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3 principles for looking at Lehi's DNA
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Anonymous | 5:18 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
Isn't this Sorenson Group, closely associated with Brigham Young
University? This fact needs to be disclosed so the reader knows where biases
lie. It seems that authorities in the field don't seem to agree with DNA
evidence. It seems to be a pretty inexact science.
You watch | 6:07 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
Anti-Mormons will say Ha Ha, there is no evidence of Hebrew DNA in America!
Then, when some is found they will quickly forget how important that was to
them. Will they then believe? No. They will then say Ha Ha, the Hebrew DNA is in
the wrong place. Or they will say Ha Ha, the Hebrew DNA was from the wrong sort
of Hebrew. Or they will say Ha Ha, the Hebrew DNA was from space aliens who
injected it into Native Americans as part of a cosmic experiment and so it has
nothing to do with the Book of Mormon. The Anti-Mormon arguments have nothing to
do with science and everything to do with their preconceived conclusions.
Comments continue below
kc mormon | 7:31 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
To You watch
This has already happened and the just ignore it. Some Hebrew markers have been found in small numbers in both living groups and Pre-Columbian DNA. The X Haplotype is one such case. The mutation rate comes from the MEd. NOt north east Asia yet they claim it has just not been found there yet or ignore the mutation rate and say well x has been found in Asia skiping the fact that it is a land locked community with no trace between them and the BEaring Sea. Then you also have 1C which is Y DNA and is a Hebrew marker. It too has been found in the Americas but just gets ignored. When you bring these up they then go to langiage and say well no proof in language. But they ignore work done by an LDS Scholor and confirmed by a Non LDS Scholor that finds Egyption words somewhat modified in Uto-Aztecan languages. These modifications are sim-ply changing a vowel or two. Then they ignore the BAt creek stone found in a Smithsonian dig in the 1880s that most scholors now say is palio HEbrew not discoverd untile the Dead Sea scrolls.
This has already happened and the just ignore it. Some Hebrew markers have been found in small numbers in both living groups and Pre-Columbian DNA. The X Haplotype is one such case. The mutation rate comes from the MEd. NOt north east Asia yet they claim it has just not been found there yet or ignore the mutation rate and say well x has been found in Asia skiping the fact that it is a land locked community with no trace between them and the BEaring Sea. Then you also have 1C which is Y DNA and is a Hebrew marker. It too has been found in the Americas but just gets ignored. When you bring these up they then go to langiage and say well no proof in language. But they ignore work done by an LDS Scholor and confirmed by a Non LDS Scholor that finds Egyption words somewhat modified in Uto-Aztecan languages. These modifications are sim-ply changing a vowel or two. Then they ignore the BAt creek stone found in a Smithsonian dig in the 1880s that most scholors now say is palio HEbrew not discoverd untile the Dead Sea scrolls.
OJ | 7:32 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
Give it a rest already. Nobody is buying this non-sense.
OC | 8:03 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
Why don't we excavate Zelph's grave and test his DNA?
OC | 8:15 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
Was this presented as an independent study? The Sorensen Group is anything but
independent and unbiased.
kc mormon | 8:28 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
to You watch
Another interesting fact that they overlook is blood type. MOngoloids as prodominantly type B blood. Now if as the ANti-Mormons say ALL NAtive AMericans are decendid from the Mongoloids then you find prodominantly B blood type in Native Americans, after all the child inhearits his bllod type from his parents. However instead of the predominant blood type of the Native Americans being b it is infact O. Some NAtive American groups for example are almost exclusively typo O Myan 98, Peru indians 100, NAvajo 73 (with 0 B), Bororo Brazil 11. While not PRoof for the Book of Mormon it is intersting to note that Jews aslo have a higher type O than B ratio German Jews 42 Type O 12 Type B, Jews Poland 33 Type O 18 Type B,
Another interesting fact that they overlook is blood type. MOngoloids as prodominantly type B blood. Now if as the ANti-Mormons say ALL NAtive AMericans are decendid from the Mongoloids then you find prodominantly B blood type in Native Americans, after all the child inhearits his bllod type from his parents. However instead of the predominant blood type of the Native Americans being b it is infact O. Some NAtive American groups for example are almost exclusively typo O Myan 98, Peru indians 100, NAvajo 73 (with 0 B), Bororo Brazil 11. While not PRoof for the Book of Mormon it is intersting to note that Jews aslo have a higher type O than B ratio German Jews 42 Type O 12 Type B, Jews Poland 33 Type O 18 Type B,
Anonymous | 8:39 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
I thought the truth was clear, straight forward and simple. At least that was
what I was taught in Sunday School. All the defenses the Church is throwing up
regarding DNA is giving me a headache. Why is the Church spending millions and
millions of my tithing dollars a year trying find ways to defend DNA?
Not Buying It | 8:49 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
That is the most outlandish explanation I have yet heard. Is there another part
to this story about selling the Brooklyn Bridge?
I was born at night, but not last night.
I was born at night, but not last night.
Eichendorff | 8:57 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
How do you know how much the Church is "spending" defending
anti-Mormon DNA accusations? Even if the Church as an institution is doing this,
which is far from proven, how do you know it's coming from tithing
funds?
The truth IS clear, straightforward, and simple. It's the web of lies and deceit from the anti-Mormons that's the problem.
The truth IS clear, straightforward, and simple. It's the web of lies and deceit from the anti-Mormons that's the problem.
Anonymous | 8:58 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
Is this an apologist group. What are leading scientists in the field of DNA
studies saying. It is confusing.
Jay | 9:20 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
LOL. You are wasting your time on science. The church has given up on
scientific reasoning with regard to Joseph's claims, and it has left a mess
of excommunicated researchers that have reached conclusions contrary to the
claims of the church.
Now, even the apologists admit that the ONLY way to conclude the Book of Mormon to be a true and literal book is through supernatural means.
Now, even the apologists admit that the ONLY way to conclude the Book of Mormon to be a true and literal book is through supernatural means.
Anonymous | 9:21 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
Trust your eyes. If you don't believe in DNA evidence simply trust your
eyes. Compare the bone structure of Native Americans with Asians then to
Hebrews and tell me which is more similar.
Geography determines history | 9:22 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
re: Levi | 2:14 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009 & Anonymous | 8:39 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
Guilt & Justification?
re: kc mormon | 8:28 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
I'm type O negative & could be the poster child for someone of Anglo-Saxon/Nordic/Teutonic lineage. If memeroy serves; type O blood is common among the Irish & Basques.
I'm really not worried about the whole DNA spin.
Here is what gets me; Why travel down the Arabian peninsula to leave Jerusalem? Why not leave right from the Mediterranean?
There is a theory that the Kingdom of Asir (by Mecca) is where all the Old Testament actually took place. Definitely sheds light on my skepticism & makes the whole "rivalry" between all 3 Abrahamic religions plausible.
Guilt & Justification?
re: kc mormon | 8:28 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
I'm type O negative & could be the poster child for someone of Anglo-Saxon/Nordic/Teutonic lineage. If memeroy serves; type O blood is common among the Irish & Basques.
I'm really not worried about the whole DNA spin.
Here is what gets me; Why travel down the Arabian peninsula to leave Jerusalem? Why not leave right from the Mediterranean?
There is a theory that the Kingdom of Asir (by Mecca) is where all the Old Testament actually took place. Definitely sheds light on my skepticism & makes the whole "rivalry" between all 3 Abrahamic religions plausible.
Reliable?? | 9:22 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
Henry Louis Gates and Oprah Winfrey were on a PBS special using DNA testing to
find their roots. Interestingly they could trace Oprah Winfrey's roots to
Africa, but Henry Louis Gates maternal (mitochondiral DNA) and paternal (Y
chromosome) roots were traced to his European ancestors. Within a few hundred
years since Henry Louis Gates's african heritage came to the US and his
african DNA is already lost???
kc mormon | 9:26 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
For those who claim that the Sorenson Group is just too bias to listen to let me
quote from them
"No population or geographic region has been identified to date, in which haplogroup X and its major subhaplogroups are found at both high frequency and high diversity, which could provide a potential clue as to their geographic origin. Here we suggest that the Druze population of northern Israel may represent just such a population."
I will post the next part seperatly for size restraints
"No population or geographic region has been identified to date, in which haplogroup X and its major subhaplogroups are found at both high frequency and high diversity, which could provide a potential clue as to their geographic origin. Here we suggest that the Druze population of northern Israel may represent just such a population."
I will post the next part seperatly for size restraints
kc mormon | 9:30 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
The rest of the Sorenson Groups statement
"Our paper in Current Biology does not discuss (and does not dismiss) a potential ancient origin for haplogroup X in the ancient Near East, as proposed by Shlush and Reidla (and their co-authors, including important names in population genetics such as Michael Hammer, Doron Behar, Toomas Kivisild, Richard Villems, Antonio Torroni, Alessandro Achilli, etc.), but we emphasize how this haplogroup marked a separate migratory event that characterized the history of Native American populations. Apart from anyone who believes haplogroup X to be the ultimate proof marking the arrival of Lehi’s group to the Americas (something that neither Woodward, nor myself advocate), the bottom line is that there is still much to research about the origin and dispersal of this and the other pre-Columbian lineages."
NOtice that they point out that much more work must be done to understand this work rather than just saying here is the somkeing gun for the Book of MOrmon. How dare they make such an unbiased statement as more needs to be done.
"Our paper in Current Biology does not discuss (and does not dismiss) a potential ancient origin for haplogroup X in the ancient Near East, as proposed by Shlush and Reidla (and their co-authors, including important names in population genetics such as Michael Hammer, Doron Behar, Toomas Kivisild, Richard Villems, Antonio Torroni, Alessandro Achilli, etc.), but we emphasize how this haplogroup marked a separate migratory event that characterized the history of Native American populations. Apart from anyone who believes haplogroup X to be the ultimate proof marking the arrival of Lehi’s group to the Americas (something that neither Woodward, nor myself advocate), the bottom line is that there is still much to research about the origin and dispersal of this and the other pre-Columbian lineages."
NOtice that they point out that much more work must be done to understand this work rather than just saying here is the somkeing gun for the Book of MOrmon. How dare they make such an unbiased statement as more needs to be done.
Bob | 9:39 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
This DNA thing must really be causing problems for the Church or they
wouldn't be harping on this so much and trying to discredit science!
@kc mormon | 9:57 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
Your statistics are interesting. Please provide your sources. If Israeli blood
is mainly A pos. how does that fit in? Also, why the selective pushing of
science - blood or Mitochondrial DNA fingerprinting? Please describe how this
unique tracing of genetic informaion from the mother's side is bogus?
While your at it, compare the physical characteristics - bone structure,
complexion, skin folds (particularly around the eyes)between Asians and Native
Americans then with Middle Easterners. Also, please provide the boat loads of
archeolgical evidence - metals, bones and other artifacts - found at the Hill of
Cumorah. And if that is not enough, compare Joseph Smith's liguistic
translations in the Book of Abraham with actual Egyptian cuneiform (brought to
us by the Rosetta Stone). There's allot of science out there to sift
through.
A Man's Perspective | 9:59 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
The debate is about what is written in the Book of Mormon, NOT about DNA. See
what Simon Southerton, ex-Mormon critic and author of the book "Losing A
Lost Tribe" (the book that brought about these issues) says:
"If a small group of Israelites entered such a massive native population (several millions) it would be very, very hard to detect their genes... I also agree ... that the debate should be about the theology."
"If a small group of Israelites entered such a massive native population (several millions) it would be very, very hard to detect their genes... I also agree ... that the debate should be about the theology."
kc mormon | 10:10 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
To Geography determines history
It is a good question as to why travel east and just leave from Jerusalem. First Jerusalem is not a costal city so you would have to go either east or west. As the Book of MOrmon tells us the people were persecuting the prophets at the time so staying in the area how easy would it have been for a group who has never built a boat to build a ship? Interestingly this part of the Book of Mormon was often used as the biggest proof of fraud. It was well known that nothing discribed in the account existed. Then in recent years everything mentioned in the treck has been found. From the burrial site to a perect location for Bountiful in Oman with a river that flows yearround, mountains, trees, ore. It all fits perfect. So what are the odds that a person born in Vermont in 1805 could give a perfect detailed disacription accrossed a land he has never visited?
It is a good question as to why travel east and just leave from Jerusalem. First Jerusalem is not a costal city so you would have to go either east or west. As the Book of MOrmon tells us the people were persecuting the prophets at the time so staying in the area how easy would it have been for a group who has never built a boat to build a ship? Interestingly this part of the Book of Mormon was often used as the biggest proof of fraud. It was well known that nothing discribed in the account existed. Then in recent years everything mentioned in the treck has been found. From the burrial site to a perect location for Bountiful in Oman with a river that flows yearround, mountains, trees, ore. It all fits perfect. So what are the odds that a person born in Vermont in 1805 could give a perfect detailed disacription accrossed a land he has never visited?
isnt it just a coincidence | 10:12 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
that even though this article gives a plausable explanation as to why there is
close to no hebrew DNA found, it offers no light as to why the vast majority of
the DNA traces back to siberia, supporting the theory that Native Americans
crossed on the Bering straight all those years ago.
Mormon Scholar | 10:19 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
DNA changes:
"I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people and they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people....
For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos;...The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.
At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl, was several shades lighter than her parents.There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated(Spencer W. Kimball, Improvement Era, December 1960. pages 922-23)
"I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people and they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people....
For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos;...The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.
At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl, was several shades lighter than her parents.There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated(Spencer W. Kimball, Improvement Era, December 1960. pages 922-23)
Wonder Why | 10:27 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
I wonder why the anti's even post here! It gets so old reading there
hate.
Why not just go away and let the LDS enjoy THEIR own newspaper in peace?
I for one enjoyed this article and look forward to reading the ones that are coming
Thank You DN
PS.. DN
why are so many "abusive,offensive" cmments let through on these comments. I really wish that this could be a "G" rated site rather then a PG-13 site.
Why not just go away and let the LDS enjoy THEIR own newspaper in peace?
I for one enjoyed this article and look forward to reading the ones that are coming
Thank You DN
PS.. DN
why are so many "abusive,offensive" cmments let through on these comments. I really wish that this could be a "G" rated site rather then a PG-13 site.
Richard | 10:32 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
Wow, now they are taking it to the next level going from the inane to the
insane. Mormons will rationalize anything and everything to defend their
questionable gospels. Good Luck, stay with it and you will be back to the flat
earth believe.
Bill Bixby | 10:39 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
To A Man's Perspective,
As soon as a single Mormon makes an intelligent comment, then you can expect to see more intelligent comments by "the Anti-Mormons".
Mormons and Anti-Mormons. Hmmm. Is this the kind of simple-minded, black/white thinking that comes from reading the Book of Mormon every day since you were a child? Doesn't sound healthy.
No matter what haplogroup X research shows, it cannot explain why Joseph Smith and all of his successors down through Spencer Kimball thought and taught that ALL Native Americans are descendants of Lehi!
The fact that the Church is making such a big deal out of this shows it is hurting them. They wouldn't have changed the Introduction to the Book of Mormon if it wasn't a significant problem.
As soon as a single Mormon makes an intelligent comment, then you can expect to see more intelligent comments by "the Anti-Mormons".
Mormons and Anti-Mormons. Hmmm. Is this the kind of simple-minded, black/white thinking that comes from reading the Book of Mormon every day since you were a child? Doesn't sound healthy.
No matter what haplogroup X research shows, it cannot explain why Joseph Smith and all of his successors down through Spencer Kimball thought and taught that ALL Native Americans are descendants of Lehi!
The fact that the Church is making such a big deal out of this shows it is hurting them. They wouldn't have changed the Introduction to the Book of Mormon if it wasn't a significant problem.
Dorothy | 10:40 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
Maybe if we just all pray about it (or click our ruby slippers together) we will
get to the bottom of this. It must be true! It Must be true! It MUST be true!
Fredd | 10:41 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
So is it safe to assume that the only way the lack of DNA can be explained is to
abandon the belief the America's were unpopulated when Lehi arrived? Does
that create a contradiction with previous prophets teachings? Is the only way
the BOM is true now the Limited Geography Theory?
G determines H | 11:07 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
re: kc mormon | 10:10 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
I never said it was fraudulent just interesting. The sea is closer to Jerusalem but there is no way you could have an oasis in the Levant.
//So what are the odds that a person born in Vermont in 1805 could give a perfect detailed disacription accrossed a land he has never visited?//
Odds? I'm not a Vegas bookie. However, I can say that there are other means to describe the Southern Arabian Peninsula.
Other books? Secret Masonic Stuff? A really good imagination? JS was a really good guesser?
As for DNA, I read that the Zuni did have some commonalities w/ Middle eastern genetics whereas Navajos don't.
Call it Faith ir apathy; I'm willing to conceded there is alot I don't know. Hopefully, Some day it will be revealed until then all I can do is do better today than I did yesterday.
I never said it was fraudulent just interesting. The sea is closer to Jerusalem but there is no way you could have an oasis in the Levant.
//So what are the odds that a person born in Vermont in 1805 could give a perfect detailed disacription accrossed a land he has never visited?//
Odds? I'm not a Vegas bookie. However, I can say that there are other means to describe the Southern Arabian Peninsula.
Other books? Secret Masonic Stuff? A really good imagination? JS was a really good guesser?
As for DNA, I read that the Zuni did have some commonalities w/ Middle eastern genetics whereas Navajos don't.
Call it Faith ir apathy; I'm willing to conceded there is alot I don't know. Hopefully, Some day it will be revealed until then all I can do is do better today than I did yesterday.
Bender Rodriguez | 11:12 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
re: A Man's Perspective | 9:28 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
//I'd really like to see the anti-Mormons make some intelligent comments, and discuss the issues. Maybe we could all learn something if the issues were discussed, rather than a bunch of one-liners that lack substance.//
A religious type criticizing "secular" types for being less than intelligent. I'm impressed you are not falling back on the whole emotional methods i.e crying like Glenn Beck method or trotting out the "we just need to have faith"
2 thoughts; 1) Why did God give us brains if he did not want us to use them? 2) There is at least an ounce of truth in every pound of saracasm
//I'd really like to see the anti-Mormons make some intelligent comments, and discuss the issues. Maybe we could all learn something if the issues were discussed, rather than a bunch of one-liners that lack substance.//
A religious type criticizing "secular" types for being less than intelligent. I'm impressed you are not falling back on the whole emotional methods i.e crying like Glenn Beck method or trotting out the "we just need to have faith"
2 thoughts; 1) Why did God give us brains if he did not want us to use them? 2) There is at least an ounce of truth in every pound of saracasm
Anonymous | 11:17 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
I am still waiting for the History Channel to run a story on mormonism. Until
then I don't think you will be taken seriously in any academic or science
communities.
OC | 11:20 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
Whose comments were PG-13 rated? what a strange comment to make
Re: KC mormon | 11:24 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
Are you John Pack Lambert in disguise?
Roy Rogers McFreely | 11:28 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
re: Wonder Why | 10:27 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
Wow. Persecution complex & getting defensively as well as unjustifiably territorial.
Last I checked, the internet is a public forum. If The DN wants to make Church news subscriber only that is their (note the spelling) perogative. Until then...
Wow. Persecution complex & getting defensively as well as unjustifiably territorial.
Last I checked, the internet is a public forum. If The DN wants to make Church news subscriber only that is their (note the spelling) perogative. Until then...
Re: wonder why | 11:29 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
What defines an 'anti' in your opiion? It would be nice to know what
you mean before the righteous open there mouth and spew hate!
KC mormon | 11:35 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
@kc mormon | 9:57 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
Your request would require too many posts to cover everything you asked for. However just a few answers The supposed Joseph Smith translation work on the Book of Abraham you mentioned is not actualy JOseph Smiths but others who were around Joseph trying to make sence of what Joseph had. What Joseph had was infact much more than the hand full of fragments we have today. INterestingly JOseph mentioned that the scrolls contained copies of the book of the dead and the book of breathing. It just so happens that that is what the fragments we have today are. So the fragments rather than proving Joseph wrong prove him right. As for the DNA that has been shown many times, go back a few days and you will find another article on the Book of Mormon and DNA your questions are all answerd there.
Your request would require too many posts to cover everything you asked for. However just a few answers The supposed Joseph Smith translation work on the Book of Abraham you mentioned is not actualy JOseph Smiths but others who were around Joseph trying to make sence of what Joseph had. What Joseph had was infact much more than the hand full of fragments we have today. INterestingly JOseph mentioned that the scrolls contained copies of the book of the dead and the book of breathing. It just so happens that that is what the fragments we have today are. So the fragments rather than proving Joseph wrong prove him right. As for the DNA that has been shown many times, go back a few days and you will find another article on the Book of Mormon and DNA your questions are all answerd there.
A Man's Perspective | 11:54 a.m. Oct. 2, 2009
Bill Bixby,
I have seen plenty of intelligent arguments by both sides. Just rarely on these comment boards, like comments from "Dorothy 10:40" are typical.
Many Church leaders thought that ALL native Americans are descendants of Lehi. We now that that they are AMONG the descendants. This is not what I call a huge deal. Not in the least. This is how we, including prophets learn. Of course, every Mormon hater pounds their chest, announcing the colossal victory, etc. That is where the big deal comes from - the extreme over-exaggeration by Mormon-haters who think they have proved once and for all about their theories. Simple explanations prove otherwise (like a one-word change in the BOM introduction - "principal" to "among").
I am being completely, totally honest when I say the LDS Church has not made this issue the slightest on its radar. These few articles are only a very few the Church has published. I have yet to hear a Sacrament talk, a Sunday School lesson, nor a General Conference talk about these issues. Yet you all say it is a "big deal".
Really, there are more difficult issues for Mormon apologists to address.
I have seen plenty of intelligent arguments by both sides. Just rarely on these comment boards, like comments from "Dorothy 10:40" are typical.
Many Church leaders thought that ALL native Americans are descendants of Lehi. We now that that they are AMONG the descendants. This is not what I call a huge deal. Not in the least. This is how we, including prophets learn. Of course, every Mormon hater pounds their chest, announcing the colossal victory, etc. That is where the big deal comes from - the extreme over-exaggeration by Mormon-haters who think they have proved once and for all about their theories. Simple explanations prove otherwise (like a one-word change in the BOM introduction - "principal" to "among").
I am being completely, totally honest when I say the LDS Church has not made this issue the slightest on its radar. These few articles are only a very few the Church has published. I have yet to hear a Sacrament talk, a Sunday School lesson, nor a General Conference talk about these issues. Yet you all say it is a "big deal".
Really, there are more difficult issues for Mormon apologists to address.
kc mormon | 12:09 p.m. Oct. 2, 2009
To Bill Bixby
You have two problems with your post. First is that you are discounting the very thing you are looking for from the LDS. That is proof that people other than Asians are ancesters of the NAtive Americans. Hapolgorup X gives you that even going as far as to suggest (not prove) that Middle Eastern sources in a Pre-Columbian setting added to the Native American DNA mix. As for LDS leaders going back to Joseph saying ALL Native Americans go back to Lehi if the Book of MOrmon is just a hoax by Joseph that proves your point wrong for it says in it that others came here. Joseph even said that he believed a story that had been told to him that one group of Natives in the area of modern day Mexico came to the Americas around the time of Moses. Now that would put JOseph as saying that others came here before Lehi. It is also interesting that the man who wrote the introduction to the Book of Mormon in 1981 said in 1979 that the American Indian were "of mixed blood and origen". He listed Asia as part of that mix.
You have two problems with your post. First is that you are discounting the very thing you are looking for from the LDS. That is proof that people other than Asians are ancesters of the NAtive Americans. Hapolgorup X gives you that even going as far as to suggest (not prove) that Middle Eastern sources in a Pre-Columbian setting added to the Native American DNA mix. As for LDS leaders going back to Joseph saying ALL Native Americans go back to Lehi if the Book of MOrmon is just a hoax by Joseph that proves your point wrong for it says in it that others came here. Joseph even said that he believed a story that had been told to him that one group of Natives in the area of modern day Mexico came to the Americas around the time of Moses. Now that would put JOseph as saying that others came here before Lehi. It is also interesting that the man who wrote the introduction to the Book of Mormon in 1981 said in 1979 that the American Indian were "of mixed blood and origen". He listed Asia as part of that mix.
Fredd | 12:17 p.m. Oct. 2, 2009
Mormonism, compared to other faiths, has the difficulty of newness to overcome.
Biblical claims are clouded by time. So various markers, Pharoah's names,
Pilate's name, locations, can be verified and lend credence but don't
prove the bible. The BOM and its method of discovery are new and so it can be
held to closer scrutiny. You claim your current prophets speak for God so we
have statements from modern times that are absolutely substantiated as their
statements. yet we can prove what they said is not true (all indians are
Lammanites, or at least the huge vast majority). This is perhap's why
Mormons feel they are unfairly singled out. The bible and koran have to be
taken with faith, there is no way to prove/disprove their claims. Especially if
you accept certain passages could have been parables. But your prohets never
taught the BOM was parables, they taught it was literal (as did main stream
Christians of 1830).
kc mormon | 12:22 p.m. Oct. 2, 2009
To G determines H
For Joseph you can rule out other books. First he was known by all who commented on him (both in his favor and against him) as not being well read. He could have taken books from the Palmyra library but no records exist to show he did. records do exist to show others in the area did not the SMiths. Also books of the time reported that the area he mentioned was dry and no such are existed. So books are out. As for Masonic stuff he was not a MAson until NAuvoo in the 1840s so he would not have had masonic info. So MAsonic stuff is out. For Imagination I have been to the Arabian PEninsula and could not give as good a discription with names that after 150 years would be found. As for guessing one hit I would grant you but not a burrial place, a river, a valley, mountains, ore all in the very location. It is too much for a good guess. BUt if a person wants to not believe they will not. Just look at comments about Haplogroup X.
For Joseph you can rule out other books. First he was known by all who commented on him (both in his favor and against him) as not being well read. He could have taken books from the Palmyra library but no records exist to show he did. records do exist to show others in the area did not the SMiths. Also books of the time reported that the area he mentioned was dry and no such are existed. So books are out. As for Masonic stuff he was not a MAson until NAuvoo in the 1840s so he would not have had masonic info. So MAsonic stuff is out. For Imagination I have been to the Arabian PEninsula and could not give as good a discription with names that after 150 years would be found. As for guessing one hit I would grant you but not a burrial place, a river, a valley, mountains, ore all in the very location. It is too much for a good guess. BUt if a person wants to not believe they will not. Just look at comments about Haplogroup X.
Bill | 12:23 p.m. Oct. 2, 2009
I have said it time and time again. DNA will never disprove or prove the Book
of Mormon. It is to be taken on faith and faith alone. If God really wanted to
prove the Book of Mormon true, he would have left the GOLDEN Plates with Joseph
Smith. He didn't. The plates were returned to Moroni, and placed in a
vault where there are still thousands of volumes of scripture not yet revealed.
The Lord has stated that all we need is the Bible and the Book of Mormon
currently to prove the divinity of Jesus Christ.
This is all that is necessary. Since, Joseph Smith through President Monson it has been said that the Lamanites are Native Americans. whether they be in South America or North really doesn't matter. It is also true that most eskimos appear to be related to those in Russia or Siberia. Proof is in the asking and the Holy Ghost.
The Book of Mormon is true and that is all I need to know that Joseph Smith was and is a Prophet as is Thomas S Monson.
This is all that is necessary. Since, Joseph Smith through President Monson it has been said that the Lamanites are Native Americans. whether they be in South America or North really doesn't matter. It is also true that most eskimos appear to be related to those in Russia or Siberia. Proof is in the asking and the Holy Ghost.
The Book of Mormon is true and that is all I need to know that Joseph Smith was and is a Prophet as is Thomas S Monson.
I'm confused | 12:30 p.m. Oct. 2, 2009
If DNA is true, then evolution is true. Oddly, most LDS don't believe in
evolution per a number of questionnaires.
Wonder Why | 12:33 p.m. Oct. 2, 2009
OK.. Alright so I was out of line.. I am sorry
But.. it gets so tireing to get on these comments to read what others have to say and 3/4 of it is negative about the church.
Why... what is the purpose? Do you just enjoy being negative and hurting other people? Discussions I have no problem with.. but most of these are not "discussions" they are just all out persecution and slam downs.
I have never - and never would I even think of going onto some other religious newspaper and saying the bigoted and rude things that get put on this one. This rudeness makes no sense to me. Discussion fine- rudeness no!
But.. it gets so tireing to get on these comments to read what others have to say and 3/4 of it is negative about the church.
Why... what is the purpose? Do you just enjoy being negative and hurting other people? Discussions I have no problem with.. but most of these are not "discussions" they are just all out persecution and slam downs.
I have never - and never would I even think of going onto some other religious newspaper and saying the bigoted and rude things that get put on this one. This rudeness makes no sense to me. Discussion fine- rudeness no!
The Truth | 12:40 p.m. Oct. 2, 2009
“So far, DNA research has lent no support to the traditional Mormon
beliefs about the origins of Native Americans. Instead, genetic data have
confirmed that migrations from Asia are the primary source of American Indian
origins... While DNA shows that ultimately all human populations are closely
related, to date no intimate genetic link has been found between ancient
Israelites and indigenous Americans, much less within the time frame suggested
in the Book of Mormon."
- Thomas Murphy, Mormon anthropologist,
- Thomas Murphy, Mormon anthropologist,
The Truth part II | 12:41 p.m. Oct. 2, 2009
[Michael Crawford's] "work shows that Amerisraelite Lamanites could
not possibly have been the ancestors of the American Indians,' as claimed
in the current introduction to the Book of Mormon.... [Oxford geneticist Bryan
Sykes and Russian geneticist Miroslav Derenko] "have substantiated
Crawford's conclusion through agreement that ‘the Indian gene pool is
Siberian, not Middle Eastern.'"
- Thomas Murphy, Mormon anthropologist
- Thomas Murphy, Mormon anthropologist
part III | 12:42 p.m. Oct. 2, 2009
"Genetic research, particularly that using mitochondrial and Y chromosome
markers, provide quite emphatic refutation of any such relationship between Jews
and Native Americans."
- Dr. David Glenn Smith, U.C.-Davis molecular anthropologist
- Dr. David Glenn Smith, U.C.-Davis molecular anthropologist
Anonymous | 12:42 p.m. Oct. 2, 2009
All you anti-mormon posters out there remind me of a guy in the New Testament
who got after the Jews for persecuting the followers of Christ. He told them to
let them be, if it is of man then it will self destruct, but, if it is of God
then you are fighting against Him, and you will only hurt yourself.
So all you people who think mormonism is a funny and silly religion, why fight against it. It isn't authentic, it will destroy itself, man made things always do. But if it really is the Church of Jesus Christ and He is standing at the head of it, then you are only hurting yourself.
By you trying to fight against it tells me more of the truthfulness of mormonism than some DNA claim. Someday the truth will be known, just have patience.
So all you people who think mormonism is a funny and silly religion, why fight against it. It isn't authentic, it will destroy itself, man made things always do. But if it really is the Church of Jesus Christ and He is standing at the head of it, then you are only hurting yourself.
By you trying to fight against it tells me more of the truthfulness of mormonism than some DNA claim. Someday the truth will be known, just have patience.
Anonymous | 12:43 p.m. Oct. 2, 2009
"There has been no evidence considered by the mainstream scientific
community that would indicate a Middle East origin, or any other source of
origin, for the majority of contemporary Native Americans."
- Jeffrey Meldrum and Trent D. Stephens, "Who are the Children of Lehi," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, v. 12, no. 1, 2003, p. 42
- Jeffrey Meldrum and Trent D. Stephens, "Who are the Children of Lehi," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, v. 12, no. 1, 2003, p. 42
Weezer | 12:44 p.m. Oct. 2, 2009
"The sacred writings of many faiths make claims that might not stand up to
scientific tests. But most faiths avoid conflict with scholarship either because
their claims relate to events too far in the past to be tested or because they
have reinterpreted their scriptural claims as metaphors, rather than assertions
of literal fact.
"For devout Mormons, however, neither of those defenses is available. The Book of Mormon, made public by Joseph Smith in 1830, is a cornerstone of church doctrine and is taken literally by the faithful. It teaches, among other things, that many American Indians are descendants of ancient Israelites who came to this continent 600 years before Christ -- a time period well within the reach of modern archeology and genetics."
- William Lobdell and Larry B. Stammer, "Mormon Scientist, Church Clash Over DNA Test; Anthropologist may be ousted for questioning teachings about Native American ancestry," Los Angeles Times, December 8, 2002
"For devout Mormons, however, neither of those defenses is available. The Book of Mormon, made public by Joseph Smith in 1830, is a cornerstone of church doctrine and is taken literally by the faithful. It teaches, among other things, that many American Indians are descendants of ancient Israelites who came to this continent 600 years before Christ -- a time period well within the reach of modern archeology and genetics."
- William Lobdell and Larry B. Stammer, "Mormon Scientist, Church Clash Over DNA Test; Anthropologist may be ousted for questioning teachings about Native American ancestry," Los Angeles Times, December 8, 2002
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