Published: Sunday, Oct. 18 2009 12:00 a.m. MDT
Just so long as I get every bit as much right to defend mine. And to sell them
beer while I'm at it. I love freedom.
I read the talk and I thought Elder Oakes definitely landed some of his
punches.We as a Americans enjoy a number of rights enumerated in the
Constitution and Bill of Rights.But what happens in a pluralistic
society when one constitutional right is pitted against another?His
point, as I understood it, is that freedom of religion is losing too many of
those fights.I get that there's a pecking order. But I don't
understand why freedom of religion seems to be moving ever further down that
Of course members of the LDS Church can defend their faith. It would be
ridiculous to suggest otherwise.However, the LDS Church and it's
members need to own their own behavior and accept criticism for their poor
behavior. Descriminating against a group of Americans is horrible behavior and
deserves criticism. It is ridiculous to claim persecution for being criticized
for persecuting others. In America, all men are created equal.
Working to prevent that is un-American.
So why are the persecuted now using religious freedom to discriminate and
You are absolutely entitled to defend your religion and beliefs. But, when the
church enters the political fray, you need to deal with criticism more
effectively than simply playing the persecution card all the time.If
the church can't deal with criticism of its stance on Prop 8, then perhaps they
shouldn't have weighed in to begin with.
Mr Cannon, in this case it's very apparent that Mr Oaks and the Mormon church
feel that they're being denied the religious freedom to discriminate against
homosexuals. Period. A history lesson on Mormon persecution does nothing to
extend the discussion. Just where were you really planning to go with this
Well said, Joe.
The right to believe that marriage is an act of spirituality and faith, is the
right to believe of every christian church and not only a part of the believes
of the LDS Church. To speak up against forces to regulate believes by inforcing
a law for that, is the right and duty of any leader of a church. Living in an
country witch has a long history of religios depression, Germany, I am happy
that under the controll of the US Goverment at the end of WWII Germany West got
the rights of freedom including religion freedom. It would be sad, if the US
would lose this rights just by putting up some so called modern rights. By the
way Germany has put out a law for legal Partnerships to guarantee the legal
rights for persons witch are not ablee to meet the criteria of a legal marrige.
This law regulates the rights of inheritance and support of same sex couples. We
have given legal rights to them and have respeced the religios rights of the
churches. too. By a good exemple of the old USA.
I support the message from Mr. Oaks - he is correct. I do not beleive at all
that the LDS Church is discriminating gays, or anyone else for that matter.
Mormons have a right to vote how they feel, just like anyone else does.
I am sure we are all aware of the strong feelings on both sides of the gay
marriage issue. I would dare say it affects most of our lives directly, or with
someone we know. This discussion has unfortunately turned a little too heated
at times, and accusations tossed a little too freely. The above references
accusing the LDS church as discriminative or exercising "poor behavior" are
simply not true. The LDS church has never discriminated against anyone who is
homosexual. These comments are unfounded. Since when does standing up for
"traditional" marriage warrant "poor behavior?" The Church stepped into this
discussion to defend marriage between a man and a woman. They have never come
out as discriminating against homosexuals. In fact, the opposite is true-we as
a human family should love one another and treat our differences with respect
and kindness. It is interesting how the LDS Church's stance has been reframed
as "discrimination" or in other discussions, "hate" by those who disagree with
their stance. Please help me find a talk given or article written by an LDS
church leader promoting such behavior that is not taken out of context.
If you study Elder oaks discourse - the whole thing - you will understand that
it's more than just a comment about proposition 8. I have been in situations
where I have been ridiculed and threatened because I don't "drink or smoke" like
everyone else. Is that religious freedom? Look deeper into what the
constitution is, and you will find that there is a rising trend to attack people
for their religious beleifs if they don't do like "everyone else."
This has nothing to do with discrimination at all. Same-sex marriage is a moral
issue and has nothing to do with civil rights. Unfortunately, the opposition
deems it otherwise which it is not. We believe that marriage of a man and woman
is ordained of God and nothing that man does will change that.Some
say that the Church will someday allow this but that is probably thinking that
the Church is just like any other Christian religion and will break under
pressure. That just isn't true. The act of homosexuality is a grievious sin in
the sight of God and that has not changed. Regardless of the numerous comments
to the contrary, Jesus Christ would love the sinner but would hate the sin
itself. No unclean thing can enter into the presence of God. The great thing
is that Jesus Christ died for each one of us, giving us the power of repentance
for our sins. Every individual that has walked or will walk on the Earth will
sin except the Son of God, Jesus Christ. His is the perfect atonement.
Prophets of God have stated that the act of homosexuality is a choice.
Those of you who view marriage by homosexuals as a "right." Many people cannot
marry:Siblings cannot marry.A parent cannot marry their
child.First cousins cannot marry in most states.An aunt or uncle
cannot marry their nephew or niece
Defend all you want. Think people are going to stop laughing at your 'religion'?
Mr. Cannon, you forgot to mention that it was a Mormon girls that also ended the
practice of prayers at school before football games and other activities.We often hear that religion is under attack because prayer is not
allowed in school, but it was an LDS girl and a catholic student that brought
the practice to an end.After being denied the right to say the
prayer at their Texas high school football game because they were not of the
prevailing religion, the mormon and catholic kids sued and won all the way to
the supreme court.Now I hear that people from these same religions
are using their religion to deny rights to other individuals.Does
that strike anyone as Ironic?How about commenting on that Mr.
Cannon, that minority religions attacked the religious freedom of the baptists
to paray at their football games?
After watching Joseph Smith: Prophet of the Restoration at Legacy Theatre this
past week, I saw past persecutions of the LDS in a different light than I used
to. While I don't condone what was done to those early members, I now wonder
what they had done which may have contributed to provoking attacks. I repeat, I
DON'T condone the violent actions done to the LDS pioneers. But I no longer
think it occurred in a vacuum. I've now seen firsthand how the LDS push their
morals on others. Choose carefully what you do unto others; indeed it will be
returned to you.
The entire homosexual argument is based on spurious research that has low
validity. There is very little honest DNA evidence to support their claims, and
I've yet to meet a homosexual who has undergone DNA testing. Therefore, all
arguments that spawn from such a broken foundation are questionable at best,
including proclamations of "rights." When people allow themselves to be suckered
by a relativistic argument their vision becomes clouded. The "gay marriage"
argument is not about equality, it is about foisting justification for
maladaptive coping choices. Thus it has been a slippery slope designed to
depathologize that will sweep with it opposition to other maladaptive behaviors.
At this foundational level true liberty, which depends on self-discipline, is
under attack. Oaks was absolutely correct.
I totally agree with Elder Oaks. And members of the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter Day Saints have every right to defend our religion. Back in the 1800's
the government didn't allow the earlier members that right, why do you think the
Mormon Pioneers came to Utah?? So they can have those precious rights without
anyone infringing on them. And now when we defend them here in Utah (a state
which the LDS settled) from those who once again want to take them away..but we
will continue to stand for what we KNOW is right.
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