Deseret News | Colleges' rolls outgrow budget

Reader comments
Colleges' rolls outgrow budget

Dave | 6:58 p.m. Oct. 5, 2009

I wish the Higher Ed Management would seriously consider doing what businesses do as volume increases. They put on a second shift. The fixed costs are already covered, so it is less costly for the second shift. A Professor's preparation time and effort would not be greater if he/she were to present the subject matter twice instead of once. It would only be logical and fair to provide some increase in compensation for this, but it should not be double inasmuch as the cost of preparation would remain fixed.

re: Dave | 7:53 p.m. Oct. 5, 2009

That would make sense, but there isn't any money to pay professor's to teach extra classes. Also, professors don't have extra time as time is slim already with current classes and other demands such as research, publishing, committee work, etc. Also, prep time is the only thing that doesn't have to be duplicated. Grading and office hours (time spent with students) are major aspects of a class, and that time would need to be considered as well.

As stated in the article, the school's don't get money per student, it's just a set amount. So even though there are more students, it doesn't translate to a proportional amount of more money. With the budget cuts, there's actually less money.

Rediculous | 8:18 p.m. Oct. 5, 2009

We could cut the professor's ridiculously high salaries.

Comments continue below

Anonymous | 8:45 p.m. Oct. 5, 2009

Online classes become more and more inviting when higher education chiefs decide to start raising tuition costs. Never forget that college heads are in the business of exclusive. They control more aspects of education than just education. The higher education system is archaic and outdated. Technology has liberated students from the stuffy and liberal classroom ideals. If you want English 101 get ready to pay a premium price for it if the class is even available. HIgher education chiefs can dictate with the stroke of a pen who is worthy and who is not. More and more institutions of higher learning will tighten down and become more and more selective. Monorities will be protected to appear less biased but get ready for big fee hikes.
Look around and check out all of the options available. Many institutions are offering fully recognized and accredited online degree programs. We as the consumer must be aware and we must search.

Naive Dave | 8:45 p.m. Oct. 5, 2009

Time and time again someone like Dave above makes a naive statement about how easy it is to run a school like a business.

Higher Ed has too many stakeholders to please and is at the mercy of the legislature. It simply cannot be run like a business.

Anonymous | 12:52 a.m. Oct. 6, 2009

Ridiculous high salary rates? When it takes PhD level professors to teach Graduate students, they have to be compensated, or they will go other places. Get real! They save a lot of money as it is having other students teach classes for less money, but cut salaries? PFFT! Go get an education yourself and see how much it costs, you will think differently. All education should be free to those that maintain a 3.0 or greater education, period. We are losing our place in the world in Math and Sciences because of these type of stupid, uneducated ideas.

A Faculty Member | 6:12 a.m. Oct. 6, 2009

Rediculous [sic] has a good point. We should cut the "ridiculously high salary rates" of $40k! Most starting Assistant Professors begin at that rate, unless they are lucky enough -- or in non-humanities fields -- to get paid about $50-60k. It takes about 7 years to get a real bump in pay to maybe $60-70k.

I don't know about Rediculous (by the way, your professors didn't do enough to tell you it's spelled wrong), but, as a faculty member, I love being paid so much that I actually qualify for reduced-priced lunches, medicaid, and utility assistance; not to mention having to defer my student loans because of financial hardship. We faculty members are just "rollin' in the dough!"

Not all faculty members are paid the same. Some football and basketball coaches get paid very well, as do some law, business and medical school professors. Not all faculty members are even full time. Everyone reading this article should ask a faculty member about the "business" of teaching. You'll be shocked about how much you don't know.

What's up | 6:20 a.m. Oct. 6, 2009

Dave, Education run like a business???? Are you talking about GM or Some of The Banks?? Some folks in Utah don't know a good deal when they see it. Check out other state's public ed tuition or check out what the University of Phoenix and other such "degrees for fees" cost. (Where you can BUY credit for anything)

Colleges need to prioritize | 7:10 a.m. Oct. 6, 2009

The culture of this state is that higher education is a right and not a privelege. We should be turning down students who don't make the grade. We should be eliminating majors that don't help students gain careers like a bachelors in physcology and consumer studies. BYU don't have a budget or growth problem because it has established its limit which creates a higher quality student population. I have interviewed dozens of people for employment over the years that have degrees but have absolutley no qualifications to be hired. Yesterday on the news was a list of high paying jobs available such as accountants and electrical engineering, that can't be filled because there is a shortage of qualified candidates.

Why does the state keep offering higher education to those that don't make the most out of it?

Wow | 7:58 a.m. Oct. 6, 2009

You also have to consider the structure of the institutions in the state. Some are Research I, some are teaching and some are community colleges. They cannot all be run the same way.

I agree with A Faculty Member as well--a starting average salary in the state of $45,000 is ridiculous.

To "rediculous" | 8:12 a.m. Oct. 6, 2009

I would love to move to Utah but I would have to take a $50,000 pay cut to do it. So I keep teaching at my current college. You are right "rediculous" salaries at Utah colleges are ridiculous -- ridiculously low.

To: What's up @6:20 | 9:33 a.m. Oct. 6, 2009

Degree's for fees? I have an on-line degree from Univ. of Phoenix as well as an on-line degree from a traditional "brick and mortar" and I can tell you I worked my tail off for both of them. While many in Utah turn their noses at alternative higher education bear in mind that in many extreme rural areas the nearest university campus can be two hours or more away. This is why many traditional colleges are now offering dedicated on-line degree programs, following the lead of schools like Univ. of Phoenix and others who pioneered the idea. Some traditional universities also saw the economic reality of the 21st century and changed in order to keep up. My Bachelors degree from Univ. of Phoenix is recognized by BYU, U of U, Utah State, UVU, etc… Which is more important the qualified individual with a degree from Univ. of Phoenix or an unqualified individual with a degree from Big State U? Obviously it is the qualified individual that matters most. The times are changing and hopefully Utah attitudes will change as well. Education costs have to matter more than the archaic system we have been stuck with.

Re: Prioritize | 10:38 a.m. Oct. 6, 2009

BYU is a different animal. Private schools are on a different playing field. That's a tough comparison to make. It's a cavalier statement to assume that that one aspect is what keeps BYU above the rest...assuming that it is even above the rest. Given their private status, the public doesn't know their financial situation.

Also, eliminating programs "that don't help students gain careers" is short-sighted thinking. Colleges and Universities don't need to be trade schools where students are taught a set of skills. Rather, it's a place to learn how to think. Learning to think and reason on a higher, wider level is what will ultimately allow students to have success in future endeavors.

sham! | 10:41 a.m. Oct. 6, 2009

Scholl has become just another business in this overly capitalistic country! Its lost its sights on the true meaning of learning and educating. People would be better of getting back into the ways of being an apprentice in the trades.

The Rock | 10:47 a.m. Oct. 6, 2009

Here is how to cut the cost of higher education:
1. Many professors require their students to use a textbook that the professor personally wrote. This is a clear conflict of interest. A professor should not be able to do this unless at least 3 other universities also use that book.
2. Textbook publishers revise textbooks every 2 or three years just to render all existing textbooks obsolete, eliminating competition from used textbooks. Non-recent history, math, English, etc. do not change and do not need revision in most cases.
3. An instructor is irrelevant in many classes. Students should be able to buy a reasonably priced textbook, read it, do some homework and exercises and test out of the class (does not work for all classes).
4. Study labs (math labs, history labs, English labs), study halls really, could be established and staffed with student tutors. One could study math in the math lab and get help on an as needed basis.

Some homeschooling curriculum is based on public domain texts (published prior to 1923). People print out the books from a CD and the kids learn very well. Higher education should do the same.

A Way To Save | 11:51 a.m. Oct. 6, 2009

Now might be the time to eliminate subsidized in-state tuition in Utah for illegal aliens as federal law requires. Just a thought.
Ref:
Federal Law Title 8, Chapter 14, Sec. 1623 states:

"an alien who is not lawfully present in the United States shall not be eligible on the basis of residence within a State... for any postsecondary education benefit unless a citizen or national of the United States is eligible for such a benefit."

Another faculty member | 11:53 a.m. Oct. 6, 2009

I agree with the above statements that Utah faculty are underpaid... that's why I decided to go elsewhere. At my land-grant university, I started out with a salary of $60,000 in 2002 as an Assistant Professor, and have had my salary increased 33% in 7 years. I can't complain. The only thing that has not been discussed here is that many professors must bring in funding, not only for their own salaries, but for their support technicians, lab instructors, etc. If they are successful in getting funding, universities often take 25% - 50% of that off the top for indirect costs, for no effort on their part. It requires a lot of continual effort and this year, funding opportunities are drying up, and are much more competitive than they use to be.

Anonymous | 2:32 p.m. Oct. 6, 2009

I left a Utah College for a much higher paying job in an adjacent state, and with half the teaching load. I've never been happier!

PS: Utah is a perfect example of what happens when you don't have a labor presence in higher education. People like me leave for better, higher-paying jobs.

Fake Schools | 3:02 p.m. Oct. 6, 2009

Keep telling your self that online schools will get you ahead in life. Just ask employers if they would rather have someone with a degree from a real college or one from a fake one with annoying commercials.

RE: Anonymous | 2:32 p.m | 4:41 p.m. Oct. 6, 2009

I'd be interested in understanding what you meant when you wrote this:

"Utah is a perfect example of what happens when you don't have a labor presence in higher education."

to: Fake Schools @ 3:02 | 5:29 p.m. Oct. 6, 2009

When I list my degree from University of Phoenix along side my degree from Kansas State University I have no problems from any potential employer. The fact that I earned both on-line is a point in my favor. What wows any potential employer are the qualifications of the individual. A potential employer is not going to care where you got your degree if you fit the requirements that they are looking for. The goal of higher education and the real mission of higher education is to produce qualified and educated individuals. The reality is as tuition continues to rise and the job sector changes higher education must change. Money is not always the answer. Higher education must utilize the technology tools at their disposal in order to survive. This is why traditional schools are adding on-line programs. They are trying to expand their student pool. As consumers we are no longer tied to the old system. We do not have to fall at the feet of the university masters and beg their notice. The public will not stand for outrageous tuition and fees. It is higher educations choice, change and live or keep the flawed thinking and die.

Robert Y. Valentine, PhD | 6:37 p.m. Oct. 6, 2009

Please write an article comparing the salaries of "adjunct" or "part time" faculty members at each Utah public institution. Also, please carefully research the percentage of "adjuncts" in each college within each Utah institution. Buildings are nice, but a strong, well-compensated faculty is more important. I think you will find that the compensation schedules for part-time faculty members in Utah is shocking.

Anonymous | 6:43 p.m. Oct. 6, 2009

The "University" of Phoenix is not a real school. I work in HR for a major software company and trust me, if we had to decide between a Phoenix graduate and someone who attended a traditional brick and mortar school, both with identical experience, we're going to go with the traditional degree. Real or not, the University of Phoenix has the label of being a pay for your degree type of joint.

Robert Y. Valentine, PhD | 6:44 p.m. Oct. 6, 2009

Many colleges and universities in Utah have very liberal faculty members who agitate for higher minimum wages, free health care, gay marriage, abortion on demand and other so-called "progressive" causes outside of academia. However, ask them to advocate higher pay for part-time or "adjunct" faculty members who teach in their departments for a fraction of the pay of full time faculty members and they suddenly become raging, Darwinian right-wing capitalists who turn on their heels and quickly disappear into their well-appointed tenured offices. The Marxist "new" man has the face of a 19th century robber-baron!

Anonymous | 7:26 p.m. Oct. 6, 2009

Robert, are you a full-time tenured faculty member at a Univ. in Utah? I didn't think so, so you might want to put a sock in it. At my Univ. we labor long and hard, both in the faculty senate and across campus, to get better pay for all faculty, including adjuncts. In fact, my colleagues and I have been to national conferences denouncing the exploitation of adjunct faculty, because, contrary to what you've called us--Marxist robber barons, I believe--we care deeply about how the Univ. treats adjunct faculty. To wit, the affect the quality of education at our institution, so we have a vested interest in their success.

michaelm | 7:30 p.m. Oct. 6, 2009

In defense of the online degreed people out there I don't live in UT and I can tell you I have no problems hiring U of P students nor do any of the employers I have worked for. UT has a reputation in other states as being an education snob where higher education is often required and under paid. While other college grads make it to the work force with nothing but the parchment and few marketable skills. They get jobs and spend several years learning how to work surprised they are not the boss after two weeks. Then again there are the many people I know who have worked for me with degrees in all kinds of things unrelated to what they studied. From my CPA friend who is a cook to my Marketing friend who practices retail law. How about my employee with a medical and history education degrees who does copy writing for catalogs. I don't work in my degree either. It's less of a big deal in other places. And where many colleges are little more than 4 years of alcohol binges many employers couldn't care less about your pedigree.

l | 10:54 p.m. Oct. 6, 2009

Rock,

check out Western Governors University

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