because I
for one cannot afford healthcare right now.
Then I moved to Canada temporarily for a job, and found out a lot more about government run health care. Right now I wish I could qualify for their plan ( I cannot because I need permanent residency for my situation ).
Bottom line: if it's an emergency you get help, and if it can wait then you have to wait. In the end you pay very little or nothing at all. I know it may sound terrible, but it helps the most amount of people in the best way.
Then I moved to Canada temporarily for a job, and found out a lot more about government run health care. Right now I wish I could qualify for their plan ( I cannot because I need permanent residency for my situation ).
Bottom line: if it's an emergency you get help, and if it can wait then you have to wait. In the end you pay very little or nothing at all. I know it may sound terrible, but it helps the most amount of people in the best way.
Comments continue below
Concerned with attorney bias | 12:17 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
It is interesting that this article is so tainted with comments or
"facts" supplied by lawyers. It is significant that we see no mention
of how many bankruptcies occur due to legal bills, or that the article blames
the cost of medical expenses on the mean old doctors and hospitals, rather than
the unfortunate accidents these people had that caused the problems.
Also, many people simply do not pay for healthcare when it would have been cheaper, because they were healthy and used the money instead for other things, many of which were discretionary. We need to pay the consequences if we do not take insurance into account.
Finally, the last patient who was an attorney, is on medicare and a supplemental policy, so most of the money she spends each month is not to doctors, but for prescription drugs and this should be mentioned. Medicare and a supplemental plan are a fantastic, although not perfect, insurance.
Also, many people simply do not pay for healthcare when it would have been cheaper, because they were healthy and used the money instead for other things, many of which were discretionary. We need to pay the consequences if we do not take insurance into account.
Finally, the last patient who was an attorney, is on medicare and a supplemental policy, so most of the money she spends each month is not to doctors, but for prescription drugs and this should be mentioned. Medicare and a supplemental plan are a fantastic, although not perfect, insurance.
Timj | 12:25 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
Different perspective:
I also had my eyes opened and my opinion changed after living elsewhere. People in Germany are generally happy with the level of care they receive, emergency care is very quick, costs are much lower, and people don't go bankrupt because they can't pay hospital bills.
Hopefully the system in the US will start to improve soon. Cross your fingers (and call your congressman and senators).
I also had my eyes opened and my opinion changed after living elsewhere. People in Germany are generally happy with the level of care they receive, emergency care is very quick, costs are much lower, and people don't go bankrupt because they can't pay hospital bills.
Hopefully the system in the US will start to improve soon. Cross your fingers (and call your congressman and senators).
For concerned with: | 12:42 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
You and I must have read different stories. I didn't see more than a couple
of quotes from a bankruptcy attorney and searched again for the blaming on
doctors and hospitals. Couldn't find it. Maybe you're bringing your
own bias to how you read it?
eyes opened | 1:57 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
I also had my eyes opened when I lived in Europe. People there had decent
access to government healthcare, but they didn't complain abuot it any less
than we do. Everybody had some kind of horror story about a family member who
died because they couldn't get an operation in time or because it was
rationed by the government. Thay also all live in tiny apartments, because the
taxes are so high that nobody can afford to live any better than that.
Socialized anything will only take us all to the lowest common denominator.
Equality through poverty should be their battle cry.
an additional thought | 2:07 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
The article mentions bankruptcy courts not keeping track of the bills that cause
it, and mentions that credit card debt could be medical. This is true.
My additional thought is this: Long term medical needs create other financial burdens. I have a progressive neurological condition, and can no longer do many of the "money saving" things. I used to garden, cook from scratch, and even mix cheap cleaners. Now I buy pre-prepared food and pay for a housekeeper. It doesn't seem medically related, but it is.
I wish I had the answers; and appreciate the discussion.
My additional thought is this: Long term medical needs create other financial burdens. I have a progressive neurological condition, and can no longer do many of the "money saving" things. I used to garden, cook from scratch, and even mix cheap cleaners. Now I buy pre-prepared food and pay for a housekeeper. It doesn't seem medically related, but it is.
I wish I had the answers; and appreciate the discussion.
Gordon Coleman, Adelaide | 3:06 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
As an Englishman who has lived in England and now in Australia, how glad I have
lived in systems where I can become ill, go to hospital and be treated without
worrying about the bills and whether my illness will cause my family to lose the
family home! What kind of country allows people to be made bankrupt because of
ill health. Perhaps with a few less bombs being dropped on other countries, the
Us could afforded to ensure that no American evers has to worry about whether
they can pay the medical bills.
When my wife became ill a number of years ago she had many tests, a spell in hospital and visits by a district nurse for two weeks for injections and consultations with one of the top oncologists. And an ambulance ride. Total cost: zero! Zilch!
She recovered and we didn't fret about any medical bills. She just spent her time recovering. Why are Americans denied this?
It seems that gun law is more important than health laws for the betterment of the citizens
When my wife became ill a number of years ago she had many tests, a spell in hospital and visits by a district nurse for two weeks for injections and consultations with one of the top oncologists. And an ambulance ride. Total cost: zero! Zilch!
She recovered and we didn't fret about any medical bills. She just spent her time recovering. Why are Americans denied this?
It seems that gun law is more important than health laws for the betterment of the citizens
Insurance not the problem | 3:52 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
The problem with health care in the US is the very high and lucrative for profit
system to generate high CEO and investors profits.
Whether you have insurance or not, the costs are still at lucratively high levels. In those countries that have socialized medicine they have also stopped profiteering by the medical industry. Doctors are at fixed and regulated incomes, hospitals are small and lack the too expensive equipment. These countries on socialized medicine have regulated everything to do with health right down to the costs of drugs. The drug makers in the US also supply other countries with drugs but with costs regulated the american people are paying for lost profit.
As for the bankruptcies, I thought this was common knowledge that medical care can bankrupt anyone using it, even with insurance. To add insult to injury, if a person dies with any assets and any unpaid medical bills, the medical bills are paid first out of any estate. This is Utah law now with or without a will.
To socialize insurance you must also socialize health care providers, otherwise nothing changes. If you socialize health care then there is no need for insurance.
Whether you have insurance or not, the costs are still at lucratively high levels. In those countries that have socialized medicine they have also stopped profiteering by the medical industry. Doctors are at fixed and regulated incomes, hospitals are small and lack the too expensive equipment. These countries on socialized medicine have regulated everything to do with health right down to the costs of drugs. The drug makers in the US also supply other countries with drugs but with costs regulated the american people are paying for lost profit.
As for the bankruptcies, I thought this was common knowledge that medical care can bankrupt anyone using it, even with insurance. To add insult to injury, if a person dies with any assets and any unpaid medical bills, the medical bills are paid first out of any estate. This is Utah law now with or without a will.
To socialize insurance you must also socialize health care providers, otherwise nothing changes. If you socialize health care then there is no need for insurance.
JC | 4:00 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
So, every year over 10,000 lives are destroyed in Utah because of bankruptcy.
And that is just the number of filings. I thought bankruptcy was a solution not
destruction. How dumb am I!
Anonymous | 5:48 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
Just don't pay your hospital bills. IHC no longer pursues collection.
The Government isn't the answer! | 6:07 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
Never, absolutely never, has the government ever been able to do anything
efficiently; nor, has it ever been cheap or cost what they said it would cost.
While I sympathize with the people who are discussed in this article, I
don't trust the government and never will. With them it isn't about
health care, it's about seizing power and limiting rights. House Bill 3200
is repleat with Constitutional violations that smack against our rights and
liberties. Don't be fooled by anything our corrupt politians lay out
there.
Out right lies | 6:39 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
Insurance companies have spent billions of dollars this year telling us about
the evils of a single payer system. Now that option is no longer being
considered, they are attacking the government option. They do not want to face
a competitor who is not skimming 20% of premiums for profits, seven figure
executive salaries and bonuses. They have given millions to our elected
representatives and we are wondering what to do. I for one just want to be able
to purchase the same health plan that covers our elected leaders in Washington.
That is called a government option.
Hmmm | 7:06 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
Some of those stories seem like they could be doing a little more to help
themselves.
Hmmm | 7:17 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
How much of the costs of the medical care was actually going to the lawyers who
help to prevent the frivolous malpractice suits against the doctors, hospitals
and pharmaceuticals? I wonder why these costs aren't a part of the
equation? Maybe we need to tackle tort reform, first, and then see what
happens. Problem is, is that tort reform doesn't buy votes from the
mindless.
Think about it! | 7:45 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
If people in Utah would save 10% of their wages a month instead of donating it
to charity think about how much money they could save for their health care
bills and retirement. How many bankrupcies could be avoided if they practiced
this very simple rule?
TRY THIS: | 8:10 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
Suppose we had insurance coverage for car repairs. My suspicion is, it
wouldn't be long till we couldn't afford to replace a muffler without
it. To my way of thinking, we continue to head in the wrong direction. Progress
is when we can meet the demands of life on our own and not need the
"village" to get by. I wonder what hospitals,doctors, medical schools,
etc. would charge if no one had insurance coverage. My guess- what the market
could bare.... just like plumbers, electricians and auto mechanics. I know two
young couples who were expecting and hadn't any insurance. They got on
assistance because they didn't dare go through child birth without it. I
can't blame them.... BUT is this really progress? Folks have been having
babies since the beginning and now in the 21st century we don't dare
without insurance. Sorry, it doesn't sound like progress to me.
Wouldn't it be nice if we all dropped our insurance and let health care
charge like any other service provider. Who knows- we might see more innovations
in treatments.It'll never happen but I can dream can't I?
RE: Insurance not the problem | 8:32 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
Here are the facts:
Insurance CEO salaries add $0.06 to the cost of your monthly insurance policy.
Insurance company profit margins are 3.3%
The fraud rate for private insurance is 1%. The fraud rate for government systems (medicare and medicaid) is 16%.
Private insurance has an overhead rate of 13%. Some nonprofit insurance companies are at 8.2% Government over head is 26%.
Medicare and Medicaid do not pay the full cost of the treatment provided. A full 19% of the private insurance bill goes to cover the losses in Medicare and Medicaid.
The FDA drives up the cost of new medicine. America causes the problem and America gets to pay for it.
Doctors frequently spend 8 to 12 years in college, medical school and internships before sending out their first bill. They borrow massively to pay for this (just try to go 10 years without a pay check and pay for medical school). Doctors must have high salaries to pay for this.
Socialized medicine will destroy the best health care system ever known.
Insurance CEO salaries add $0.06 to the cost of your monthly insurance policy.
Insurance company profit margins are 3.3%
The fraud rate for private insurance is 1%. The fraud rate for government systems (medicare and medicaid) is 16%.
Private insurance has an overhead rate of 13%. Some nonprofit insurance companies are at 8.2% Government over head is 26%.
Medicare and Medicaid do not pay the full cost of the treatment provided. A full 19% of the private insurance bill goes to cover the losses in Medicare and Medicaid.
The FDA drives up the cost of new medicine. America causes the problem and America gets to pay for it.
Doctors frequently spend 8 to 12 years in college, medical school and internships before sending out their first bill. They borrow massively to pay for this (just try to go 10 years without a pay check and pay for medical school). Doctors must have high salaries to pay for this.
Socialized medicine will destroy the best health care system ever known.
Good health insurance | 8:40 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
My wife was diagnosed with cancer when she was 30. We had good health
insurance. She was treated and the cancer removed. Total cost to us: $10. That
was 8 years ago and she is doing great! If people paid for health insurance,
they would likely not need to file bankruptcy. If they paid for health
insurance AND the insurer is limiting/refusing to pay, the government should
step in (with regulation).
I think the government's job is to regulate, not run health care. The government is terribly inefficient. I worked for 15 years in private industry, and now I am working side-by-side with federal employees, in a federal building and I cannot believe the waste. It's very sad.
I think the government's job is to regulate, not run health care. The government is terribly inefficient. I worked for 15 years in private industry, and now I am working side-by-side with federal employees, in a federal building and I cannot believe the waste. It's very sad.
Bruce | 8:48 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
Utahns are hypocrites. You are the first to criticize government programs, but
statistically are one of the biggest recipients.
Pagan | 8:54 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
'Broken by the system'
A system that is still in place and that people are trying to fight to protect.
Keep track of they're names. Odds are, they're party starts with an 'R.'
A system that is still in place and that people are trying to fight to protect.
Keep track of they're names. Odds are, they're party starts with an 'R.'
TO: "Good Health Insurance" | 9:02 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
If your wife was treated for cancer and your total out of pocket cost was $30,
you don't have "good health insurance": you have the best health
insurance policy I've ever heard of. Most of us WITH insurance have to pay
at least 20% of the cost, and that 20% can be a killer amount.
coments to coments | 9:06 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
where did you get such good health insurance? I thought mine was good because it
pays about half, after it's denying various things, including routine care.
I had cancer too.
I received charity assistance from IHC and my balance has no interest. While a poster suggests that I just not pay - well, to me that would be a personal failure.
Also, would my lack of paying really hurt the fat cats of medical industries? Or would the loss be transferred to regular nurses and staff, or by denying someone else assistance?
I received charity assistance from IHC and my balance has no interest. While a poster suggests that I just not pay - well, to me that would be a personal failure.
Also, would my lack of paying really hurt the fat cats of medical industries? Or would the loss be transferred to regular nurses and staff, or by denying someone else assistance?
Dear RE: Insurance not the... | 9:09 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
Got citations for your "facts"?
Which astroturfing subsidiary of the insurance industry came up with those "facts"?
How come CEOs get increasing millions when their companies do worse? (THAT is a question based on facts!)
Which astroturfing subsidiary of the insurance industry came up with those "facts"?
How come CEOs get increasing millions when their companies do worse? (THAT is a question based on facts!)
Dear "eyes opened" | 9:15 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
People ALWAYS have a story about someone dying because something didn't
happen.
We are ALL going to die!
The question SHOULD BE this: do we preserve the lives that will be self-sustaining, or do we apply millions of dollars to save the elderly or premature, who have no chance of self-sustainment?
Remember Terri Schiavo? How many of you thought it was mean of her husband to cut off feeding a wife whose brain had liquified? Of course, it was worth it for YOU taxpayers to keep her alive, right? How many cases like that, are we paying for?
We are ALL going to die!
The question SHOULD BE this: do we preserve the lives that will be self-sustaining, or do we apply millions of dollars to save the elderly or premature, who have no chance of self-sustainment?
Remember Terri Schiavo? How many of you thought it was mean of her husband to cut off feeding a wife whose brain had liquified? Of course, it was worth it for YOU taxpayers to keep her alive, right? How many cases like that, are we paying for?
reform needed but not Obamacare | 9:15 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
reform in heath care is obviously badly needed in the US but Obamacare is not
the answer. There are many reforms which would fix the current system and also
allow those who happen to like their current healthcare to retain it. OBamacare
would force everyone on the government plan (after their employer drops their
current plan) thus giving them higher premiums and worse coverage while gutting
Medicare for seniors. Not a good plan.
Luke from Oklahoma | 9:16 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
Here are some economic facts:
1. Put large insurers between doctors and patients and prices go up. Demand also goes up because people with so-called insurance don't see the true cost. Services also go down because doctors are not affected by the true supply and demand forces.
2. Now put government between the supply (doctors) and the demand (patients). Now the situation is much, much, worse. If government forces prices down, a large number of the doctors leave. Now supply is limited so rationing has to be implemented (by the government). Seniors suffer.
Bottom line: Prices, and supply and demand forces are good. They tell all society the value of services and the quantity and quality that should be produced. The current so-called health insurance scheme has interferred with supply and demand.
Without it, prices would be much lower and doctors would provide better service, and people would naturally take better care of themselves.
Put Reid-Obama-government socialism in charge and taxes go way up; availability of medical service will go way down.
Its time to get back to Constitutional free markets that protect private property and, incidentally, create tremendous economic efficiencies, innovation and value.
1. Put large insurers between doctors and patients and prices go up. Demand also goes up because people with so-called insurance don't see the true cost. Services also go down because doctors are not affected by the true supply and demand forces.
2. Now put government between the supply (doctors) and the demand (patients). Now the situation is much, much, worse. If government forces prices down, a large number of the doctors leave. Now supply is limited so rationing has to be implemented (by the government). Seniors suffer.
Bottom line: Prices, and supply and demand forces are good. They tell all society the value of services and the quantity and quality that should be produced. The current so-called health insurance scheme has interferred with supply and demand.
Without it, prices would be much lower and doctors would provide better service, and people would naturally take better care of themselves.
Put Reid-Obama-government socialism in charge and taxes go way up; availability of medical service will go way down.
Its time to get back to Constitutional free markets that protect private property and, incidentally, create tremendous economic efficiencies, innovation and value.
Goverment Agencies | 9:26 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
Anyone who thinks federally run healthcare is a good idea has not had much
interaction with the IRS. Or with any other federal agency for that matter.
Limited resources | 9:32 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
I, too, wonder at the decisions of national leaders that expend so much money
abroad when things are falling apart for so many domestically. I know of a
couple who just lost their home, went through bankruptcy, are living in a home
owned by extended family, lost employment, cannot get employment due to severe
knee injuries that cannot be treated because they lack the funds and insurance,
and they are trapped. What does a family do when medical treatment is not an
option, but could make the difference between being employable and virtually
immobile?
Anonymous | 9:34 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
TO: "Good Health Insurance" | 9:02 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
If your wife was treated for cancer and your total out of pocket cost was $30, you don't have "good health insurance": you have the best health insurance policy I've ever heard of. Most of us WITH insurance have to pay at least 20% of the cost, and that 20% can be a killer amount.
With a run-of-the-mill IHC Select Health plan your max out of pocket for one person, using IHC facilities, should be about $3,000 - $6,000 for the family. I have a wife that has been going through cancer treatments for the past two years and I have not paid more 3k for services/hospital stays. Granted, for some people - 3k per year is quite a bit of money.
If your wife was treated for cancer and your total out of pocket cost was $30, you don't have "good health insurance": you have the best health insurance policy I've ever heard of. Most of us WITH insurance have to pay at least 20% of the cost, and that 20% can be a killer amount.
With a run-of-the-mill IHC Select Health plan your max out of pocket for one person, using IHC facilities, should be about $3,000 - $6,000 for the family. I have a wife that has been going through cancer treatments for the past two years and I have not paid more 3k for services/hospital stays. Granted, for some people - 3k per year is quite a bit of money.
wallofvoodoo | 9:47 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
RE: Insurance not the problem, where are you getting your stats? Without context
it makes it hard to rely on them.
Typical of the cirtics of any change (I don't think the change going now is the correct change but think there needs to be a change) say there is plenty to show wrong, but they have no solutions. If the Canadian system is so bad, why are we sending factories there?
I don't buy that CEO salariaes are such a small amount. If it is so, also would assume (since there was no reference) that figure doesn't include Caddilac health benefits, bonuses, retreats, retirement, private jet flights etc... or what we could call perks.
We don't need socialized medicine to destroy our health system, it is already being destroyed by greed. Nobobdy should go broke to be healthy!
Typical of the cirtics of any change (I don't think the change going now is the correct change but think there needs to be a change) say there is plenty to show wrong, but they have no solutions. If the Canadian system is so bad, why are we sending factories there?
I don't buy that CEO salariaes are such a small amount. If it is so, also would assume (since there was no reference) that figure doesn't include Caddilac health benefits, bonuses, retreats, retirement, private jet flights etc... or what we could call perks.
We don't need socialized medicine to destroy our health system, it is already being destroyed by greed. Nobobdy should go broke to be healthy!
Change jars don't pay bills | 9:50 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
My family had the misfortune to be hit by a drunk driver with no insurance. He
later filed bankruptcy. He has had 3 more DUI's.
My auto policy paid out $300,000 in bills. There was much more remaining. I found my health insurance was virtually worthless and claimed the car policy and the other driver were at fault, thereby off the hook for them.
What irrritates me is Intermountain Health Care bill collectors. They would say "Medicaid is our charity care". So my question to IHC (especially Primary Children's Hospital) is this, You guys claim all this charity care, but are those figures inflated because you count the difference between the care you charge and the care Medicaid pays? I don't think a government payer is "Charity care".
Our family still suffers the effects of this accident and we have major health problems for life. Our friends and neighbors put out "change jars", which ammounted to $250. - didn't pay much when you owe $35,000 in life flight bills alone. I get collection calls up to 20 times a day. I worry all the time, the stress of collections!
My auto policy paid out $300,000 in bills. There was much more remaining. I found my health insurance was virtually worthless and claimed the car policy and the other driver were at fault, thereby off the hook for them.
What irrritates me is Intermountain Health Care bill collectors. They would say "Medicaid is our charity care". So my question to IHC (especially Primary Children's Hospital) is this, You guys claim all this charity care, but are those figures inflated because you count the difference between the care you charge and the care Medicaid pays? I don't think a government payer is "Charity care".
Our family still suffers the effects of this accident and we have major health problems for life. Our friends and neighbors put out "change jars", which ammounted to $250. - didn't pay much when you owe $35,000 in life flight bills alone. I get collection calls up to 20 times a day. I worry all the time, the stress of collections!
chainsawman | 10:01 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
I read the artical and don't know the answer but let me tell my story. I
have had 8 sugurys,two rad. treatment series, a one week and a four week stay in
the hospital for MERSA in four years. just the co-pay was enough to get us
behind in our morgage,went into forclosure, almost broke our marriage of 26
years from stress. It took a year and a half to fix the home morgage, a year of
counciling to fix our marriage. I am due for major surgury again, but will put
it off. In the process of putting it off, I will have more damage done from the
injury than if I would get it done now. I live in pain 24/7. but the pain is
small compared to the reprocusions of the medical bills. Great world isn't
it where you have to chose pain over payment. We would be better off if my wife
quit work to take care of me but don't want to burden the tax payers. I am
only 48 and life is gone for me.
To "Different Perspective" | 10:17 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
Like you and "Timj," my husband was very impressed with socialized
medicine when he lived in Taiwan during his mission. You could get just about
anything for $1.50. He got a lot of dental work done there that seemed pretty
good at the time.
Guess what? When we'd been married about six months (he had been back from Taiwan 1 year), reality set in. An American dentist found a huge, terrible cavity that they said must have been let go for 3 years at this point (meaning the Taiwanese dentists completely missed it), plus every filling he'd had done in Taiwan was done so shabbily they all had to come out and be redone - they were already coming out on their own. That's pricey. Thankfully, we happen to have very good, PRIVATE insurance.
Bottom line: if you pay $1.50 for dental work (when you know their instruments cost more than that alone) - you're going to get a $1.50 job. Hope you enjoy that 10 years down the road. Meanwhile, the HRA I get through work along with our private coverage works very well - and it's a free market innovation.
Guess what? When we'd been married about six months (he had been back from Taiwan 1 year), reality set in. An American dentist found a huge, terrible cavity that they said must have been let go for 3 years at this point (meaning the Taiwanese dentists completely missed it), plus every filling he'd had done in Taiwan was done so shabbily they all had to come out and be redone - they were already coming out on their own. That's pricey. Thankfully, we happen to have very good, PRIVATE insurance.
Bottom line: if you pay $1.50 for dental work (when you know their instruments cost more than that alone) - you're going to get a $1.50 job. Hope you enjoy that 10 years down the road. Meanwhile, the HRA I get through work along with our private coverage works very well - and it's a free market innovation.
To "Gordon Coleman, Adelaide" | 10:36 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
First thought on reading your comment: there is no such thing as "zero!
zilch!". The fact is you have been paying for your wife's ambulance
ride - and several others' ambulance rides - all your life. Because it and
everything else your country has socialized gets taken out of your paycheck and
you never see it, you are desensitized to the cost.
Second thought: exactly what bombs have the US dropped that bother you the most? Certainly the ones we dropped that helped end World War II didn't bother you, since we saved your nation's rear end in doing so. You were bankrupt, your capital had been bombed to rubble (by another nation besides the US - gasp!) and your young men were dying just as our own were. Because you had proven yourselves worthy allies and had stuck with us and had been a defiantly moral nation while the rest of Europe decayed around you, we stuck with you as well. We're glad you remember. Now if you please, let us decide by ourselves on the "right" to health care, and whether or not we want to give 50%+ of our income to an inefficient government.
Second thought: exactly what bombs have the US dropped that bother you the most? Certainly the ones we dropped that helped end World War II didn't bother you, since we saved your nation's rear end in doing so. You were bankrupt, your capital had been bombed to rubble (by another nation besides the US - gasp!) and your young men were dying just as our own were. Because you had proven yourselves worthy allies and had stuck with us and had been a defiantly moral nation while the rest of Europe decayed around you, we stuck with you as well. We're glad you remember. Now if you please, let us decide by ourselves on the "right" to health care, and whether or not we want to give 50%+ of our income to an inefficient government.
Lynne Jacob, Calgary | 11:02 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
We Canadians read these comments and just shake our heads in disbelief! With
our health care there are no such things as co-pay, deductibles, previous
condition disqualifiers, payout limits, or the least concern about how we are
going to pay if we get sick.
My husband just had major surgery, and although we had a two week wait, others with less urgent needs were put further down the list. We consider universal health care a moral issue and are just amazed by the debate south of the border.
My husband just had major surgery, and although we had a two week wait, others with less urgent needs were put further down the list. We consider universal health care a moral issue and are just amazed by the debate south of the border.
Pre-Med | 11:04 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
I am certainly okay with the government taking over health-care ...that is as
long as they are going to take over my medical school bills. I can't speak
for every Pre-med, but the large amount that i do know are seriously
reconcidering there career path. Does lno one care what doctors and future
doctors think about the matter? Im not saying this to be greedy but if you want
me to go to school to give you the best care that i can Ive got to be able to
pay off the schooling.
Anonymous | 11:05 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
Hmmm | 7:17 a.m.
"How much of the costs of the medical care was actually going to the lawyers who help to prevent the frivolous malpractice suits against the doctors, hospitals and pharmaceuticals?"
In 2004, a Congressional Budget Office report put the amount at around 2% of our overall spending on health care. It concluded that even "significant reductions" would do little to curb health-care expenses.
Annual jury awards and legal settlements involving doctors amount to "a drop in the bucket" in a country that spends $2.3 trillion annually on health care, according to Harvard University economist Amitabh Chandra. Chandra estimated the cost of jury awards at about $12 per person in the U.S., or about $3.6 billion.
Tort reform is not the panacea that Republicans claim it is.
"How much of the costs of the medical care was actually going to the lawyers who help to prevent the frivolous malpractice suits against the doctors, hospitals and pharmaceuticals?"
In 2004, a Congressional Budget Office report put the amount at around 2% of our overall spending on health care. It concluded that even "significant reductions" would do little to curb health-care expenses.
Annual jury awards and legal settlements involving doctors amount to "a drop in the bucket" in a country that spends $2.3 trillion annually on health care, according to Harvard University economist Amitabh Chandra. Chandra estimated the cost of jury awards at about $12 per person in the U.S., or about $3.6 billion.
Tort reform is not the panacea that Republicans claim it is.
BobP | 11:09 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
The Aussie said this:
"When my wife became ill a number of years ago she had many tests, a spell in hospital and visits by a district nurse for two weeks for injections and consultations with one of the top oncologists. And an ambulance ride. Total cost: zero! Zilch!"
It was not zero. It was paid for in extremely high, if not confiscatory taxes in both Australia and Britain.
"When my wife became ill a number of years ago she had many tests, a spell in hospital and visits by a district nurse for two weeks for injections and consultations with one of the top oncologists. And an ambulance ride. Total cost: zero! Zilch!"
It was not zero. It was paid for in extremely high, if not confiscatory taxes in both Australia and Britain.
@Goverment Agencies | 11:15 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
The government must be out to get you.
We've been taxpayers for 40+ years. We had one slight encounter with the IRS because we put something in the wrong column. We paid the extra $50 that we owed, and it was over.
The Post Office never loses our packages. Not even the 10,000+ we've shipped from our small business.
I think our military (a government agency) does a darned good job. Unfortunately, they must not be doing that well for you.
We love the beauty of our national parks; unfortunately, you must be barred from going to them? Or they show you only the ugly parts?
I love my country, and I don't mind paying my fair share to support it. My country IS its citizens.
I'm sorry your experience is so different.
We've been taxpayers for 40+ years. We had one slight encounter with the IRS because we put something in the wrong column. We paid the extra $50 that we owed, and it was over.
The Post Office never loses our packages. Not even the 10,000+ we've shipped from our small business.
I think our military (a government agency) does a darned good job. Unfortunately, they must not be doing that well for you.
We love the beauty of our national parks; unfortunately, you must be barred from going to them? Or they show you only the ugly parts?
I love my country, and I don't mind paying my fair share to support it. My country IS its citizens.
I'm sorry your experience is so different.
Dear Luke from OK | 11:20 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
Preamble to the Constitution of the United States:
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
GREED | 11:27 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
Too much profiteering going on between the doctors, the hospitals and the
pharmaceutical and other medical industries. Most Americans trust doctors
blindly and so accept the exorbitant bills as "just the way it is,"
though many are unable to pay those bills. The profiteers thereby get away with
it, and the stockholders lick their chops.
But such prices are not nearly as great in other countries where similar quality treatment is available.
But such prices are not nearly as great in other countries where similar quality treatment is available.
Lew Jeppson | 11:53 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
With stories like these why does the Utah establishment oppose health care
reform?
Something for nothing? | 11:59 a.m. Oct. 19, 2009
From what I have read here so far, I suspect that those who praise the
"government option" are looking for something that they don't
have to pay for, that somehow they will get something for nothing. What they/we
will get is something for too much. You want and healthcare and you want
someone else to pay for it, or in other words "the government" to pay
for it. Trouble is, "the government" is us, the US taxpayer and not
some separate entity that magically has money. That money is our taxes. When
lots of people get something for nothing, the burden is on the rest to pay for
it. That means taxes go up. Now put that on a national scale and see how it
turns into confiscatory tax rates, decreased supply and a nightmare to deal
with.
There ain't no such thing as something for nothing.
There ain't no such thing as something for nothing.
There is a Bottom line | 12:14 p.m. Oct. 19, 2009
Quality and Timely Health Care has a cost - regardless if you think it too high
or not. If that cost, including the salraies and "profits" for those
involved, are not met because someone doesn't pay, Medicare doesn't
cover, or in the cases that someone goes backrupt; the cost will be passed along
to the next patient. That is the same with any business.
A retail store that has a theft rate of 12% must pass the loss along to other customers in order to maintain profit margins to stay in business.
Why is it so hard to see that government intervention will not fix the problem, only the type of reform that reduces the "loss" will help: honest totrt reform, medicare paying a fair rate, and eliminating the ability of patients to avoid resonable payment options to cover their medical costs?
A retail store that has a theft rate of 12% must pass the loss along to other customers in order to maintain profit margins to stay in business.
Why is it so hard to see that government intervention will not fix the problem, only the type of reform that reduces the "loss" will help: honest totrt reform, medicare paying a fair rate, and eliminating the ability of patients to avoid resonable payment options to cover their medical costs?
Dan | 12:36 p.m. Oct. 19, 2009
If things don't change it's only a matter of time that only the rich
will be able to afford healthcare. Just llok at what's happening.
Woke up! | 12:43 p.m. Oct. 19, 2009
I have finally woke to the fact that if a person doesn't make a ton of
money and is perfectly healthy in every way then he or she doesn't belong
in the united states. I better leave!
re: Luke from OK | 2:42 p.m. Oct. 19, 2009
I agree with your first point (Put large insurers between doctors and patients
and prices go up.)
Your second point is dumb though–saying that there would be a shortage of doctors and hence rationing under national healthcare is like saying there would be a shortage of postage workers and hence rationing under a national postage system.
There is a third economic fact that you need to consider though:
Economic Fact 3: People often have acute or chronic health problems that are treatable yet unaffordable. This would be a hard economic reality even if we had an optimally efficient healthcare system.
In past days, such people simply lied in bed for a while and then died. If we went back to a pre-insurance free-market system like you propose, such people would again be left to die. Such a system is rightly called market-based healthcare rationing. There are benefits: this approach would take care of the cost of health insurance, but also the impending Social Security crisis.
Your second point is dumb though–saying that there would be a shortage of doctors and hence rationing under national healthcare is like saying there would be a shortage of postage workers and hence rationing under a national postage system.
There is a third economic fact that you need to consider though:
Economic Fact 3: People often have acute or chronic health problems that are treatable yet unaffordable. This would be a hard economic reality even if we had an optimally efficient healthcare system.
In past days, such people simply lied in bed for a while and then died. If we went back to a pre-insurance free-market system like you propose, such people would again be left to die. Such a system is rightly called market-based healthcare rationing. There are benefits: this approach would take care of the cost of health insurance, but also the impending Social Security crisis.
Rich | 3:07 p.m. Oct. 19, 2009
"Tort reform" is reasonable ONLY if health care expenses are also
"reformed". The next time you want to gripe about some severely
injured person winning the malpractice "lottery", keep in mind that
that "huge" wad of money is going to have to handle their health care
for the rest of their life -- because no insurer is going to even consider
having anything to do with them.
As for bankruptcy, a strong message to take from this article is that financial bankruptcy does NOT always (or, apparently, even usually) translate into "moral bankruptcy". That might possibly have been the case in the past, but given the health care situation, it's certainly not true in most cases today.
And does anyone really think that most people who get buried by massive medical bills are at fault for having allowed themselves to get sick or injured??
As for bankruptcy, a strong message to take from this article is that financial bankruptcy does NOT always (or, apparently, even usually) translate into "moral bankruptcy". That might possibly have been the case in the past, but given the health care situation, it's certainly not true in most cases today.
And does anyone really think that most people who get buried by massive medical bills are at fault for having allowed themselves to get sick or injured??
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