Deseret News | Mormons are entitled to defend their freedom of religion

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Joseph A. Cannon: Mormons are entitled to defend their freedom of religion

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Bootlegger | 12:12 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Just so long as I get every bit as much right to defend mine. And to sell them beer while I'm at it. I love freedom.

Plurality | 12:21 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

I read the talk and I thought Elder Oakes definitely landed some of his punches.

We as a Americans enjoy a number of rights enumerated in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

But what happens in a pluralistic society when one constitutional right is pitted against another?

His point, as I understood it, is that freedom of religion is losing too many of those fights.

I get that there's a pecking order. But I don't understand why freedom of religion seems to be moving ever further down that order.

Of Course | 12:26 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Of course members of the LDS Church can defend their faith. It would be ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

However, the LDS Church and it's members need to own their own behavior and accept criticism for their poor behavior. Descriminating against a group of Americans is horrible behavior and deserves criticism. It is ridiculous to claim persecution for being criticized for persecuting others.

In America, all men are created equal. Working to prevent that is un-American.

Comments continue below

WELL SAID! | 12:26 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

AMEN !!!!!

jzdigs | 12:28 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

So why are the persecuted now using religious freedom to discriminate and persecute?

Anonymous | 12:36 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

You are absolutely entitled to defend your religion and beliefs. But, when the church enters the political fray, you need to deal with criticism more effectively than simply playing the persecution card all the time.

If the church can't deal with criticism of its stance on Prop 8, then perhaps they shouldn't have weighed in to begin with.

Mike | 12:36 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Mr Cannon, in this case it's very apparent that Mr Oaks and the Mormon church feel that they're being denied the religious freedom to discriminate against homosexuals. Period. A history lesson on Mormon persecution does nothing to extend the discussion. Just where were you really planning to go with this argument?

Barry Nay | 1:34 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Well said, Joe.

Juergen | 1:53 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

The right to believe that marriage is an act of spirituality and faith, is the right to believe of every christian church and not only a part of the believes of the LDS Church. To speak up against forces to regulate believes by inforcing a law for that, is the right and duty of any leader of a church. Living in an country witch has a long history of religios depression, Germany, I am happy that under the controll of the US Goverment at the end of WWII Germany West got the rights of freedom including religion freedom. It would be sad, if the US would lose this rights just by putting up some so called modern rights. By the way Germany has put out a law for legal Partnerships to guarantee the legal rights for persons witch are not ablee to meet the criteria of a legal marrige. This law regulates the rights of inheritance and support of same sex couples. We have given legal rights to them and have respeced the religios rights of the churches. too. By a good exemple of the old USA.

Support | 2:11 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

I support the message from Mr. Oaks - he is correct. I do not beleive at all that the LDS Church is discriminating gays, or anyone else for that matter. Mormons have a right to vote how they feel, just like anyone else does.

Correction | 2:17 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

I am sure we are all aware of the strong feelings on both sides of the gay marriage issue. I would dare say it affects most of our lives directly, or with someone we know. This discussion has unfortunately turned a little too heated at times, and accusations tossed a little too freely. The above references accusing the LDS church as discriminative or exercising "poor behavior" are simply not true. The LDS church has never discriminated against anyone who is homosexual. These comments are unfounded. Since when does standing up for "traditional" marriage warrant "poor behavior?" The Church stepped into this discussion to defend marriage between a man and a woman. They have never come out as discriminating against homosexuals. In fact, the opposite is true-we as a human family should love one another and treat our differences with respect and kindness. It is interesting how the LDS Church's stance has been reframed as "discrimination" or in other discussions, "hate" by those who disagree with their stance. Please help me find a talk given or article written by an LDS church leader promoting such behavior that is not taken out of context.

Study it well | 2:18 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

If you study Elder oaks discourse - the whole thing - you will understand that it's more than just a comment about proposition 8. I have been in situations where I have been ridiculed and threatened because I don't "drink or smoke" like everyone else. Is that religious freedom? Look deeper into what the constitution is, and you will find that there is a rising trend to attack people for their religious beleifs if they don't do like "everyone else."

Bill | 2:19 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

This has nothing to do with discrimination at all. Same-sex marriage is a moral issue and has nothing to do with civil rights. Unfortunately, the opposition deems it otherwise which it is not. We believe that marriage of a man and woman is ordained of God and nothing that man does will change that.

Some say that the Church will someday allow this but that is probably thinking that the Church is just like any other Christian religion and will break under pressure. That just isn't true. The act of homosexuality is a grievious sin in the sight of God and that has not changed. Regardless of the numerous comments to the contrary, Jesus Christ would love the sinner but would hate the sin itself. No unclean thing can enter into the presence of God. The great thing is that Jesus Christ died for each one of us, giving us the power of repentance for our sins. Every individual that has walked or will walk on the Earth will sin except the Son of God, Jesus Christ. His is the perfect atonement. Prophets of God have stated that the act of homosexuality is a choice.

Right to Marry | 2:34 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Those of you who view marriage by homosexuals as a "right." Many people cannot marry:

Siblings cannot marry.
A parent cannot marry their child.
First cousins cannot marry in most states.
An aunt or uncle cannot marry their nephew or niece

Anonymous | 3:16 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Defend all you want. Think people are going to stop laughing at your 'religion'?

Anonymous | 3:25 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

yip

GWB | 4:34 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Mr. Cannon, you forgot to mention that it was a Mormon girls that also ended the practice of prayers at school before football games and other activities.

We often hear that religion is under attack because prayer is not allowed in school, but it was an LDS girl and a catholic student that brought the practice to an end.

After being denied the right to say the prayer at their Texas high school football game because they were not of the prevailing religion, the mormon and catholic kids sued and won all the way to the supreme court.

Now I hear that people from these same religions are using their religion to deny rights to other individuals.

Does that strike anyone as Ironic?

How about commenting on that Mr. Cannon, that minority religions attacked the religious freedom of the baptists to paray at their football games?

SLC visitor | 4:43 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

After watching Joseph Smith: Prophet of the Restoration at Legacy Theatre this past week, I saw past persecutions of the LDS in a different light than I used to. While I don't condone what was done to those early members, I now wonder what they had done which may have contributed to provoking attacks. I repeat, I DON'T condone the violent actions done to the LDS pioneers. But I no longer think it occurred in a vacuum. I've now seen firsthand how the LDS push their morals on others. Choose carefully what you do unto others; indeed it will be returned to you.

Dr of Psychology | 4:52 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

The entire homosexual argument is based on spurious research that has low validity. There is very little honest DNA evidence to support their claims, and I've yet to meet a homosexual who has undergone DNA testing. Therefore, all arguments that spawn from such a broken foundation are questionable at best, including proclamations of "rights." When people allow themselves to be suckered by a relativistic argument their vision becomes clouded. The "gay marriage" argument is not about equality, it is about foisting justification for maladaptive coping choices. Thus it has been a slippery slope designed to depathologize that will sweep with it opposition to other maladaptive behaviors. At this foundational level true liberty, which depends on self-discipline, is under attack. Oaks was absolutely correct.

CP | 5:01 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

I totally agree with Elder Oaks. And members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have every right to defend our religion. Back in the 1800's the government didn't allow the earlier members that right, why do you think the Mormon Pioneers came to Utah?? So they can have those precious rights without anyone infringing on them. And now when we defend them here in Utah (a state which the LDS settled) from those who once again want to take them away..but we will continue to stand for what we KNOW is right.

RI Reader | 5:16 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Comment to "Of Course":

I agree that if we are going to take action against a society seeking to add to their "rights" - whatever that means ... then we (the Mormons) need to realize the society we oppose will fight back!

But the issue of the talk was using violent or illegal tactics to fight back, and how that endangers freedom of religion for all.

I think Elder Oaks was very clearly saying that the illegal "tactics" - destruction of property, slander, etc... are the issue, so he was encouraging members not to be swayed from the defense of their "right to marriage" by this kind of violence.

The talk also pointed out that anyone saying there is a "religious test" (e.g., Mormons can't be Republican candidates because they are not Christians) is equally in violation of the constitution and a danger to religious freedom.

Why isn't anyone jumping on THAT comment? Why has this whole conversation gone to the "gay marriage" issue?

Narrow minds always find narrow arguments. Some of you narrow minds need to get a hobby other than writing to the DN blogs and criticizing the Mormons.

Henilieta | 6:03 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

People seem to forget that with Prop 8 it was not just the Mormon church that was involved, there were other religion, Catholics,Baptist Church and other religions were also part of it, but it seem like the Mormon Church were not affraid to stand up for there religious freedom and the other religions were hiding behind them,and for me as an American we are discriminating the Mormon Church for there religious freedom. If we do our homework about the history of this church we will know that this is one church that is not affraid to DEAL WITH CRITICISM AND THEY WILL GIVE UP THERE LIFE FOR WHAT THEY STAND FOR AND BELIEVE IN THERE HEART THAT IT IS TRUE.

Homosexuality Is Sin | 6:43 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

It is not "discrimination" to speak out against sin. Homosexuality is not a lifestyle but rather disobedience to the natural order of creation and rebellion against God's will. To equate sin to things such as race, gender, nationality, etc. is simply to buy into the subtle lies of the adversary. You might as well begin saying they should not discriminate against fornicators, adulterers, and pedophiles also.

But | 6:44 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Then why are the mormons infringing on my religious beliefs? My God created homosexuals on purpose and has no issue with love and marriage of homosexuals to one another.

Moss in Wash | 6:58 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Great article. This why I love reading the Deseret News. My son and I will continue fighting for freedom in the United States Army.

Geneva | 7:02 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

I don't know what my thoughts on Joe's column are. I never got past the split infinitive in the last paragraph on page 1: "Without meaning to merely dredge up...."

Joe Somebody | 7:10 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Churches were drawn into the political arena when homosexuals successfully politicized their moral issues and sought to bring the state's power to bear in order to force acceptance of their behavior.

The LDS church and every other church that is standing up for the institution of marriage and traditional societal mores did not start this fight. That was the work of homosexual activists and their social engineer enablers.

Todd | 7:16 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Mormons aren't opposing a people, they are fighting against a behavior! They aren't vandalizing the gay and lesbian headquarters or mailing death threats to gay people. They are fighting for families and trying to protect marriage as a religious practice, a practice that should be determined by religious standards not social.

The gay and lesbian movement doesn't want to be married, they want to destroy religion.

Adam | 7:33 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Um...the Church has never and to my knowledge will never persecute the LGBT community. Of course, they may think they are being persecuted because the Church supports marriage as between a man and a woman. But, the whole point is that the Church should not be knocked into submission by the media or the government because of its religious positions. And it is silly that the ones who are calling for free thinking wish to silence the Church on important issues, especially when the Church uses the same democratic and representative process that everyone else uses.

MAC | 7:38 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Involving in politics to defend marriage and morals is the right thing to do.

David | 7:42 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

In Mormons' eyes, voting 'yes' on a proposition is not persecution of individuals, but a defense of a moral tradition and a granted exercise of democracy. If anyone disagrees, then they are stating that the right to exercise democracy can be discriminatory, in which case it's up to the state or federal governments to prevent such exercise. You can't say Mormons are discriminatory of gays because of their vote to define marriage in a traditional way. Marriage is not an indiscriminate right. Critics should respect that exercise of democracy. Mormons only made up 2-3% of the Proposition 8 vote. Where is the criticism for the other 49-50% of California who voted the same way? Where is the state and federal prohibition of such an exercise of democracy because it's somehow discriminatory?

Laurels | 7:43 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Well said, Mr. Cannon.

The talk by Elder Oaks was well thought out and articulated. He succinctly identified the core issues that have caused conflict and the forces that are attacking religious freedom in general.

Anonymous | 7:49 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

You can defend your religion but please quit the persecution whining. Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from criticism.

To jzdigs | 7:52 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

The Mormons of the 19th century never asked the government to recognize polygamy. Huge difference.

to the critics | 7:57 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

When has the LDS Church said that we're fighting the political rights of gays and lesbians? When have we stepped in and said that it should be illegal to practice that lifestyle? As I remember, the only thing the church stepped in on is the definition of marriage. Since when was marriage itself a political issue? The LDS Church has not stepped in to oppose civil rights for all people or to criminalize the practice itself. Yet, those who are for it constantly chime in with harsh and insensitive comments towards those who are religious because of their weaknesses and flaws. Go ahead and ask any member of the LDS Church if they think they are perfect and I guarantee the answer will be, "No." You see, those who practice religion, for the most part, do not think of themselves as better or more holy, but in need "of a physician" just as everyone else. However, some battles are worth fighting and when the 15 men who we feel are called of God to be prophets ask us to defend the definition of marriage we have the right to believe and follow, despite the hatred and criticism received.

Shaun McC | 7:58 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Using false logic is not a justifiable way to win an argument. While the LDS Church and members thereof need to be aware and thoughtful in the ways they enter into the political realm, it is in no way discrimination to uphold public policies that they believe support that which is right. That is in fact their responsibility as people of conscience. Choosing to believe or state that anyone who disagrees with you is discriminating against you is simply a ploy to demonize and marginalize that person instead of entering into civil discussion where enlightenment and solutions might be found.

Those who support Prop.8 generally believe that historically and theologically, marriage is to be between man and woman. They may or may not have bigotry against homosexuals. Most I know do not. Those against think they are being denied something. Civil unions grant the same rights but don't change the meaning of the word marriage. To change that meaning requires a reason and a view by the majority that it is a positive move. That has not happened. Using lies about the opposition is not a morally sound way to win the argument. Find another way.

Entitlement | 8:07 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Just as Mormon are entitled to defend their faith they are entitled to critism. It's a double edged sword.

wow | 8:15 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

I have noticed that critics of the LDS Church are usually so convinced of their moral superiority that they seldom see their own paradigm and just how mush they behave in the ways they claim to abhorr. It is ironic that many feel they have the right to perpetrate because they are victims.
I am homosexual and I am often disappointed at how mypoic and hypocritical those who claim to speak for me behave. I expect to be treated fairly, but I also see the dysfunction in the gay community and the lack of tolerance for other viewpoints (and therefore short change the quest for truth)

Now there will be multiple posts that say I can not really be homosexual because I dont follow the dogma of gay fundamentalism. I have no right to exist. Which is exactly why I fear gay zealots more than I do religous ones.

doc | 8:26 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Elder Oaks was not complaining about criticism (i.e., words) against the church. The persecution he warns about is when LDS people are targeted and lose a job because of their religious beliefs, are threatened with bodily harm and property damage, etc. The church has thrived in spite of 150 years of verbal assault. It's going beyond verbal assault that is problem.

Tom | 8:27 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Mike,Anonymous and jzdig: God's commandments, whether promulgated via the Ten Commandments, in the Bible or in the Book of Mormon are His Gospel. We love everyone but retain the right to speak out in support of the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman. This is a fundamental religious value. If you want to obfuscate the matter, you're attempts will resound as hollow and transparent to those who love the Lord and follow His Prophet and Apostles.

sbc | 8:36 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

1) The Church did not make homesexuallity political. We, and God, have always taught that is not in line with His guidelines. This has been a moral issuse since Gen.1:1 and even before then. You are the ones that made it political so we have to use political ways to defend God's doctrine.
2) A wise man said once said "a society that allows anything soon will lose everything". There has to be a stop somewhere. When it comes to follow God's doctrine, I will fight to keep the laws in line to the last. I don't hate, I fear God more than I fear man. Persecuting me and terrible it will soon get, HIs doctrine will prevail at the end.
3) Have any of you looked at what Elder Oaks said about Gay's? We may be the only Church that preaches, if you remain celibate and keep the commandments, you will be with Him again. Other's say you are dammed. We don't.

Homosexual "rights" | 8:38 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Why do homosexuals get to redefine marriage for everyone? Why does their "right" to redefine marriage trump religious freedom? Lawsuits have been filed and won across the country against religious people who did not want to support homosexual actions - and the religious defendants lost. In spite of their religious rights being in the First Amendment to the Constitution, and homosexual rights being nowhere in that document. We have freedom of association (which includes the right NOT to associate), freedom of religion, freedom of speech, etc. - and these rights are all being trampled on by homosexuals and activist judges. From a photographer who didn't want to do a gay wedding, to a church who didn't want to rent their facility, to infertility doctors, to adoption agencies in Massachusetts and California (google When Gay Rights and Religious Liberties Clash - NPR article). It's not like there aren't plenty of other providers - religious objectors are in the MINORITY. But that's not good enough for homosexuals, we must all march in lockstep and affirm the rightness of their position, or we are religious bigots. Well, morality isn't up for debate in my house.

Indiana | 8:47 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Oh ye of so little faith and knowledge.

It is redundant of me to try to teach you that Prop 8 is not about persecuting anyone. It is about standing up for God, truth and righteousness. Most of the letters above mine reek with self pity by a group of individuals who do NOT desire to keep God's commandments and want everyone else in the world to justify them and say it really doesn't matter. Well, it does matter. We are told that we must defend truth and righteousness. Those to whom I speak do not understand that very vital principle. Prop 8 was not about butting into the political world, but just that, defending God and HIS statutes. It is not me you dislike, it is God and that dislike extends to me when I stand up for God, truth and righteousness.

Way to go Joe Cannon. This is another great letter written by someone willing to take the punches he knew would come by a group who want God to follow them instead of humbling themselves and following God and His Son, Jesus Christ.

I make no apologies.

What would Jesus do? | 8:49 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

While I agree with Mr. Oaks that no voter should ever feel intimidated, I think he is missing the greater point. The LDS leaders asked their members to vote to limit the rights of another group, therefore limiting the religious freedom of others.

My brother is gay and I strongly believe he should be able to get married to his partner. That is my religious belief. No one was asking the LDS church to accept gay marriage during the Prop 8 discussion. How would marriage equality affect the Mormon church in California? Answer: It wouldn't.

Does anyone else see the irony?

Darin | 8:49 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Dear Editor Cannon,

Let's be honest. What you and Oaks are really defending is the "freedom" to discriminate. If this is an attack on "religious freedom" (as you call it), I can't say I sympathize.

Other side of the coin | 8:55 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

The constitution also allows freedom FROM religion, but I don't see Mr. Oaks encouraging the LDS church to stop forcing their beliefs on me.

JJD | 9:04 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

Wow, a bunch of ignoramuses here. The LDS Church has every right to declare their beliefs on political agendas. We have to live in this world and therefore it's only reasonable that we take part in what happens.

The LDS Church is NOT discriminating against homosexuals. Are you kidding me?! The Church has stated time and again that they are fully accepting of homosexuals, though they do not want them to be practicing ones. What the LDS Church is discriminating against is the behavior. It's a judgment against that which they believe to be a sin. Everyone has to judge in the same way, according to their beliefs. And that's their God-given right to do so.

The Church does not subject homosexuals to any form of hostility of ill-treatment. Their stance was made against the proponents of those who would change the definition of marriage. But everyone who bashes the Church for this IS persecuting it.

We ain't whining. Elder Oaks simply stated that religion is being pushed aside for increasingly popular worldly agendas. We live in a godless, amoral country though so it's not surprise.

What? | 9:10 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

The gay and lesbian supporters who claim that the LDS church was seeking to limit civil liberties , with their support of prop 8 never read the churches official statement about the proposition. The LDS church was seeking to defend marriage. Read the official statement. Just because I think that being a doctor is my right - and a school won't give me a diploma because I don't want to enroll - is not a violation of my rights. Marriage is religious institution - Doctors are a medical institution.

California | 9:11 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

As a Californian, I was very dismayed to see that the media gave all the attention to the homosexuals and none to those of us that want to protect the family. They showed all the demonstrations and hatred towards the Mormons. But I think it back-fired: people saw that the LDS church didn't demonstrate poor behavior or poor sportsmanship and if the vote were to happen again today, Prop 8 would win by an even larger margin. We have voted TWICE on this measure and the losers will not give up. Again, the will of the people has a hard time getting recognized in our state. THAT is what it is all about. So those of you whining about Elder Oaks' talk need to back off.

Yes, but ... | 9:11 a.m. Oct. 18, 2009

... we have the right to defend what's just and reasonable, despite what people in authority try to pass off as such. Sometimes political entities try to pass themselves off something other, but their words and actions speak louder than words.

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