Deseret News | Utah bankruptcies rocket 62%

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Utah bankruptcies rocket 62%

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The Truth | 6:49 p.m. Oct. 12, 2009

We all know why there are so many bankruptcy filings in Utah.

Bill Baumgardner Sr. | 7:50 p.m. Oct. 12, 2009

I do not know what we all know, but I know it is because members of the Church & non members alike are trying to live like the Jones' on what they earn & it just keeps going on & on. A memeber will build a home on a street for 3/4 $ million & another member will build one across the street for $1 million. Then the first member will be jealous & upset. So they go to a better neighborhood & build one for $1.25 million & it goes on & on. "IF" these "SO CALLED" members would listen to the counsel of their leaders, this would have stopped a long time ago. Do I feel sorry for these 1/2 wits? NO WAY! Thank you for posting this TRUTH.

victor | 8:01 p.m. Oct. 12, 2009

We do? As for "the truth" is that some cryptic expression that I'm suppose to fathom? Take your encrypted message to Facebook but not here, please.

Comments continue below

the real truth | 8:34 p.m. Oct. 12, 2009

The sad truth is that some bankruptcies come from job losses or medical bills that can't be paid. Some are irresponsible and live beyond their means, but not all do. My husband is self employed and is owed tens of thousands of dollars. Some customers have filed bankruptcy, meaning we won't get paid. Some can't pay because they lost their job and need to feed their kids. This bad economy trickles down and hurts everyone, even the innocent. If we don't get paid, we can't pay our bills either. It's not always a matter of keeping up with the Joneses. When we bought our home a few years ago, we truly could afford the mortgage. It's a comfortable home, but not nearly as big or nice as many homes in my ward. That's okay. I've always been content with what I've been given. Now it is a struggle because the money isn't always coming in like it should. My husband is a college graduate with a good job and we're hurting financially too, from circumstances that aren't our fault.

People People Peopl | 9:13 p.m. Oct. 12, 2009

Not your fault? You mean the fact that your husband is self-employed and chose to let his customers pay when they wanted and to have "tens of thousands" in account receivable? Not your fault? You mean that you bought a house during great economic times that you could afford at the time, but didnt look into the future to see the cyclical nature of the economy? Not your fault? You mean your husband is a college graduate and STILL hasn't learned anything about the real world.

Partly mortgage industrys fault | 9:14 p.m. Oct. 12, 2009

no guidelines. They felt everyone should own a home when it is really a privilege to own a home. Not everyone is responisble enough to own a home. Most people who got into trouble bought way to much home and others were smart but has the misfortune of losing a job.

The Reason | 9:43 p.m. Oct. 12, 2009

It is because of the companies allowing people to get into so much debt and the people choosing to have it 'now' and pay it later. That is why it is happening. Look at the credit companies now! They will be stricter on who they lend to. They should have been stricter a long time ago instead of taking advantage of consumer stupidity. They keep lending because a majority of the consumer dead beats will continue to make payments and live on very little food, clothing and other necessities because they 'wanted it all now'. The greedy financial institutions were not looking at stability but how much they can make today because they will get a bail-out tomorrow. Plus I DO NOT believe it is about 'keeping up with the JONES'! Everyone gets these things to make themselves feel good and because it 'was' soooooo easy to get credit.

Not your fault???? | 9:51 p.m. Oct. 12, 2009

You certainly cannot control IF your customer is going to pay you. Plus YOU do not know the reason her husband has that much receivables? Hmmm could it possibly be another company STIFFING them because they also had other companies decide not to pay them too??? Just wait until YOU are in dire straits. Then people can say 'Not your fault??? Didn't you plan on LOSING your job??? or Why are you not prepared for a global economic meltdown??'. I bet you would say, 'I am totally prepared for everything that could happen to anyone at anytime, anywhere.'

Doug Short | 12:41 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

As a bankruptcy attorney, I can tell you there is a little truth in each of the positions. The top reasons are medical expenses and job loss. It often does not matter how much you are paying on a home if you've lost your job for an extended period.

One of the real problems not mentioned are the credit card interest rates that were unilaterally raised by the credit card companies time and time again until there is no way out but bankruptcy. This problem far exceeds those who are in a home that's too expensive for them.

Anonymous | 4:23 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

Looks like Zion and the promised land isnt so promising anymore.Chosen people??? Chosen for bankruptcies????

No economy. | 5:09 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

America and Utah has no economy. We don't even have the prospect of growth as government would have us believe.

It was inevitable that america crumbled to the state it is in. It was foreseeable when all our industry began outsourcing american jobs and manufacturing to cheap labor nations.

Now all that is left are trickle down jobs at lower wages with no real industry. Education is not an industry, health care industry is only as good as the people that can pay for it. Our economy is imported goods and no one with money to spend, not even the likely hood of a better income. In fact, incomes are further declining and inflation is rampant and raising taxes even higher to support a failing government and all its welfare systems.

At some point all tax funds will disappear with the jobs and who will be left to tax? Who will pay for education or medical care, the phantom economy?

Our economic priority is to block foreign goods and provide for ourselves. Otherwise, there is no hope. This level of increases of bankruptcies are a strong indicator of our economy still in trouble.

Sister Smith | 5:12 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

I have a hard time feeling sorry for folks who got into financial problems. Most of them are just "trying to keep up with the Jones`s." They have never learned thrift, or the value of a hard day`s work. From early in our marriage, Brother Smith and I made it a point to never buy anything on credit. If we couldn`t afford to pay cash, then we just did without. More people should follow the example of Brother/Sister Smith, and quit going into debt for foolish things. I think most so called "saints" don`t realize that the love of money is a great sin in His eyes.

@Peoplex3 | 6:04 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

Your comment is uncalled for and should be stricken. You have no clue how the gentleman ran his business, and whether or not he chose to let clients' payments slip, or to extend their credit!

Your comments were mean, nasty, and beyond the pale in imagining what other people can portend. Many small business owners pay their staff and employees first, taking all the risks themselves.

You don't know, and I can only imagine how vile and self-indulgent you are to write such. I guess you are counting on Dominos not laying you off soon!

Darrel | 6:18 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

While I do believe in accountability for choices, aren't most Americans a paycheck or two away from bankruptcy anyway? What would happen if your work stopped paying you, or missed a month? Two months? A medical emergency requiring extensive time in the hospital for the bread winner?
I am sure grateful for the job I have.

The Real Truth | 6:48 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

I'll tell you why people declare bankrupcy in Utah--and it's not because Uthans want to live "like the Joneses," although I recognize that happens. It's because
1. Utah pays below average wages
2. Utah has an above average cost of living
3. Utahns have humongous families
4. Utahns give 10% of their wages to charity

Taken together, these four factors lead to bankrupcy.

Brett Coulter | 7:14 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

Irresponsibility in family finances may contribute to some of these hardships. But what attitude should we take towards those who are struggling? Should we blame them for their misfortunes saying, "This man has brought this misery upon himself"? Or might we assume that they are learning some rather hard lessons and be one that is willing to help them back up again? Blaming is easy to do, but it takes a better person to help someone even when they've made mistakes.

Really??? | 7:39 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

Wow! The number of judgemental, holier than thou people here is truly amazing!

Joe G | 8:15 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

Blah Blah Blah, Will the real hate mongures come out? Oh! I see the liberial haters all ready have! Amazing how they love diversity and freedoms for everyone accept thoose they disagree with! Oh thet just can not let their anger go!!

utahboni | 8:16 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

Wow. Just when I think I've seen the bottom of the pit of how sanctimonious and mean Americans have become, they manage to surprise me and sink even lower. What happened to "There, but for the grace of God, go I?"

To Doug Short | 8:20 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

You don't really believe that do you? People have to file bankruptcy for two reasons: 1) Lack of Preparation; and 2) Foolish financial mistakes.

Any "good" bankruptcy attorney will tell you those are the reasons people file for bankruptcy.

Doug Short | 8:21 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

As a relatively inexperienced bankruptcy attorney who was just laid off from my previous employer, bankruptcy filings can be very expensive.

CuriousUt | 8:33 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

Iam not a religious person but I will ask the question do religions still hold the requirement of tithing 10% or more during difficult financial times for many members?

@ Sister Smith | 8:52 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

Pride is also a great sin in His eyes.

Anonymous | 9:17 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

I feel for the families affected by this. As a parent all I care about is providing a safe, healthy environment for my children. It must be difficult to do so when struggling with financail problems. I wish them the best.

RE: Sister Smith | 9:23 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

Thanks for those words of wisdom. But what about those who have been frugal, but who haven't had work for 9-12 months and have no other choice? I know people with college degrees who have been turned down for jobs mowing lawns and digging ditches because the employer was worried that person was "too qualified" and would jump and run at the first chance at a better job. Please tell me your solution for that family.

Mr. Potter | 9:35 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

One of our big problems is in real estate. For many years people buy and resell houses for a good profit. Buying a house has become very expensive. Now you can't help but to have a large debt for a home. Are real estate agents to blame? It's years of rising home prices that's contributed to this mess. This rise in home prices has trickled into the economy and raised the price of most everything. Can someone show me a low priced home? Do low price homes even exist? It's a needed debt. Call it greed or whatever, but we all must dig our way out.

Stuart G. Crump | 9:44 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

A penny saved is a penny earned.

Mario McCash | 9:54 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

Yes, LDS beleive that tithing should be paid especially during difficult times. The more difficult/sacrifice involved in paying tithing, the better it is, because you are proving your faithfulness to the Lord, displaying courage, integrity and obedience in the face of opposition. It's a "Job" kind of thing (i.e. "Job" in the Old Testament). The view is, the more sacrifice there is in paying tithing, the greater the blessings from the Lord. So you pay tithing no matter what, you pay it first and foremost, always, and tithing is 10% of the gross, never of the net. If you chose the net, you are not showing your courage, faithfulness and willingness to sacrifice for the Lord. Paying on the net is frowned upon. "The Real Truth" says that Utah has no many bankruptcies in part because they pay tithing (the rest being low wages, higher cost of living and large families). As tithing and large families are tenets of the LDS, is it half the fault of the Church that people declare bankruptcy? No. LDS are promised blessings for tithing obeidence. So why do so many bankrupt as tithe payers? Commandments don't operate in a vacuum...

Anonymous | 10:07 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

Re: "To Doug Short | 8:20 a.m.", you know nothing at all. Doug Short was right. Inadequate health insurance and job loss are the top contributors. Often problems are unforeseen. There is a thin line between being well off and being homeless. Get a heart.

BC | 10:09 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

10% titihing Answer: To the person who asked above, The parable of the Widows Mite best describes the circumstances in which church members are expected to pay tithing. Here you have a wealthy man who gives a lot of money. Then you have a widow who has almost nothing to her name and gives the one mite (dollar) that she does have. Christ says the widow is more blessed because the wealthy man gave from his abundance, but the widow gave from the little she had. Paying tithing is not a sacrifice but rather a blessing. It is ironic that giving money away in this form brings more than it takes away. I have often been unexpectedly blessed financially and I know it is because of this principle.

Beetdigger | 10:16 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

@Mr. Potter,

It's not "needed debt." Most Americans don't realize that renting isn't a sin. Renting allows flexibility that a purchased house doesn't allow. If I lose my job and need to move in with relatives, I only lose my deposit. I don't have to pay 6% to a realtor and wait for 5 months until someone comes and buys my house.

RLB | 10:29 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

So sad to read these comments. Whether it's a person's fault or not, the old adage "don't judge a person until you've walked a mile in his shoes" still applies. Let's hope & pray these folks recover and get back on their feet.

re: sister smith 9:23 | 11:28 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

There is no law that says you have to inform your employeer of a college degree.
You include it if it will help you get the job.
If you feel it would impeed getting employed then you simply do not include it on your application.
The key is to stay in good enough shape that you can do a manuel labor job short term if it is needed.

To Doug Short | 11:55 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

Doug Short | 12:41 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009
"The top reasons are medical expenses and job loss. It often does not matter how much you are paying on a home if you've lost your job for an extended period."

So the majority of the 62% of bankruptcies is attributed to medical expenses and job loss? Were they also debt free in terms of credit cards and living within their means as well?

Re: @ Sister Smith | 12:08 p.m. Oct. 13, 2009

She didn't exhibit pride...pride is what people have when they don't want to follow God. She's just testify...TESTIFY Sister!

College Grad | 12:21 p.m. Oct. 13, 2009

After being told over and over again for a month that I was over qualified with my BA in Business Management I started applying to jobs with out the degree on my resume and ended up with a job within a week of doing that. And I love what I am doing now.

Payment structure??? | 12:22 p.m. Oct. 13, 2009

Tithing should not be on a payment structure. It is intended for people to give to those in need. When? Where? How much? Why? Is up to you...

To Mario McCash | 12:56 p.m. Oct. 13, 2009

You are stating false doctrine about LDS tithing.

The definitive statement on the doctrine of tithing is the first presidency letter in 1970 and what the scriptures actually state in their text.

“The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. NO ONE (emphasis added) is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his OWN (emphasis added) decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.” (First Presidency letter, 19 Mar. 1970)

Jason L. | 1:30 p.m. Oct. 13, 2009

My observation is the overwhelming need to look well off to the outside world (keep up with the jones's) is more prevalent in this state than others. The pressure is even higher among working siblings of large families. I see it all the time. Take a moment, and think about your closest friends and families...

lynn | 1:40 p.m. Oct. 13, 2009

scheeze, I'm appalled LDS seem to be a main factor in this problem. I always had a feeling Catholic,Baptise, 7th day, JW's were more finacially savey.

Get a Clue | 1:45 p.m. Oct. 13, 2009

Listen to Mr. Short he knows. Numerous people in our fair State oppose health care reform and inability to pay for catastrophic medical costs is the number ONE reason for bankruptcies, UNO CINCO. Either people don't have health insurance or they have loopholes in existing coverage. So bankruptcy is one of the ways society ends up paying for healthcare costs and not the insurance companies, they make profits. Number two is losing employment. It's simple and easy to blame personal choice but sad enough, it's wrong.

Cowboy Joe | 2:06 p.m. Oct. 13, 2009

Most people are a pay check away from bankruptcy. If you think you are immuned from it your are prideful and are in for a real surprise when your world comes crashing down.
Abraham Lincoln file for bankruptcy twice and became president. Many great people file for bankruptcy and come out better for it.
You can learn whats important in life

Any of you people judging, How can you pull a beam out of my eye when you can't see with the Mote in your eye.
judge not

My thought | 2:06 p.m. Oct. 13, 2009

I think what we lost with the modern credit market was the benefit of a co-signer. That second signature guarantees the note for the creditor; however, it played a much bigger role. It brought together a young inexperienced individual with a more knowledgeable individual with experience managing debt.

My father co-signed my first mortgage for me (a $45,000 "handyman" special). Bringing him into the process provided a different perspective. "What is the interest rate if we change this to a 15 year mortgage...."

I can't imagine approaching my dad with the papers for an extravagant home. "I know that you have been working your entire life for your home. I want to buy a bigger one with no money down, will you co-sign that for me."

Many people have been hurt with the current economic circumstances. I can't imagine being a single parent trying to make due. I extend my regrets to all who have lost.

The market will improve. I hope we all use this time to "reset" along with it. Perhaps be more cautious of debt in the future, save a few more dimes, or gain a little more education.

Anonymous | 2:23 p.m. Oct. 13, 2009

Walt Disney filed bankruptcy. Abe Lincoln had business failures. Not exactly irresponsible deadbeats. When people lose their jobs, they often turn to credit cards to pay for basic expenses like food. They earnestly hope they'll soon find a job and be able to pay their debts. Sadly, that doesn't always happen. Not all credit card debt is for luxuries.

Charles | 2:35 p.m. Oct. 13, 2009

@lynn: on what basis do you make your ignorant and arrogant statement?

@College Grad: nice job! where did you get employed? I know of few people similar to you and would like to refer them.

Re: To Mario McCash | 2:38 p.m. Oct. 13, 2009

I think he was just being a zealout or trying to rile people up. It is on gross income though. Don't confuse that with revenue, but gross income. Ask any in high leadership and they will tell you that. paying on net is cheating since it's not what you increased by.

Anonymous | 2:58 p.m. Oct. 13, 2009

Some bankruptcies were caused by people taking out seconds on their homes and investing in fraudulent companies like Franklin Squires. Being a pyramid scheme, it collapsed and left the investors holding the bag. There were many such schemes going on in Utah.

Not Asleep | 3:13 p.m. Oct. 13, 2009

Utahboni: Amen!

Mean, sactimonious, preachy, judgmental-- thank goodness for a few voices of calm, reason, and compassion. It is embarassing, as a Saint, when some whom I assume are LDS fit into the descriptors mentioned above. James has it right: Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good aconversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

In Reply to: | 3:54 p.m. Oct. 13, 2009

"Re: To Mario McCash | 2:38 p.m. Oct. 13, 2009
I think he was just being a zealout or trying to rile people up. It is on gross income though. Don't confuse that with revenue, but gross income. Ask any in high leadership and they will tell you that. paying on net is cheating since it's not what you increased by."

I guess I am one of those confusing revenue and gross and net. It seems to me the very definition of net is what YOU increase by, not what the government or anyone else increases by. I guess I just don't have access to anyone in "high leadership" like you do, would you mind asking them for me to publish something that explains exactly what is revenue and gross and net in their eyes. Thanks.

karen | 5:35 p.m. Oct. 13, 2009

I know an optometrist who has to file bankruptcy. People need eyeglasses and not all have insurance than covers that. Many of her patients aren't paying or are paying very slowly as they've also been hard hit by this economic downturn. We just need to hunker down and ride out the storm.

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